Ok, Mike...............against my better judgement................here we go again............
"is this an attack? an accusation?"....................no, mike..........these are questions, that's all!.............questions "inspired" by what and how you post........questions, which, btw, yet remain unanswered by you!.............and, no.........i'm not "trying to take back" anything!!..............my "sign off'.......peace........is indeed genuine!............seems to me you could use some..................my genuine prayer for you is "peace', mike!
i phrased my questions to you the way i did, because you refused to answer them!..........i determined to keep them specific and simple..........but, since answering them does not seem to fit your agenda,............. i suppose expecting a straight answer from you without some longwinded vicspeak rap is indeed, "too much to ask"!...........as your rap following your question about my phraseology proves.............i was just trying to help you stay on topic..........and, to get you to give some straight answers from Mike................not just another vic transcript.............
real dialogue is a 2-way street, mike..............thus far, you seem capable only of unidirectional vicspeak, which pre-empts anyone here from participating in any meaningful, genuine, reality-based dialogue with you.............you still have the opportunity to honestly answer those questions, mike!..........if you so choose.......
but, please..........spare us another vicspeak reply..........it would reveal nothing more than your being helplessly lost in a world of your own creation..........a world from which you are incapable of dialogueing with anyone out here in the real world, speaking real english in order to interact respectfully with real people..........sometimes, mike.............reality bites!!...................again, i bid you...........................peace.
There may be more peace coming from my side than you know. It’s my peace that allows me to stand my ground unflinchingly in the face of many challenges and over many years, and believe me, your challenges have been comparatively mild.
Sometimes I don’t answer questions because I don’t like the way they’re put, or the implications they carry. Strip your questions of venom and hooks and we might get farther. You're trying to get too much done with your questions. They are posed and poised to teach me something I refuse to accept. They're too loaded for my taste.
You have approached me as an insider with far more insight and information than I. I don’t buy it. Sometimes being closer to the trees obscures the forest. Why do you think a prophet lacks honor, as the scripture says, in his own country and among his own people? That's a teaching question you many not want to learn from.
I had my inside looks and my looks from a distance. Every point you brought up I’ve been over countless times both here and long before I started posting here. I’ve been at this for ten years now, so there are few surprises you can hand me. On the other hand, you haven’t even begun to see all of my cards, even if you read all three of those colossal threads doojable and I linked you to.
I like talking to people like you because I respect the work for God you did before you got talked out of it, and because I’m ravenously collecting and assimilating the facts and the history of what all happened to us. If that is an attitude of condescension on your part I suspect as you talk to me, a poor deluded kid, then you will be eventually exasperated. If you think you know it all because you were there at an early date then I feel sorry for your inability to learn in the face of new data. I have that new data in large amounts.
Oh yes, I want to be the man VPW knew and wished to be. It's a noble calling and there are many hearing it.
is it just me? does anyone hear mikes statements about himself as so much better of and at everything than anyone eles on earth? except those who chose to agree with him?
VPW recommended "how to win friends and influence people" to his followers a highly reccomended book by twi, written by dale carnegie spelling but his classes are still very popular today many years after his death.
ever read them Mike? vpw liked them.
By reading the manner you write clearly your not doing as he suggests.
your sound arrogant and rude and mean .
nothing personal and my opinion , not how the dr. thought it should be for those who listened to his reccomendations.
i think you disobeyed .
the scary part of your idea waysider is it doesnt work for those who really hate who they are, because bottom line they probably have a darn good reason for feeling so much fear and need to deny truth within because it is to much to face. for them for anybody.
I hadn't had much contact with FGW while I was in Fellowlaborers. I think he came and spoke on a FLO Night once, but it may have been first year. Waysider may remember.
In the fall of 1977 I had just gotten married and set up housekeeping in Athens, OH so I had no idea what was going on. I was shocked that Uncle Harry had died at all. I didn't even know he was sick.
If I were a Wierwille, I would be interested in some genetic testing to see if there was a familial inclination to cancer. Although come to think of it, at least VPW and DEW smoked, which can be an encouragement to the human body to produce more than one kind of cancer, i.e., lung, throat, sinus, and even sometimes ovarian cancer are more common in smokers than non-smokers. The pollutants in cigarette smoke permeate the human body. Melanoma is caused by overexposure to ultraviolet rays and can metastasize internally all over the body. Many cancers are not definitely linked to anything, and appear to be genetically influenced if not outright hereditary.
I had always understood from the "teachings" of VPW that he taught that cancer was caused by devil spirits. Thanks for the documentation, Waysider.
I worked in a cancer hospital for nine years. I learned a lot. Cancer is not one disease, it's over six hundred. Some are easy to cure; some are 100% terminal, i.e. a very rare form of leukemia that only affects infants and toddlers. It's basically an uncontrolled growth of cells, sometimes due to an irritant such as tobacco smoke or bad, nonfiber diet which can contribute to colon cancer.
If all those patients and some of my coworkers who had had cancer or were currently battling the disease had been possessed with devil spirits, I think God would have told me to transfer out of that place, cast the boogers out (which would have caused no small stir), or do something else about it.
And one more thing I noticed: When a patient died, the cancerous tumors within the patient died too. So how can we say the disease has life of itself? Huh? I mean, 'scuse me if I'm not exhibiting in-depth spiritual awareness and perception, but it was very obvious when a patient died. They were dead. They had no cardiorespiratory or neuromuscular functions. Their obituitary appeared in the local paper and their tearful relatives called in to cancel the next followup. The cancer didn't come in to keep the appointment either, because the cancer died with the rest of the patient. <_<
real dialogue is a 2-way street, mike..............thus far, you seem capable only of unidirectional vicspeak, which pre-empts anyone here from participating in any meaningful, genuine, reality-based dialogue with you....
ahh... there's the rub DWBH! reality-based!!! You see Mike lives in reality... but it is an alternate reality to that within which we all live... if you'd really like some volumenous reading venture on down to the dungeon areas and you'll find lots and lots of "Mike's Reality"... it would be quite disconcerting if it were true but fortunately it only lives in Mike's mind...
Mike hate's it when I post this, but maybe it will save you a few hours (I haven't posted this since 2006, and I hope it doesn't get this thread relegated to the dungeon):
Here is the abbreviated version (Mike asked me to not use the term 'synopsis') so you won't have to lose your sight and mind reading all of his posts:
Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.*
Mike has stated that PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Mike has stated that you just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
*as of 5/3/06 Mike has now 'distanced' from that statement, however he would like the reader to know that he considers PFAL to be revelation from God and equal to the revelation from God in the Bible.
These are his statements of belief that are supplied for the reader because if you ask Mike directly what his statements of belief are he will never give you a direct answer. Mike has made all of these statements on the boards here at the GSC. Mike was directly asked about every single statement, in context, at the time the statements were made. Mike has elected to never answer/address them directly with anything more than "because I said so" or "the only way you will ever know the answers is to "master" PFAL using only techniques ascribed to by Mike... and Mike will most likely treat you like a piece of dirt while doing so.
Please feel free, gentle reader, to ask Mike directly about any of these. Maybe you will get a direct answer (if you do, it will be the first time).
doojable,
I've long ago and many times said this, that I am done with the search process and the big decision process, and am totally commited to mastering PFAL. I guess I should say it regularly for those who hadn't yet heard and think there is any chance of convicing me otherwise. There is no chance whatsoever.
There are other things I am flexable with and can change my mind on, but not on this Word God taught Dr and Dr put into written form for us. I've even posted many times that I've closed my mind on this issue, and am proud of it. To answer WW on his "Navelite" thread, yes, I am biased on this, but at least I admit it.
Is there anything in your life that you are totally sold on? ...that you will never change on?
Did I mention that Mike actually believes he has a physical Christ growing inside of him?
We now return you to our regularly scheduled program...
""Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.*
Mike has stated that PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Mike has stated that you just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death. ""
Mike. Do you really believe these things? I mean its ok if you used to and don't now, and its ok if you still do. Im just curious. I like to get as much first hand info as possible.
nandon... it's all down there in the dungeon... er... doctrinal area... look up a few of the long threads with plaf in the title and you'll find all of those things stated by Mike... of course, you may have to sift through a couple of thousand posts... (that's why we provide the 'recap' as a public service...
nandon... it's all down there in the dungeon... er... doctrinal area... look up a few of the long threads with plaf in the title and you'll find all of those things stated by Mike... of course, you may have to sift through a couple of thousand posts... (that's why we provide the 'recap' as a public service...
Tom,
It's not ALL down there in the dungeon. I'd say probably half is missing, pruned. Was your public service just sloppy in not knowing this, or dishonest in hiding it? The public has a right to know.
Still, there IS a lot of context there in Doctrinal. Down there are the three threads doojable and I have linked to recently. Compared to the zero context or even reference links your "public service" neglected, there's TONS of context there. You didn’t even have the decency to supply those three links and lessen the public’s efforts to search there.
I think you’re only serving those of less depth than nandon’s, people willing to have others interpret and then supply them with the crucial information of their lives, people who don’t think that context is important and that paraphrasing is sufficient.
***
Mike. Do you really believe these things? I mean its ok if you used to and don't now, and its ok if you still do. Im just curious. I like to get as much first hand info as possible.
Hi nandon,
I appreciate your curiosity and your desire to hear something first-hand.
There is much immediate distortion in that list you asked about,
and even more distortion due to missing context.
It's a Poor Paraphrase.
In fact, there's SO much distortion, that it would help if we abbreviated the process by focusing on just one or two items, rather than the whole list.
Which of the items sparked your curiosity the most?
...and may I ask why?
...and might it be a conversation instead of an interrogation or worse yet, a mocky session? These two later kinds of discourses have been continually thrust upon me and the Doctrinal Dungeon DOES have a lot of that record.
nandon, is it ONLY out of curiosity that you ask? In that case PMs might suffice. Or do you want to make it a public thread thing? ...and if so, might I ask why?
I just want to see where your head is at a little before I invest much time into it. I KNOW where Tom’s head is at so I just let him wail.
I think what Tom was giving was only intended to be a synopsis.
Do you think there is anything in PFAL that might address the sex scandals?
BTW----The purpose of this thread was to determine whether Mr. Wierwille ever taught that cancer has a life of its own and whether he ever taught that it is caused by devil possession.
I appreciate your curiosity and your desire to hear something first-hand.
There is much immediate distortion in that list you asked about,
and even more distortion due to missing context.
It's a Poor Paraphrase.
In fact, there's SO much distortion, that it would help if we abbreviated the process by focusing on just one or two items, rather than the whole list.
Which of the items sparked your curiosity the most?
...and may I ask why?
...and might it be a conversation instead of an interrogation or worse yet, a mocky session? These two later kinds of discourses have been continually thrust upon me and the Doctrinal Dungeon DOES have a lot of that record.
nandon, is it ONLY out of curiosity that you ask? In that case PMs might suffice. Or do you want to make it a public thread thing? ...and if so, might I ask why?
I just want to see where your head is at a little before I invest much time into it. I KNOW where Tom’s head is at so I just let him wail.
mike,
you have your beliefs, and thats good with me, but some of those things sounds crazy. I'm just curious if you really believe them. as far as picking out a couple, how about these.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
""Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
you have your beliefs, and thats good with me, but some of those things sounds crazy. I'm just curious if you really believe them. as far as picking out a couple, how about these.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
""Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
no interrogation from me.
Hi nandon,
Ok, then let's have a conversation.
As to the first item, might I ask you (as part of my answer) a question? Sometimes asking a question with a question leads to a better answer than if it’s just answered outright. An interrogator would not want me to take the lead in my answering that way and would refuse such a request on my part to ask.
Here’s the question: Do you believe Jesus Christ is omniscient and therefore needs no learning? We got good at accepting the grammar of the sentence “Jesus Christ is not God” but we still retained many mental images of him AS IF HE WERE God. If Jesus Christ TRULY is omniscient, or truly needs no learning, THEN what I said could look crazy.
On the other hand, if he’s TRULY a man and not all-knowing, then it would be A LOT less crazy to think of him learning. Right?
***
Now as to your second question, let me ask again something of you.
Do you know where to find God’s Word in it’s exact form? I mean can you tell me where I can buy a copy of the AUTHORITATIVE Word of God? If you tell me something and I buy it, and then find that some passages are mis-translated then that wouldn’t count. I mean to ask can you find in the world today ANYTHING of the same status as the original manuscripts? I mean can you find anything in English that conveys EXACTLY what the original understanding was for Aramaic speaking believers 2000 years ago who were lucky enough to get their hands on an original?
So far, after two years or so of me asking posters here and elsewhere, no one here has been able to come up with an actual God-breathed document, especially one in English.
I ask them if they have a text that's BIGGER then them and all their theologian friends, a text that need never be altered and CAN never be altered, just believed and acted on.
Just the other day anotherdan admitted that he could find no such document. This means God’s written Word is gone, and all we have are approximations. God's written Word was lost several times in the OT. Did you know that? It was, or most of it was recovered, but for a time it WAS lost.
If there is no God-breathed text in existence at this point in time, then there would be a GREAT NEED for God to re-issue His Word, right?
Plus, there’s precedent for this. There were times when God’s Word was buried in various ways, and He re-issued it in various ways. He did that with His Word written in the stars when it reached a certain state of corruption after the Tower of Babel. This was not just a “reprint” type of re-issue, but it involved a MAJOR format change too.
Another re-issue of His Word can be seen in Jeremiah 36 where He did a “reprint” but then added many words as well, constituting another format change.
With this in mind, that God-reissuing His Word when He thinks it’s needed and would be believed, does it sound a little less crazy to hear that He did it again?
Do you see how this subject is a little deeper than Tom Strange was able to convey with his crazy sounding synopsis?
Do you think there is anything in PFAL that might address the sex scandals?
I Corinthians 13
The love of God thinketh no evil.
This is very difficult for some people, even long after the facts. It seems like there's often a juicy sensational pleasure people can sometimes get out of gossip and scandal.
Jesus Christ has been seated at the right hand of God for how long now? I'd say that as the head of the Body he's up to speed on God's Word and will.
I need something more than your say on that. We don't have ANY sense knowledge understanding as to what it means to be seated at the right hand of God. With God there IS NO TIME, so you can't even state that he's been there for such-and-such a length of time. He's been GONE from here for such-and-such a length of time, but we have no idea of any timespan THERE.
What you're saying is that being next to God he is just like God. But aren't WE seated in the same location seeing we are members of his body and seated in the heaven lies?
I know I still need to learn, AND it's still fun. Do you want to deny Jesus this fun? Even the angels, and they're up there too, desired to look into (learn) things that weren't written yet. Remember?
The problem with this logic is that the PFAL book and collaterals still POINT to the KJV. At best they are a commentary and not a "reformatting."
No. You missed another possibility.
In the NORM they would be a commentary or man-breathed Bible (version) aid.
AT BEST they are a God-breathed commentary and Bible aid, and therefore bigger than us AND unalterable AND the last word on the subject. Do you want to deny God the right to quote the KJV and comment on it?
Dunno about cancer but this thread is taking on a life of it's own.
Funny you should bring this up. So far, I’ve not seen an opening for this approach in a long time, plus I feel less competent to present this aspect of what I am studying. But since you brought it up, here goes.
I think there is much more contained in your jest than you know.
Remember how Jesus often tried to talk spiritually with his apostles, but they were not spiritual enough to get it? One example was when they were hungry and thought Jesus wanted food with equal passion? He had to remind them that his meat was to do the will of the Father.
Then a little later, with the woman by the well, he starts talking about water using the accepted Oriental custom for approaching women in public. But then he switches to spiritual water.
Still another example is where Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, until the apostles just COULDN’T get it and he had to translate that he was REALLY talking about the sleep of death.
Have you ever toyed SERIOUSLY with the idea that Dr was talking about the WORDS that are LIKE a cancer having a life of their own and of devil spirit origins?
There's something similar to this in the KJV.
2 Timothy 2:15-18
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Yes, I know canker is not the same as cancer, but it looks pretty darn close in some ways.
***
Page 14 of GMWD directs us to think of the possibility that beneath the sense knowledge message of Psalm 103 there are hidden truths, a hidden spiritual message. This came out in 1977 in book form. In Dr’s previous teachings he had warned against hidden meanings, but then it changed later on. My thinking is that prior to '77 we were DEFINITELY not ready to look for hidden spiritual meanings, but after that we had "graduated" to the level of the apostles in that we MIGHT get it. Sure, it's the case that we did NOT get it back then, but neither did the apostles in their first go-arounds with Jesus talking spiritual.
I know few people have spent much time thinking on this tack, so I think it deserves some time before it’s rejected outright. I wonder how much time it will take for some posters to reject it? I’m going on ten years now of looking into this tack.
I was first alerted to this approach when someone here showed me a surprising way of looking at Romans 1 where it’s not merely homosexual actions that are being condemned, but something much worse. I’m convinced this is what Dr was pointing at in his tirades against homosexuality, while we missed it, only receiving the sense knowledge understanding. Sure Dr probably helped some to later avoid AIDS and other problems with the sense knowledge teaching of Romans 1, but I now know he ALSO had a deeper meaning to point to there, and one that was to be pertinent to later times.
Then there was also a lot of talk in the TVTs about "spiritual adultery" that I never got to understand or fully examine, never seeing it in print, and rarely ever (IF ever) hearing it from Dr on tape. Five senses adultery, we all know, is pretty hurtful, but SPIRITUAL adultery is much worse and even more to be avoided.
What might we learn now if all those verbal teachings of Dr on cancer and devils were aimed at spiritual cancer, like the disease talked out in II Timothy?
Funny you should bring this up. So far, I’ve not seen an opening for this approach in a long time, plus I feel less competent to present this aspect of what I am studying. But since you brought it up, here goes.
I think there is much more contained in your jest than you know.
Remember how Jesus often tried to talk spiritually with his apostles, but they were not spiritual enough to get it? One example was when they were hungry and thought Jesus wanted food with equal passion. He had to remind them that his meat was to do the will of the Father.
Then a little later, with the woman by the well, he starts talking about water using the accepted Oriental custom for approaching women in public. But then he switches to spiritual water.
Still another example is where Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, until the apostles just COULDN’T get it and he had to translate that he was REALLY talking about the sleep of death.
Have you ever toyed SERIOUSLY with the idea that Dr was talking about the WORDS that do eat like a cancer having a life of their own and of devil spirit origins?
Page 14 of GMWD directs us to think of the possibility that beneath the sense knowledge message could be a hidden truth, a spiritual message. This came out in 1977 in book form. In Dr’s previous teachings he had warned against hidden meanings, but then it changed later on.
I know few people have spent much time thinking on this tack, so I think it deserves some time before it’s rejected outright. I wonder how much time it will take for some posters to reject it? I’m going on ten years now of looking into this tack.
I was first alerted to this approach when someone here showed me a surprising way of looking at Romans 1 where it’s not homosexual actions that is being condemned, but something much worse. I’m convinced this is what Dr was pointing at, while we missed it only receiving the sense knowledge understanding.
There was a lot of talk in the TVTs about spiritual adultery that I never got to understand or fully examine, never seeing it in print, and rarely ever (IF ever) hearing it from Dr on tape.
What might we learn if the verbal teachings of Dr on cancer and devils was aimed at spiritual cancer, like the one talked out in our KJV?
Who will be first to reject this?
Who thinks there’s more to discuss?
Good point Mike. It reminds of what 2 Timothy 2:17 says.
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Ok, Mike...............against my better judgement................here we go again............
"is this an attack? an accusation?"....................no, mike..........these are questions, that's all!.............questions "inspired" by what and how you post........questions, which, btw, yet remain unanswered by you!.............and, no.........i'm not "trying to take back" anything!!..............my "sign off'.......peace........is indeed genuine!............seems to me you could use some..................my genuine prayer for you is "peace', mike!
i phrased my questions to you the way i did, because you refused to answer them!..........i determined to keep them specific and simple..........but, since answering them does not seem to fit your agenda,............. i suppose expecting a straight answer from you without some longwinded vicspeak rap is indeed, "too much to ask"!...........as your rap following your question about my phraseology proves.............i was just trying to help you stay on topic..........and, to get you to give some straight answers from Mike................not just another vic transcript.............
real dialogue is a 2-way street, mike..............thus far, you seem capable only of unidirectional vicspeak, which pre-empts anyone here from participating in any meaningful, genuine, reality-based dialogue with you.............you still have the opportunity to honestly answer those questions, mike!..........if you so choose.......
but, please..........spare us another vicspeak reply..........it would reveal nothing more than your being helplessly lost in a world of your own creation..........a world from which you are incapable of dialogueing with anyone out here in the real world, speaking real english in order to interact respectfully with real people..........sometimes, mike.............reality bites!!...................again, i bid you...........................peace.
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Mike
Hi DontWorry,
There may be more peace coming from my side than you know. It’s my peace that allows me to stand my ground unflinchingly in the face of many challenges and over many years, and believe me, your challenges have been comparatively mild.
Sometimes I don’t answer questions because I don’t like the way they’re put, or the implications they carry. Strip your questions of venom and hooks and we might get farther. You're trying to get too much done with your questions. They are posed and poised to teach me something I refuse to accept. They're too loaded for my taste.
You have approached me as an insider with far more insight and information than I. I don’t buy it. Sometimes being closer to the trees obscures the forest. Why do you think a prophet lacks honor, as the scripture says, in his own country and among his own people? That's a teaching question you many not want to learn from.
I had my inside looks and my looks from a distance. Every point you brought up I’ve been over countless times both here and long before I started posting here. I’ve been at this for ten years now, so there are few surprises you can hand me. On the other hand, you haven’t even begun to see all of my cards, even if you read all three of those colossal threads doojable and I linked you to.
I like talking to people like you because I respect the work for God you did before you got talked out of it, and because I’m ravenously collecting and assimilating the facts and the history of what all happened to us. If that is an attitude of condescension on your part I suspect as you talk to me, a poor deluded kid, then you will be eventually exasperated. If you think you know it all because you were there at an early date then I feel sorry for your inability to learn in the face of new data. I have that new data in large amounts.
Oh yes, I want to be the man VPW knew and wished to be. It's a noble calling and there are many hearing it.
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waysider
If God has called you,
It's not to be VPW
(Or the man he wished he could have been)
Or Uncle Harry
Or The Masked Avenger.
If God has called you,
He has called you to be MIKE,
Nothing more, nothing less.
There is nothing wrong with being MIKE.
VPW could not have been MIKE.
Uncle Harry could not have been MIKE.
The Masked Avenger could not have been MIKE.
Only you can be MIKE.
I believe that is what God wants you to be.
He wants you to be your own unique self.
Something that no one else can be.
He wants you to be MIKE.
It's a quest,
I know,
Discovering who you really are,
Instead of who you think you should be.
Sometimes it's distressing.
Sometimes it's frustrating.
Sometimes it's infuriating.
Sometimes it's depressing.
But in the end,
The rewards for being yourself
Far outweigh the results of
Trying to be who you think you should be.
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pond
is it just me? does anyone hear mikes statements about himself as so much better of and at everything than anyone eles on earth? except those who chose to agree with him?
VPW recommended "how to win friends and influence people" to his followers a highly reccomended book by twi, written by dale carnegie spelling but his classes are still very popular today many years after his death.
ever read them Mike? vpw liked them.
By reading the manner you write clearly your not doing as he suggests.
your sound arrogant and rude and mean .
nothing personal and my opinion , not how the dr. thought it should be for those who listened to his reccomendations.
i think you disobeyed .
the scary part of your idea waysider is it doesnt work for those who really hate who they are, because bottom line they probably have a darn good reason for feeling so much fear and need to deny truth within because it is to much to face. for them for anybody.
scary but true
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Mike
pond,
I try to be friendly, and sometimes succeed. I'll try again.
:)
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waysider
Pond
Yes, that's why the road to self identity can be one of the roughest roads one must travel.
------------------------------------------------
So what have we been able to determine thus far?
Dr. Wierwille taught that cancer has a life of its own and that cancer is devil possession.
The purpose of this thread is to show that VPW DID, in fact. teach this.
Dr. VP Wierwille died from cancer.
Dr. Donald Wierwille died from cancer.
"Uncle Harry" Wierwille died from cancer.
If VPW was wrong about this, it exonerates him from suspicion of possession but cast a very ominous light on his credibility.
If VPW was right about this, it means we were followers of a man who was possessed, which, of course, also casts an ominous light on his credibility.
Anyway you slice it, it is clear that he did teach this.
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Watered Garden
Don'tWorryBeHappy,
Thanks for the clarification.
I hadn't had much contact with FGW while I was in Fellowlaborers. I think he came and spoke on a FLO Night once, but it may have been first year. Waysider may remember.
In the fall of 1977 I had just gotten married and set up housekeeping in Athens, OH so I had no idea what was going on. I was shocked that Uncle Harry had died at all. I didn't even know he was sick.
If I were a Wierwille, I would be interested in some genetic testing to see if there was a familial inclination to cancer. Although come to think of it, at least VPW and DEW smoked, which can be an encouragement to the human body to produce more than one kind of cancer, i.e., lung, throat, sinus, and even sometimes ovarian cancer are more common in smokers than non-smokers. The pollutants in cigarette smoke permeate the human body. Melanoma is caused by overexposure to ultraviolet rays and can metastasize internally all over the body. Many cancers are not definitely linked to anything, and appear to be genetically influenced if not outright hereditary.
I had always understood from the "teachings" of VPW that he taught that cancer was caused by devil spirits. Thanks for the documentation, Waysider.
I worked in a cancer hospital for nine years. I learned a lot. Cancer is not one disease, it's over six hundred. Some are easy to cure; some are 100% terminal, i.e. a very rare form of leukemia that only affects infants and toddlers. It's basically an uncontrolled growth of cells, sometimes due to an irritant such as tobacco smoke or bad, nonfiber diet which can contribute to colon cancer.
If all those patients and some of my coworkers who had had cancer or were currently battling the disease had been possessed with devil spirits, I think God would have told me to transfer out of that place, cast the boogers out (which would have caused no small stir), or do something else about it.
And one more thing I noticed: When a patient died, the cancerous tumors within the patient died too. So how can we say the disease has life of itself? Huh? I mean, 'scuse me if I'm not exhibiting in-depth spiritual awareness and perception, but it was very obvious when a patient died. They were dead. They had no cardiorespiratory or neuromuscular functions. Their obituitary appeared in the local paper and their tearful relatives called in to cancel the next followup. The cancer didn't come in to keep the appointment either, because the cancer died with the rest of the patient. <_<
WG
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Tom Strange
ahh... there's the rub DWBH! reality-based!!! You see Mike lives in reality... but it is an alternate reality to that within which we all live... if you'd really like some volumenous reading venture on down to the dungeon areas and you'll find lots and lots of "Mike's Reality"... it would be quite disconcerting if it were true but fortunately it only lives in Mike's mind...
Mike hate's it when I post this, but maybe it will save you a few hours (I haven't posted this since 2006, and I hope it doesn't get this thread relegated to the dungeon):
Here is the abbreviated version (Mike asked me to not use the term 'synopsis') so you won't have to lose your sight and mind reading all of his posts:
Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.*
Mike has stated that PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Mike has stated that you just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
*as of 5/3/06 Mike has now 'distanced' from that statement, however he would like the reader to know that he considers PFAL to be revelation from God and equal to the revelation from God in the Bible.
These are his statements of belief that are supplied for the reader because if you ask Mike directly what his statements of belief are he will never give you a direct answer. Mike has made all of these statements on the boards here at the GSC. Mike was directly asked about every single statement, in context, at the time the statements were made. Mike has elected to never answer/address them directly with anything more than "because I said so" or "the only way you will ever know the answers is to "master" PFAL using only techniques ascribed to by Mike... and Mike will most likely treat you like a piece of dirt while doing so.
Please feel free, gentle reader, to ask Mike directly about any of these. Maybe you will get a direct answer (if you do, it will be the first time).
Did I mention that Mike actually believes he has a physical Christ growing inside of him?
We now return you to our regularly scheduled program...
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nandon
it kinda makes sense, drugs can keep God from working in people, so why couldn't a drug keep a devil spirit from working in people?
if the spirit is trying to cause pain, and the person is on a pain killer then the spirit would be hindered.
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nandon
""Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.*
Mike has stated that PFAL is the Word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Mike has stated that you just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death. ""
Mike. Do you really believe these things? I mean its ok if you used to and don't now, and its ok if you still do. Im just curious. I like to get as much first hand info as possible.
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Tom Strange
nandon... it's all down there in the dungeon... er... doctrinal area... look up a few of the long threads with plaf in the title and you'll find all of those things stated by Mike... of course, you may have to sift through a couple of thousand posts... (that's why we provide the 'recap' as a public service...
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Mike
Tom,
It's not ALL down there in the dungeon. I'd say probably half is missing, pruned. Was your public service just sloppy in not knowing this, or dishonest in hiding it? The public has a right to know.
Still, there IS a lot of context there in Doctrinal. Down there are the three threads doojable and I have linked to recently. Compared to the zero context or even reference links your "public service" neglected, there's TONS of context there. You didn’t even have the decency to supply those three links and lessen the public’s efforts to search there.
I think you’re only serving those of less depth than nandon’s, people willing to have others interpret and then supply them with the crucial information of their lives, people who don’t think that context is important and that paraphrasing is sufficient.
***
Hi nandon,
I appreciate your curiosity and your desire to hear something first-hand.
There is much immediate distortion in that list you asked about,
and even more distortion due to missing context.
It's a Poor Paraphrase.
In fact, there's SO much distortion, that it would help if we abbreviated the process by focusing on just one or two items, rather than the whole list.
Which of the items sparked your curiosity the most?
...and may I ask why?
...and might it be a conversation instead of an interrogation or worse yet, a mocky session? These two later kinds of discourses have been continually thrust upon me and the Doctrinal Dungeon DOES have a lot of that record.
nandon, is it ONLY out of curiosity that you ask? In that case PMs might suffice. Or do you want to make it a public thread thing? ...and if so, might I ask why?
I just want to see where your head is at a little before I invest much time into it. I KNOW where Tom’s head is at so I just let him wail.
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waysider
Hi, Mike
I think what Tom was giving was only intended to be a synopsis.
Do you think there is anything in PFAL that might address the sex scandals?
BTW----The purpose of this thread was to determine whether Mr. Wierwille ever taught that cancer has a life of its own and whether he ever taught that it is caused by devil possession.
I think we pretty well established that he did.
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rascal
I saw nothing distorted about Tom`s list Mike, you are lying if your assertion is that you haven`t said those things, and more.
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WordWolf
There's something original about Mike misremembering and rewriting history in his mind? :blink:
I've DOCUMENTED it before!
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rascal
Good point Wolf.
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nandon
mike,
you have your beliefs, and thats good with me, but some of those things sounds crazy. I'm just curious if you really believe them. as far as picking out a couple, how about these.
Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
""Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
no interrogation from me.
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Mike
Hi nandon,
Ok, then let's have a conversation.
As to the first item, might I ask you (as part of my answer) a question? Sometimes asking a question with a question leads to a better answer than if it’s just answered outright. An interrogator would not want me to take the lead in my answering that way and would refuse such a request on my part to ask.
Here’s the question: Do you believe Jesus Christ is omniscient and therefore needs no learning? We got good at accepting the grammar of the sentence “Jesus Christ is not God” but we still retained many mental images of him AS IF HE WERE God. If Jesus Christ TRULY is omniscient, or truly needs no learning, THEN what I said could look crazy.
On the other hand, if he’s TRULY a man and not all-knowing, then it would be A LOT less crazy to think of him learning. Right?
***
Now as to your second question, let me ask again something of you.
Do you know where to find God’s Word in it’s exact form? I mean can you tell me where I can buy a copy of the AUTHORITATIVE Word of God? If you tell me something and I buy it, and then find that some passages are mis-translated then that wouldn’t count. I mean to ask can you find in the world today ANYTHING of the same status as the original manuscripts? I mean can you find anything in English that conveys EXACTLY what the original understanding was for Aramaic speaking believers 2000 years ago who were lucky enough to get their hands on an original?
So far, after two years or so of me asking posters here and elsewhere, no one here has been able to come up with an actual God-breathed document, especially one in English.
I ask them if they have a text that's BIGGER then them and all their theologian friends, a text that need never be altered and CAN never be altered, just believed and acted on.
Just the other day anotherdan admitted that he could find no such document. This means God’s written Word is gone, and all we have are approximations. God's written Word was lost several times in the OT. Did you know that? It was, or most of it was recovered, but for a time it WAS lost.
If there is no God-breathed text in existence at this point in time, then there would be a GREAT NEED for God to re-issue His Word, right?
Plus, there’s precedent for this. There were times when God’s Word was buried in various ways, and He re-issued it in various ways. He did that with His Word written in the stars when it reached a certain state of corruption after the Tower of Babel. This was not just a “reprint” type of re-issue, but it involved a MAJOR format change too.
Another re-issue of His Word can be seen in Jeremiah 36 where He did a “reprint” but then added many words as well, constituting another format change.
With this in mind, that God-reissuing His Word when He thinks it’s needed and would be believed, does it sound a little less crazy to hear that He did it again?
Do you see how this subject is a little deeper than Tom Strange was able to convey with his crazy sounding synopsis?
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Mike
I Corinthians 13
The love of God thinketh no evil.
This is very difficult for some people, even long after the facts. It seems like there's often a juicy sensational pleasure people can sometimes get out of gossip and scandal.
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doojable
The problem with this logic is that the PFAL book and collaterals still POINT to the KJV. At best they are a commentary and not a "reformatting."
Jesus Christ has been seated at the right hand of God for how long now? I'd say that as the head of the Body he's up to speed on God's Word and will.
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Mike
I need something more than your say on that. We don't have ANY sense knowledge understanding as to what it means to be seated at the right hand of God. With God there IS NO TIME, so you can't even state that he's been there for such-and-such a length of time. He's been GONE from here for such-and-such a length of time, but we have no idea of any timespan THERE.
What you're saying is that being next to God he is just like God. But aren't WE seated in the same location seeing we are members of his body and seated in the heaven lies?
I know I still need to learn, AND it's still fun. Do you want to deny Jesus this fun? Even the angels, and they're up there too, desired to look into (learn) things that weren't written yet. Remember?
No. You missed another possibility.
In the NORM they would be a commentary or man-breathed Bible (version) aid.
AT BEST they are a God-breathed commentary and Bible aid, and therefore bigger than us AND unalterable AND the last word on the subject. Do you want to deny God the right to quote the KJV and comment on it?
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socks
Dunno about cancer but this thread is taking on a life of it's own.
Maybe an aspirin will get it back on track.
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Mike
Hi socks,
Long time no talk. It’s good to see you here.
Funny you should bring this up. So far, I’ve not seen an opening for this approach in a long time, plus I feel less competent to present this aspect of what I am studying. But since you brought it up, here goes.
I think there is much more contained in your jest than you know.
Remember how Jesus often tried to talk spiritually with his apostles, but they were not spiritual enough to get it? One example was when they were hungry and thought Jesus wanted food with equal passion? He had to remind them that his meat was to do the will of the Father.
Then a little later, with the woman by the well, he starts talking about water using the accepted Oriental custom for approaching women in public. But then he switches to spiritual water.
Still another example is where Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, until the apostles just COULDN’T get it and he had to translate that he was REALLY talking about the sleep of death.
Have you ever toyed SERIOUSLY with the idea that Dr was talking about the WORDS that are LIKE a cancer having a life of their own and of devil spirit origins?
There's something similar to this in the KJV.
2 Timothy 2:15-18
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Yes, I know canker is not the same as cancer, but it looks pretty darn close in some ways.
***
Page 14 of GMWD directs us to think of the possibility that beneath the sense knowledge message of Psalm 103 there are hidden truths, a hidden spiritual message. This came out in 1977 in book form. In Dr’s previous teachings he had warned against hidden meanings, but then it changed later on. My thinking is that prior to '77 we were DEFINITELY not ready to look for hidden spiritual meanings, but after that we had "graduated" to the level of the apostles in that we MIGHT get it. Sure, it's the case that we did NOT get it back then, but neither did the apostles in their first go-arounds with Jesus talking spiritual.
I know few people have spent much time thinking on this tack, so I think it deserves some time before it’s rejected outright. I wonder how much time it will take for some posters to reject it? I’m going on ten years now of looking into this tack.
I was first alerted to this approach when someone here showed me a surprising way of looking at Romans 1 where it’s not merely homosexual actions that are being condemned, but something much worse. I’m convinced this is what Dr was pointing at in his tirades against homosexuality, while we missed it, only receiving the sense knowledge understanding. Sure Dr probably helped some to later avoid AIDS and other problems with the sense knowledge teaching of Romans 1, but I now know he ALSO had a deeper meaning to point to there, and one that was to be pertinent to later times.
Then there was also a lot of talk in the TVTs about "spiritual adultery" that I never got to understand or fully examine, never seeing it in print, and rarely ever (IF ever) hearing it from Dr on tape. Five senses adultery, we all know, is pretty hurtful, but SPIRITUAL adultery is much worse and even more to be avoided.
What might we learn now if all those verbal teachings of Dr on cancer and devils were aimed at spiritual cancer, like the disease talked out in II Timothy?
Who will be first to reject this?
Who thinks there’s more to discuss?
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Larry N Moore
Good point Mike. It reminds of what 2 Timothy 2:17 says.
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