They lodge in your physical body- as diseases that have life of themselves.
I heard it taught it was a devil. I do believe I heard VP teach that.
The guilt and condemnation that placed on sick people was horrible. Just when they need to know God Loves them and will see them through. When they need to know he will never leave them or forsake them, when they need to know we stand with them in prayer and support, they throw this burden at a person. It is SO MEAN and just plain wrong to heap this on a person who needs love and support.
We need to pray for God's healing power to energize and heal.... But TWI comes along a pours water on a drowning man....
Well, if TWI teaches it to be a devil and gives out condemnation, I choose to believe the opposite. It can be God's finest hour in that he can heal his kids and give them their 85th birthday, their 60th wedding anniversary. That the Christ has risen, taking our illness to the cross and we can have his healthy cells replace our sick ones as that is the reason he rose again. To take these things to the cross and defeat them because we could not do it without him.
And even if it were the devil - greater is HE that is in you than he that is in the world. Instead of HEAP dishonor and gloom on people WHY NOT teach that even cancer is under our feet, because our feet belong to Jesus?
God is still on the throne, he loves us, by his stripes we were healed.
That stuff makes me mad and it defeats us. It takes away the love and the purpose of Christ as they used the condemnation to clobber people with... How dare they? They presented it as a condemnation tool as I recall... Building FEAR of the devil rather than POWER of a God who loves us.
In the corps, my 9th corps friend had this teaching used against her when she had a growth on her back. Rather than the corps twig having prayer and supporting her, she was made to feel like a worthless dirty sin filled looser who God had turned his back on!
The notion that cancer is devil spirits is absurd. If it were devil spirits then drugs, chemo, radation would have no more effect on it than a warm soapy enema. The only possible "cure" would casting out the demons. (Maybe an enema with warm holy water might work?)
VPW's absurd notion stems from poor logical deduction. ie:
All life is spirt.
Cancer has life.
Cancer is therefore spirit
Sickness is from the devil
Cancer is sickness
Cancer is from the devil
Conculsion:
If cancer then is spirit and from the devil it
must therefore be "devil / spirit" (ie Possession )
Can anyone besides me see the logical fallacies involved ?
This is how many TWI doctrines and "spiritual laws" came into being ... from VPW's flawed application of basic logic upon scripture taken out of its context. It looks good at first glance but when put the test, it fails miserably.
The notion that cancer is devil spirits is absurd. If it were devil spirits then drugs, chemo, radation would have no more effect on it than a warm soapy enema. The only possible "cure" would casting out the demons. (Maybe an enema with warm holy water might work?)
VPW's absurd notion stems from poor logical deduction. ie:
All life is spirt.
Cancer has life.
Cancer is therefore spirit
Sickness is from the devil
Cancer is sickness
Cancer is from the devil
Conculsion:
If cancer then is spirit and from the devil it
must therefore be devil - spirit ie Possession
Can anyone besides me see the logical fallacy?
You Betcha!
I posted this in response to someone's insistence, not long ago, that these things were not taught by VPW.
Hi Waysider!...............thanks for starting this interesting thread!............
Looks like oldiesman's rose colored vic apologist bilinders have once again been "loosed" by the actual facts presented here by waysider!..........make no mistake about it.............vic most definitely taught that all cancer was "devil spirit possession"!!..........if you had cancer, you were possessed!..........
when i first took the ac in rye, ny, april,1972........vic was absilutely adamant about this!.........i took the ac again in the summer of '72, and every summer thereafter ('72, '73, '74, '75' and '76) as well as the ac "specials" on discerning of spirits, word of knowledge and word of wisdom (summers of '74, '75 and '76, respectively).........at every one, vic remained absolutely adamant about this teaching!......."EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE OF ITSELF IS SPIRIT. ALL SPIRIT IS LIFE!"..........please note, that, oldiesman missquoted vic........he reversed it.......it's not all life is spirit......it's "all sprit is life"..........therefore, since everything that "has life of itself" is spirit.......and "all spirit is life".....all cancer ( which according to vic, has "life of itself") is spirit......that is, devil spirits..........so, vic definitely taught, that, if you had cancer you were "possessed"!..........no question about that!
on the closing night of the ac special on discerning of spirits, july,1974........vic conducted a healing service..........during that service, at the front of the brc, vic personally "ministered" to a beloved, longstanding grad and fellow motorcycle enthusiast from flint, mi,...."happy jack" chandlee.........brc was packed and there were 2 meal tents set up in the brc parking lot for the overflow crowd.........vic himself "ministered" to "happy jack" with his microphone totally on and turned up!
he "cast out cancer spirits" from jack, which everyone could hear ............despite this, happy jack died of cancer 1 or 2 years later............despite such public "failures", there remained no "budging" on this doctrine............all of us who knew happy jack were terribly disappointed.......as was jack himself,.....who told me personally, that he felt "terrible" that he could not "believe big enough to keep those damn spirits out"!..............this kind of incident totally validates what dot said in her post here..............
it was'nt until after vic's older brother, harry, died a cruel death from cancer in october,1977, that there was any progress away from vic's adamant stance regarding all cancer being caused by devil spirit possession.........even then, the doctrine "progressed" only as far as allowing for the possibility that not EVERY cancer was necessarily a "devil spirit"!............but, the general rule remained the same, even after vic's own death in 1985, from occular melanoma with liver metastasis..........vic's son, don, also died of lung cancer.........don't know how twi handled that..............but vic's death was euphamized so many different ways (especially by geer in pop!), that the actual cause of his death was hardly known, even amongst the corps!
all the advances in cancer treatments , therapies and research, obviously point to the intellectual and medical ignorance the acceptance of this adamant doctrine requires...........for example,......the vaccine now available to women which prevents cervical cancer, now known to be caused by the human pappiloma virus which is spread primarily via sexual contact............and many other surgical and chemotherapeutic treatments for various cancers today........
can god heal people from cancer??...........absolutely!............but so can the medical profession...........and, obviously.......not all cancer is "devil spirit possession"!
dot's sentiment regarding twi's cruel, unnecessary condemnation that "pours water on a drowning man",.......is, imo, right on!.............it does not deny god's ability or willingnes to heal cancer patients...........it exposes the ignorance and cruelty of vic's teachings regarding cancer, which, in effect, did more to hinder god's deliverance for cancer patients than to encourage it!.................................................peace.
I rmemeber one time in early 1985 when some Way Corp apprentice was talking about how computers very well might have devil spirits because, since the monitor glowed when it was on, that meant that the computer had life within itself. Ie., it then had devil spirits in it!
First off, technically speaking, the monitor was the thing that was glowing, not the computer. Which leads to ... two, then that would mean that, if they were right, the monitor would be one with devil spirits in it. And since TVs operate the same way, ..... well, what about all those monitors that were dispersed throughout the Big Tent at the Rock?
They wouldn't know what a life was if it came up and bit them on the arse.
There is also a book (s) which covers toxins in the system and a variety of cancer causing things -- I am sure if IT were a devil, doing a cleanse would not have helped the people who were helped
Here is a woman who was treating people in Canada and they were getting well...
Now see, I distinctly remember a teaching where we were told NOT to throw out our meds until the meds themselves made us sick.
How the teachings morphed...
And what I just can't understand is, Why!
It's not like TWI had some great healing ministry going on.
How many times did we get "ministered to" for a cold, get better 4 or 5 days later (ie, the normal length of time to heal from a cold,) and then say that God healed us?
That teaching came out right after she died and I believe BECAUSE she died. She died then there was the ROA at the horse track about a month later and it was taught there.
Thanks for the added info. I’ve been working on this one for decades.
I don’t like posting on this subject, but I have. Someday I may collect it all together (including the pruned material) for some kind of presentation or posting, but I prefer to put this subject on a low priority status for now.
So, I’m going to try to not get involved much more than this minimal posting. I want to throw out a few tid-bits after these preliminary remarks.
***
Whenever a story is known incompletely of with slight inaccuracy, the human mind(s) can severely veer off in extrapolation exercises to fill in the gaps and contradictions. Often the final "complete" story that gets told is diametrically opposed to the factual situation.
I think this is the case in the thoughts that prevail in this cancer thread and others, that crucial details are not in the mix. These crucial little details, when properly introduced, can significantly shore up the breaches in accuracy that we humans are prone to when we rely on even slightly incomplete and inaccurate memory and then extrapolate.
Add to that distortion the number of decades that are involved in the pulling up of memories of “exactly” what was taught. Then add in the emotional element.
My hat’s off to you, waysider, for documenting written sources and even including dates. I wish more posters would take that kind of time to actually look some things up.
***
Ok, now here’s the first tid-bit. I think if it’s integrated into many of the posts already made here on this one thread, then it at least will show that a some of the story is missing here.
Dr taught in the AC that it’s possible for a tablet of aspirin to drive out a devil spirit.
How many people remember it? Why hasn’t anyone mentioned this? The word "aspirin" was even mentioned in another context, but did anyone key off it what Dr had taught? No, because it doesn’t fit into the general trend of thought here, and it can even contradict it.
***
This second thing I always try to remind people when this subject of cancer comes up, and it has about ten times here. Like the aspirin thing, this second item grates up against some of the prevailing notions here.
Here it is: almost no one ever includes in the mix what we were taught about spirit oppression.
It always has to be “possession” that enters the conversation, no one remembers “oppression.” Jesus was oppressed by THE devil spirit and it was not shameful. Jesus got revelation from the devil at least once, and it wasn’t shameful. He just shrugged it off because if didn’t match the written Word.
What’s the difference between possession and oppression? I know the difference, but how many others do?
Can anyone find that in their syllabus instead of putting forth what’s in (or not in) their memory?
***
So there they are, my two contributions: aspirin and oppression.
***
addendum: Garth, Hold onto your hat. You make a good point. Just exactly what Dr meant by “life” eluded many in this context of “life in itself.” ...and I’m also still working on what “itself” means or can mean. Heck, do we even have an accurate idea of what a devil spirit is? Or do we even need to, since we have the Word?
That teaching came out right after she died and I believe BECAUSE she died. She died then there was the ROA at the horse track about a month later and it was taught there.
I distinctly remember that teaching.
I think it was about 1973 or 1974.
In retrospect, I think that teaching was just a way to cover their butts.
In that same teaching, Dr. W. related an incident involving how his children were not allowed to start school until they had their proper shots.
According to Dr. W., he fought the policy very strongly and said his kids were covered by believing.
He said he was concerned the shots could make them sick.
Then, according to him, he suddenly realized he could have the kids get their shots and thus believe that the shots would not harm them.
Looking back, it's just old fashioned rationalization.
He said if you are on meds, you should continue until it's the meds that make you sick because you no longer need them.
Don't break your back in all the bendings and contortions it's seems you're planning to do to discredit this fact. His point (i.e. his statement of his "truth" that cancer = spirit possession) came across loud and clear. No denying that. I understand why this would be a back burner topic for you for now. Leave the difficult ones for later.
Suda (who thinks you make valid points from time to time, but this one falls into the "too far out there" category)
My post is not based on "memory" or "extrapolation".
What Wierwille taught is right there in black and white for you to see.
There's more, too, but somehow I think it would be fruitless to direct your attention to it.
Wierwille wouldn't have known "God's Voice" if it was screaming in his ear.
He was nothing more than a pompous arse with serious psychological and behavioral problems, not to mention a criminal that just so happened to stay one step ahead of the law.
It always has to be “possession” that enters the conversation, no one remembers “oppression.” Jesus was oppressed by THE devil spirit and it was not shameful. Jesus got revelation from the devil at least once, and it wasn’t shameful. He just shrugged it off because if didn’t match the written Word.
What’s the difference between possession and oppression? I know the difference, but how many others do?
I was taught at an AC class that depression and oppression are devil spirits that hang out and are both signs of possession.
Depression works from the inside out and oppression works from the outside in. An oppression example was that of a flea (or bug) that was held captive in a jar and kepts jumping -- once it learned that it would get no where it stopped jumping so high. Sounds sort of like Pavlou's law. Alot of things I've learned in "biblical study" are out there elsewhere....
Oppression was also said to hang around ghetto areas where you could feel the gloom when you entered. Beer is cheap and drugs are cheaper -- keeping them depressed. Those two spirits hang out alot.
Dr taught in the AC that it’s possible for a tablet of aspirin to drive out a devil spirit.
How many people remember it? Why hasn’t anyone mentioned this? The word "aspirin" was even mentioned in another context, but did anyone key off it what Dr had taught? No, because it doesn’t fit into the general trend of thought here, and it can even contradict it.
I NEVER heard that. Not only that - I never even heard it repeated.
Geez Mike, if an aspirin could drive out a devil spirit, why do we need the name of Jesus Christ?
For that matter if that's the case, why do we need a saviour at all?
Never mind the nine manifestations, God, Jesus, ... just take an aspirin. <_<
I think that now YOU are taking something completely out of context.
Dr taught in the AC that it's possible for a tablet of aspirin to drive out a devil spirit.
How many people remember it? Why hasn't anyone mentioned this? The word "aspirin" was even mentioned in another context, but did anyone key off it what Dr had taught? No, because it doesn't fit into the general trend of thought here, and it can even contradict it.
If I had remebered it I would have brought it up, because its downright stupid. If an aspirin can drive out a devil spirit then so can a soapy enema or a good shot of tobasco sauce. Maybe garlic wreaths do repel vampires.
I am glad you mentioned it Mike. It shows how VPW grapsed at straws to make his theological system fit like a hand in a glove.
Logic:
Believer 1: I have a headache
Beleiver 2: Doctor says that disease is oppression from Satan and a headache is disease (dis- ease)
Do you want me to pray for your deliverance & healing?
Believer 1: No, I'll just take an aspirin.
30 minutes later .....
Believer 1: My headache is gone.
Believer 2: Wow, Aspirin really can drive out devil spirits just like Doctor taught !
I must concur with Outfield.(regarding oppression, depression and possession.)
Page 21
i. Spirits affecting the mind
(2) Spirit of Oppression---Generates feelings of persecution from external sources. ("everything is closing in".)
(3)Spirit of Depression----Has internal implications.
So, to answer your question, MIKE, the difference between possession and oppression is that possession is a state of being, whereas oppression(in the context of the information taught in the Advanced Class) is a spiritual entity.
Re: the statement about aspirin.
A scriptural reference would be nice but I will accept a syllabus reference of proof that he taught it.
We know he could not have gotten this by direct revelation because there are countless teachings that state that revelation can not contradict the Word.
The Word says spirits are cast out in the name of Jesus Christ therefore, saying they are cast out by ingestion of aspirin is a contradiction of God's Word.
Hence, It does not appear that Wierwille could have reached this conclusion by either direct revelation or scriptural reference.
If, in fact, you do know where the scriptures would substantiate this or can refer to a specific section from the AC syllabus, by all means, feel free to do so.
Dr taught that it was POSSIBLE, IN SOME CASES, not that it was causative for most or all cases.
I'm glad at least one person remembers this. Thanks Outfield!
Dr said that in SOME situations the aspirin makes it difficult for the spirit to operate in that section of the brain where the aspirin is (using figurative language here) slowing things down (or whatever it does technically). With the added difficulty the spirit leaves for better pastures.
***
More detail on oppression:
I've always thought (and I may need more learning here) that there are two operations, possession and oppression. All spirits oppress until they or others can get in and posses.
There may be one spirit that specializes in the operation of oppression. If I learn more I'll report on it.
He said that in SOME situations the aspirin makes it difficult for the spirit to operate in that section of the brain where the aspirin is (using figurative language here) slowing things down (or whatever it does technically). With the added difficulty the spirit leaves for better pastures.
I think that "aspirin" was a code word for "Drambuie."
One person remembered it, to all the rest it's a brand new idea.
Maybe it would be a good idea to think about it for a while before rejecting it so quickly.
At any rate, it ONCE AGAIN shows that many things slipped by us unawares or were forgotten. To properly extract the most benefit from what we were taught it would help TO KNOW what we were taught.
The one person who remembered it was never in TWI. That poster was in an offshoot.
Maybe it isn't so much that it slipped away unawares as much as you immortalizing every word that came from the mouth of a leacherous, pretend minister that wouldn't know a genuine healing....
oh wait - he didn't know genuine healing - or else he would have taken an aspirin.
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Dot Matrix
I heard it taught it was a devil. I do believe I heard VP teach that.
The guilt and condemnation that placed on sick people was horrible. Just when they need to know God Loves them and will see them through. When they need to know he will never leave them or forsake them, when they need to know we stand with them in prayer and support, they throw this burden at a person. It is SO MEAN and just plain wrong to heap this on a person who needs love and support.
We need to pray for God's healing power to energize and heal.... But TWI comes along a pours water on a drowning man....
Well, if TWI teaches it to be a devil and gives out condemnation, I choose to believe the opposite. It can be God's finest hour in that he can heal his kids and give them their 85th birthday, their 60th wedding anniversary. That the Christ has risen, taking our illness to the cross and we can have his healthy cells replace our sick ones as that is the reason he rose again. To take these things to the cross and defeat them because we could not do it without him.
And even if it were the devil - greater is HE that is in you than he that is in the world. Instead of HEAP dishonor and gloom on people WHY NOT teach that even cancer is under our feet, because our feet belong to Jesus?
God is still on the throne, he loves us, by his stripes we were healed.
That stuff makes me mad and it defeats us. It takes away the love and the purpose of Christ as they used the condemnation to clobber people with... How dare they? They presented it as a condemnation tool as I recall... Building FEAR of the devil rather than POWER of a God who loves us.
In the corps, my 9th corps friend had this teaching used against her when she had a growth on her back. Rather than the corps twig having prayer and supporting her, she was made to feel like a worthless dirty sin filled looser who God had turned his back on!
THAT IS A LIE!!!!
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Ham
Comparing that to "sickness is death in part, or in whole"
suggests to me the mogster was saying that "they" would be getting us in the eventually..
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Goey
The notion that cancer is devil spirits is absurd. If it were devil spirits then drugs, chemo, radation would have no more effect on it than a warm soapy enema. The only possible "cure" would casting out the demons. (Maybe an enema with warm holy water might work?)
VPW's absurd notion stems from poor logical deduction. ie:
All life is spirt.
Cancer has life.
Cancer is therefore spirit
Sickness is from the devil
Cancer is sickness
Cancer is from the devil
Conculsion:
If cancer then is spirit and from the devil it
must therefore be "devil / spirit" (ie Possession )
Can anyone besides me see the logical fallacies involved ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This is how many TWI doctrines and "spiritual laws" came into being ... from VPW's flawed application of basic logic upon scripture taken out of its context. It looks good at first glance but when put the test, it fails miserably.
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waysider
You Betcha!
I posted this in response to someone's insistence, not long ago, that these things were not taught by VPW.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Waysider!...............thanks for starting this interesting thread!............
Looks like oldiesman's rose colored vic apologist bilinders have once again been "loosed" by the actual facts presented here by waysider!..........make no mistake about it.............vic most definitely taught that all cancer was "devil spirit possession"!!..........if you had cancer, you were possessed!..........
when i first took the ac in rye, ny, april,1972........vic was absilutely adamant about this!.........i took the ac again in the summer of '72, and every summer thereafter ('72, '73, '74, '75' and '76) as well as the ac "specials" on discerning of spirits, word of knowledge and word of wisdom (summers of '74, '75 and '76, respectively).........at every one, vic remained absolutely adamant about this teaching!......."EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE OF ITSELF IS SPIRIT. ALL SPIRIT IS LIFE!"..........please note, that, oldiesman missquoted vic........he reversed it.......it's not all life is spirit......it's "all sprit is life"..........therefore, since everything that "has life of itself" is spirit.......and "all spirit is life".....all cancer ( which according to vic, has "life of itself") is spirit......that is, devil spirits..........so, vic definitely taught, that, if you had cancer you were "possessed"!..........no question about that!
on the closing night of the ac special on discerning of spirits, july,1974........vic conducted a healing service..........during that service, at the front of the brc, vic personally "ministered" to a beloved, longstanding grad and fellow motorcycle enthusiast from flint, mi,...."happy jack" chandlee.........brc was packed and there were 2 meal tents set up in the brc parking lot for the overflow crowd.........vic himself "ministered" to "happy jack" with his microphone totally on and turned up!
he "cast out cancer spirits" from jack, which everyone could hear ............despite this, happy jack died of cancer 1 or 2 years later............despite such public "failures", there remained no "budging" on this doctrine............all of us who knew happy jack were terribly disappointed.......as was jack himself,.....who told me personally, that he felt "terrible" that he could not "believe big enough to keep those damn spirits out"!..............this kind of incident totally validates what dot said in her post here..............
it was'nt until after vic's older brother, harry, died a cruel death from cancer in october,1977, that there was any progress away from vic's adamant stance regarding all cancer being caused by devil spirit possession.........even then, the doctrine "progressed" only as far as allowing for the possibility that not EVERY cancer was necessarily a "devil spirit"!............but, the general rule remained the same, even after vic's own death in 1985, from occular melanoma with liver metastasis..........vic's son, don, also died of lung cancer.........don't know how twi handled that..............but vic's death was euphamized so many different ways (especially by geer in pop!), that the actual cause of his death was hardly known, even amongst the corps!
all the advances in cancer treatments , therapies and research, obviously point to the intellectual and medical ignorance the acceptance of this adamant doctrine requires...........for example,......the vaccine now available to women which prevents cervical cancer, now known to be caused by the human pappiloma virus which is spread primarily via sexual contact............and many other surgical and chemotherapeutic treatments for various cancers today........
can god heal people from cancer??...........absolutely!............but so can the medical profession...........and, obviously.......not all cancer is "devil spirit possession"!
dot's sentiment regarding twi's cruel, unnecessary condemnation that "pours water on a drowning man",.......is, imo, right on!.............it does not deny god's ability or willingnes to heal cancer patients...........it exposes the ignorance and cruelty of vic's teachings regarding cancer, which, in effect, did more to hinder god's deliverance for cancer patients than to encourage it!.................................................peace.
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GarthP2000
((laughing my arse off))
I rmemeber one time in early 1985 when some Way Corp apprentice was talking about how computers very well might have devil spirits because, since the monitor glowed when it was on, that meant that the computer had life within itself. Ie., it then had devil spirits in it!
First off, technically speaking, the monitor was the thing that was glowing, not the computer. Which leads to ... two, then that would mean that, if they were right, the monitor would be one with devil spirits in it. And since TVs operate the same way, ..... well, what about all those monitors that were dispersed throughout the Big Tent at the Rock?
They wouldn't know what a life was if it came up and bit them on the arse.
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Dot Matrix
Geez, Garth that is as sad as it is funny
How many times did one of them take an asprin for a headache while condemning others for cancer?
DWBH brings up some good medical points as well. God can lead you to the right medical person with the right knowledge to help you.
BUT TWI never saw this as a gift -- we had to get medical help because we did not "believe God big enough."
Shoot, every good and perfect gift cometh down from the father of Light. 1John 1:17
Even a GREAT Doctor!!! What a gift!!!
But TWI made you feel it was treason to get medical help.
We had a woman with blood pressure problems she was prayed for and told if she really believed she would throw out her medications.
She did.
She died.
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Dot Matrix
DWBH
There is also a book (s) which covers toxins in the system and a variety of cancer causing things -- I am sure if IT were a devil, doing a cleanse would not have helped the people who were helped
Here is a woman who was treating people in Canada and they were getting well...
http://www.healthfreedom.info/I%20Was%20Ca...cer%20Nurse.htm
If tea could get rid of a demon then let's give it out...
(I am not arguing about HER but the craziness of TWI)
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doojable
Now see, I distinctly remember a teaching where we were told NOT to throw out our meds until the meds themselves made us sick.
How the teachings morphed...
And what I just can't understand is, Why!
It's not like TWI had some great healing ministry going on.
How many times did we get "ministered to" for a cold, get better 4 or 5 days later (ie, the normal length of time to heal from a cold,) and then say that God healed us?
That delusion in and of itself was wrong.
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Dot Matrix
That teaching came out right after she died and I believe BECAUSE she died. She died then there was the ROA at the horse track about a month later and it was taught there.
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Mike
waysider and Don’tWorry,
Thanks for the added info. I’ve been working on this one for decades.
I don’t like posting on this subject, but I have. Someday I may collect it all together (including the pruned material) for some kind of presentation or posting, but I prefer to put this subject on a low priority status for now.
So, I’m going to try to not get involved much more than this minimal posting. I want to throw out a few tid-bits after these preliminary remarks.
***
Whenever a story is known incompletely of with slight inaccuracy, the human mind(s) can severely veer off in extrapolation exercises to fill in the gaps and contradictions. Often the final "complete" story that gets told is diametrically opposed to the factual situation.
I think this is the case in the thoughts that prevail in this cancer thread and others, that crucial details are not in the mix. These crucial little details, when properly introduced, can significantly shore up the breaches in accuracy that we humans are prone to when we rely on even slightly incomplete and inaccurate memory and then extrapolate.
Add to that distortion the number of decades that are involved in the pulling up of memories of “exactly” what was taught. Then add in the emotional element.
My hat’s off to you, waysider, for documenting written sources and even including dates. I wish more posters would take that kind of time to actually look some things up.
***
Ok, now here’s the first tid-bit. I think if it’s integrated into many of the posts already made here on this one thread, then it at least will show that a some of the story is missing here.
Dr taught in the AC that it’s possible for a tablet of aspirin to drive out a devil spirit.
How many people remember it? Why hasn’t anyone mentioned this? The word "aspirin" was even mentioned in another context, but did anyone key off it what Dr had taught? No, because it doesn’t fit into the general trend of thought here, and it can even contradict it.
***
This second thing I always try to remind people when this subject of cancer comes up, and it has about ten times here. Like the aspirin thing, this second item grates up against some of the prevailing notions here.
Here it is: almost no one ever includes in the mix what we were taught about spirit oppression.
It always has to be “possession” that enters the conversation, no one remembers “oppression.” Jesus was oppressed by THE devil spirit and it was not shameful. Jesus got revelation from the devil at least once, and it wasn’t shameful. He just shrugged it off because if didn’t match the written Word.
What’s the difference between possession and oppression? I know the difference, but how many others do?
Can anyone find that in their syllabus instead of putting forth what’s in (or not in) their memory?
***
So there they are, my two contributions: aspirin and oppression.
***
addendum: Garth, Hold onto your hat. You make a good point. Just exactly what Dr meant by “life” eluded many in this context of “life in itself.” ...and I’m also still working on what “itself” means or can mean. Heck, do we even have an accurate idea of what a devil spirit is? Or do we even need to, since we have the Word?
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waysider
I distinctly remember that teaching.
I think it was about 1973 or 1974.
In retrospect, I think that teaching was just a way to cover their butts.
In that same teaching, Dr. W. related an incident involving how his children were not allowed to start school until they had their proper shots.
According to Dr. W., he fought the policy very strongly and said his kids were covered by believing.
He said he was concerned the shots could make them sick.
Then, according to him, he suddenly realized he could have the kids get their shots and thus believe that the shots would not harm them.
Looking back, it's just old fashioned rationalization.
He said if you are on meds, you should continue until it's the meds that make you sick because you no longer need them.
I can't believe I actually fell for this cr@p.
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Suda
Mike,
Don't break your back in all the bendings and contortions it's seems you're planning to do to discredit this fact. His point (i.e. his statement of his "truth" that cancer = spirit possession) came across loud and clear. No denying that. I understand why this would be a back burner topic for you for now. Leave the difficult ones for later.
Suda (who thinks you make valid points from time to time, but this one falls into the "too far out there" category)
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waysider
MIKE
My post is not based on "memory" or "extrapolation".
What Wierwille taught is right there in black and white for you to see.
There's more, too, but somehow I think it would be fruitless to direct your attention to it.
Wierwille wouldn't have known "God's Voice" if it was screaming in his ear.
He was nothing more than a pompous arse with serious psychological and behavioral problems, not to mention a criminal that just so happened to stay one step ahead of the law.
Peace
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Outfield
I was taught at an AC class that depression and oppression are devil spirits that hang out and are both signs of possession.
Depression works from the inside out and oppression works from the outside in. An oppression example was that of a flea (or bug) that was held captive in a jar and kepts jumping -- once it learned that it would get no where it stopped jumping so high. Sounds sort of like Pavlou's law. Alot of things I've learned in "biblical study" are out there elsewhere....
Oppression was also said to hang around ghetto areas where you could feel the gloom when you entered. Beer is cheap and drugs are cheaper -- keeping them depressed. Those two spirits hang out alot.
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doojable
I NEVER heard that. Not only that - I never even heard it repeated.
Geez Mike, if an aspirin could drive out a devil spirit, why do we need the name of Jesus Christ?
For that matter if that's the case, why do we need a saviour at all?
Never mind the nine manifestations, God, Jesus, ... just take an aspirin. <_<
I think that now YOU are taking something completely out of context.
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Outfield
I heard that something as simple as an aspirin could get rid of a devil spirit also.........
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Goey
If I had remebered it I would have brought it up, because its downright stupid. If an aspirin can drive out a devil spirit then so can a soapy enema or a good shot of tobasco sauce. Maybe garlic wreaths do repel vampires.
I am glad you mentioned it Mike. It shows how VPW grapsed at straws to make his theological system fit like a hand in a glove.
Logic:
Believer 1: I have a headache
Beleiver 2: Doctor says that disease is oppression from Satan and a headache is disease (dis- ease)
Do you want me to pray for your deliverance & healing?
Believer 1: No, I'll just take an aspirin.
30 minutes later .....
Believer 1: My headache is gone.
Believer 2: Wow, Aspirin really can drive out devil spirits just like Doctor taught !
Believer 1: Huh?
Wierwillian logic at its best.
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waysider
I must concur with Outfield.(regarding oppression, depression and possession.)
Page 21
i. Spirits affecting the mind
(2) Spirit of Oppression---Generates feelings of persecution from external sources. ("everything is closing in".)
(3)Spirit of Depression----Has internal implications.
So, to answer your question, MIKE, the difference between possession and oppression is that possession is a state of being, whereas oppression(in the context of the information taught in the Advanced Class) is a spiritual entity.
Re: the statement about aspirin.
A scriptural reference would be nice but I will accept a syllabus reference of proof that he taught it.
We know he could not have gotten this by direct revelation because there are countless teachings that state that revelation can not contradict the Word.
The Word says spirits are cast out in the name of Jesus Christ therefore, saying they are cast out by ingestion of aspirin is a contradiction of God's Word.
Hence, It does not appear that Wierwille could have reached this conclusion by either direct revelation or scriptural reference.
If, in fact, you do know where the scriptures would substantiate this or can refer to a specific section from the AC syllabus, by all means, feel free to do so.
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GarthP2000
"In the Name of Bayer, I command thee to come OUT, thou foul spirit!!"
Mike, this is further proof that you and your PFAL Master Wierwille are 2 sick puppies.
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Mike
More detail on aspirin:
Dr taught that it was POSSIBLE, IN SOME CASES, not that it was causative for most or all cases.
I'm glad at least one person remembers this. Thanks Outfield!
Dr said that in SOME situations the aspirin makes it difficult for the spirit to operate in that section of the brain where the aspirin is (using figurative language here) slowing things down (or whatever it does technically). With the added difficulty the spirit leaves for better pastures.
***
More detail on oppression:
I've always thought (and I may need more learning here) that there are two operations, possession and oppression. All spirits oppress until they or others can get in and posses.
There may be one spirit that specializes in the operation of oppression. If I learn more I'll report on it.
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doojable
I think that "aspirin" was a code word for "Drambuie."
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Mike
doojable,
One person remembered it, to all the rest it's a brand new idea.
Maybe it would be a good idea to think about it for a while before rejecting it so quickly.
At any rate, it ONCE AGAIN shows that many things slipped by us unawares or were forgotten.
To properly extract the most benefit from what we were taught it would help TO KNOW what we were taught.
Even for those who just want to criticize what we were taught it would help TO KNOW what we were taught.
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doojable
The one person who remembered it was never in TWI. That poster was in an offshoot.
Maybe it isn't so much that it slipped away unawares as much as you immortalizing every word that came from the mouth of a leacherous, pretend minister that wouldn't know a genuine healing....
oh wait - he didn't know genuine healing - or else he would have taken an aspirin.
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