My family has been out of the ministry entirely for five years now, ever since I was 17 years old.
This is my issue. I refuse to tell people that I spent the first eight years of my life living basically on a commune (headquarters). I lived in a trailer with another family. I ate meals with people in a communal setting. That's not really a normal setting to grow up in. But looking back, I was free to play on grounds anywhere I wanted. I caught frogs and turtles and ran with a big group of kids constantly in a place that was basically a safe zone. (I know there is a lot of talk of sexual abuse with way kids. I never experienced any of that, thank God. But like anything else, I would be pretty positive that the statistics for sexual abuse within the ministry match the statistics outside of the ministry.) Honestly, living in Headquarters until second grade wasnt a terrible time. It was pretty flexible from what I remember. People took care of me. And I learned a great deal about independence and breaking rules. (I once picked a bunch of flowers from Mrs Wierwille's garden and gave them to people around headquarters. As enraged as some people were, I think I was more encouraged than anything else.)
In thinking about my utter refusal to tell anyone about this, I first think that because it isnt normal, people wont accept my background or my family's background. But this is my issue. As much as I slam the Way, I often think that I am slapping my parents in the face. For them to spend a majority of their adult years dedicated to something that may not necessarily be the best organization is almost embarassing to me. However, I know the intentions of my parents. I know that they were in it for the RIGHT reasons. That they wanted to be able to reach out to people because they believed in what they were doing. They had passion. I dont think they were brainwashed. I dont think that they were unaware of what was REALLY happening within the way. I really dont. My parents helped alot of people in their time in the ministry. They reached out, they made so many friends, and in my mind, they made a difference in peoples' lives. I am proud of my parents for what they accomplished within the Way. And I think that is a fair statement.
What else is there? We can slam the ministry all we want. We can say that we're glad we got out of it. I am glad I did. It wasnt for me. But there are good people still working in its ranks. And they are working for the right reasons even if they realize the weaknesses. Nothing is perfect.
Everyone thinks they were so blinded. That all of the brainwash-type, villainous mechanisms is an excuse for why they remained in the ministry. Honestly, I think that people do things for good reasons. That there are still alot of people in the ministry who are believing for the right reasons. And by bashing on everything, I feel that we are demeaning those people. And in a way, I feel like I am demeaning my own family. You know, you can place blame anywhere you want but until you own your own decisions, you wont get anywhere with personal growth. Until you own the fact that you became part of something that wasnt all GOOD, you wont get anywhere. It is your fault. So ....ing take responsibility for that and quit being a victim. I was born into it. I never had to make that decision for myself. And for a long time I was angry with that. I was angry because I thought it killed my dad and ruined my family.
And I'm done with it. I'm finished with being angry. Without the Way, I wouldnt exist. My family wouldnt be in existence. So I have to be thankful for something. And I have to believe that my parents had the best of intentions in their time in the ministry, because that's honestly what I do believe. That in spite of all the ...., there were still honest people that were trying to get past whatever muddy business was going on.
Am I supporting the ministry in this argument? No. But I am supporting the fact that there are good people within its ranks. And that those good people will eventually come out on top, regardless of whether the Way has anything to do with it or now. It's easy to look down on them, to say they are naive or bound, but then we are just as arrogant as anyone else. Then we are as much the criminal as those that have negatively functioned in the way are.
To be honest with everyone, I'm just over it.
Nicole, I know that no one around here, no matter what our view of our time in the way and the things we were taught, is going to knock your past or your family's past. And as far as having the best of intentions and being good, well very good people, quite a few of us can testify to that specifically about your parents, as well as about others and about ourselves. (Including many of us 8th corps heh heh.) But, i see where you are coming from. No matter how we see our time in the Way, we understand. Those on the outside we meet, no matter how good their intentions, don't understand. And it is those people we have to deal with in our lives every day, no matter how much time we spend here "in the choir".
There are people who experienced and/or saw bad things in the way, more than I did, who are very angry about it and say so in no uncertain terms. But if you get to know these people, they are also the ones who wonderfully understand how great so many people were in spite of the bad they saw done. As I said once in that other thread, I know your dad was his own person. He may have followed instructions of leadership, as we all did, but he gave in his own way, as did so many.
The problem I guess is those outside hear the stuff about how bad it was for some, and DON'T understand that people could still be very wonderful while in TWI. I don't have THE solution for what or how much to tell the people in the "world" you encounter every day. But as you consider this issue, no matter what you decide, you obviously have the strength to live with whatever you tell them. For what it is worth, maybe not much, I would suggest, whatever, if anything, you decide to tell people about your past and your family's past, tell them with the same tone you have told it to us here. You have said it so wonderfully, and I think you are soooo terrifically dealing with this subject. Just my opinion, of course. :) :) :)
I like to think that Mr. Garden and I were two of the "good guys." We were never on staff or anything, but I know peoples' lives were changed because of us, especially Mr. Garden. 2Life posts here sometimes; she and her husband were WC and our twig coordinators for a while. They would do anything to help people, including moving some real characters into their home, coming to fetch someone in the middle of the night who's car had broken down, even bailing folks out of the slammer! (not us thank God). They were the go to people when you had a need or a problem.
There were lots of really sweet, God loving people in TWI. Unfortunately, the untoward actions of a few people in leadership overshadowed much of the good.
Remember Shakespeare? In "Julius Ceasar" Mark Anthony states in his funeral oration: "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Ceasar."
It is unfortunate that the vile acts of so few have overshadowed the good deeds of so many.
I don't know who your parents were, but I do know there were many, many people whose lives meant a great deal to God as well as to the people they served in love.
Thank for sharing your heart. That was brave of you.
I'm glad you are over it. That's where greasespot comes in. Technically it's not a support group but it is that way for many especially those who aren't over it.
I have a question. If you had such a great time, why do you refuse to share it? Is it because of the stigma attached to twi?
I'm not trying to criticize but maybe you could just share the good things and not bring up the bad stuff. It's your life, share the good and leave the bad out.
The main issue here is the top leadership had the wrong motives. VP, LOY, and many of their cohorts preyed on women, preyed on finances, preyed on people's hearts for their own gain. I don't agree with one thing you said. Look at the tops of any organization, the adultery etc. was much higher in twi than any I know of.
Yes there were good people. When I left none of them ever called me. They left me high and dry. People who I personally spent years helping and counselling. People who I watched for days on end in hospitals, sat their kids while they were sick etc. They all think I am possessed now.
As you read through these threads, many good people were slandered, persecuted, molested, because they were trying to do good. Perhaps when they left they were able to do more good with better results than they did while in twi. I for one can attest to that.
The point here is while there may be good in any group, if the overall motives of the leadership are evil, trouble is bound to arise. It's good we got out. I'm sure there are a few good ones left. I just hope they get out before they get too hurt.
Yes I am pretty well over it (maybe a few grey areas)LOL.
But I now try to help others who aren't and respect their hurt.
Nicole, I am sorry to say that I did not know your father or mother. I do see their stellar qualities in the way you just presented yourself here on this thread.
You have wisdom because you have already begun to put your past in perspective.
As to sharing your past with people you don't know - I'm sure your wisdom will tell you what is right for you at that time and with that particular person. I used to say nothing at all. Now I tell people who ask that I was involved in a cult. I laugh and move on.
Your situation is much different. It's a credit to your parents that you can look back on those years and have fond memories.
Great Post! Thanks for sharing your heart with us. I have to say I agree with all you said and voice my thanks! It's human to go negative on everything and forget the good. I can do that in a single day regarding my day....I will focus on only what went wrong that day and not all of the good things that happened.
I agree! There were many wonderful, awesome people in TWI - why do you think some of us stayed so long?
I think many of the "negative" threads you see are basically calling out VP and LCM - many people did have horrible experiences at their hands.
But many of us avoided or didn't spend time with them and had wonderful friends who loved God and each other. I pretty much liked everything about TWI except VP. So, I worked around that :)
I was one of the "good people" (at least I hope somebody thinks so). Sure, there were a lot of us.. the old ministry could not have functioned without us.
Interesting fact though.. of all the "friendships" I supposedly developed, relationships.. I can count two in the community here that would have anything to do with me.. who would look me up, or make a point to talk if they happened to see me in public.. and they are both no longer in "God's" ministry.
Oh.. there are a few in the next large town that are involved with offshoots.. they are at least polite.
Yeah.. I knew a lot of good people in the old ministry.. I'm just trying to figure out where they all went..
Welcome to GS Cafe. Your sentiment demonstrates once again that the vile acts of so few have not overshadowed the good deeds of so many. Please stay and share more. :)
My parents were also in there when I was younger and I wasn't sexually abused, just mentally and somewhat physically. We're both lucky! I know My parents heart was in the right place too and I am proud of them for trying to be good people - but like you - that doesn't stop me from feeling like a freak about it.
There were good people and there still are good people in there. I believe that completely! I still have one of my few childhood friends that is still in twi after all.
Hi Nicole. I feel for ya. My family was raised since sperm in The Way. I still have family ''IN"........
They are good people. Great people really. Great intentions. Great hearts...........for the WORD.................
I feel like I was ''good'' most of the time too.
I personally am very open with people on the outside that I was in a ''cult''. They are intrigued. I laugh a lot about it now. Mostly, being ''IN" has nothing to do with being ''good''.
The machine of the ministry was/ is bad. Not the people who fell for it. That is what makes it so sad.
btw~ I never give the ministry credit for God's doing. God works for /with people when they allow HIM to. No matter what denomination/affiliation they are with.
You were born because God knew you before the foundations of the world. Not because of the Way Ministry. God would've brought you all together some other way.
You have a loving family. It doesn't matter where they went, or what they were into........ what matters is they were doing it for love and God.
What else is there? We can slam the ministry all we want. We can say that we're glad we got out of it. I am glad I did. It wasnt for me. But there are good people still working in its ranks. And they are working for the right reasons even if they realize the weaknesses. Nothing is perfect.
Everyone thinks they were so blinded. That all of the brainwash-type, villainous mechanisms is an excuse for why they remained in the ministry. Honestly, I think that people do things for good reasons. That there are still alot of people in the ministry who are believing for the right reasons. And by bashing on everything, I feel that we are demeaning those people. And in a way, I feel like I am demeaning my own family. You know, you can place blame anywhere you want but until you own your own decisions, you wont get anywhere with personal growth. Until you own the fact that you became part of something that wasnt all GOOD, you wont get anywhere. It is your fault. So ....ing take responsibility for that and quit being a victim. I was born into it. I never had to make that decision for myself. And for a long time I was angry with that. I was angry because I thought it killed my dad and ruined my family.
And I'm done with it. I'm finished with being angry. Without the Way, I wouldnt exist. My family wouldnt be in existence. So I have to be thankful for something. And I have to believe that my parents had the best of intentions in their time in the ministry.....
Nicole,
Thanks for your post........and yeah, your parents were among the "good guys."
When I post on GS, I always endeavor to direct my comments towards twi's board of directors, twi's pyramid structure, victor paul wierwille, craig martindale, rosalie & donna, twi's legalism, or systematizing of error. IMO, twi has been downward spiraling since 1978 (when I first became aware of its demise -- :blink: ) ......even though the rank and file have worked endless hours to "better" twi and their "promised land."
Sure, there are lots of good people in twi......that's why I stayed so long. Sure, there are lots of folks at hq who work those corporate hours and usher at the Sunday Teaching fellowships.......just like there are lots of good people in the corporate world. Sure, there are many on the field who teach their fellowships and work to run classes......many here at GS would attest to that.
After 24 years in twi, I could NO longer stay the course........the legalism was encroaching every corner of my life. Why couldn't the trustees SEE this?.......why couldn't the trustees FOLLOW GOD'S WORD into the grace?......why couldn't "our leadership" right the ship? These questions and many, many more continued to perplex me. In my innermost thoughts, I'd question twi's trustees' motives, intents, integrity, etc. You see.....it wasn't enough to just be a "good guy"......one had to be vigilant and listen to God's voice. It was time for me to exit.
Looking back, I see how wierwille built his "ministry" from plagerism and like a MLM pyramid. It was structured wrong from the get-go......and doomed to fail. Sure, lots of good folks flocked to it in the early 70s.....in our youth, it was the comaraderie, the spontaneity, the laughs, the give-your-life-to-God thing, etc. BUT.......after another 20 years and with growing teenagers, IT WAS SPIRITUAL ENTRAPMENT.
The "good guys" made twi special......but, the "good guys" also facilitated THE EVIL AT THE TOP. Some of us witnessed and brought scores of new people to twi........only to find out that, later, many of these people were overcome by hurt, pain, and destruction. No more, thank you.
Hmmmm or if you those decisions were a a result of deception, manipulation, coersion, or out and out lies perpetrated on us by those whom we trusted??
It isn`t about not taking responsibility, believe me, most of us were made to believe that we were the scum of the earth before departing twi...we accepted that, that our believing was faulty, our commitment was faulty, our spirituality was lacking, our discernment not sharp enough....
It isn`t about slamming twi, but learning to think and process information in a healthy way, learning how to act post twi in an unscripted world. There is a lot of healing and recovery necessary after spending decades with a group where we so tightly controlled our thoughts, bottled up our emotions, put aside our desires, ignored our pain and grief.
There is much to unravel, much to examine, much to understand. That is what I love about grease spot.
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Lifted Up
Nicole, I know that no one around here, no matter what our view of our time in the way and the things we were taught, is going to knock your past or your family's past. And as far as having the best of intentions and being good, well very good people, quite a few of us can testify to that specifically about your parents, as well as about others and about ourselves. (Including many of us 8th corps heh heh.) But, i see where you are coming from. No matter how we see our time in the Way, we understand. Those on the outside we meet, no matter how good their intentions, don't understand. And it is those people we have to deal with in our lives every day, no matter how much time we spend here "in the choir".
There are people who experienced and/or saw bad things in the way, more than I did, who are very angry about it and say so in no uncertain terms. But if you get to know these people, they are also the ones who wonderfully understand how great so many people were in spite of the bad they saw done. As I said once in that other thread, I know your dad was his own person. He may have followed instructions of leadership, as we all did, but he gave in his own way, as did so many.
The problem I guess is those outside hear the stuff about how bad it was for some, and DON'T understand that people could still be very wonderful while in TWI. I don't have THE solution for what or how much to tell the people in the "world" you encounter every day. But as you consider this issue, no matter what you decide, you obviously have the strength to live with whatever you tell them. For what it is worth, maybe not much, I would suggest, whatever, if anything, you decide to tell people about your past and your family's past, tell them with the same tone you have told it to us here. You have said it so wonderfully, and I think you are soooo terrifically dealing with this subject. Just my opinion, of course. :) :) :)
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anotherDan
Nicole, I'm glad you posted your perspective. It's helped me to see things in a better light, and I wish you all the best in your journey.
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Watered Garden
Nicole,
I like to think that Mr. Garden and I were two of the "good guys." We were never on staff or anything, but I know peoples' lives were changed because of us, especially Mr. Garden. 2Life posts here sometimes; she and her husband were WC and our twig coordinators for a while. They would do anything to help people, including moving some real characters into their home, coming to fetch someone in the middle of the night who's car had broken down, even bailing folks out of the slammer! (not us thank God). They were the go to people when you had a need or a problem.
There were lots of really sweet, God loving people in TWI. Unfortunately, the untoward actions of a few people in leadership overshadowed much of the good.
Remember Shakespeare? In "Julius Ceasar" Mark Anthony states in his funeral oration: "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Ceasar."
It is unfortunate that the vile acts of so few have overshadowed the good deeds of so many.
I don't know who your parents were, but I do know there were many, many people whose lives meant a great deal to God as well as to the people they served in love.
WG
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polar bear
Dear Nicole-
Thank for sharing your heart. That was brave of you.
I'm glad you are over it. That's where greasespot comes in. Technically it's not a support group but it is that way for many especially those who aren't over it.
I have a question. If you had such a great time, why do you refuse to share it? Is it because of the stigma attached to twi?
I'm not trying to criticize but maybe you could just share the good things and not bring up the bad stuff. It's your life, share the good and leave the bad out.
The main issue here is the top leadership had the wrong motives. VP, LOY, and many of their cohorts preyed on women, preyed on finances, preyed on people's hearts for their own gain. I don't agree with one thing you said. Look at the tops of any organization, the adultery etc. was much higher in twi than any I know of.
Yes there were good people. When I left none of them ever called me. They left me high and dry. People who I personally spent years helping and counselling. People who I watched for days on end in hospitals, sat their kids while they were sick etc. They all think I am possessed now.
As you read through these threads, many good people were slandered, persecuted, molested, because they were trying to do good. Perhaps when they left they were able to do more good with better results than they did while in twi. I for one can attest to that.
The point here is while there may be good in any group, if the overall motives of the leadership are evil, trouble is bound to arise. It's good we got out. I'm sure there are a few good ones left. I just hope they get out before they get too hurt.
Yes I am pretty well over it (maybe a few grey areas)LOL.
But I now try to help others who aren't and respect their hurt.
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doojable
Nicole, I am sorry to say that I did not know your father or mother. I do see their stellar qualities in the way you just presented yourself here on this thread.
You have wisdom because you have already begun to put your past in perspective.
As to sharing your past with people you don't know - I'm sure your wisdom will tell you what is right for you at that time and with that particular person. I used to say nothing at all. Now I tell people who ask that I was involved in a cult. I laugh and move on.
Your situation is much different. It's a credit to your parents that you can look back on those years and have fond memories.
Thank you for being so open and honest.
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newlife
Great Post! Thanks for sharing your heart with us. I have to say I agree with all you said and voice my thanks! It's human to go negative on everything and forget the good. I can do that in a single day regarding my day....I will focus on only what went wrong that day and not all of the good things that happened.
Love your heart!
Newlife
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Sunesis
I agree! There were many wonderful, awesome people in TWI - why do you think some of us stayed so long?
I think many of the "negative" threads you see are basically calling out VP and LCM - many people did have horrible experiences at their hands.
But many of us avoided or didn't spend time with them and had wonderful friends who loved God and each other. I pretty much liked everything about TWI except VP. So, I worked around that :)
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Ham
Welcome, Nicole..
I was one of the "good people" (at least I hope somebody thinks so). Sure, there were a lot of us.. the old ministry could not have functioned without us.
Interesting fact though.. of all the "friendships" I supposedly developed, relationships.. I can count two in the community here that would have anything to do with me.. who would look me up, or make a point to talk if they happened to see me in public.. and they are both no longer in "God's" ministry.
Oh.. there are a few in the next large town that are involved with offshoots.. they are at least polite.
Yeah.. I knew a lot of good people in the old ministry.. I'm just trying to figure out where they all went..
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rascal
Welcome Nicole :)
Most of us were in twi for the right reasons. We tried to make the world a better place, the only way we knew how.
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oldiesman
Nicole,
Welcome to GS Cafe. Your sentiment demonstrates once again that the vile acts of so few have not overshadowed the good deeds of so many. Please stay and share more. :)
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Nero
My parents were also in there when I was younger and I wasn't sexually abused, just mentally and somewhat physically. We're both lucky! I know My parents heart was in the right place too and I am proud of them for trying to be good people - but like you - that doesn't stop me from feeling like a freak about it.
There were good people and there still are good people in there. I believe that completely! I still have one of my few childhood friends that is still in twi after all.
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Watered Garden
Oldies,
You just plaigerized my post!
WG
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oldiesman
I think it was more like an adaptation. :)
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rascal
I think the bible puts it as *a little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf* In other words it doesn`t take much.
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Watered Garden
It's still plaigerism. I want my 25 cents royalty!
WG
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oldiesman
I'll send you a few La Shantas instead.
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anotherDan
WG.... don't take any wooden nickels!
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bliss
Hi Nicole. I feel for ya. My family was raised since sperm in The Way. I still have family ''IN"........
They are good people. Great people really. Great intentions. Great hearts...........for the WORD.................
I feel like I was ''good'' most of the time too.
I personally am very open with people on the outside that I was in a ''cult''. They are intrigued. I laugh a lot about it now. Mostly, being ''IN" has nothing to do with being ''good''.
The machine of the ministry was/ is bad. Not the people who fell for it. That is what makes it so sad.
btw~ I never give the ministry credit for God's doing. God works for /with people when they allow HIM to. No matter what denomination/affiliation they are with.
You were born because God knew you before the foundations of the world. Not because of the Way Ministry. God would've brought you all together some other way.
You have a loving family. It doesn't matter where they went, or what they were into........ what matters is they were doing it for love and God.
Remember that!
blessings!
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Watered Garden
Gee thanks, Oldies!
That'd be a heckuva lot more than your hero ever gave B. G. Leonard.
WG
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skyrider
Nicole,
Thanks for your post........and yeah, your parents were among the "good guys."
When I post on GS, I always endeavor to direct my comments towards twi's board of directors, twi's pyramid structure, victor paul wierwille, craig martindale, rosalie & donna, twi's legalism, or systematizing of error. IMO, twi has been downward spiraling since 1978 (when I first became aware of its demise -- :blink: ) ......even though the rank and file have worked endless hours to "better" twi and their "promised land."
Sure, there are lots of good people in twi......that's why I stayed so long. Sure, there are lots of folks at hq who work those corporate hours and usher at the Sunday Teaching fellowships.......just like there are lots of good people in the corporate world. Sure, there are many on the field who teach their fellowships and work to run classes......many here at GS would attest to that.
After 24 years in twi, I could NO longer stay the course........the legalism was encroaching every corner of my life. Why couldn't the trustees SEE this?.......why couldn't the trustees FOLLOW GOD'S WORD into the grace?......why couldn't "our leadership" right the ship? These questions and many, many more continued to perplex me. In my innermost thoughts, I'd question twi's trustees' motives, intents, integrity, etc. You see.....it wasn't enough to just be a "good guy"......one had to be vigilant and listen to God's voice. It was time for me to exit.
Looking back, I see how wierwille built his "ministry" from plagerism and like a MLM pyramid. It was structured wrong from the get-go......and doomed to fail. Sure, lots of good folks flocked to it in the early 70s.....in our youth, it was the comaraderie, the spontaneity, the laughs, the give-your-life-to-God thing, etc. BUT.......after another 20 years and with growing teenagers, IT WAS SPIRITUAL ENTRAPMENT.
The "good guys" made twi special......but, the "good guys" also facilitated THE EVIL AT THE TOP. Some of us witnessed and brought scores of new people to twi........only to find out that, later, many of these people were overcome by hurt, pain, and destruction. No more, thank you.
Nicole.....your Dad was awesome. He really was.
Take care.
skyrider
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johniam
quote: You know, you can place blame anywhere you want but until you own your own decisions, you wont get anywhere with personal growth.
Amen.
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cman
if they were your own......
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rascal
Hmmmm or if you those decisions were a a result of deception, manipulation, coersion, or out and out lies perpetrated on us by those whom we trusted??
It isn`t about not taking responsibility, believe me, most of us were made to believe that we were the scum of the earth before departing twi...we accepted that, that our believing was faulty, our commitment was faulty, our spirituality was lacking, our discernment not sharp enough....
It isn`t about slamming twi, but learning to think and process information in a healthy way, learning how to act post twi in an unscripted world. There is a lot of healing and recovery necessary after spending decades with a group where we so tightly controlled our thoughts, bottled up our emotions, put aside our desires, ignored our pain and grief.
There is much to unravel, much to examine, much to understand. That is what I love about grease spot.
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cman
Then we live with it, but don't blame ourselves.
We learn how to avoid those mistakes again.
And prosecute and warn others of 'the way' it happened.
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