The "good guys" made twi special......but, the "good guys" also facilitated THE EVIL AT THE TOP. Some of us witnessed and brought scores of new people to twi........only to find out that, later, many of these people were overcome by hurt, pain, and destruction. No more, thank you.
skyrider
Yeah Skyrider, Wierwille and LCM could have never succeded had they not had the Good Guys to hide behind...and I count myself, and most of us here in that catagory of selfless duolos
If VPW had simply jumped out in the beginning and said *BOO! I am a drunken, lascivious, perverted old man who is a serial adulterer and rapist. You will have to protect your teenaged daughters from me and those I have taught, You will will suffer deprivation, loss of family and friends, broken marriages, possibly be required to abort your inconvenient babies, cast your living children to the streets at the capricious whims of your leaders...you will devote your time, your resources, your youth for a decade or more... when you are tired of the bullying, degradation, and humiliation....when every last ounce of usefullness is wrung out of you, and you are exhausted as a resource......you will then be cast aside like so much garbage*
Well I guess that we would have politely declined.
Unfortunately..none of that info was in the fine print when we signed the green cards :(
I take responsibility. I finally woke up and walked away. I was terrified of what the devil would be able to do to me, but I was already living a life that had no joy, so I made the decision to leave. I am responsible for that active process of challenging 2 decades of brainwashing and leaving EVEN THOUGH I WAS AFRAID FOR MY FAMILY'S LIFE.
I have gotten over a lot of it, but I'm still angry to a certain degree at the injustice and cruelty of the Way government. they lied. it was not all about teaching people the word and helping them. ultimately it was about stroking the egos and filling the bellies of an elite echelon of narcissists. the bible was just the vehicle by which the true objective was obtained.
Nicole, that was quite some post. I agree with you. I think most people went into the Ministry and Corps with good intentions and with their hearts in the right place. Love you. Edi
Yeah Skyrider, Wierwille and LCM could have never succeded had they not had the Good Guys to hide behind...and I count myself, and most of us here in that catagory of selfless duolos
That's why I can't trust any organization on it's face value..
"oh, just get to know your leaders.."
I don't know if you really can.. loy, vic et al managed to hide behind an elaborate facade..
too easy for "those kind" to hide in an organization, when it is sufficiently large, or the "members" sufficiently trusting. Maybe that's what enables them.. to this day, some posters here still insist on giving these lowlife some kind of benefit of the doubt..
I don't blame the people who were in it to do some good. Those who were aware of some of the abuse spoke up. I think the real coverup was a lot closer to the top. "Men" with conscience seared with a hot iron.
gonna run a scam, I guess you need to find, or make a few goons..
I think 99.9% of the people in TWI were good. I think 95% of people's intentions were good.
I think VPW had all of the best intentions when he set out to discover the truth of God's Word. Yet, plagarism and adultery became areas of disobedience. He took some of his teachings to be equivalent to God's Word and never bothered checking to see if they were actually accurate. Did that make him EVIL? No, I don't believe so.
I think LCM came into TWI with all the best intentions and I believe he served God to the best of his ability until he became the Prez and pride overtook him. It wasn't so much the acts of adultery that led him to his disobedience toward God, but pride. Pride led him into a narcisstic mentally that caused him to inflict pain and suffering on many, many believers.
The Way Corps became the way all and be all for many TWI believers. Many people erroneously thought that being a Way Corp made them a better believer. Thus, way too many people joined the Corps. Then, way too many people tried to imitate LCM by dominating and domineering others. For most of the Corps, it wasn't their fault, it was simply the direction they were being pulled into.
Did most of the people in TWI attempt to obey God and do his will? Yes. Did most of the people in TWI love God and love others with God's love? Yes. Were there a few that didn't? Well, you find a few rotten apples in every bunch.
I think 99.9% of the people in TWI were good. I think 95% of people's intentions were good.
I wouldn't put the numbers QUITE so high, but I'd say most of the people and intentions were good.
I think VPW had all of the best intentions when he set out to discover the truth of God's Word. Yet, plagarism and adultery became areas of disobedience. He took some of his teachings to be equivalent to God's Word and never bothered checking to see if they were actually accurate. Did that make him EVIL? No, I don't believe so.
The thing is, if his sole intention was to discover truth, his approach would have been different.
According to Uncle Harry, vpw was never seen as a kid to be devout.
According to the locals, his personality was completely irreverent and disrespectful.
He went to school to study-HOMILETICS, not Bible languages, or anything for DISCOVERING TRUTH.
He remained deficient in understanding what he could- how much time did he put into working
what was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example? It was available for almost his entire
career...
He himself chafed when he had to answer to ANYONE, and his response (per "Born Again to Serve")
to supposedly hearing from God was that "everyone would listen to me".
Doesn't sound very devout to me...
When he got ahold of something useful for Bible students, he slapped his name on it pretty quickly,
and made a point of doing so as completely as possible.
When he took BG Leonard's class, he QUICKLY ran it, with his own name and saying it was HIS OWN
class, 3 months after he retook it. He told Leonard he was teaching Leonard's class, and told the
students it was HIS OWN class. vpw intended to plagiarize that from the beginning.
As for the White Book, it was the textbook for "the class"- and it was Stiles' book with vpw's name
on it.
I don't think they "became areas of disobedience"-that makes it sound like he was doing fine and these
came in afterwards- he PLANNED to plagiarize from the moment he took Leonard's class and got
Stiles' book.
(We examined this in "the way:living in wonderland".)
As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever
and wherever he could. Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he
display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it
acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals?
Did all that make him evil?
That's not for me to judge. However, it did make him unworthy to be followed as a leader under God.
And that's independent of his chronic use of alcohol and sudden bursts of anger at the drop of a hat.
Galatians 5 warns that people who do that sort of thing won't inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I'm not PRECISELY sure what that means, but it sounds really bad.
I think LCM came into TWI with all the best intentions and I believe he served God to the best of his ability until he became the Prez and pride overtook him. It wasn't so much the acts of adultery that led him to his disobedience toward God, but pride. Pride led him into a narcisstic mentally that caused him to inflict pain and suffering on many, many believers.
I think the evidence shows that lcm came in with good intentions, and wanted to learn more about God.
However, he put absolute devotion into vpw, and vpw taught him to be twofold the child of hell that he himself was.
Matthew 23:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Try reading what lcm said in his devotion to vpw. We examined that in the "vp and me in wonderlan" thread.
You'll see lcm learned all sorts of harmful things FROM vpw directly.
The Way Corps became the way all and be all for many TWI believers. Many people erroneously thought that being a Way Corp made them a better believer. Thus, way too many people joined the Corps. Then, way too many people tried to imitate LCM by dominating and domineering others. For most of the Corps, it wasn't their fault, it was simply the direction they were being pulled into.
Did most of the people in TWI attempt to obey God and do his will? Yes. Did most of the people in TWI love God and love others with God's love? Yes. Were there a few that didn't? Well, you find a few rotten apples in every bunch.
David
Unfortunately, vpw intended people to make the Way Corps as their be-all and end-all, and loyalty to
vpw and twi were to be EVERYTHING. That's why he occasionally kicked out an entire class, then
said they could come back if they reaffirmed their loyalty IN WRITING.
vpw WANTED people to think that it made them a better Christian, a better believer.
I think a lot of them honestly wanted to do their best for God, then were tricked into going into a program
that supposedly would help that- but stuffed them in a mold to conform them to what vpw wanted-
which was what lcm was doing, just on a larger scale.
I think it's a testimony to many Christians that they came out of the corps and were still viable Christians
after the program that did so much to substitute loyalty for godliness.
I wouldn't put the numbers QUITE so high, but I'd say most of the people and intentions were good.
The thing is, if his sole intention was to discover truth, his approach would have been different. According to Uncle Harry, vpw was never seen as a kid to be devout. According to the locals, his personality was completely irreverent and disrespectful. He went to school to study-HOMILETICS, not Bible languages, or anything for DISCOVERING TRUTH. He remained deficient in understanding what he could- how much time did he put into working what was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example? It was available for almost his entire career...
He himself chafed when he had to answer to ANYONE, and his response (per "Born Again to Serve") to supposedly hearing from God was that "everyone would listen to me". Doesn't sound very devout to me... When he got ahold of something useful for Bible students, he slapped his name on it pretty quickly, and made a point of doing so as completely as possible. When he took BG Leonard's class, he QUICKLY ran it, with his own name and saying it was HIS OWN class, 3 months after he retook it. He told Leonard he was teaching Leonard's class, and told the students it was HIS OWN class. vpw intended to plagiarize that from the beginning. As for the White Book, it was the textbook for "the class"- and it was Stiles' book with vpw's name on it.
I don't think they "became areas of disobedience"-that makes it sound like he was doing fine and these came in afterwards- he PLANNED to plagiarize from the moment he took Leonard's class and got Stiles' book. (We examined this in "the way:living in wonderland".) As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever and wherever he could. Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals? Did all that make him evil?
That's not for me to judge. ...
Oh really? You could have fooled me.
WW's still playing the: Judgement Game - the same ol' tune from the same ol' record ...
I hate to burst your bubble pal, but we've heard that tired out song a long time ago and certainly long before WW came along singing the tune.
We've established your inability to read what's written before, so "fooling you" is old news.
Nice try to take any blame off of vpw and put it on someone exposing what he did- old news again.
WW's still playing the: Judgement Game - the same ol' tune from the same ol' record ...
I hate to burst your bubble pal, but we've heard that tired out song a long time ago and certainly long before WW came along singing the tune.
WTH's still playing the "distort what someone else said and change the subject when vpw is blamed"
game again, and that's an old, tired song.
========
Here's what I said (before someone tried to distort it)
(snip)
The thing is, if his sole intention was to discover truth, his approach would have been different.
According to Uncle Harry, vpw was never seen as a kid to be devout.
According to the locals, his personality was completely irreverent and disrespectful.
He went to school to study-HOMILETICS, not Bible languages, or anything for DISCOVERING TRUTH.
He remained deficient in understanding what he could- how much time did he put into working
what was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example? It was available for almost his entire
career...
He himself chafed when he had to answer to ANYONE, and his response (per "Born Again to Serve")
to supposedly hearing from God was that "everyone would listen to me".
Doesn't sound very devout to me...
When he got ahold of something useful for Bible students, he slapped his name on it pretty quickly,
and made a point of doing so as completely as possible.
When he took BG Leonard's class, he QUICKLY ran it, with his own name and saying it was HIS OWN
class, 3 months after he retook it. He told Leonard he was teaching Leonard's class, and told the
students it was HIS OWN class. vpw intended to plagiarize that from the beginning.
As for the White Book, it was the textbook for "the class"- and it was Stiles' book with vpw's name
on it.
I don't think they "became areas of disobedience"-that makes it sound like he was doing fine and these
came in afterwards- he PLANNED to plagiarize from the moment he took Leonard's class and got
Stiles' book.
(We examined this in "the way:living in wonderland".)
As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever
and wherever he could.
Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he
display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it
acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals?
Did all that make him evil?
That's not for me to judge. However, it did make him unworthy to be followed as a leader under God.
And that's independent of his chronic use of alcohol and sudden bursts of anger at the drop of a hat.
Galatians 5 warns that people who do that sort of thing won't inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I'm not PRECISELY sure what that means, but it sounds really bad.
As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever
and wherever he could. Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he
display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it
acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals?
Did all that make him evil?
That's not for me to judge.
That's where we disagree... I think it's perfectly all right for me to judge him on these and other things...
I don't think I was given a brain and a conscience just so's I wouldn't use them in cases like this... I think I was given them for a reason, even though the cult I belonged to didn't want me to... the cult I belonged to wanted me to replace "that still, small voice" inside me with whatever their "company line" was...
That's where we disagree... I think it's perfectly all right for me to judge him on these and other things...
I don't think I was given a brain and a conscience just so's I wouldn't use them in cases like this... I think I was given them for a reason, even though the cult I belonged to didn't want me to... the cult I belonged to wanted me to replace "that still, small voice" inside me with whatever their "company line" was...
I don't think it's for me to judge him as EVIL or not.
Using the standards in Galatians 5 and seeing if they apply-well, they were given to us so that we WOULD
use them. That doesn't mean I say he was EVIL or not. That means I say whether or not he's the sort
of man God said is worth taking seriously on spiritual matters.
I mean, for example, who among us would take Hugh Hefner's advice on spiritual matters?
Thank you for posting what you did. I appreciate your perspective. I think it gives some fresh thought to the subject.
But I do need to comment on a couple of your statements.
Everyone thinks they were so blinded. That all of the brainwash-type, villainous mechanisms is an excuse for why they remained in the ministry.
Yes, I think putting my innocence, faith and trust in a liar = me being blinded. Does my saying so here mean I haven't recognized my own willingness to put my faith so blindly in someone else? My own responsibility? I think this argument, which comes up alot here on the boards, is comparing apples to oranges. They are two different issues.
Honestly, I think that people do things for good reasons.
I think most of us STARTED for good reasons. But I think most of us remained with twi (even through the 90's) because of a combination of our own good intentions and of the manipulative, fear-inducing tactics that had become standard in twi. They wove our own good intentions into their legalism, and used it against us. To walk away from their legalism (we were told) meant we also had to walk away from our good intentions (and God's blessings). Was that warped version of our original good intentions a "good reason"? Well, I'm sure we all thought so at the time, or we wouldn't have stayed.
But what you read here at Greasespot are the thoughts of people who are looking back and realizing that all those "good reasons" we held so dear were, in reality, folly. Folly because they weren't based on truth. And admitting that to yourself and 'aloud' here on the boards is a big deal. You first have to admit a wrong was committed before you can recognize your own part in it. I think it is incorrect to condemn the majority of thoughts and posts here as negative, self-serving, or bashing. And I think there are plenty of threads and posts here that commend the "good folks" we all knew. If twi had been only evil all the time, none of us would have joined. It was the hope that the good folks would prevail that kept so many of us hanging in there for so long.
But there are good people still working in its ranks. And they are working for the right reasons even if they realize the weaknesses. ...who are believing for the right reasons. And by bashing on everything, I feel that we are demeaning those people. Nothing is perfect. And in a way, I feel like I am demeaning my own family.
I do think there are still people involved in twi who fit into this category. But I also think that they are few and far between. It is hard for me to see how anyone who was in twi through the Martindale lawsuits falls into this category. There were plenty of things that were questionable about how the ministry has handled all of it, even if you do believe that it was just a one-time consensual affair, as we were told. I don't personally know of a single person who went through those times who didn't have questions; serious question; lots of them. And those questions did NOT get answered. And they CHOSE to let it go and pretend it doesn't matter. I don't see how you can do that and still be "believing for the right reasons." Because at that point a choice is made not to stand up to the wrong, but to ignore it and go on, hoping it will resolve itself. At that point, in my book, you are no longer a victim, but at best an enabler, and at worst a victimizer.
That being said, I don't think the posts here are meant to bash those people. I think they are meant to bash twi, the organizational structure; the leadership. I think most of us here feel badly for those who are still in, realizing that they are being used and decieved the way we were; trapped in a mix of hopeful good intentions and controlling legalism. What we express here is an anger that it happened to us, and an anger that it still continues to happen to others today. It is these very people who twi relies on to front their evil. It is how twi perpetuates itself. And that is frustrating.
So, I appreciate your sentiment towards your own innocent upbringing and your parents good intentions and good deeds. I'm glad you've come to those realizations. I think you need to see both sides of the thing. But, at the same time, I don't think you should point fingers at the rest of us who still have things to work out and things that we think need to be said before we can say, "I'm just over it."
And I'm done with it. I'm finished with being angry. Without the Way, I wouldnt exist. My family wouldnt be in existence. So I have to be thankful for something. And I have to believe that my parents had the best of intentions in their time in the ministry, because that's honestly what I do believe. That in spite of all the ...., there were still honest people that were trying to get past whatever muddy business was going on.
Am I supporting the ministry in this argument? No. But I am supporting the fact that there are good people within its ranks. And that those good people will eventually come out on top, regardless of whether the Way has anything to do with it or now. It's easy to look down on them, to say they are naive or bound, but then we are just as arrogant as anyone else. Then we are as much the criminal as those that have negatively functioned in the way are.
To be honest with everyone, I'm just over it.
Nicole, I know you are not in the least pointing any fingers, because you are testifying from your own life, about yourself, and wat you have observed. BUt, your use of the words "I'm just over it" is a red flag to some, who then seem to forget that you are testifying about your own life and about how you are handling things.
I certainly have had my own personal experiences with the "we were all brainwashed" theme we hear so many times. I was told during my deprogramming almost 28 years ago that the reason I had to be grabbed and held involuntarily was that people in TWI were so brainwashed that no one could or would ever leave on their own, no matter how bad things got. That obviously has been disproven many thousands of times over.
I think that the idea that anyone, even when plainly testifying about their own life and not for anyone else, can honestly say they are "over it" , runs foreign to the idea that we were all way robots and couldnt do anything on our own. Thus the response that you are pointing fingers, even though you are not talkign about anyone except yourself and your family. So goes as well, I think, the idea that anyone can, as you testified that you did, have gained some valuable living lessons while in TWI. Or, as a former frequent and now rare poster told me years ago, "TWI taught me how to live", while going on in the same message to detail some of "the evil that evolved in TWI."
Of course, with the hurts suffered by many, we should not state or even imply that someone else should be moving beyond their hurts. And you have definitely not done that, being very specific in talking about yourself and your own family.
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cman
so you are experiencing the fruit of your decision oldies
glad i didn't do what you do
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rascal
Yeah Skyrider, Wierwille and LCM could have never succeded had they not had the Good Guys to hide behind...and I count myself, and most of us here in that catagory of selfless duolos
If VPW had simply jumped out in the beginning and said *BOO! I am a drunken, lascivious, perverted old man who is a serial adulterer and rapist. You will have to protect your teenaged daughters from me and those I have taught, You will will suffer deprivation, loss of family and friends, broken marriages, possibly be required to abort your inconvenient babies, cast your living children to the streets at the capricious whims of your leaders...you will devote your time, your resources, your youth for a decade or more... when you are tired of the bullying, degradation, and humiliation....when every last ounce of usefullness is wrung out of you, and you are exhausted as a resource......you will then be cast aside like so much garbage*
Well I guess that we would have politely declined.
Unfortunately..none of that info was in the fine print when we signed the green cards :(
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potato
amen rascal.
I take responsibility. I finally woke up and walked away. I was terrified of what the devil would be able to do to me, but I was already living a life that had no joy, so I made the decision to leave. I am responsible for that active process of challenging 2 decades of brainwashing and leaving EVEN THOUGH I WAS AFRAID FOR MY FAMILY'S LIFE.
I have gotten over a lot of it, but I'm still angry to a certain degree at the injustice and cruelty of the Way government. they lied. it was not all about teaching people the word and helping them. ultimately it was about stroking the egos and filling the bellies of an elite echelon of narcissists. the bible was just the vehicle by which the true objective was obtained.
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Edi
Nicole, that was quite some post. I agree with you. I think most people went into the Ministry and Corps with good intentions and with their hearts in the right place. Love you. Edi
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Ham
That's why I can't trust any organization on it's face value..
"oh, just get to know your leaders.."
I don't know if you really can.. loy, vic et al managed to hide behind an elaborate facade..
too easy for "those kind" to hide in an organization, when it is sufficiently large, or the "members" sufficiently trusting. Maybe that's what enables them.. to this day, some posters here still insist on giving these lowlife some kind of benefit of the doubt..
I don't blame the people who were in it to do some good. Those who were aware of some of the abuse spoke up. I think the real coverup was a lot closer to the top. "Men" with conscience seared with a hot iron.
gonna run a scam, I guess you need to find, or make a few goons..
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coolchef
when i was in,there were many,many good folks,including leadership.
i am sure there still are although disallusioned as many{most}of us WERE
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Biblefan Dave
I think 99.9% of the people in TWI were good. I think 95% of people's intentions were good.
I think VPW had all of the best intentions when he set out to discover the truth of God's Word. Yet, plagarism and adultery became areas of disobedience. He took some of his teachings to be equivalent to God's Word and never bothered checking to see if they were actually accurate. Did that make him EVIL? No, I don't believe so.
I think LCM came into TWI with all the best intentions and I believe he served God to the best of his ability until he became the Prez and pride overtook him. It wasn't so much the acts of adultery that led him to his disobedience toward God, but pride. Pride led him into a narcisstic mentally that caused him to inflict pain and suffering on many, many believers.
The Way Corps became the way all and be all for many TWI believers. Many people erroneously thought that being a Way Corp made them a better believer. Thus, way too many people joined the Corps. Then, way too many people tried to imitate LCM by dominating and domineering others. For most of the Corps, it wasn't their fault, it was simply the direction they were being pulled into.
Did most of the people in TWI attempt to obey God and do his will? Yes. Did most of the people in TWI love God and love others with God's love? Yes. Were there a few that didn't? Well, you find a few rotten apples in every bunch.
David
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WordWolf
I wouldn't put the numbers QUITE so high, but I'd say most of the people and intentions were good.
The thing is, if his sole intention was to discover truth, his approach would have been different.According to Uncle Harry, vpw was never seen as a kid to be devout.
According to the locals, his personality was completely irreverent and disrespectful.
He went to school to study-HOMILETICS, not Bible languages, or anything for DISCOVERING TRUTH.
He remained deficient in understanding what he could- how much time did he put into working
what was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example? It was available for almost his entire
career...
He himself chafed when he had to answer to ANYONE, and his response (per "Born Again to Serve")
to supposedly hearing from God was that "everyone would listen to me".
Doesn't sound very devout to me...
When he got ahold of something useful for Bible students, he slapped his name on it pretty quickly,
and made a point of doing so as completely as possible.
When he took BG Leonard's class, he QUICKLY ran it, with his own name and saying it was HIS OWN
class, 3 months after he retook it. He told Leonard he was teaching Leonard's class, and told the
students it was HIS OWN class. vpw intended to plagiarize that from the beginning.
As for the White Book, it was the textbook for "the class"- and it was Stiles' book with vpw's name
on it.
I don't think they "became areas of disobedience"-that makes it sound like he was doing fine and these
came in afterwards- he PLANNED to plagiarize from the moment he took Leonard's class and got
Stiles' book.
(We examined this in "the way:living in wonderland".)
As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever
and wherever he could. Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he
display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it
acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals?
Did all that make him evil?
That's not for me to judge. However, it did make him unworthy to be followed as a leader under God.
And that's independent of his chronic use of alcohol and sudden bursts of anger at the drop of a hat.
Galatians 5 warns that people who do that sort of thing won't inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I'm not PRECISELY sure what that means, but it sounds really bad.
I think the evidence shows that lcm came in with good intentions, and wanted to learn more about God.
However, he put absolute devotion into vpw, and vpw taught him to be twofold the child of hell that he himself was.
Matthew 23:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Try reading what lcm said in his devotion to vpw. We examined that in the "vp and me in wonderlan" thread.
You'll see lcm learned all sorts of harmful things FROM vpw directly.
Unfortunately, vpw intended people to make the Way Corps as their be-all and end-all, and loyalty to
vpw and twi were to be EVERYTHING. That's why he occasionally kicked out an entire class, then
said they could come back if they reaffirmed their loyalty IN WRITING.
vpw WANTED people to think that it made them a better Christian, a better believer.
I think a lot of them honestly wanted to do their best for God, then were tricked into going into a program
that supposedly would help that- but stuffed them in a mold to conform them to what vpw wanted-
which was what lcm was doing, just on a larger scale.
I think it's a testimony to many Christians that they came out of the corps and were still viable Christians
after the program that did so much to substitute loyalty for godliness.
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What The Hey
Oh really? You could have fooled me.
WW's still playing the: Judgement Game - the same ol' tune from the same ol' record ...
I hate to burst your bubble pal, but we've heard that tired out song a long time ago and certainly long before WW came along singing the tune.
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WordWolf
We've established your inability to read what's written before, so "fooling you" is old news.
Nice try to take any blame off of vpw and put it on someone exposing what he did- old news again.
WTH's still playing the "distort what someone else said and change the subject when vpw is blamed"
game again, and that's an old, tired song.
========
Here's what I said (before someone tried to distort it)
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nandon
yup, there were/are good ppl in the ministry.
good point.
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Tom Strange
That's where we disagree... I think it's perfectly all right for me to judge him on these and other things...
I don't think I was given a brain and a conscience just so's I wouldn't use them in cases like this... I think I was given them for a reason, even though the cult I belonged to didn't want me to... the cult I belonged to wanted me to replace "that still, small voice" inside me with whatever their "company line" was...
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WordWolf
I don't think it's for me to judge him as EVIL or not.
Using the standards in Galatians 5 and seeing if they apply-well, they were given to us so that we WOULD
use them. That doesn't mean I say he was EVIL or not. That means I say whether or not he's the sort
of man God said is worth taking seriously on spiritual matters.
I mean, for example, who among us would take Hugh Hefner's advice on spiritual matters?
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Tom Strange
well I wouldn't want to bring HH down to veepee's level... at least he's honest about it...
(forgive me, I couldn't resist)
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potato
honesty is an admirable quality, and I bet none of those ladies had to get lied to or drugged to put on bunny suits.
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TheHighWay
Nicole,
Thank you for posting what you did. I appreciate your perspective. I think it gives some fresh thought to the subject.
But I do need to comment on a couple of your statements.
Yes, I think putting my innocence, faith and trust in a liar = me being blinded. Does my saying so here mean I haven't recognized my own willingness to put my faith so blindly in someone else? My own responsibility? I think this argument, which comes up alot here on the boards, is comparing apples to oranges. They are two different issues.
I think most of us STARTED for good reasons. But I think most of us remained with twi (even through the 90's) because of a combination of our own good intentions and of the manipulative, fear-inducing tactics that had become standard in twi. They wove our own good intentions into their legalism, and used it against us. To walk away from their legalism (we were told) meant we also had to walk away from our good intentions (and God's blessings). Was that warped version of our original good intentions a "good reason"? Well, I'm sure we all thought so at the time, or we wouldn't have stayed.
But what you read here at Greasespot are the thoughts of people who are looking back and realizing that all those "good reasons" we held so dear were, in reality, folly. Folly because they weren't based on truth. And admitting that to yourself and 'aloud' here on the boards is a big deal. You first have to admit a wrong was committed before you can recognize your own part in it. I think it is incorrect to condemn the majority of thoughts and posts here as negative, self-serving, or bashing. And I think there are plenty of threads and posts here that commend the "good folks" we all knew. If twi had been only evil all the time, none of us would have joined. It was the hope that the good folks would prevail that kept so many of us hanging in there for so long.
I do think there are still people involved in twi who fit into this category. But I also think that they are few and far between. It is hard for me to see how anyone who was in twi through the Martindale lawsuits falls into this category. There were plenty of things that were questionable about how the ministry has handled all of it, even if you do believe that it was just a one-time consensual affair, as we were told. I don't personally know of a single person who went through those times who didn't have questions; serious question; lots of them. And those questions did NOT get answered. And they CHOSE to let it go and pretend it doesn't matter. I don't see how you can do that and still be "believing for the right reasons." Because at that point a choice is made not to stand up to the wrong, but to ignore it and go on, hoping it will resolve itself. At that point, in my book, you are no longer a victim, but at best an enabler, and at worst a victimizer.
That being said, I don't think the posts here are meant to bash those people. I think they are meant to bash twi, the organizational structure; the leadership. I think most of us here feel badly for those who are still in, realizing that they are being used and decieved the way we were; trapped in a mix of hopeful good intentions and controlling legalism. What we express here is an anger that it happened to us, and an anger that it still continues to happen to others today. It is these very people who twi relies on to front their evil. It is how twi perpetuates itself. And that is frustrating.
So, I appreciate your sentiment towards your own innocent upbringing and your parents good intentions and good deeds. I'm glad you've come to those realizations. I think you need to see both sides of the thing. But, at the same time, I don't think you should point fingers at the rest of us who still have things to work out and things that we think need to be said before we can say, "I'm just over it."
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Belle
TheHighway, that is one awesome post!!!
GSpot Gem-worthy, that post is!!
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Lifted Up
Nicole, I know you are not in the least pointing any fingers, because you are testifying from your own life, about yourself, and wat you have observed. BUt, your use of the words "I'm just over it" is a red flag to some, who then seem to forget that you are testifying about your own life and about how you are handling things.
I certainly have had my own personal experiences with the "we were all brainwashed" theme we hear so many times. I was told during my deprogramming almost 28 years ago that the reason I had to be grabbed and held involuntarily was that people in TWI were so brainwashed that no one could or would ever leave on their own, no matter how bad things got. That obviously has been disproven many thousands of times over.
I think that the idea that anyone, even when plainly testifying about their own life and not for anyone else, can honestly say they are "over it" , runs foreign to the idea that we were all way robots and couldnt do anything on our own. Thus the response that you are pointing fingers, even though you are not talkign about anyone except yourself and your family. So goes as well, I think, the idea that anyone can, as you testified that you did, have gained some valuable living lessons while in TWI. Or, as a former frequent and now rare poster told me years ago, "TWI taught me how to live", while going on in the same message to detail some of "the evil that evolved in TWI."
Of course, with the hurts suffered by many, we should not state or even imply that someone else should be moving beyond their hurts. And you have definitely not done that, being very specific in talking about yourself and your own family.
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polar bear
Highway-
that was awesome.
Nicole, another suggestion. It would be will worth your while to read through many of the threads on "About the Way" before passing any judgement.
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