Maybe our backgrounds are different, or maybe you are considering a lot of preachers from the TV type pulpits...
or maybe both...
But in my experience I havent heard that...
at least not from the ministers I have listended to live in the United Methodist Church...which is a pretty big group. While I dont recall hearing any of them openly ADVOCATING abortion, I have heard enough to know that they dont consider abortion to be the taking of a life. the ones I have listened to live anyway. I would bet that some others probably do...but the ones that don't would take care of the "only" word.
I don`t think that for me though, abortion right or wrong is the issue.
It is that these men who claimed to speak for him...whom claimed that they were owed implicit obediance as his leaders....... insisted that GOD required this service.
He's said a number of variations on that across the years.
We referenced one discussion where we talked about how vpw carefully selected a woman,
sculpted the situation to maximize his opportunity to sexually abuse her,
then set his trap-
which sprang with a drugged drink and she woke after the rape.
Oldies read that and suggested that SHE selected HIM instead of the other way around,
since her response didn't involve running straight to the police.
Thanks, Wordwolf, much appreciated!
Oldiesman, if your screen name were Cher, I'd still believe you were a man and have no clue what its like to be deeply violated to the core of who you are, and then on top of that, have it be by someone you respected and admired. Women in the secular world weren't running to the police either back in the '70's-'80's regarding date rape or any kind of rape. Then add pregnancy and a decision whether to abort or not!!? Women overall are often in tough spots just in everyday living, let alone extreme circumstances such as what some of these women went through. The U.S. is highly regarded as a patriarchal society and TWI was a textbook sub-culture of that environment.
That said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as is everyone on this site and in all of life, but the overall theme of your comments seem to me to be telling these women, Its your fault and Its Past, Get Over It! If I've misunderstood, please clarify.
We can't legislate the time it takes for someone to heal and forgive. We can't measure how deep the wounds are for them. This website is supposed to be a safe forum for them and others, including you, I guess, to "vent" (a little simplistic of a term, maybe) and get some comfort, direction, perspective.
I suppose yours could be considered one perspective but couldn't you come up with something more compassionate and helpful than "Its Your Fault!" I don't think this should be the only source for healing for a woman who got caught up in any of VPW's behavior or any other leaders. Hopefully, they're also seeking to overcome in other ways as well. But if they're out here on Greasespot trying to help other women or themselves, couldn't we show them a little more support. Your approach would appear to be a good example of why they never spoke up in the first place.
I'm new to all of this so I don't know as much about any of you as you all seem to.
Oldiesman, are you saying just because a woman did end up "sleeping" with leadership, that VPW or any leader who indulged in that kind of activity is without any blame? That is was all the woman's fault?
Welcome LKH,
No not at all, I'm not saying it was all the woman's fault. I'm saying that the women are partly responsible, depending on the facts of the situation.
No not at all, I'm not saying it was all the woman's fault. I'm saying that the women are partly responsible, depending on the facts of the situation.
No, the leadership is not without any blame.
I was thinking almost the same thing LKH was, but maybe I'm wrong? Just so I can understand - how were they (the women) partly responsible? Maybe if I had an example it would help me understand your point of view better.
But if someone calls it the taking of a life, or even murder, to further "demonize" the evil done by TWI, then backs off on the life issue when the subject gets to non TWI related abortions, that IMO kills the argument of a great wrong being done, because they are using a glaring double standard.
If those aborted are innocents who died at the hand of TWI, then there are millions of innocents as well who have died at the hands of others not connected with TWI.
Lifted Up, I get what you're saying! If the anti-Wierwille/twi posters would render the same judgment and condemnation they do to others and other groups, as they do with Wierwille and twi, they'd be way too busy all day long finding fault with half the world! They'd likely go crazy. But their contempt against twi is justified since they are exposing the evil there. One has only so much hours in the day. :) Thanks for your input.
I don`t think that for me though, abortion right or wrong is the issue.
It is that these men who claimed to speak for him...whom claimed that they were owed implicit obediance as his leaders....... insisted that GOD required this service.
It was just plain wrong.
No it wasn't.
God does require us to keep our vows. (Numbers 30:2)
I think you believed that too, which was why I believe you chose the abortion.
You made a commitment to the corps, and wanted to honor that commitment, and the corps leadership helped talk you into keeping that commitment.
... This website is supposed to be a safe forum for them and others, including you, I guess, to "vent" (a little simplistic of a term, maybe) and get some comfort, direction, perspective.
...
But if they're out here on Greasespot trying to help other women or themselves, couldn't we show them a little more support. Your approach would appear to be a good example of why they never spoke up in the first place.
LKH,
I don't know that this is supposed to be a "safe" forum to help women. My understanding is that posters may express opinions of all kinds, no holds barred, as long as done with due respect. Sometimes these opinions can be very controversial and extremely emotional. But I maintain that we all are better off getting everyone's opinion out there on the table rather than dealing with some form of censorship. This is why I think the GS forums are such a great place to be. :)
I don't know that this is supposed to be a "safe" forum to help women. My understanding is that posters may express opinions of all kinds, no holds barred, as long as done with due respect. Sometimes these opinions can be very controversial and extremely emotional. But I maintain that we all are better off getting everyone's opinion out there on the table rather than dealing with some form of censorship. This is why I think the GS forums are such a great place to be. :)
I'd agree with most of that on the face of it. My understanding is that you've been posting on Greasespot for a long time. Whether they're here for "help" or here to express an opinion, wouldn't you be perceptive enough to see in their posts, that they might still be hurt, and therefore, want to consider how you express your opinion?
There's a lot of words in the English language, wouldn't you be able to be get your thoughts out there in some form of honest expression without "clobbering" someone over the head with it? It is possible, don't you think?
It is completely assinine for you to assume what I THOUGHT...what governed MY actions.
Here AGAIN...are MY thoughts...
When presented, the way corpes training was proclaimed to be the best way to learn to be your best for God PERIOD.
When applying for the way corpes, one never was told that it was that one was entering a contract with God....a promise , an irrevocable vow that could not be changed..
That being said...it STILL has nothing to do with the fact that vpw/twi leaders insisted that God, GOD ALMIGHTY creator of the universe required us to abort our children...or face loss of our spiritual connection to him, face probable posession by satan and certain physical death.....
WHY on earth would I believe that stupidity??? WHY???? Because THAT is what vpw/twi leaders TAUGHT!!!
It was a destructive cruel lie, that holds life long impact.
You made a commitment to the corps, and wanted to honor that commitment, and the corps leadership helped talk you into keeping that commitment.
oldies......sounds like you need to be reminded that corps training was FOR -- A Lifetime of Christian Service.
Sure, I know that the ambiguity of it all got mixed together......but I seriously doubt that rascal *made a commitment to the corps* and was fixated on that. Why are you constantly attacking her?????
I know, I know........this stuff has threads discussing the vast viewpoints of the corps program, the intent of the corps program, the brochures of the corps program.
For me, it was NEVER about being a company-man....and tied at the hip to twi. I signed up for the corps training to learn HOW to be a better, spiritual man and run a home fellowship. Of course, from 1970 - 1978 or so the whole concept MORPHED into a "we-own-you-a$$" and the indentured servitude gained steam. For the most part, the whole corps experience vividly showed me THAT WIERWILLE WAS A CONTROL FREAK AND AN ABUSER.
Of course, you are the expert on all this corps stuff. Sure, you got kicked out [because of you own doing]...... but you seem to know it forwards and backwards.
I was thinking almost the same thing LKH was, but maybe I'm wrong? Just so I can understand - how were they (the women) partly responsible? Maybe if I had an example it would help me understand your point of view better.
Nero,
That's a good question, but first let me share a little short story.
I was sitting in my apartment a number of years ago, and all at once it started to rain hard. I looked up and noticed that one of the windows was leaking water and getting the books wet that were on the ledge next to the window. I immediately called the landlord, and complained about the leak. He came over, and when he walked in, he looked at me like I was an idiot and said "why don't you move those books out of the way"?
Now for an example, there's "Marsha". The following is a summary (if these facts are wrong, someone will chime in to correct):
"Marsha" was invited to Wierwille's motor coach. She was given a drink, and fell asleep. She wakes up on the bed, and Wierwille says "I could have screwed you, but I didn't". She leaves the coach, and is furious. Next day, SHE CHOOSES TO GO BACK TO WIERWILLE'S COACH!! At that point, Wierwille had sex with her.
And so according to these facts, I believe "Marsha" is partly responsible for getting abused. She went back to Wierwille AFTER she was drugged. How could anyone call this encounter "rape"?
There is an old Chinese proverb: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".
Marsha gets fooled, yet goes back later and has sex with Wierwille.
Nero, if you don't understand this point, I will give you another.
Precisely skyrider, I had a humble desire to be able to serve God to the very best of my ability. I just wanted to be my very best for him...I didn`t want to be a leader, I didn`t want any part of that God`s elite crack troops...I just had a humble desire to be the very best servant possible, where ever and however God wanted or needed me..
I didn`t have natural leadership ability, I assumed that God would have to develop some in me if he wanted me there...The classes required had never been offered in any state that I had lived in in all of my years of involvement, I assumed they would be made available some how...When I applied, the plan was to live at home and save every penny towards tuition, it would have worked, but immediately it was decided for me that I needed to live in a way home....I assumed that money would be no obsticle+-, if I was following my leaders orders....so low and behold at the end of my app year...there was very little tuition saved after a year of traveling to required meetings, running classes, expenses of a way home....
So THEN it was MY fault, MY lack of believing, MY lack period...the classes would have been available some where in the south eastern region, had my heart been right don`t ya know???
I was screamed at for my lack of way corpes heart....
Puzzled, hurt, ashamed, I mumbled to the lc...did he think that a year on the wow field could help me develop in those areas that I was so deficient....it was crushing
For heavens sake, all I wanted to do was to be a blessing to God. My heart, my motives, my desire to serve were pure and innocent.
It was on the wow field that I was exposed to the *all things are lawfull* crap for the first time...
Of course, you are the expert on all this corps stuff. Sure, you got kicked out [because of you own doing]...... but you seem to know it forwards and backwards.
I am no expert but do believe they were trying desperately to help her keep her vow to God.
(I'm not addressing the story, since I didn't study the details of her account.
I'm not confirming or refuting in any way the story here.)
Now for an example, there's "Marsha". The following is a summary (if these facts are wrong, someone will chime in to correct):
"Marsha" was invited to Wierwille's motor coach. She was given a drink, and fell asleep. She wakes up on the bed, and Wierwille says "I could have screwed you, but I didn't". She leaves the coach, and is furious. Next day, SHE CHOOSES TO GO BACK TO WIERWILLE'S COACH!! At that point, Wierwille had sex with her.
Has anyone claimed that the women had ZERO RESPONSIBILITY?
No-so Marsha's level of responsibility is not in question.
Except for the part where she was drugged unconscious, she had SOME responsibility.
The question more relevant is: did vpw have ANY responsibility for drugging women,
raping women, and using his position as their minister and spiritual leader to
cheat on his wife and have sex with women in his congregation?
Did vpw have ANY responsibility for singling out the women who had histories of
victimization-since victims of ONE person are easier victims of ANOTHER-
and giving them his rap about how sex doesn't matter
(how many ministers tell their congregation that adultery doesn't matter?),
then arranging handy places to have sex,
then contriving to bring them there on some pretext or another,
then tell them that he believed God wanted him to show her how sex can be good
and to "heal her sexually?"
Oldies HAS posted that he thinks it's possible that vpw honestly believed he was
assigned by God Almighty to heal her sexually-
or at least he's raised the possibility himself and refused to state outright whether he
believed that was the case.
Does vpw bear ANY responsibility in all this? If so, how much?
========
In other news,
can someone familiar with Marsha's story issue the corrections?
You have no understanding of what it is like to have been mistreated and neglected during most of your life...to grow up feeling the shame of not being good enough.
Then someone comes along and offers one ALL of the answeres to life and Godliness....
You want to hope again, hope that you can be a good person, a benefit to God, to humanity.
You dare to believe that since these people are teaching the bible, that it is real, it is good, it is a direction in life where you can make a difference in todays world.
These people gain your trust, they pretend to be decent and wholesom, to have your best interests at heart....maybe you don`t understand some of the more incomprehensible teachings or requirements, but you are taught to put those things on the back burner....that if you ar patient, God will show you.
You dare to trust again, you dare to hope that you can have some worth, some value....THAT is why women went back against their better judgement .....THAT is why we shut down our emotions, ignored our pain, and brokenly followed the orders to abort..
We were too afraid of the alternative...a life without God. For many of us it was our last best hope for survival. If we didn`t have God...we had NOTHING.
These cruel monsters masquerading as kindly ministers, fatherly images to those of us so hungry for meaning in our lives.....they cared absolutely NOTHING for our well being....they took that which they desired, utilizing the power of scriptures, and their status as spokesman for God to sate the lusts of their sick bellies.
The people...and I am nor just talking about the raped women, the forced abortions, the broken families, the untimely deaths....All of us out there...the people who DARED to have hope this one last time...were crumpled up and thrown out as so much garbage when their usefullness was exhausted.
These were sick cruel men....some came to vp depraved and cruel. and found an environment that they thrived in...., others he developed into the monsters they became.
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Lifted Up
Maybe our backgrounds are different, or maybe you are considering a lot of preachers from the TV type pulpits...
or maybe both...
But in my experience I havent heard that...
at least not from the ministers I have listended to live in the United Methodist Church...which is a pretty big group. While I dont recall hearing any of them openly ADVOCATING abortion, I have heard enough to know that they dont consider abortion to be the taking of a life. the ones I have listened to live anyway. I would bet that some others probably do...but the ones that don't would take care of the "only" word.
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Ham
The only reason I brought it up in this discussion..
is that it really reflects upon herr doctor.. was he REALLY some kinda saint, some kinda nice guy..
no matter how you view abortion.. whether it is despicible, or whether it is the cat's meow..
he excused it, WITH SCRIPTURE.. contrary to the beliefs of some ninety some percent of the Christin world.
he actually paid the bill..
it violates so many aspects of what may be reasonalbly expected from a "Christian" minister..
at the very very least, he promoted a doctrine, and practice that embraced an appearance of evil..
at the very least.
Is it possible he was the mogster, mog to the world?
I really don't think so..
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rascal
I don`t think that for me though, abortion right or wrong is the issue.
It is that these men who claimed to speak for him...whom claimed that they were owed implicit obediance as his leaders....... insisted that GOD required this service.
It was just plain wrong.
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LKH
Thanks, Wordwolf, much appreciated!
Oldiesman, if your screen name were Cher, I'd still believe you were a man and have no clue what its like to be deeply violated to the core of who you are, and then on top of that, have it be by someone you respected and admired. Women in the secular world weren't running to the police either back in the '70's-'80's regarding date rape or any kind of rape. Then add pregnancy and a decision whether to abort or not!!? Women overall are often in tough spots just in everyday living, let alone extreme circumstances such as what some of these women went through. The U.S. is highly regarded as a patriarchal society and TWI was a textbook sub-culture of that environment.
That said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as is everyone on this site and in all of life, but the overall theme of your comments seem to me to be telling these women, Its your fault and Its Past, Get Over It! If I've misunderstood, please clarify.
We can't legislate the time it takes for someone to heal and forgive. We can't measure how deep the wounds are for them. This website is supposed to be a safe forum for them and others, including you, I guess, to "vent" (a little simplistic of a term, maybe) and get some comfort, direction, perspective.
I suppose yours could be considered one perspective but couldn't you come up with something more compassionate and helpful than "Its Your Fault!" I don't think this should be the only source for healing for a woman who got caught up in any of VPW's behavior or any other leaders. Hopefully, they're also seeking to overcome in other ways as well. But if they're out here on Greasespot trying to help other women or themselves, couldn't we show them a little more support. Your approach would appear to be a good example of why they never spoke up in the first place.
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WordWolf
Funny, LKH,
without any prompting from the rest of us,
a lot of people arrive and come to those conclusions.
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oldiesman
Welcome LKH,
No not at all, I'm not saying it was all the woman's fault. I'm saying that the women are partly responsible, depending on the facts of the situation.
No, the leadership is not without any blame.
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Nero
I was thinking almost the same thing LKH was, but maybe I'm wrong? Just so I can understand - how were they (the women) partly responsible? Maybe if I had an example it would help me understand your point of view better.
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oldiesman
Lifted Up, I get what you're saying! If the anti-Wierwille/twi posters would render the same judgment and condemnation they do to others and other groups, as they do with Wierwille and twi, they'd be way too busy all day long finding fault with half the world! They'd likely go crazy. But their contempt against twi is justified since they are exposing the evil there. One has only so much hours in the day. :) Thanks for your input.
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Tom Strange
To use a phrase from my way daze: That is just a lie from the pit of hell for so many reasons.
YOU should be ASHAMED of yourself OM.
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oldiesman
No it wasn't.
God does require us to keep our vows. (Numbers 30:2)
I think you believed that too, which was why I believe you chose the abortion.
You made a commitment to the corps, and wanted to honor that commitment, and the corps leadership helped talk you into keeping that commitment.
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oldiesman
LKH,
I don't know that this is supposed to be a "safe" forum to help women. My understanding is that posters may express opinions of all kinds, no holds barred, as long as done with due respect. Sometimes these opinions can be very controversial and extremely emotional. But I maintain that we all are better off getting everyone's opinion out there on the table rather than dealing with some form of censorship. This is why I think the GS forums are such a great place to be. :)
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LKH
I'd agree with most of that on the face of it. My understanding is that you've been posting on Greasespot for a long time. Whether they're here for "help" or here to express an opinion, wouldn't you be perceptive enough to see in their posts, that they might still be hurt, and therefore, want to consider how you express your opinion?
There's a lot of words in the English language, wouldn't you be able to be get your thoughts out there in some form of honest expression without "clobbering" someone over the head with it? It is possible, don't you think?
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rascal
You DON`T think oldies, that is the problem.
It is completely assinine for you to assume what I THOUGHT...what governed MY actions.
Here AGAIN...are MY thoughts...
When presented, the way corpes training was proclaimed to be the best way to learn to be your best for God PERIOD.
When applying for the way corpes, one never was told that it was that one was entering a contract with God....a promise , an irrevocable vow that could not be changed..
That being said...it STILL has nothing to do with the fact that vpw/twi leaders insisted that God, GOD ALMIGHTY creator of the universe required us to abort our children...or face loss of our spiritual connection to him, face probable posession by satan and certain physical death.....
WHY on earth would I believe that stupidity??? WHY???? Because THAT is what vpw/twi leaders TAUGHT!!!
It was a destructive cruel lie, that holds life long impact.
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skyrider
oldies......sounds like you need to be reminded that corps training was FOR -- A Lifetime of Christian Service.
Sure, I know that the ambiguity of it all got mixed together......but I seriously doubt that rascal *made a commitment to the corps* and was fixated on that. Why are you constantly attacking her?????
I know, I know........this stuff has threads discussing the vast viewpoints of the corps program, the intent of the corps program, the brochures of the corps program.
For me, it was NEVER about being a company-man....and tied at the hip to twi. I signed up for the corps training to learn HOW to be a better, spiritual man and run a home fellowship. Of course, from 1970 - 1978 or so the whole concept MORPHED into a "we-own-you-a$$" and the indentured servitude gained steam. For the most part, the whole corps experience vividly showed me THAT WIERWILLE WAS A CONTROL FREAK AND AN ABUSER.
Of course, you are the expert on all this corps stuff. Sure, you got kicked out [because of you own doing]...... but you seem to know it forwards and backwards.
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oldiesman
Nero,
That's a good question, but first let me share a little short story.
I was sitting in my apartment a number of years ago, and all at once it started to rain hard. I looked up and noticed that one of the windows was leaking water and getting the books wet that were on the ledge next to the window. I immediately called the landlord, and complained about the leak. He came over, and when he walked in, he looked at me like I was an idiot and said "why don't you move those books out of the way"?
Now for an example, there's "Marsha". The following is a summary (if these facts are wrong, someone will chime in to correct):
"Marsha" was invited to Wierwille's motor coach. She was given a drink, and fell asleep. She wakes up on the bed, and Wierwille says "I could have screwed you, but I didn't". She leaves the coach, and is furious. Next day, SHE CHOOSES TO GO BACK TO WIERWILLE'S COACH!! At that point, Wierwille had sex with her.
And so according to these facts, I believe "Marsha" is partly responsible for getting abused. She went back to Wierwille AFTER she was drugged. How could anyone call this encounter "rape"?
There is an old Chinese proverb: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".
Marsha gets fooled, yet goes back later and has sex with Wierwille.
Nero, if you don't understand this point, I will give you another.
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cman
Ah yes the commitment.
Never made one did ya om.
You were not there, you do not know.
The woman is not partly responsible for being coerced into abortion.
The RESPONSIBILITY is those who did the coercion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The commitment was coercion also!
And you have no idea of what it is to be pregnant and have an abortion.
You do not know anything.
So why don't you say some thing you know.
Instead of condemning people you know nothing about.
And you proclaim that 'anti wierwielle twi' in the twi/wierwielle defense?
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rascal
Precisely skyrider, I had a humble desire to be able to serve God to the very best of my ability. I just wanted to be my very best for him...I didn`t want to be a leader, I didn`t want any part of that God`s elite crack troops...I just had a humble desire to be the very best servant possible, where ever and however God wanted or needed me..
I didn`t have natural leadership ability, I assumed that God would have to develop some in me if he wanted me there...The classes required had never been offered in any state that I had lived in in all of my years of involvement, I assumed they would be made available some how...When I applied, the plan was to live at home and save every penny towards tuition, it would have worked, but immediately it was decided for me that I needed to live in a way home....I assumed that money would be no obsticle+-, if I was following my leaders orders....so low and behold at the end of my app year...there was very little tuition saved after a year of traveling to required meetings, running classes, expenses of a way home....
So THEN it was MY fault, MY lack of believing, MY lack period...the classes would have been available some where in the south eastern region, had my heart been right don`t ya know???
I was screamed at for my lack of way corpes heart....
Puzzled, hurt, ashamed, I mumbled to the lc...did he think that a year on the wow field could help me develop in those areas that I was so deficient....it was crushing
For heavens sake, all I wanted to do was to be a blessing to God. My heart, my motives, my desire to serve were pure and innocent.
It was on the wow field that I was exposed to the *all things are lawfull* crap for the first time...
I gave up and
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oldiesman
I am no expert but do believe they were trying desperately to help her keep her vow to God.
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cman
In addition-
The woman is not partly responsible for being raped via coercion or the other means they employed.
The 'vow' had nothing to do with God.
Unless the way and wierwielle is the god.
doubled
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oldiesman
Then it must be established. :)
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WordWolf
Watch this one.
It was an attempt at a misdirection.
Check this out.
(I'm not addressing the story, since I didn't study the details of her account.
I'm not confirming or refuting in any way the story here.)
Has anyone claimed that the women had ZERO RESPONSIBILITY?
No-so Marsha's level of responsibility is not in question.
Except for the part where she was drugged unconscious, she had SOME responsibility.
The question more relevant is: did vpw have ANY responsibility for drugging women,
raping women, and using his position as their minister and spiritual leader to
cheat on his wife and have sex with women in his congregation?
Did vpw have ANY responsibility for singling out the women who had histories of
victimization-since victims of ONE person are easier victims of ANOTHER-
and giving them his rap about how sex doesn't matter
(how many ministers tell their congregation that adultery doesn't matter?),
then arranging handy places to have sex,
then contriving to bring them there on some pretext or another,
then tell them that he believed God wanted him to show her how sex can be good
and to "heal her sexually?"
Oldies HAS posted that he thinks it's possible that vpw honestly believed he was
assigned by God Almighty to heal her sexually-
or at least he's raised the possibility himself and refused to state outright whether he
believed that was the case.
Does vpw bear ANY responsibility in all this? If so, how much?
========
In other news,
can someone familiar with Marsha's story issue the corrections?
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Tom Strange
Sure OM... and God certainly cherishes a commitment to an organization FAR MORE than a human life... no doubt at all...
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rascal
You have no understanding of what it is like to have been mistreated and neglected during most of your life...to grow up feeling the shame of not being good enough.
Then someone comes along and offers one ALL of the answeres to life and Godliness....
You want to hope again, hope that you can be a good person, a benefit to God, to humanity.
You dare to believe that since these people are teaching the bible, that it is real, it is good, it is a direction in life where you can make a difference in todays world.
These people gain your trust, they pretend to be decent and wholesom, to have your best interests at heart....maybe you don`t understand some of the more incomprehensible teachings or requirements, but you are taught to put those things on the back burner....that if you ar patient, God will show you.
You dare to trust again, you dare to hope that you can have some worth, some value....THAT is why women went back against their better judgement .....THAT is why we shut down our emotions, ignored our pain, and brokenly followed the orders to abort..
We were too afraid of the alternative...a life without God. For many of us it was our last best hope for survival. If we didn`t have God...we had NOTHING.
These cruel monsters masquerading as kindly ministers, fatherly images to those of us so hungry for meaning in our lives.....they cared absolutely NOTHING for our well being....they took that which they desired, utilizing the power of scriptures, and their status as spokesman for God to sate the lusts of their sick bellies.
The people...and I am nor just talking about the raped women, the forced abortions, the broken families, the untimely deaths....All of us out there...the people who DARED to have hope this one last time...were crumpled up and thrown out as so much garbage when their usefullness was exhausted.
These were sick cruel men....some came to vp depraved and cruel. and found an environment that they thrived in...., others he developed into the monsters they became.
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WordWolf
If your "God" thinks that it's preferable to abort a child (or child-to-be or whatever)
than to leave a program meant to teach the Bible,
then I want nothing to do with your God.
My God is a bit smarter than that, and has a LOT more compassion.
He's more of a "I will have mercy and not sacrifice" kind-of God,
as in
lives are more important than ceremony and promises to God,
if one is in a situation where it is now an "either-or" and one can't have BOTH.
Your "God" would say "Yes, you made a promise to me, so abort that child so you can keep it."
Your "God" sounds like a real d* to me.
Actually, whenever we have a discussion, you say everything BUT
"he was at fault when he...."
Feel free to disprove me. I mentioned a bunch of things vpw did a few posts ago.
Feel free to pick one, some, or all of them, and actually admit that vpw did them,
it was wrong for him to do them, and vpw was to be blamed for doing them.
Go ahead.
Or you can do something Oldiesman-typical,
that is,
water the subject down, and "blame" him for something stupid like
"vpw was wrong when he went 20 minutes over in a teaching"
and skip all the felonies and evil actions.
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