Which is one reason why I'm surprised at his obviously flawed reasonings re: atheists. Frankly, I expected better, more informed conclusions on this topic, based on his thoroughness in his work about TWI.
On the other hand, I'm not really surprised, as such is standard fare among a lot of ministers when they speak of atheism, ... with the same low quality level of researching skills as I indicated re: Juedes.
Makes me wish I never had a son. It's cruel to bring someone into this craphole of a world.
:blink: Why does what other people believe have anything to do with what you teach your children? :unsure:
You, too, are a kind, wise, normally logical thinker. I don't understand where all the vehemence, fear and disdain toward non-Christians comes from with y'all. I really don't.
Have atheists killed your family members or something? Do you have atheists in your face on a regular basis? Do you have any proof that the world is going to hell in a hand basket because there are atheists in it (real proof)?
Does it concern you that organized religion has completely and utterly alienated and turned so many people away from God? Not all atheists are atheists because of experiences with organized religion, but there are quite a few who are. What's so wrong with Christianity that it can't even keep the people it does "get"?(Maybe that should be a whole 'nother thread)
Yeah, the fact that Atheism has no set of beliefs other than there is no God or gods, leaves a lot up to speculation. That's unfortunate when people read into it "amoral people" verus "moral people who have left God behind". I'm sure it has it's share of both kinds of people, as do all the religious organizations.
Suda
Perzackly, Suda!
Some people are "good" and some people are "bad" regardless of what their personal beliefs about religion, gods, God, etc.
Even among "Christians" there is much diversity of belief.
quote: If religion is man-made, that means that morals are man-made as well.
Wow. I totally agree. I wish this concept was acceptable on other threads, like the ones that say VP is the devil.
But as to the topic of this thread, I don't think morality is a 24/7 thing. Sure, we all take our beliefs wherever we go, but many situations are not moral just by themselves. For instance, going shopping. I spend about 1 hour going grocery shopping every week. There's no 'right or wrong' about this activity; I'm just getting groceries.
We all spend many hours doing many activities that have no moral ramifications at all, so Christians and atheists can mingle with no ill effect whatsoever. But during those times when morality, man made or not, is the prime governing value in our decision making, how much impact does this have? Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump? Atheism may be more of a system of non belief than a system of belief, but atheists are just as moral (conscious of right and wrong) as Christians.
IMO the existence, prosperity, and quality of life of the USA is strong evidence that Christian based morals at the government level isn't the worst thing that could happen to a country.
IMO the existence, prosperity, and quality of life of the USA is strong evidence that Christian based morals at the government level isn't the worst thing that could happen to a country.
And where did you get this ridiculous idea that there are Christian based morals at the government level, what with all the lying, scandals, pre-emptive wars, and George W. Bush? ..... or are all those attributes of Christian based morals at the government level? <_<
:blink: Why does what other people believe have anything to do with what you teach your children? :unsure:
You, too, are a kind, wise, normally logical thinker. I don't understand where all the vehemence, fear and disdain toward non-Christians comes from with y'all. I really don't.
Have atheists killed your family members or something? Do you have atheists in your face on a regular basis? Do you have any proof that the world is going to hell in a hand basket because there are atheists in it (real proof)?
Does it concern you that organized religion has completely and utterly alienated and turned so many people away from God? Not all atheists are atheists because of experiences with organized religion, but there are quite a few who are. What's so wrong with Christianity that it can't even keep the people it does "get"?(Maybe that should be a whole 'nother thread)
you're saying there was a time when earth wasn't hell? I don't care what anyone thinks. Consciousness stinks.
You're attempting to define atheists in terms of Christianity, which is understandable, since you are a Christian minister and this is a culture where Christians are the majority.
Atheism is an absence of theism, not an opposition to theism.
In the Newsweek article that you mentioned, religious and non-religious folks were compared and contrasted. There you have made the error (maybe Newsweek did as well) of equating "non-religious" with "atheist".
There are many people who grew up as a member of a church, had religious values instilled in them, attended services regularly but who no longer participate in the affairs of their church or even think too much about it. Most of these people would be surprised or even insulted if you suggested that they were atheists or even non-Christian.
I have an aunt and uncle who left their curch over its stance against gays, since they have a gay son. This couple still believes in God, still prays, still looks forward to an afterlife in heaven etc, etc, but they are no longer religious in the sense that they participate in a church.
Among the people that I know and work with, a person can say that they aren't religious and not draw a second glance, but say that you're an atheist, or even a non-Christian and you're a curiosity.
Seriously? A major factor for you wanting to bring a kid into the world was eternal life? Non-existence is better than existence with an end?
Why not? (He was an accident and a nice one). No, I refuse to have more kids until I can find some hope that they can have more than what this life has to offer.
No, I refuse to have more kids until I can find some hope that they can have more than what this life has to offer.
So unless life here is like a perfect Candyland, then this world sucks totally, is that it?
Besides, don't believers like you once say that this world is so wonderous and complex and beautiful, that it had to have a Creator? ... And now you say that life here sucks??
So unless life here is like a perfect Candyland, then this world sucks totally, is that it?
Besides, don't believers like you once say that this world is so wonderous and complex and beautiful, that it had to have a Creator? ... And now you say that life here sucks??
Make up you're mind, willya?
You want me to stay fixed on a position despite all argument?
I also once believe that lcm was the MOGFART. And that if I listened real carefully god would talk to me.
Why not? (He was an accident and a nice one). No, I refuse to have more kids until I can find some hope that they can have more than what this life has to offer.
Hey, it's not a fun transition.
No, it's not always fun, is it? :(
I'm still looking and searching and trying to figure things out.... you'd think I might have some answers by now, but, ya know what? I'm also coming to terms with the fact that I may never have answers and that's okay, too.
Why do we need hope? What do we need hope in? Hope for?
Is there anything inherently wrong with looking at things from the "what it is" viewpoint and just making the best of it while we're here? *shrug* I dunno....
I have been reading more thoroughly Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things and, while it's rather disheartening in some ways, in other ways I like feeling like I'm learning better reasoning and logic skills if nothing else.
It hasn't stopped me from becoming a graphologist, level two Reiki practitioner, ordained minister or any other number of things in my own personal quest. I'm enjoying the journey regardless of where it ends up.
She's a very well-respected, reputable neuro-something scientist and her scientific research has led her to believe that there absolutely, positively has to be a God/Supreme Being/Whatchamacallit - just not necessarily what traditional Judeo-Christianity teaches.
Many atheists' posts on different boards I've been on point out the many imperfections of "creation". Basically, either god is dumb or doesn't exist. The universe and all life exists because of some statistical probability. It's just math.
On occasion a creationist shows up, who is eventually dubbed crazy by atheists and theists alike. The theistic evolutionists are present, but only to "prove" evolution. They say they can reconcile the bible with evolution but so far, just talk. They're sideline sitters doing mental gymnastics (remeniscient(sp?) of twi). It's the atheists doing all the real work. The either extremists mentallity or general apathy of the Christians said a lot to me: Science and religion just don't mix. Science favors the atheist.
Go look website of the school Behe works at, they almost regret to admit he works there, they apologize for his presence. (and he believes in the old earth, and doesn't particularly care if evolution is true or not). Religion and anything that smells of it is on a short leash. I still don't see evolution as a fact. I won't tell anyone, it's academic suicide. Perhaps the info I need will come to change my "evil creationist mindset". Creationists are outgunned just like twi was. Why should I trust them?
Leaving twi worked for me. So naturally, squashing any idea that there's a supernatural sounds like the next step for me. I'm slowly trying to see things from an atheistic view. Sorry if that confuses you.
I just read a Newsweek article last week (not a Christian publication) that did link religion and morality. The article noted that 60% of students admit to cheating (and how many more don't admit to it?). The studies stated that cheating was linked to nonreligious to not cheating was linked to being religious. It did not say, nor do I mean to say, that 100% of religious people are always honest and 100% of nonreligious are cheaters, but that there is a significant link between the two.
On the other hand, studies have shown that students of a religious nature who make "chastity vows" are just as likely as other students to engage in premarital sex, and they are more likely to engage in risky sexual activities such as sex without a condom, anal sex, etc. Does this mean that Christianity fails, since Christian students are more likely to try anal sex than non-religious students?
One reason for this is that people have what the Bible calls a sinful nature. That's hard to deny. Parents typically have to teach their children to share, not to be selfish, for example. Selfish comes naturally. What moral religions such as Crhistianity do is to hem it in. The fact that many people who claim to be religious don't actually follow Biblical morality doesn't mean that religion is bad in itself. In fact, if you say that such people are bad because they don't follow Biblical principles, you're indirectly admitting that the religious moral standards are in fact good.
It's not hard to deny. While we humans are not perfect, I have a hard time believing that my infant daughter is a "sinner" since she is not capable of being responsible for her own actions yet. You have to choose to do wrong to be a "sinner", at least in my atheist view of things.
As far as the rest, you are the one saying that biblical morality is good and that people should follow it. What us non-religious folks think is that it's hypocrisy for them to demand we follow their morals while they don't practice what they preach.
Some of the posts above seem to use some very inflamatory terms to describe religious and/or Christian people, which surprised me coming from such reasonable atheist/ agnostics as yourselves.
From what I've seen, you have been the one who brought the inflammatory writings to this thread. You come here and make false statements about atheists and non-Christians, and let your ego get in the way of seeing anything but your version of Christianity as being ok.
quote: If religion is man-made, that means that morals are man-made as well.
Wow. I totally agree. I wish this concept was acceptable on other threads, like the ones that say VP is the devil.
But as to the topic of this thread, I don't think morality is a 24/7 thing. Sure, we all take our beliefs wherever we go, but many situations are not moral just by themselves. For instance, going shopping. I spend about 1 hour going grocery shopping every week. There's no 'right or wrong' about this activity; I'm just getting groceries.
We all spend many hours doing many activities that have no moral ramifications at all, so Christians and atheists can mingle with no ill effect whatsoever. But during those times when morality, man made or not, is the prime governing value in our decision making, how much impact does this have? Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump? Atheism may be more of a system of non belief than a system of belief, but atheists are just as moral (conscious of right and wrong) as Christians.
I'm glad you also see things this way. However, I would clarify something. Most people are able to go through life doing the right thing by default most of the time. For example, you mentioned buying groceries as having no moral ramifications. I would say that for some people with mental problems, the fact that you are buying rather than stealing is a choice of morality. While normal people like us may not think about these two options, there are some people for whom it is a problem, and they need a moral code dictated to them in order to keep functioning in society.
IMO the existence, prosperity, and quality of life of the USA is strong evidence that Christian based morals at the government level isn't the worst thing that could happen to a country.
I don't see any indication that the U.S. has "Christian based morals", but instead morals based on natural order and philosophical principals from many different societies. Much of our government is based on the ancient Greeks, and they worshiped Zeus and Athena.
I'm talking about the fact that in the USA anybody basically can start a business, plus people who ruthlessly exploit others for their own gain are despised, well, more so than in nations with dictators. Basically, the individual has rights that are recognized. IMO that is Christian. Sure, other governments have allowed this in history, but no nation has ever had the 'total package' like the US has. I've talked to people born and raised outside the US and a lot of them are amazed at how much these freedoms are taken for granted here.
:huh: How the heck is any of that attributable to christianity?
Sounds like a democracy that's working the way it's supposed to. I do happen to think the US is the greatest place on Earth, but I do not think it has anything to do with our government having a "christian foundation." That's highly inaccurate.
I see it more as a choice between simplicity and various levels of confusion.
... that approach would be 'viable' only if you were using the 'Keep it simple, stupid' mindset.
Well, I've got another alternative. Keep it Real. Ie., sometimes things are simple. Sometimes things are complex. Not all things true is going to be simple. Some things are, but others are more complex that don't fit on a pithy saying. And just because its complex doesn't require that it has to be confusing.
Knowing this helps me to better deal with life and reality.
TWI gave us a lot of Black & White thinking patterns, standards and rules. Life just really isn't so black & white. I no longer think in terms of "is there a god or no?" and all the other variations.... we all have our "grey" areas, unknowns, etc.... but there's so much variety, prismatic versions of "belief" that can be had.
It's just not an "all or nothing" 'thing' like TWI would have us to believe.
Did you see the movie "Happy Feet"? I got the impression from that movie (and others) that our culture in general wants to slowly squeeze out religion. This was a movie for children, was it not?
it seems that you're maybe in a kinda delicate mental state right now, trying to make sense of a lot of years spent in blind obeisance to WayWorld, yet confronted by obvious contradictory information from real life. Yes, no?
Anyway, been there, done that.
But, though I haven't seen the movie, does presenting a non-theist view of life automatically mean "wrong"?
Why should we give religiousity the moral highground and preferred status right out of the box? Does it really warrent it?
What if life ISN"T all spelled out, neat and tidy like, within the pages of some writ deemed "holy"? What if it all really IS just superstition carried to a ridiculous degree?
Shouldn't religion have to prove it's credibility BEFORE we going basing our lives and actions on it?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
17
16
29
Popular Days
Oct 27
29
Oct 21
28
Oct 26
23
Oct 22
20
Top Posters In This Topic
sky4it 15 posts
Belle 17 posts
Oakspear 16 posts
Suda 29 posts
Popular Days
Oct 27 2007
29 posts
Oct 21 2007
28 posts
Oct 26 2007
23 posts
Oct 22 2007
20 posts
Popular Posts
George Aar
I came to Wayworld as an agnostic. I had spent some 20 years or so of my youth in either a Lutheran Church or the Methodist Reformed (now ask me if I could tell the difference) and was pretty much tir
Belle
Gotcha. Thanks. :) And, I agree.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
:blink: Why does what other people believe have anything to do with what you teach your children? :unsure:
You, too, are a kind, wise, normally logical thinker. I don't understand where all the vehemence, fear and disdain toward non-Christians comes from with y'all. I really don't.
Have atheists killed your family members or something? Do you have atheists in your face on a regular basis? Do you have any proof that the world is going to hell in a hand basket because there are atheists in it (real proof)?
Does it concern you that organized religion has completely and utterly alienated and turned so many people away from God? Not all atheists are atheists because of experiences with organized religion, but there are quite a few who are. What's so wrong with Christianity that it can't even keep the people it does "get"? (Maybe that should be a whole 'nother thread)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Perzackly, Suda!
Some people are "good" and some people are "bad" regardless of what their personal beliefs about religion, gods, God, etc.
Even among "Christians" there is much diversity of belief.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: If religion is man-made, that means that morals are man-made as well.
Wow. I totally agree. I wish this concept was acceptable on other threads, like the ones that say VP is the devil.
But as to the topic of this thread, I don't think morality is a 24/7 thing. Sure, we all take our beliefs wherever we go, but many situations are not moral just by themselves. For instance, going shopping. I spend about 1 hour going grocery shopping every week. There's no 'right or wrong' about this activity; I'm just getting groceries.
We all spend many hours doing many activities that have no moral ramifications at all, so Christians and atheists can mingle with no ill effect whatsoever. But during those times when morality, man made or not, is the prime governing value in our decision making, how much impact does this have? Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump? Atheism may be more of a system of non belief than a system of belief, but atheists are just as moral (conscious of right and wrong) as Christians.
IMO the existence, prosperity, and quality of life of the USA is strong evidence that Christian based morals at the government level isn't the worst thing that could happen to a country.
Edited by johniamLink to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
And where did you get this ridiculous idea that there are Christian based morals at the government level, what with all the lying, scandals, pre-emptive wars, and George W. Bush? ..... or are all those attributes of Christian based morals at the government level? <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
you're saying there was a time when earth wasn't hell? I don't care what anyone thinks. Consciousness stinks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Theists see morality and ethics deriving from a deity.
Atheists see morality and ethics deriving from the mind of man.
Both are just as free as the other to follow or ignore morality and ethics.
Most ethical system seem to end up being about the same, no matter what religion or philosophy they come from.
***********************************************************
Johnj:
You're attempting to define atheists in terms of Christianity, which is understandable, since you are a Christian minister and this is a culture where Christians are the majority.
Atheism is an absence of theism, not an opposition to theism.
In the Newsweek article that you mentioned, religious and non-religious folks were compared and contrasted. There you have made the error (maybe Newsweek did as well) of equating "non-religious" with "atheist".
There are many people who grew up as a member of a church, had religious values instilled in them, attended services regularly but who no longer participate in the affairs of their church or even think too much about it. Most of these people would be surprised or even insulted if you suggested that they were atheists or even non-Christian.
I have an aunt and uncle who left their curch over its stance against gays, since they have a gay son. This couple still believes in God, still prays, still looks forward to an afterlife in heaven etc, etc, but they are no longer religious in the sense that they participate in a church.
Among the people that I know and work with, a person can say that they aren't religious and not draw a second glance, but say that you're an atheist, or even a non-Christian and you're a curiosity.
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Why not? (He was an accident and a nice one). No, I refuse to have more kids until I can find some hope that they can have more than what this life has to offer.
Hey, it's not a fun transition.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
So unless life here is like a perfect Candyland, then this world sucks totally, is that it?
Besides, don't believers like you once say that this world is so wonderous and complex and beautiful, that it had to have a Creator? ... And now you say that life here sucks??
Make up you're mind, willya?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
You want me to stay fixed on a position despite all argument?
I also once believe that lcm was the MOGFART. And that if I listened real carefully god would talk to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
No, it's not always fun, is it? :(
I'm still looking and searching and trying to figure things out.... you'd think I might have some answers by now, but, ya know what? I'm also coming to terms with the fact that I may never have answers and that's okay, too.
Why do we need hope? What do we need hope in? Hope for?
Is there anything inherently wrong with looking at things from the "what it is" viewpoint and just making the best of it while we're here? *shrug* I dunno....
I have been reading more thoroughly Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things and, while it's rather disheartening in some ways, in other ways I like feeling like I'm learning better reasoning and logic skills if nothing else.
It hasn't stopped me from becoming a graphologist, level two Reiki practitioner, ordained minister or any other number of things in my own personal quest. I'm enjoying the journey regardless of where it ends up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
To throw some balance into things, Candace Pert wrote Molecules of Emotion (which I have read) and Everything You Need to Feel Go(o)d (which I am currently reading alongside Shermer's book).
She's a very well-respected, reputable neuro-something scientist and her scientific research has led her to believe that there absolutely, positively has to be a God/Supreme Being/Whatchamacallit - just not necessarily what traditional Judeo-Christianity teaches.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Garth,
Many atheists' posts on different boards I've been on point out the many imperfections of "creation". Basically, either god is dumb or doesn't exist. The universe and all life exists because of some statistical probability. It's just math.
On occasion a creationist shows up, who is eventually dubbed crazy by atheists and theists alike. The theistic evolutionists are present, but only to "prove" evolution. They say they can reconcile the bible with evolution but so far, just talk. They're sideline sitters doing mental gymnastics (remeniscient(sp?) of twi). It's the atheists doing all the real work. The either extremists mentallity or general apathy of the Christians said a lot to me: Science and religion just don't mix. Science favors the atheist.
Go look website of the school Behe works at, they almost regret to admit he works there, they apologize for his presence. (and he believes in the old earth, and doesn't particularly care if evolution is true or not). Religion and anything that smells of it is on a short leash. I still don't see evolution as a fact. I won't tell anyone, it's academic suicide. Perhaps the info I need will come to change my "evil creationist mindset". Creationists are outgunned just like twi was. Why should I trust them?
Leaving twi worked for me. So naturally, squashing any idea that there's a supernatural sounds like the next step for me. I'm slowly trying to see things from an atheistic view. Sorry if that confuses you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
There really are more than two choices of belief. It really doesn't have to be fundamentalist Bible Literalist Christian or athiest.
Black and white thinking. That would be an interesting topic of discussion.
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
On the other hand, studies have shown that students of a religious nature who make "chastity vows" are just as likely as other students to engage in premarital sex, and they are more likely to engage in risky sexual activities such as sex without a condom, anal sex, etc. Does this mean that Christianity fails, since Christian students are more likely to try anal sex than non-religious students?
It's not hard to deny. While we humans are not perfect, I have a hard time believing that my infant daughter is a "sinner" since she is not capable of being responsible for her own actions yet. You have to choose to do wrong to be a "sinner", at least in my atheist view of things.
As far as the rest, you are the one saying that biblical morality is good and that people should follow it. What us non-religious folks think is that it's hypocrisy for them to demand we follow their morals while they don't practice what they preach.
From what I've seen, you have been the one who brought the inflammatory writings to this thread. You come here and make false statements about atheists and non-Christians, and let your ego get in the way of seeing anything but your version of Christianity as being ok.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
I'm glad you also see things this way. However, I would clarify something. Most people are able to go through life doing the right thing by default most of the time. For example, you mentioned buying groceries as having no moral ramifications. I would say that for some people with mental problems, the fact that you are buying rather than stealing is a choice of morality. While normal people like us may not think about these two options, there are some people for whom it is a problem, and they need a moral code dictated to them in order to keep functioning in society.
I don't see any indication that the U.S. has "Christian based morals", but instead morals based on natural order and philosophical principals from many different societies. Much of our government is based on the ancient Greeks, and they worshiped Zeus and Athena.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
I'm talking about the fact that in the USA anybody basically can start a business, plus people who ruthlessly exploit others for their own gain are despised, well, more so than in nations with dictators. Basically, the individual has rights that are recognized. IMO that is Christian. Sure, other governments have allowed this in history, but no nation has ever had the 'total package' like the US has. I've talked to people born and raised outside the US and a lot of them are amazed at how much these freedoms are taken for granted here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
:huh: How the heck is any of that attributable to christianity?
Sounds like a democracy that's working the way it's supposed to. I do happen to think the US is the greatest place on Earth, but I do not think it has anything to do with our government having a "christian foundation." That's highly inaccurate.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I see it more as a choice between simplicity and various levels of confusion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
... that approach would be 'viable' only if you were using the 'Keep it simple, stupid' mindset.
Well, I've got another alternative. Keep it Real. Ie., sometimes things are simple. Sometimes things are complex. Not all things true is going to be simple. Some things are, but others are more complex that don't fit on a pithy saying. And just because its complex doesn't require that it has to be confusing.
Knowing this helps me to better deal with life and reality.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
religion/gods doesn't pay the bills
religion/gods doesn't put food on the table
religion/gods doesn't belong in gov't
religion/gods doesn't belong in science
religion/gods doesn't do anything really, unless my mind wants it to.
to try and cram religion/gods into life is an over complication. You can make it work with a lot of labor, but why?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
(((((Bolshevik)))))
TWI gave us a lot of Black & White thinking patterns, standards and rules. Life just really isn't so black & white. I no longer think in terms of "is there a god or no?" and all the other variations.... we all have our "grey" areas, unknowns, etc.... but there's so much variety, prismatic versions of "belief" that can be had.
It's just not an "all or nothing" 'thing' like TWI would have us to believe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Did you see the movie "Happy Feet"? I got the impression from that movie (and others) that our culture in general wants to slowly squeeze out religion. This was a movie for children, was it not?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
I dunno, Bolshevik,
it seems that you're maybe in a kinda delicate mental state right now, trying to make sense of a lot of years spent in blind obeisance to WayWorld, yet confronted by obvious contradictory information from real life. Yes, no?
Anyway, been there, done that.
But, though I haven't seen the movie, does presenting a non-theist view of life automatically mean "wrong"?
Why should we give religiousity the moral highground and preferred status right out of the box? Does it really warrent it?
What if life ISN"T all spelled out, neat and tidy like, within the pages of some writ deemed "holy"? What if it all really IS just superstition carried to a ridiculous degree?
Shouldn't religion have to prove it's credibility BEFORE we going basing our lives and actions on it?
Like I said, I dunno...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.