...and of course, because of everyone's great learning capacity and retentive memories, I'm sure we are all now poised and ready to integrate the following more advanced information into the discussion.
From the Advanced Class syllabus' "16 Keys top Walking in the Spirit" we read:
Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.
Discuss and explain... if you can. <_<
And when what someone knew by their 5 senses contradicted what vpw and the inner circle
had decided, they were to discard what they knew by their 5 senses and do what the MOG
or MOGlet said. There's been plenty of examples posted, including Way Builders having
to redo completed jobs to an inferior standard because they were told to.
(And then there's the use of the inappropriate wood in Ohio, which has resulted
in a LOT of frivilous maintenance work to maintain wood that was never meant for
Ohio weather, just to rattle off a second example.)
A rule was a rule. Except when vpw decided it didn't apply. Then you just accepted
whatever came out of his mouth. (Some of us still do this one.)
Have you ever read Arthur Koestler's (of "The Thirteenth Tribe" fame) book "The Sleep Walkers"?
It documents great advancements in science that took place as the scientist dreamed at night after totally failing to get the answer by the normal methods. The most famous example is the chemist who dreamed of a ring of (I think 6) snakes devouring each others' tail in a circle. The next morning he solved his previously intractable problem and discovered benzine.
Reminds me how Psychology is no more YOUR field than it was vpw's field.
During sleep-time, it's well-known even among laymen that the mind is processing the
events of the last 24 hours, especially during REM sleep. Thus, after extensive study or
experience, it's good to give the mind sleep-time to process the memories.
I've made a point of doing just that, to maximize learning.
A number of times, I've solved something that I was stuck on by napping or resting my mind-
I've woken up with the answer worked out.
That's not revelation, nor a portentuous dream, that's the subconscious catching up and
drawing the connections the conscious mind missed.
Please allow my drawing attention to the understated.
I'd re-write your sentence to read "That is not IN MY OPINION how a MOG is to confront evil."
If God had a differing opinion for that particular set of situations, and then told vpw to do it in print, then that's God's business and He need not consult you about it.
Or course, that's a big "if" as I well know.
Would be strangely inefficient, considering all the more efficient ways God had
at his disposal in this example, from SNS tapes/hookups, to corps grad nights,
thru ROA keynote teachings, and so on.
If a God determined this would be THE method of transmission, one might logically
wonder if this God was serious about getting this news out after all....
Please allow my drawing attention to the understated.
I'd re-write your sentence to read "That is not IN MY OPINION how a MOG is to confront evil."
Don't put words in my mouth, or try to re-write my sentences. I'm an adult and I can speak for myself.
You make a big "IF" statement. So you're assuming that your assumption is correct. That is a double assumption and you have not only put words in my mouth, you have also done the same with God.
It's as dishonest as doing research and only looking at the facts that prove your theory while disregarding all the rest.
When VP wanted leaders to know something - really KNOW it - he made darn sure that we were all gathered in a room and heard what he had to say. He may have done it by letter, or tape, or phone hook-up. He was not shy about making his wishes known. He even would have written it in the monthly newsletter to the Corps.
There was never any question about new class, or a monetary gift that required that we ask people for money. We all knew when an Advance was coming. The structure of the Way Tree was used to pass on information - much as a phone tree is used.
Waysider -- I agree 100%. Since docvic claims that speaking in tongues was NOT AVAILABLE,
until the day of Pentecost ---- HOW'S COME (sorry -- I just HAD to say that),
rev was received, and given to the OT prophets?? Or even Jesus (for that matter??)
According to the *word of docvic -- it just couldn't be.
The AC syllabus seems to be fraught with error, eh? ;)
dmiller,
YOU TOO! Up so late!
I think he means that if you want to significantly GROW your ability to receive revelation you’re going to have to face a significant foe and use ALL that God has made available in order to succeed.
Because of this, NT believers stand an MUCH better opportunity to receive revelation since they have extra leverage over the resisting powers. If a NT believe neglects this extra leverage then something’s wrong and that growth in receiving revelation is not going to happen.
Does that make any sense?
In other words, the number of people who COULD revelation was rare in the OT, but that number has the potential of being greater in the NT with SIT.
In other other words, if SIT were neglected CHANCES ARE you aren't going to get heavy revy... unless you're one of those RARE individuals like an OT prophet... not too many of them...
In other other other words, the SIT Key#3 to Walking in the Spirit was just that ... A KEY! not an iron-clad hard-fast rule...
That's your opinion.
Whenever something went wrong, it was never wrong teaching, only wrong application.
It was the Christian's fault.
In the Word-Faith movement (Kenyon, Hinn, Copeland, vpw, etc), this is a pretty
common practice- BLAME THE BELIEVER.
Guarantee success if a certain formula is enacted.
When the formula fails, claim the formula worked but the Christian failed to use the
formula properly.
I unfortunately DO remember scenarios like that, it's just that they were much more in the later years.
I was pretty lucky in that I was able to dodge the dark spots in the ministry, in the early years.
As the years went by I'd hear more dark stories, but somehow I kept finding great learning situations.
Finally the dark spots became prevalent... around 1985ish.
I think God got the job done that He wanted done. The books got printed and distributed all around the globe.
If there had been no ministry, a similar percentage of us would have gotten eaten up by some other of life's many kinds of tragedies by now... and THEN eventually we ALL get hit by some kind of overwhelming tragedy, and then that's it. Everyone suffers and dies...
It's just that in that grueling universal human process of suffering and dying (mixed with some laughs and loves) we grads, especially OLGs, got to see something perfect, and it's still here to see again.
Got to see something perfect?? Nope, I saw scritpure tortured into a weapon to defraud and assault innocent people. It wasn`t pretty, it wasn`t good, it left a swath of death and destruction.
I certainly don`t think that God had any part of the pain, humiliation and degredation that adherance to pfal brought us.
The essence of this is that we can't be lazy and expect to be spiritual too. We must exert the effort to seek, find, and then learn what we can, and THEN God comes in with revelation.
I was always taught that to IGNORE the five senses was stupid; but, yes, spiritual realities are greater.
As far as Key #4 was concerned, though, it was always taught that what you could know BY READING THE BIBLE you were expected to know.
George
George,
Yes, the whole key reads "Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know."
HOWEVER, Dr used an example in the AC where it was NOT 5 senses scripture reading that illustrated the proper collection of sense information. It was where Jesus heard that the man born blind, whom he had healed, was thrown out of the temple. Jesus ASKED people where the man was.
The laziness factor in studying the Word applied to other types of needed facts too. The Key #4 was primarily aimed at not being lazy in scripture reading, but it applied elsewhere too.
Got to see something perfect?? Nope, I saw scritpure tortured into a weapon to defraud and assault innocent people. It wasn`t pretty, it wasn`t good, it left a swath of death and destruction.
I certainly don`t think that God had any part of the pain, humiliation and degredation that adherance to pfal brought us.
rascal,
Why did you stay then? I stayed for the good stuff, and it was plenteous. Are you sure you are not just forgetting that which WAS perfect? There HAD to be STRONG reasons to tolerate the BS, and there WAS BS in there too. Maybe if you exercised your analytical skills here at GreaseSpot more on rekindling the positives your memory would spot that which is perfect.
The laziness factor in studying the Word applied to other types of needed facts too. The Key #4 was primarily aimed at not being lazy in scripture reading, but it applied elsewhere too.
Why did you stay then? I stayed for the good stuff, and it was plenteous. Are you sure you are not just forgetting that which WAS perfect? There HAD to be STRONG reasons to tolerate the BS, and there WAS BS in there too. Maybe if you exercised your analytical skills here at GreaseSpot more on rekindling the positives your memory would spot that which is perfect.
Some of stayed because we were lazy.
Some of us stayed because we thought we could make a difference.
Some of us stayed because we had all our friends and family in that ministry and thought we had no where else to go.
Some of us stayed for fear of being possessed and out of God's will if we left.
I'm sure there are more reasons...
I stayed until what I really saw what I had previously only thought I had seen... and then the unraveling started...
No, no, doojable, I wasn't linking laziness with staying.
The laziness I mentioned was linked to gathering 5 senses information.
The staying I asked about was linked to my intuition that SOMETHING very good that was in there too, along with the BS, and it was the good and perfect that motivated staying.
For some of us it was HARD WORK to stay and tolerate the BS.
I think God got the job done that He wanted done. The books got printed and distributed all around the globe.
If there had been no ministry, a similar percentage of us would have gotten eaten up by some other of life's many kinds of tragedies by now... and THEN eventually we ALL get hit by some kind of overwhelming tragedy, and then that's it. Everyone suffers and dies...
It's just that in that grueling universal human process of suffering and dying (mixed with some laughs and loves) we grads, especially OLGs, got to see something perfect, and it's still here to see again.
How do you know that we would have gotten"eaten up" God would have provided a way.
People sdmetimes live all thier lives without any suffering.want to look at somthing perfect? Ps138:2
God magnified his word not vics above his name.
If you think the job is done you are sadly mistaken,people still need preaching ,last I saw it took a
How do you know that we would have gotten"eaten up" God would have provided a way.
People sdmetimes live all thier lives without any suffering.want to look at somthing perfect? Ps138:2
God magnified his word not vics above his name.
If you think the job is done you are sadly mistaken,people still need preaching ,last I saw it took a
live body to do it.Not some dead mans writings.
Ouch! A dead man's writings. Moses is dead. Should we throw out his writings?
***
You ask How do I know? Statistics.
Statistics like: all the Twelve Apostles died, fourteen including Paul and Barnabas. Where was the way God provided for them to not get eaten up and die? He may have provided it, but it wasn't received. Eventually everyone dies. I was just looking at the grand overview and seeing that the suffering we experienced was rather trivial (compared to victims of war, plague, disaster...), but the benefits exceeded all since the first century.
***
Yes, the books need a preacher. Where will we find someone who is willing to announce the good news that the books are still good for us, and even better than the first time? Any ideas?
Yes, the books need a preacher. Where will we find someone who is willing to announce the good news that the books are still good for us, and even better than the first time? Any ideas?
VP's books don't need a preacher. "They" have no needs. People and other living things have needs.
Since when are we supposed to preach about anyone other than God and His son, Jesus Christ?
God's Word is as much God as God is God. If the books ARE God-breathed, then they are also the mind of Christ.
***
You wrote earlier: “Mike, most of us are prone to gather five senses information. Uhhh... it's the first thing we do as babies.”
Yes, however, the way religion is set up, it’s often the case that when someone gets that “religious bug” or even genuinely born again, FIRST THING they can do is tend to think that any little thought or emotion is revelation.
When this happens dutiful reading of the scriptures and dutiful searching for pertinent facts in human relations both fall by the wayside. Here is the laziness to which I had referred. It was this common human phenomenon that Key #4 was addressed.
God's Word is as much God as God is God. If the books ARE God-breathed, then they are also the mind of Christ.
Another leap in logic with that big "IF." BTW- God is infinite while books are finite. So even the Bible is not really "as much God as God is God." In fact any written work that is "the Word' is not as much God as God is God. (In anticipation of you saying that the Bible isn't the Word at all and that is why God needed VP to write the collaterals.)
You wrote earlier: “Mike, most of us are prone to gather five senses information. Uhhh... it's the first thing we do as babies.”
Yes, however, the way religion is set up, it’s often the case that when someone gets that “religious bug” or even genuinely born again, FIRST THING they can do is tend to think that any little thought or emotion is revelation.
When this happens dutiful reading of the scriptures and dutiful searching for pertinent facts in human relations both fall by the wayside. Here is the laziness to which I had referred. It was this common human phenomenon that Key #4 was addressed.
Mike - the big complaint among the "listening audience" here is that they were told that when they were "dutiful" they were then told they weren't being spiritual. The "laziness" to which you referred was NOT laziness at all. Many people asked questions and looked more deeply into the Word. BUT they were told that they were relying on their 5 senses and not spiritual at all.
And THAT mentality was passed down from the Big Kahuna - vpw.
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WordWolf
And when what someone knew by their 5 senses contradicted what vpw and the inner circle
had decided, they were to discard what they knew by their 5 senses and do what the MOG
or MOGlet said. There's been plenty of examples posted, including Way Builders having
to redo completed jobs to an inferior standard because they were told to.
(And then there's the use of the inappropriate wood in Ohio, which has resulted
in a LOT of frivilous maintenance work to maintain wood that was never meant for
Ohio weather, just to rattle off a second example.)
A rule was a rule. Except when vpw decided it didn't apply. Then you just accepted
whatever came out of his mouth. (Some of us still do this one.)
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dmiller
Waysider -- I agree 100%. Since docvic claims that speaking in tongues was NOT AVAILABLE,
until the day of Pentecost ---- HOW'S COME (sorry -- I just HAD to say that),
rev was received, and given to the OT prophets?? Or even Jesus (for that matter??)
According to the *word of docvic -- it just couldn't be.
The AC syllabus seems to be fraught with error, eh? ;)
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Mike
WordWolf,
What are you doing up so late?
No one was perfect in the application of the doctrine.
The doctrine (especially written) was pure, but the we all blew the applications at times, even vpw.
But then again, SOME TIMES it went phenomenally well.
It's what went RIGHT that I try to hunt down and figure out.
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WordWolf
Reminds me how Psychology is no more YOUR field than it was vpw's field.
During sleep-time, it's well-known even among laymen that the mind is processing the
events of the last 24 hours, especially during REM sleep. Thus, after extensive study or
experience, it's good to give the mind sleep-time to process the memories.
I've made a point of doing just that, to maximize learning.
A number of times, I've solved something that I was stuck on by napping or resting my mind-
I've woken up with the answer worked out.
That's not revelation, nor a portentuous dream, that's the subconscious catching up and
drawing the connections the conscious mind missed.
Would be strangely inefficient, considering all the more efficient ways God had
at his disposal in this example, from SNS tapes/hookups, to corps grad nights,
thru ROA keynote teachings, and so on.
If a God determined this would be THE method of transmission, one might logically
wonder if this God was serious about getting this news out after all....
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doojable
Don't put words in my mouth, or try to re-write my sentences. I'm an adult and I can speak for myself.
You make a big "IF" statement. So you're assuming that your assumption is correct. That is a double assumption and you have not only put words in my mouth, you have also done the same with God.
It's as dishonest as doing research and only looking at the facts that prove your theory while disregarding all the rest.
When VP wanted leaders to know something - really KNOW it - he made darn sure that we were all gathered in a room and heard what he had to say. He may have done it by letter, or tape, or phone hook-up. He was not shy about making his wishes known. He even would have written it in the monthly newsletter to the Corps.
There was never any question about new class, or a monetary gift that required that we ask people for money. We all knew when an Advance was coming. The structure of the Way Tree was used to pass on information - much as a phone tree is used.
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WordWolf
It's Friday night.
That's your opinion.
Whenever something went wrong, it was never wrong teaching, only wrong application.
It was the Christian's fault.
In the Word-Faith movement (Kenyon, Hinn, Copeland, vpw, etc), this is a pretty
common practice- BLAME THE BELIEVER.
Guarantee success if a certain formula is enacted.
When the formula fails, claim the formula worked but the Christian failed to use the
formula properly.
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Mike
dmiller,
YOU TOO! Up so late!
I think he means that if you want to significantly GROW your ability to receive revelation you’re going to have to face a significant foe and use ALL that God has made available in order to succeed.
Because of this, NT believers stand an MUCH better opportunity to receive revelation since they have extra leverage over the resisting powers. If a NT believe neglects this extra leverage then something’s wrong and that growth in receiving revelation is not going to happen.
Does that make any sense?
In other words, the number of people who COULD revelation was rare in the OT, but that number has the potential of being greater in the NT with SIT.
In other other words, if SIT were neglected CHANCES ARE you aren't going to get heavy revy... unless you're one of those RARE individuals like an OT prophet... not too many of them...
In other other other words, the SIT Key#3 to Walking in the Spirit was just that ... A KEY! not an iron-clad hard-fast rule...
I unfortunately DO remember scenarios like that, it's just that they were much more in the later years.
I was pretty lucky in that I was able to dodge the dark spots in the ministry, in the early years.
As the years went by I'd hear more dark stories, but somehow I kept finding great learning situations.
Finally the dark spots became prevalent... around 1985ish.
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doojable
Just like the 5 KEYS to Receiving Anything From God?
You take it upon yourself to make a lot of assumptions for what God does and how revelation worked in the OT.
The "dark spots"? Geez, Mike. I got in in '78 and people were leaving for precisely the stuff that WordWolf mentions.
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Mike
doojable,
I think God got the job done that He wanted done. The books got printed and distributed all around the globe.
If there had been no ministry, a similar percentage of us would have gotten eaten up by some other of life's many kinds of tragedies by now... and THEN eventually we ALL get hit by some kind of overwhelming tragedy, and then that's it. Everyone suffers and dies...
It's just that in that grueling universal human process of suffering and dying (mixed with some laughs and loves) we grads, especially OLGs, got to see something perfect, and it's still here to see again.
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doojable
No Mike, I don't buy that for an instant. My Bible says that those that hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled.
I believe that we stayed too long expecting a buffet from a fast food meal.
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rascal
Got to see something perfect?? Nope, I saw scritpure tortured into a weapon to defraud and assault innocent people. It wasn`t pretty, it wasn`t good, it left a swath of death and destruction.
I certainly don`t think that God had any part of the pain, humiliation and degredation that adherance to pfal brought us.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I was always taught that to IGNORE the five senses was stupid; but, yes, spiritual realities are greater.
As far as Key #4 was concerned, though, it was always taught that what you could know BY READING THE BIBLE you were expected to know.
George
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cman
one thing is funny about all this-
'we are expected to know'
dumbest thing i ever heard
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Mike
cman,
The essence of this is that we can't be lazy and expect to be spiritual too. We must exert the effort to seek, find, and then learn what we can, and THEN God comes in with revelation.
George,
Yes, the whole key reads "Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know."
HOWEVER, Dr used an example in the AC where it was NOT 5 senses scripture reading that illustrated the proper collection of sense information. It was where Jesus heard that the man born blind, whom he had healed, was thrown out of the temple. Jesus ASKED people where the man was.
The laziness factor in studying the Word applied to other types of needed facts too. The Key #4 was primarily aimed at not being lazy in scripture reading, but it applied elsewhere too.
rascal,
Why did you stay then? I stayed for the good stuff, and it was plenteous. Are you sure you are not just forgetting that which WAS perfect? There HAD to be STRONG reasons to tolerate the BS, and there WAS BS in there too. Maybe if you exercised your analytical skills here at GreaseSpot more on rekindling the positives your memory would spot that which is perfect.
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doojable
Some of stayed because we were lazy.
Some of us stayed because we thought we could make a difference.
Some of us stayed because we had all our friends and family in that ministry and thought we had no where else to go.
Some of us stayed for fear of being possessed and out of God's will if we left.
I'm sure there are more reasons...
I stayed until what I really saw what I had previously only thought I had seen... and then the unraveling started...
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Mike
No, no, doojable, I wasn't linking laziness with staying.
The laziness I mentioned was linked to gathering 5 senses information.
The staying I asked about was linked to my intuition that SOMETHING very good that was in there too, along with the BS, and it was the good and perfect that motivated staying.
For some of us it was HARD WORK to stay and tolerate the BS.
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doojable
Mike, most of us are prone to gather five senses information.
Uhhh... it's the first thing we do as babies.
And as I recall, there was a LOT of questions asked about folks. <_<
I know what you meant - but I was saying that there were many reasons for staying - including laziness - that were not SOMETHING PERFECT.
In fact, I'll add another reason some of us stayed:
Some of us stayed because we just couldn't believe that we had made such a huge mistake that took so many years of our lives.
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polar bear
One thing is true:many of us stayed too long because we were deceived by the 5 senses.
We thought VP was a great leader and MOG. I think all of us agree on that point.
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frank123lol
How do you know that we would have gotten"eaten up" God would have provided a way.
People sdmetimes live all thier lives without any suffering.want to look at somthing perfect? Ps138:2
God magnified his word not vics above his name.
If you think the job is done you are sadly mistaken,people still need preaching ,last I saw it took a
live body to do it.Not some dead mans writings.
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Mike
Ouch! A dead man's writings. Moses is dead. Should we throw out his writings?
***
You ask How do I know? Statistics.
Statistics like: all the Twelve Apostles died, fourteen including Paul and Barnabas. Where was the way God provided for them to not get eaten up and die? He may have provided it, but it wasn't received. Eventually everyone dies. I was just looking at the grand overview and seeing that the suffering we experienced was rather trivial (compared to victims of war, plague, disaster...), but the benefits exceeded all since the first century.
***
Yes, the books need a preacher. Where will we find someone who is willing to announce the good news that the books are still good for us, and even better than the first time? Any ideas?
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doojable
VP's books don't need a preacher. "They" have no needs. People and other living things have needs.
Since when are we supposed to preach about anyone other than God and His son, Jesus Christ?
Mike, your idolotry is showing...
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Mike
doojable,
God's Word is as much God as God is God. If the books ARE God-breathed, then they are also the mind of Christ.
***
You wrote earlier: “Mike, most of us are prone to gather five senses information. Uhhh... it's the first thing we do as babies.”
Yes, however, the way religion is set up, it’s often the case that when someone gets that “religious bug” or even genuinely born again, FIRST THING they can do is tend to think that any little thought or emotion is revelation.
When this happens dutiful reading of the scriptures and dutiful searching for pertinent facts in human relations both fall by the wayside. Here is the laziness to which I had referred. It was this common human phenomenon that Key #4 was addressed.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
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doojable
Another leap in logic with that big "IF." BTW- God is infinite while books are finite. So even the Bible is not really "as much God as God is God." In fact any written work that is "the Word' is not as much God as God is God. (In anticipation of you saying that the Bible isn't the Word at all and that is why God needed VP to write the collaterals.)
Mike - the big complaint among the "listening audience" here is that they were told that when they were "dutiful" they were then told they weren't being spiritual. The "laziness" to which you referred was NOT laziness at all. Many people asked questions and looked more deeply into the Word. BUT they were told that they were relying on their 5 senses and not spiritual at all.
And THAT mentality was passed down from the Big Kahuna - vpw.
So much for perfection...
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cman
It didn't have a damn thing to do with being lazy or not.
It was about reading wierwille's books and the bible.
A lazy person can read to.
But to know something or not know something, DON"T have anything to do with being lazy in this ridiculous commandment that is given to God by a fool.
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