Personally I think it's an idiotic notion to ignore the 5 senses.. God gave them to you for a purpose..
The problem I see is when we rely on our 5-senses which in a sense is relying on ourselves rather than putting our trust and reliance in God. I have a broken arm.. Great.. What can I do to help it heal. Ignore it? Hell no.. It won't fix itself.. Yes we go to God and ask for His help. His healing. But to not see what the 5-senses say and take action is like saying I know what to do but I'm not going to do it. We don't tempt God by jumping off a cliff and expecting him to save us, neither are we to tempt God by ignoring the 5 senses and thinking it will take care of itself cause we love God and he'll do it for us.. God gave us a brain and 5 senses to use. But our trust is resting in God that he will ultimately take care of our needs. We don't have perfect knowledge of what's needed, neither do the doctors, and the honest ones will tell you they don't understand it all. Doctors know in part, and we know in part (probably less than the doctors though), but all 5 -senses.. And so we do what we know to do 5-senses, looking at them long and hard. But while we may go to the doctor and do whatever needs be, we never forget it is Him who cares for us, causes it to heal, allows us to breathe and live and have our being. So while we go about taking care of the things that need be to the best we know to do, we realize it isn't us or the doctor that heals the damn arm, it's God who designed the dang thing to work knows exactly what the perfect solution is and is working in the sitution to cause the best to happen toward us! It all comes down to trusting in Him, but not temping him and trying to force God to do what YOU want just cause you want a 60 second miracle and not taking the necessary 5 -senses steps.
Well, just my thoughts.. Who knows, I can be wrong! lol... I thought it was a broken arm, and you said it was a leg.. Shows you how much my 5-senses works! lol
I dunno.. outside of some kind of bizarre Pavlovian conditioning, I don't think people even have the option to not look at, or not trust the five senses..
I believe that the 5 senses are deceived and we have to trust in God and our walk with him. (Ever smelled an onion and bitten into an apple? Or looked down railroad tracks? Or stared at a 3D poster?) There is more than meets the eye, smell, taste, touch, sound.
I did a brief study on this while I was really bible thumping -- it's always piqued my curiousity.
As for a broken arm -- you can receive medical attention but also believe to be healed up quickly. These techniques are used alot in Eastern cultures -- The Way Intl. was not unique in teaching this.
I believe this was one of the more insidiously evil teachings of twi.
DOn`t look at the 5 senses translated into don`t question ANYTHING your leader tells you to do, no matter HOW assinine.
To look at the impact the actions being required would have on your life, was to be looking at things 5 senses wise...ANYTIME you tried to object to mistreatment, rediculous control, things being requisitioned in the name of God...such as your money, your vehicle, your furniture, your time, your life....you were guilty of looking at things through your 5 senses...
It was the playing card they pulled out any time they wanted to mistreat you...or worse...insist that you mistreat the people in your fellowship, your friends your family members....even down to throwing the kids out on the streets...
Got a problem with any of that???? Renew you mind and quit looking at things from a 5 senses natural man point of view.
A lot of the time, I think some people couldn't feel the back pains, etc. etc.. because after a session with some of those wackos, you had a whole different kind of pain to deal with..
there's a psychological term for it.. it escapes me at the moment..
I heard that phrase used when a intellectually challenged clergy was intimidated by a mere "twigger" because he was smart. Oh and how he hated it when someone got a degree! (Unless of course, it was his kid.)
WTF do we have senses for if we're not supposed to use them?? :blink:
That was one of the dumbest things and Rascal said it so well, I can't really add to that - it was nothing more than yet another tactic to control our lives: Don't trust your own senses and brain - pay no attention to that still small voice - We'll tell you what to think, feel and do.
I have to say that I never bought into that BS. I trusted that God meant it when He announced "it is very good." after Adam and Eve were finished... with their five senses in full working order.
He gave us both because we need both. So, no matter what some MOG told me - I just kept doing what I wanted.
TWI was never any good at teaching how tobalance different aspects of life. There was always a theme and a new catch phrase in a sound bite. Fast food religion in a throw away container.
during training I was told not just to use my physical 5 senses, but my spiritual 5 senses on the job. I was told that these senses would strengthen as I used them.
smell with your spirit
see with your spirit
taste with your spirit
feel with your spirit
hear with your spirit
I wasn't hired to work, but to use the manifestations of the spirit.
with these new powers I was able to fend off Vader, and destroy the Death Star. . .
...and of course, because of everyone's great learning capacity and retentive memories, I'm sure we are all now poised and ready to integrate the following more advanced information into the discussion.
From the Advanced Class syllabus' "16 Keys top Walking in the Spirit" we read:
Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.
...and of course, because of everyone's great learning capacity and retentive memories, I'm sure we are all now poised and ready to integrate the following more advanced information into the discussion.
From the Advanced Class syllabus' "16 Keys top Walking in the Spirit" we read:
Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.
Discuss and explain.
Mike - I'm sure that a lot of us remember that teaching. I'm sure that a lot of us even went so far as to try to live that teaching.
Of course problems ensued when you (anyone - not just you) had a leader that used his affected spiritual prowess to undermine what you knew to be true.
You know as well as anyone that lots of things got re-interpreted on the field. Phrases like, "don't walk by the five senses," and "your so smart you tend to lean on your 5 senses instead of walking spiritually." were common.
Now, here's the kicker. VPW knew this was going on. He never reproved that behaviour, nor he teach to correct the wrong doctrine. When I was in rez I was taught that it took more teaching to reprove and correct properly than it did to lay out the doctrine to begin with.
Honestly, I believe it was convenient for VPW to keep that wrong doctrine going.
You outlined EXACTLY what I meant by TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions).
However, I think you simply missed how, when and where Dr tried to do something about it. He may have not done it the way YOU wanted it done, but he did it.
In his last magazine issue he TWICE (in both the main article and in the Our Times editorial) issued the warning that “dark clouds” were enveloping us. In many Our Times articles he addressed things in a way that if we had been paying attention we’d have got.
Since he put many corrections to the TVTs in the tape and print record, these records serve to humble us into seeing that we did not in any way RECEIVE all that was taught. Many of the things that went wrong (or went MORE wrong) were because of us OLGs slowing down the learning processes as we got more "Mature" in the Word and/or got more official status. Example in this topic: when "Don't go by your five senses" was inappropriately blurted out, we could have learned Key #4 enough to bandi it about in the presence of the kind of immature leaders reported on this thread. I did that. I also noticed that few took it seriously.
The good news is that those attempts by Dr to correct things are still in the record and I’ve already reported many here. The good news is that we can still get it right. AND there are many more things besides correction. The stuff on the Return is dazzling!
What went most right in Dr’s ministry was the print record he AND his editors AND his teachers hammered out under God’s supervision. Sure many things went wrong, but why focus ALWAYS on that? Just for a little while, here, thank God that what went right in the ministry AND in all of our lives is that we saw God and His Son in PFAL, and that we can do it again even better the second time. It’s all in print.
There are many ways and times Dr tried to correct things, but we OLGs (Older Leaderlike Grads) got less and less meek to Dr’s later teachings as we got to know better and better his earlier teachings (film class). There are so many surprises in the print (and tape) record that I can totally assure you, doojabble, that you are simply unaware of all the attempts he made. Thank God, that as we find these items, we can fix things like the issue under question.
***
I was being sarcastic about no one remembering key #4 because no one brought it up.
Seemed so pertinent that I used color, and I thank you for repeating it.. twice the impact.
Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.
In conflict:
Thread Topic Title - Don't look at the five senses
Some of you might want to challenge me with:
"Since I heard Dr teach both of these items, that proves he was wrong by contradicting himself."
Ok, I'll accept, but first we might want to document the source of "Don't look at the five senses" to examine it's context, RIGHT? Surely we want to make sure the wording is right before we proceed. Why DID people often say "Don't look at the five senses" if they knew Dr taught that Key #4?
But first, is there anyone here that can reconcile these two seemingly contradictory statements?
When were we taught that it WAS it right to go by the 5 senses, and when was it NOT right?
In PFAL: Wierwille writes that God can only speak to that which He is, namely, spirit.
In truth: Leaving aside the presumptive fact that God can speak to whomever He chooses, whenever He chooses, however He chooses, this statement fails purely on a mechanical basis. In order to communicate with people, God has to do one of two things. He must either come into concretion (ie, use a voice, a burning bush, whatever) or he must place His spirit on or in someone. The spirit then speaks to our minds... but how? If God, who is spirit, cannot speak to our minds, how can the spirit He places within us speak to our minds? And if the spirit within us CAN speak to our minds, why can't God? And by the way, isn't "coming into concretion" in and of itself a contradiction of the statement "God can only speak to that which He is?" The answer is, yes.
Further, Wierwille states that unless you have the spirit, God has to come into concretion to speak to you. There's no Biblical evidence to support this. What of God communicating with un-anointed folks like King Abimelech (Gen 20:3) and Laban, Jacob's crooked father-in-law (Gen 31:24) by dreams? Dreams are not in the five senses. Therefore, they are a direct
communication from God to the recipient, through their minds, without the spirit.
Discussion: Wierwille's thesis is meaningless. God Almighty can speak to anyone or anything. He may have different ways of communicating with different people, but He can speak to anyone.
I would contend that it's been men (and yes, women too) who were vitally tuned in to their five senses that have pushed technology and science to the point where we can live in the manner that we do today in the Western World.
It wasn't Bible students or theologians who developed the Bessemer process for refining steel, or reduced the manpower for agriculture from 30% to 1 or 2 %, or discovered penicillin or the polio vaccine. It was people utilizing the scientific method, paying close attention to exactly what their evil "five senses" were telling them.
I think, had we depended solely on revelations from The Almighty and His Word over the centuries, we'd still be living in caves...
I would contend that it's been men (and yes, women too) who were vitally tuned in to their five senses that have pushed technology and science to the point where we can live in the manner that we do today in the Western World.
It wasn't Bible students or theologians who developed the Bessemer process for refining steel, or reduced the manpower for agriculture from 30% to 1 or 2 %, or discovered penicillin or the polio vaccine. It was people utilizing the scientific method, paying close attention to exactly what their evil "five senses" were telling them.
I think, had we depended solely on revelations from The Almighty and His Word over the centuries, we'd still be living in caves...
Have you ever read Arthur Koestler's (of "The Thirteenth Tribe" fame) book "The Sleep Walkers"?
It documents great advancements in science that took place as the scientist dreamed at night after totally failing to get the answer by the normal methods. The most famous example is the chemist who dreamed of a ring of (I think 6) snakes devouring each others' tail in a circle. The next morning he solved his previously intractable problem and discovered benzine.
***
polarbear, your answer is excellent. You quoted Key #11 - Do not be deceived by the five senses.
So how do we know when the five senses are to be accepted and when are they to be rejected?
The hydrocarbon that we now call benzene was first isolated in 1825 by Michael Faraday from an oily film that deposited from the gas used for lighting. Faraday did some experiments, and discovered that the new compound had equal numbers of carbons and hydrogens, and so named it 'carbureted hydrogen'."
Michael Faraday discovered benzene,
Kekule', first posited on the structure of the benzene ring, some several decades after Faraday's discovery. A concept which he later revised after a good bit of thought and observation, IIRC ...
I never got the Way rag, after the free subscription ran out. Didn't get the tapes either. I couldn't afford them.
That is not how a MOG is to confront evil.
Please allow my drawing attention to the understated.
I'd re-write your sentence to read "That is not IN MY OPINION how a MOG is to confront evil."
If God had a differing opinion for that particular set of situations, and then told vpw to do it in print, then that's God's business and He need not consult you about it.
Or course, that's a big "if" as I well know.
But then again, I have been looking at the printed materials for ten years now almost. I'm benefiting from them.
***
George Aar, yes it was the STRUCTURE of benzine to which I referred. It's circular. Someone had a dream about snakes in a circle and then saw that the carbon atoms in benzine were in the same positions. It's been a long time... like 40 years... since I was taught this stuff... high school and early college... long before PFAL... but what I had learned earlier then later fit well with what VPW taught about discovery and originality... oh my here's the back end of that pesky little plagiarism issue...
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Personally I think it's an idiotic notion to ignore the 5 senses.. God gave them to you for a purpose..
The problem I see is when we rely on our 5-senses which in a sense is relying on ourselves rather than putting our trust and reliance in God. I have a broken arm.. Great.. What can I do to help it heal. Ignore it? Hell no.. It won't fix itself.. Yes we go to God and ask for His help. His healing. But to not see what the 5-senses say and take action is like saying I know what to do but I'm not going to do it. We don't tempt God by jumping off a cliff and expecting him to save us, neither are we to tempt God by ignoring the 5 senses and thinking it will take care of itself cause we love God and he'll do it for us.. God gave us a brain and 5 senses to use. But our trust is resting in God that he will ultimately take care of our needs. We don't have perfect knowledge of what's needed, neither do the doctors, and the honest ones will tell you they don't understand it all. Doctors know in part, and we know in part (probably less than the doctors though), but all 5 -senses.. And so we do what we know to do 5-senses, looking at them long and hard. But while we may go to the doctor and do whatever needs be, we never forget it is Him who cares for us, causes it to heal, allows us to breathe and live and have our being. So while we go about taking care of the things that need be to the best we know to do, we realize it isn't us or the doctor that heals the damn arm, it's God who designed the dang thing to work knows exactly what the perfect solution is and is working in the sitution to cause the best to happen toward us! It all comes down to trusting in Him, but not temping him and trying to force God to do what YOU want just cause you want a 60 second miracle and not taking the necessary 5 -senses steps.
Well, just my thoughts.. Who knows, I can be wrong! lol... I thought it was a broken arm, and you said it was a leg.. Shows you how much my 5-senses works! lol
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Ham
I dunno.. outside of some kind of bizarre Pavlovian conditioning, I don't think people even have the option to not look at, or not trust the five senses..
"I think my back hurts.."
*kzzzorrtttt*
"no, that's negative.."
"But I really hurt.."
*kzzzzzzorrrrttt*
"we don't confess negatives here.."
"but.."
*kazzzorrrrrrtttt*
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Outfield
I believe that the 5 senses are deceived and we have to trust in God and our walk with him. (Ever smelled an onion and bitten into an apple? Or looked down railroad tracks? Or stared at a 3D poster?) There is more than meets the eye, smell, taste, touch, sound.
I did a brief study on this while I was really bible thumping -- it's always piqued my curiousity.
As for a broken arm -- you can receive medical attention but also believe to be healed up quickly. These techniques are used alot in Eastern cultures -- The Way Intl. was not unique in teaching this.
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rascal
I believe this was one of the more insidiously evil teachings of twi.
DOn`t look at the 5 senses translated into don`t question ANYTHING your leader tells you to do, no matter HOW assinine.
To look at the impact the actions being required would have on your life, was to be looking at things 5 senses wise...ANYTIME you tried to object to mistreatment, rediculous control, things being requisitioned in the name of God...such as your money, your vehicle, your furniture, your time, your life....you were guilty of looking at things through your 5 senses...
It was the playing card they pulled out any time they wanted to mistreat you...or worse...insist that you mistreat the people in your fellowship, your friends your family members....even down to throwing the kids out on the streets...
Got a problem with any of that???? Renew you mind and quit looking at things from a 5 senses natural man point of view.
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Ham
A lot of the time, I think some people couldn't feel the back pains, etc. etc.. because after a session with some of those wackos, you had a whole different kind of pain to deal with..
there's a psychological term for it.. it escapes me at the moment..
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doojable
I heard that phrase used when a intellectually challenged clergy was intimidated by a mere "twigger" because he was smart. Oh and how he hated it when someone got a degree! (Unless of course, it was his kid.)
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Belle
WTF do we have senses for if we're not supposed to use them?? :blink:
That was one of the dumbest things and Rascal said it so well, I can't really add to that - it was nothing more than yet another tactic to control our lives: Don't trust your own senses and brain - pay no attention to that still small voice - We'll tell you what to think, feel and do.
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doojable
I have to say that I never bought into that BS. I trusted that God meant it when He announced "it is very good." after Adam and Eve were finished... with their five senses in full working order.
He gave us both because we need both. So, no matter what some MOG told me - I just kept doing what I wanted.
TWI was never any good at teaching how tobalance different aspects of life. There was always a theme and a new catch phrase in a sound bite. Fast food religion in a throw away container.
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Bolshevik
during training I was told not just to use my physical 5 senses, but my spiritual 5 senses on the job. I was told that these senses would strengthen as I used them.
smell with your spirit
see with your spirit
taste with your spirit
feel with your spirit
hear with your spirit
I wasn't hired to work, but to use the manifestations of the spirit.
with these new powers I was able to fend off Vader, and destroy the Death Star. . .
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Mike
...and of course, because of everyone's great learning capacity and retentive memories, I'm sure we are all now poised and ready to integrate the following more advanced information into the discussion.
From the Advanced Class syllabus' "16 Keys top Walking in the Spirit" we read:
Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.
Discuss and explain... if you can. <_<
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doojable
Mike - I'm sure that a lot of us remember that teaching. I'm sure that a lot of us even went so far as to try to live that teaching.
Of course problems ensued when you (anyone - not just you) had a leader that used his affected spiritual prowess to undermine what you knew to be true.
You know as well as anyone that lots of things got re-interpreted on the field. Phrases like, "don't walk by the five senses," and "your so smart you tend to lean on your 5 senses instead of walking spiritually." were common.
Now, here's the kicker. VPW knew this was going on. He never reproved that behaviour, nor he teach to correct the wrong doctrine. When I was in rez I was taught that it took more teaching to reprove and correct properly than it did to lay out the doctrine to begin with.
Honestly, I believe it was convenient for VPW to keep that wrong doctrine going.
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waysider
From the same page of the AC syllabus:
Key # 3
"Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation."
Total Horse Cr@p!
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Mike
doojable,
You outlined EXACTLY what I meant by TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions).
However, I think you simply missed how, when and where Dr tried to do something about it. He may have not done it the way YOU wanted it done, but he did it.
In his last magazine issue he TWICE (in both the main article and in the Our Times editorial) issued the warning that “dark clouds” were enveloping us. In many Our Times articles he addressed things in a way that if we had been paying attention we’d have got.
Since he put many corrections to the TVTs in the tape and print record, these records serve to humble us into seeing that we did not in any way RECEIVE all that was taught. Many of the things that went wrong (or went MORE wrong) were because of us OLGs slowing down the learning processes as we got more "Mature" in the Word and/or got more official status. Example in this topic: when "Don't go by your five senses" was inappropriately blurted out, we could have learned Key #4 enough to bandi it about in the presence of the kind of immature leaders reported on this thread. I did that. I also noticed that few took it seriously.
The good news is that those attempts by Dr to correct things are still in the record and I’ve already reported many here. The good news is that we can still get it right. AND there are many more things besides correction. The stuff on the Return is dazzling!
What went most right in Dr’s ministry was the print record he AND his editors AND his teachers hammered out under God’s supervision. Sure many things went wrong, but why focus ALWAYS on that? Just for a little while, here, thank God that what went right in the ministry AND in all of our lives is that we saw God and His Son in PFAL, and that we can do it again even better the second time. It’s all in print.
There are many ways and times Dr tried to correct things, but we OLGs (Older Leaderlike Grads) got less and less meek to Dr’s later teachings as we got to know better and better his earlier teachings (film class). There are so many surprises in the print (and tape) record that I can totally assure you, doojabble, that you are simply unaware of all the attempts he made. Thank God, that as we find these items, we can fix things like the issue under question.
***
I was being sarcastic about no one remembering key #4 because no one brought it up.
Seemed so pertinent that I used color, and I thank you for repeating it.. twice the impact.
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Ham
what about "key" number ONE:
"To receive revelation, you MUST be MEEK"
sheesh..
didn't seem to keep the almighty from keeping his word and will from the most austere, unbelieving arrogant a**holes..
at times.
Usually it was "believe, or die".. or something like that..
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Mike
Ok, lets's get this discussion underway.
In review:
Key #4 - Study the Word much. What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know.
In conflict:
Thread Topic Title - Don't look at the five senses
Some of you might want to challenge me with:
"Since I heard Dr teach both of these items, that proves he was wrong by contradicting himself."
Ok, I'll accept, but first we might want to document the source of "Don't look at the five senses" to examine it's context, RIGHT? Surely we want to make sure the wording is right before we proceed. Why DID people often say "Don't look at the five senses" if they knew Dr taught that Key #4?
But first, is there anyone here that can reconcile these two seemingly contradictory statements?
When were we taught that it WAS it right to go by the 5 senses, and when was it NOT right?
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cman
It can not be reconciled.
PFAL chapter 18, p. 281, paragraph 2
and here
Error 24
In PFAL: Wierwille writes that God can only speak to that which He is, namely, spirit.
In truth: Leaving aside the presumptive fact that God can speak to whomever He chooses, whenever He chooses, however He chooses, this statement fails purely on a mechanical basis. In order to communicate with people, God has to do one of two things. He must either come into concretion (ie, use a voice, a burning bush, whatever) or he must place His spirit on or in someone. The spirit then speaks to our minds... but how? If God, who is spirit, cannot speak to our minds, how can the spirit He places within us speak to our minds? And if the spirit within us CAN speak to our minds, why can't God? And by the way, isn't "coming into concretion" in and of itself a contradiction of the statement "God can only speak to that which He is?" The answer is, yes.
Further, Wierwille states that unless you have the spirit, God has to come into concretion to speak to you. There's no Biblical evidence to support this. What of God communicating with un-anointed folks like King Abimelech (Gen 20:3) and Laban, Jacob's crooked father-in-law (Gen 31:24) by dreams? Dreams are not in the five senses. Therefore, they are a direct
communication from God to the recipient, through their minds, without the spirit.
Discussion: Wierwille's thesis is meaningless. God Almighty can speak to anyone or anything. He may have different ways of communicating with different people, but He can speak to anyone.
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polar bear
I think this whole issue can be cleared up by reviewing the correct phrase used which was "don't be deceived by the 5 senses.
This way we still can recognize the 5 senses but are aware that there are spirutual forces in play.
In the first place VP stole this information from BGL and secondly he didn't live it.
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George Aar
I would contend that it's been men (and yes, women too) who were vitally tuned in to their five senses that have pushed technology and science to the point where we can live in the manner that we do today in the Western World.
It wasn't Bible students or theologians who developed the Bessemer process for refining steel, or reduced the manpower for agriculture from 30% to 1 or 2 %, or discovered penicillin or the polio vaccine. It was people utilizing the scientific method, paying close attention to exactly what their evil "five senses" were telling them.
I think, had we depended solely on revelations from The Almighty and His Word over the centuries, we'd still be living in caves...
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cman
Thanks for that polar bear.
In addition-
The 5 senses are spiritual.
Look up 'saw, seen, hear, heard, felt, smell, taste, incense, sweet savor'.
And other words to this effect.
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Mike
Have you ever read Arthur Koestler's (of "The Thirteenth Tribe" fame) book "The Sleep Walkers"?
It documents great advancements in science that took place as the scientist dreamed at night after totally failing to get the answer by the normal methods. The most famous example is the chemist who dreamed of a ring of (I think 6) snakes devouring each others' tail in a circle. The next morning he solved his previously intractable problem and discovered benzine.
***
polarbear, your answer is excellent. You quoted Key #11 - Do not be deceived by the five senses.
So how do we know when the five senses are to be accepted and when are they to be rejected?
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George Aar
"A Shining Molecule
The hydrocarbon that we now call benzene was first isolated in 1825 by Michael Faraday from an oily film that deposited from the gas used for lighting. Faraday did some experiments, and discovered that the new compound had equal numbers of carbons and hydrogens, and so named it 'carbureted hydrogen'."
Michael Faraday discovered benzene,
Kekule', first posited on the structure of the benzene ring, some several decades after Faraday's discovery. A concept which he later revised after a good bit of thought and observation, IIRC ...
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doojable
Mike,
I never got the Way rag, after the free subscription ran out. Didn't get the tapes either. I couldn't afford them.
That is not how a MOG is to confront evil.
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Mike
Please allow my drawing attention to the understated.
I'd re-write your sentence to read "That is not IN MY OPINION how a MOG is to confront evil."
If God had a differing opinion for that particular set of situations, and then told vpw to do it in print, then that's God's business and He need not consult you about it.
Or course, that's a big "if" as I well know.
But then again, I have been looking at the printed materials for ten years now almost. I'm benefiting from them.
***
George Aar, yes it was the STRUCTURE of benzine to which I referred. It's circular. Someone had a dream about snakes in a circle and then saw that the carbon atoms in benzine were in the same positions. It's been a long time... like 40 years... since I was taught this stuff... high school and early college... long before PFAL... but what I had learned earlier then later fit well with what VPW taught about discovery and originality... oh my here's the back end of that pesky little plagiarism issue...
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pond
lost me on the "poised and ready" declaration.
ever see a cat in season? my daughter new cat loved the refrigerator door for an entire month to the point everyone lost weight.
poised and ready" for anything Im not .
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