Journey from Christianity to Atheism

[Suda]

Have a few minutes and wanted to respond to some of the previous posts.

Bramble, in response to your post #150, we have a great local food bank here sponsored by MIFA - Memphis InterFaith Association. One of their great ways of fund raising is that whenever you check out from the grocery store, you can “buy” a coupon (think they range from $1, $5, $10, and $20) and pay for it with your grocery purchase. The grocery store then forwards the contributions to the food bank. I donate that way, as well as through the many food drives they have through schools, the post office, and charitable organizations. Sudo’s church is one of the largest participants in the program - it actually has it’s own pantry and daily fills boxes of food for local people in need.

Part of my point was that people do not attend church on Sunday so they can participate in the food bank. This happens daily as a part of their community service which, imo, is fostered by their religious beliefs. Living their beliefs is daily, not restricted to Sunday morning gatherings.

Bramble and Bolshevik, indicated that attending church is often done as a family “activity” (for lack of a better word). After our exit from twi, we agreed it was important to bring up our children in a community of faith, and joining a church became a priority. I was “great with child” and had two toddlers so he did most of the hunting alone, but found a Christian (Disciples of Christ) church that we both agreed would be a good setting. We joined in 1990, and within a year we were both very active there.

I was selected for “The Training of the 12", a 1-year program to train future leaders of the church. Twelve people were selected each year, and the group met weekly with the four ministers for 3 hour sessions. About an hour was presentation/lecture, about 2 hours were discussion. I was “on board” with the 3 associate pastors, but the senior minister and I butted heads, a lot, every week. I was not shy about challenging his viewpoints that struck me as contradicting scripture. At the first meeting, he challenged me to bring back a paper to him outlining my viewpoints, and we could discuss them. Think he came to regret that, as each week I would arrive with multi-paged “term papers” to hand out to all the participants. I was not the “yes man” he had counted on for one of his handpicked 12.

After “graduation”, I chose to work in the nursery area and teach the kindergarten class during the Sunday School hour, and then be with the 1st - 5th graders for Children’s Church while “Big Church” was in session. This was primarily so that I could be near my autistic son who did not respond well to auditory stimuli and became distraught in the midst of a lot of activity. He needed “peace and quiet” which was hard to come by in a nursery setting, but we made it work. My eldest daughter, bless her heart, was somehow dubbed “the kid to pick on” and came to really dislike Sunday School. She told me she had prayed about it, and she wanted to help me out in the nursery, and be able to be close to her brother and keep him comfortable, as well as help with all the children there. She said this way she could serve God and enjoy attending with the family. This was all approved and welcomed by the Nursery staff, and continued until he was in the first grade.

Then all hell broke loose. The 1st-5th graders were to go from their Sunday School class to "Big Church" with their parents for the opening portions, and were dismissed to "Children's Church" prior to the sermon. My son had continued to stay in the kindergarten room with me for Sunday School. I left him under the watchful eye of my daughter during the opening of "Big Church" and would swing by and pick them both up for "Children's Church" as I was leading the other children from the sanctuary to the chapel where "Children's Church" was held. During my absence, they prepared and served the refreshments to all the nursey classes.

RS (the senior minister) decided I was setting dangerous precedents in the Nursery by having my children there now that my son was in first grade. I asked “If he had down syndrome, would it be a problem?” “No, certainly not, we make exceptions for children with special needs.” “Well, my son has special needs, he is autistic, and cannot go to “Big Church” for the opening hymns, announcements, and prayers. The choir is lovely, but much too loud for him. It overstimulates him, physically hurts his ears, and he had a very difficult time regaining his composure after being frightened by the loud noises.” “Well, if he can’t behave properly at church, you, he, and your daughter are no longer welcome at this church.”

So the children and I departed in 1998 and spent several years visiting churches trying to find another one that would meet our family’s needs. It proved unfruitful. The girls ended up going with their friends to different churches, my son and I stayed home and watched a service on TV or on the radio, or had our own worship service, just the two of us. In 2002, I joined a home fellowship comprised of ex-twi folks and folks who had never been affiliated with twi. It is a great fellowship, and it is where I continue worshiping today. He did not like that setting, either. As he attends a Christian school, he has daily Bible classes and Chapel at least once a week, and decided that was enough “Sunday School and Church” for him.

So what began as a “family affair” ended almost 10 years ago when I was asked to leave the church. Interesting that just last month the minister that “kicked” me out, was forced to resign due to his ill behavior and twisting of the scripture - the same things I got in trouble for confronting him on during my last 6 years attending there, which, ultimately, ended in my dismissal from the congregation.

By 2002, my husband was very vocal about his atheism at home and with his staff at work, but continues to attend church routinely. This behavior is still confusing to me.

Sirguessalot, as always, your posts are thought provoking and appreciated.

Oakspear, you are so good at clarifying issues. I would appreciate your input on the "reality of Jesus Christ = the reality of Santa Claus" equation.

Suda

[Oakspear]

Oakspear, you are so good at clarifying issues. I would appreciate your input on the "reality of Jesus Christ = the reality of Santa Claus" equation.

Suda

Ah, the "voice of reason" is such a lonely job :P

The analogy of Santa Claus vs. God, like all analogies is not exact, there isn't identity on all points, just some.

Some of the differences are that few, if any, adults believe in Santa Claus. It is something that they teach their children to believe in with absolutely no expectation that the belief will endure into adolescence, let alone adulthood. A similarity is that, like Santa Claus, God is something that people will believe in without any objective evidence. Other differences, in my opinion are cultural. When a child questions the existance of Santa, at first a parent may be uncomfortable bursting the bubble, but will eventually confirm the truth that the child has already intuited. If that same child questioned the existance of God, most parents would fight tooth and nail to maintain the child's belief in God, even an adult who questions the existance of God is up against societal and cultural pressure to conform (at least in many situations).

When an atheist compares a belief in God to a belief in Santa Claus, the comparison is to two characters that the atheist sees no objective evidence for the existance of. The child believes in Santa because people that he trusts has told him that Santa exists and the existance of Santa seems to fit the facts as he knows them, or at least doesn't contradict his view of reality. Usually someone believes in God because someone that they trust has told them that God exists and the existance of a God seems to be consistant with how they view the world. Belief of God is maintained as the believer fits and interprets experiences in light of the God paradigm.

To get away from the analogy for a bit, in my observation, belief in God is completely subjective. It all comes down to what one personally, deep inside, feels and experiences. If you talk with God, or have a relationship with Jesus, that experience, that relationship cannot be shown to another person. If I have a relationship with my family, you can take photos of us together, copy our emails, listen to our phone conversations - that part of it is objective, anyone can see it. The subjective part is that you can't discern, except by guessing and making assumptions, how I really feel about that person, if I really love that person. A relationship with God is like the second part, all subjective. I don't believe that subjective is necessarily any less real than objective, just that all that we have is someone's word that it exists, you can't point to it and say, "See! There's God!".

Being that "knowing" God is subjective, it is also my observation that people interpret things in ways that make the most sense to them. The same experience may be interpreted by Suda as God, by my friend Scott as space aliens, by Bramble as the Goddess, by a Hindu as Ganesh, by an atheist as a manifestation of chance, or a natural occurence. There's no objective reason to accept that anything unexplained is God, or aliens or anything else. A theist will insert his god or other metaphysical explanation, an atheist will not.

From an atheist point of view, believing in a god is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus, there's no objective evidence for either. I would imagine that a Christian would have trouble with this analogy, since they are convinced that God does exist, but from an atheist point of view, it makes good sense.

More later :B)

Edited November 6, 2007 by Oakspear

[brideofjc]

Modern Wiccan and pagans often do believe in the old pagan gods, Native American spirits etc, and some Christians do think it is false and deluded etc. There is a thread on this forum right now that shows that( The Wright article thread.)

And some pagans think that Santa Claus is a modern representation of Odin, the All father etc. Yule is a sacred time for them.

As far as Sunesis post-- I was in TWI for twenty years. I was never taught it was okay to 'talk to Jesus' we prayed to God in the name of Jesus Christ, the type of relationship she describes was not part of my Chrisitian experience.

There was no 'I reject you Jesus' type thought/action etc. Things evolved.

I also, in TWI was told that one couldn't "talk to Jesus" and in 1993, The Lord Yeshua was watching over me so to speak and I really wanted to quit smoking. Anyway, I tentatively looked up at my ceiling and said, "Father God, I don't know if this is going to anger you, but LORD Jesus, please help me quit smoking. I don't know if I'm supposed to talk to you but there it is. The next day I waited for the nicotine fits to hit, and they never did. I received a miracle that day from the LORD JESUS and I haven't stopped speaking to HIM yet, and neither has HE stopped speaking with me.

[Oakspear]

Now the Santa Claus/God analogy may strike some as insulting, and some may bring up as Suda did, that you couldn't find a mentally competant adult who still believed in Santa. That's the point of that kind of analogy, to jar you into thinking, to point out that if you want to believe in one kind of "person" whose existance cannot be objectively verified, i.e. God, then why not believe in another, i.e. Santa Claus?

More on subjectivity. One of TWI's teachings was the Law of Believing (you know, the one that worked for "saint & sinner" alike?) which you'll find in similar forms in all kinds of literature, including non-Christian. Some of those folks claim similar results to those claimed by Christians when they pray to God (or Jesus). So when a Christian prays, is (1) God (or Jesus) answering the prayer or (2) Is the "Law of Believing" or Magick or some other impersonal force kicking in or (3) Is some other god, who doesn't care what you call him or her, answering the prayer? Or when the non-Christian prays or casts a spell or "believes" and gets the desired results is it (2) or (3) from above or is God or Jesus answering the prayer, not really caring whether they are recognized as supreme being or not?

Taken together logically, it comes back to one deciding, either in advance or in hindsight, what the framework will be and hanging their individual subjective experiences on it.

[Oakspear]

For extra credit reading I recommend "Hogfather" by Terry Pratchett

[Bramble]

"Small Gods" by TP is also good. Perhaps an alternative read?

[Oakspear]

Anything by Pratchett is good..."Hogfather" deals specifically with his version of Father Christmas though

[Sushi]

This doesn't deal directly with the analogy at hand, but "The Incarnations Of Immortality" by Piers Anthony is a good read. The seven book series deals with the major events in life as though mortals became immortal and have to learn how to be Death, Nature, etc. The first book is called, "Death Rides A Pale Horse".

To me, it is just as reasonable explanation for how the world works as any other religious text.

[Mister P-Mosh]

This doesn't deal directly with the analogy at hand, but "The Incarnations Of Immortality" by Piers Anthony is a good read. The seven book series deals with the major events in life as though mortals became immortal and have to learn how to be Death, Nature, etc. The first book is called, "Death Rides A Pale Horse".

To me, it is just as reasonable explanation for how the world works as any other religious text.

I liked that series quite a bit but it seems a bit juvenile now for some reason. It's like the attitudes of the deities are going through the emotional problems of teenagers. By the way, have you read all of the books? This includes the last two, where the devil and the Christian god are replaced.

[Sushi]

Granted, it's been a while, but yes, I did read the whole series, Mr. P. The only complaint I have is, they were written as stand alone books. The repetition was sometimes detracting.

Actually, I would like to see the books made into a movie, but feel it would have to be too watered down.

It's like the attitudes of the deities are going through the emotional problems of teenagers

Assuming (yes, I know what happens when one assumes) there were gods, don't you find them a bit capricious?

[Mister P-Mosh]

Granted, it's been a while, but yes, I did read the whole series, Mr. P. The only complaint I have is, they were written as stand alone books. The repetition was sometimes detracting.

Agreed. Since they are so cheap though, I picked up the whole series and read them over the span of a few years mixed in with other things, so the repetition didn't bother me too much.

Actually, I would like to see the books made into a movie, but feel it would have to be too watered down.

Assuming (yes, I know what happens when one assumes) there were gods, don't you find them a bit capricious?

Definitely, but I think that could result in an entirely new topic. The Jehovah of the old testament is right up there with the Greek gods.