LCM started this kick sometime while I was in residence (and vp was still alive.)
He said that anytime you said you would do something it was a 'vow.' He especially hated it when a couple announced their engagement and then broke it off.
"When thou vowest a vow..."
So, if you said you'd stop at the store on your way home, you broke a vow because you didn't keep your word.
"Say what you mean and mean what you say..."
Sooo... when you said you were going in residence - that was to be taken as a vow. No of raising your right hand was necessary.
It was manipulation. It most likely was used to guilt many into doing something they didn't want to do.
Oldies Replied:
I still believe its the right way to go, and biblical, even though it may be used against someone if they fail to live up to that standard. Golly, it isn't manipulation to expect someone to keep their word.
Then Tom Said:
and that OM, brings me right back to "so you're saying that God cherishes and respects an oath, vow, etc above a human life"... that's exactly what you're saying here...
It means that if you say you are going to the store after work and have a flat and then decide to go home instead and make the store trip another time, that you are a liar and have broken a vow to God. You are worthy of beratement, ridicule and public shame.
Only in TWI could an intention or desire, be construed as a sacred vow, to be kept at all costs.
yeah... just like you "blame" the revisionists... zeig heil mein furher...
It's very simple, the blame does ultimately lie with veepee... period.
That's just a lousy excuse for someone not to have to deal with their sin and their own demons. They can simply put the blame on someone else and demonize them instead, because as the revisionists have stated, "There are no demons in the real world".
Those with a 'victim mentality' mindset keep doing the same thing over and over again - they continue to shift the blame on someone else, yet all the while they expect a different outcome? Someone said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." I assume that you do not consider yourself a fool. But you could be sabotaging yourself by succumbing to victim mentality.
and that OM, brings me right back to "so you're saying that God cherishes and respects an oath, vow, etc above a human life"... that's exactly what you're saying here...
This is one of those nebulous grey areas that is wide open to debate.
Is this a human life or "potential" human life.
Is this life or potential life a blessing from God, if it was possibly conceived in sin? (adultery, fornication)
Does this life or potential life have a soul?
*******************
We know TWI's perspective that the fetus is potential life that doesn't have a soul. From that perspective, it wasn't yet a human life taken.
We were in TWI for years and that was the situation. We assented to it and agreed with it then, that was what we agreed to and believed.
This is one reason why I believe the leaders who encouraged women to keep their commitment to the Corps program, were not doing evil by that. They should not be condemned.
Well, let's overlook the fact and not bother to mention or bring up WW parroting Nizkor without reference to Nizkor ... oh no. I am sure others didn't recognize him doing it but I did. Not many recognized him doing it simply because not many people are familiar with Nizkor's arguments. Of course, he mistakenly though I had not heard the same "Nizkor argument" he was bringing up on the Holocaust denial thread, but wanted it to appear he originatated the argument?
I will thoroughly admit however, that a lot of the revisionist arguments and the reasoning behind those arguments hold a lot of universal application and truth behind them. The "reality" comment I found was appropriate and since it had an universal application I brought it up in this instance. Unfortunately I can't say the same thing for many of Nizkor arguments that they present, nor does one readily find a universal application to a lot of their reasoning... That's why I'm afraid you won't find me parroting Nizkor or "plagarizing them", much like WW has.
I've never READ NIZKOR.
Hard to plagiarize something YOU'VE NEVER READ.
Hard to repeat something YOU'VE NEVER READ.
Thank you for playing, have a nice day!
Proof, please, of WW plagiarizing like you do. <_<
Don't make accusations like that without backing them up.
You can't.
Hey, this is WTH we're talking about.
If you take away other people's words and thoughts,
and take away his ability to make up accusations out of whole cloth,
Well, let's overlook the fact and not bother to mention or bring up WW parroting Nizkor without reference to Nizkor ... oh no. I am sure others didn't recognize him doing it but I did. Not many recognized him doing it simply because not many people are familiar with Nizkor's arguments. Of course, he mistakenly though I had not heard the same "Nizkor argument" he was bringing up on the Holocaust denial thread, but wanted it to appear he originatated the argument?
I will thoroughly admit however, that a lot of the revisionist arguments and the reasoning behind those arguments hold a lot of universal application and truth behind them. The "reality" comment I found was appropriate and since it had an universal application I brought it up in this instance. Unfortunately I can't say the same thing for many of Nizkor arguments that they present, nor does one readily find a universal application to a lot of their reasoning... That's why I'm afraid you won't find me parroting Nizkor or "plagarizing them", much like WW has.
Where did WW post word for word anything from Nizkor? Use the accepted standards for determining what is plaigerism and what is not -- and make your case.
On the other hand WTH you have repeatedly cut and pasted articles written by others - word for word - onto this board for years, pawning them off as if they were yours.
That's just a lousy excuse for someone not to have to deal with their sin and their own demons.
Let's not make excuses for someone, the sins the committed, and the temptations they
accepted, marched into, and planned for.
vpw did all of those, many times- he drugged women, he selected for the most emotionally-damaged
women, he treated them-not as sisters in Christ, nor as women whom he had responsibility over,
but as women he could have sex with. He cheated on his wife.
And so on.
Let's not make excuses for him.
Lots of guys have had the CHANCE to molest women or rape them.
Lots of guys DIDN'T sin.
vpw made the choice to approach sin, and perform it.
It was a sin for him to WANT to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin for him to PLAN to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to SET UP A PLACE to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to ARRANGE A TIME AND PLACE to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to contrive to have Maggie Muggins arrive at that place.
It was a sin to TRY to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to HAVE sex with Maggie Muggins.
That's not even addressing the druggings and coercion issues.
Those with a 'victim mentality' mindset keep doing the same thing over and over again - they continue to shift the blame on someone else, yet all the while they expect a different outcome? Someone said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." I assume that you do not consider yourself a fool. But you could be sabotaging yourself by succumbing to victim mentality.
vpw did the same thing over and over- he committed adultery, rape, and so on.
He carefully planned, and carefully executed his plans.
Shifting the blame for those careful plans continually is not right, morally, Biblically, legally, or any other way.
Continuing to shift the blame for his sins off of vpw over and over is not healthy.
Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Cleaving to that which is evil, excusing a sinner and his chosen sins, abhorring the truth, is not healthy.
Isaiah 5:20 (King James Version)
20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Well, let's overlook the fact and not bother to mention or bring up WW parroting Nizkor without reference to Nizkor ... oh no. I am sure others didn't recognize him doing it but I did. Not many recognized him doing it simply because not many people are familiar with Nizkor's arguments. Of course, he mistakenly though I had not heard the same "Nizkor argument" he was bringing up on the Holocaust denial thread, but wanted it to appear he originatated the argument?
I will thoroughly admit however, that a lot of the revisionist arguments and the reasoning behind those arguments hold a lot of universal application and truth behind them. The "reality" comment I found was appropriate and since it had an universal application I brought it up in this instance. Unfortunately I can't say the same thing for many of Nizkor arguments that they present, nor does one readily find a universal application to a lot of their reasoning... That's why I'm afraid you won't find me parroting Nizkor or "plagarizing them", much like WW has.
Where did WW post word for word anything from Nizkor? Use the accepted standards for determining what is plaigerism and what is not -- and make your case. If you can show where he plaigerized Nizkor, I promise that I will "hammer" him. Ok?
On the other hand WTH, for years you have repeatedly cut and pasted articles written by others - word for word - onto this board, pawning them off as if they were yours.
WhiteDove, on that questionaire download number 1:
The last question regarding abortion, there's a choice (or more) that is cut off. I'd be real interested in what all of the choices were regarding attitude towards abortion. As it reads, every one of the options are all in the realm of "it's acceptable"... none of them, unless it's the one I can't read, say "not acceptable" or "not allowed"... the one's that are visible sure 'lead' the answerer towards "it's acceptable"... and of course, this is what I was taught throughout my time in TWI from the point of "there is no life until there is 'breath life'" forward...
WTH - there are two distinct groups of women we are discussing here. Some (NOT ALL) of the women were willing participants in vp's sexual misconduct. That is not being discussed here.
Was it wrong? Yes.
Could vp still have turned them away? (Assuming that he had been a different type man.) Yes.
Did he turn them down? No.
Why did they do what they did? Who knows.
We can speculate but the fact will still remain that every time he and one of these women were in a room together there were two people there who both had the ability to say,"No." He didn't. He was the MOG. He was the elder. He was also the one teaching that it was okay. So who were they to argue? I do hold him to a higher standard, because it was his teaching. If one of them had walked right up to him naked and said, "Take me! Take me right here and now!" he should walked away.
Hey! We were talking about vows... what about his vow of marriage to Mrs. W.? That was his vow.
BUT- as to the women who were drugged, and raped: they are absolutely NOT women that you can say 'were asking for it.'
Or are you going to suggest that a rape victim has sinned?
(((waysider))) I know. I feel like I inadvertantly lured people in. It was my honesty, my zeal, my integrity that sold people on the idea that twi was a spiritually wholesome group.
I thought this was handled in the last session but apparently that is incorrect as the instructors manual clearly states it is to be handled in the first session.
Well we both stand corrected I thought it was toward the end of the class as well. welcome to the world of old
But I was really posting to Goey's question of where they ended up at ,although it is still not clear but it looks like they were sent to the extension and outreach dept. Although like him I bet they crossed VP desk at some point. I seem to remember him saying at some point he tracked them or the data from them.
(((waysider))) I know. I feel like I inadvertantly lured people in. It was my honesty, my zeal, my integrity that sold people on the idea that twi was a spiritually wholesome group.
We were the cammoflage that the evil hid behind.
Rascal
We believed it was true.
The people who told us, believed it was true.
The people who told them, believed it was true.
The people who told the people who told the people, believed it was true.
But if you follow the trail far enough back, I think you will find someone who knew it was a scam.
Their enticement tactics were deliberate not inadvertent.
I was the first member of my family to become involved.
I got other members of my family involved
That involvement changed their lives, as well as mine, in profoundly permanent ways that are not unique to my family alone.
These people who say, "You could have just walked away." have no idea what they are even talking about.
If they really believe it was/is that easy, perhaps THEY should just walk away from GSC to prove it since they seem to contend that GSC is wrong.
Don't expect sound reason to sway Oldies in any way. It won't.
BTW, I don't post with any delusions that I can change Oldies thinking.
IMO, he is incorrigible in regards his thinking and the lengths he will go to in order
to defend VPW. If he came around, his whole belief system would fall
apart and he would have nothing to hold on to.
Oh I don't expect him to change... That's between him and God.
There are always folks that get hurt in this kind of debate. I guess I'm getting a sense of something I just can't quite find the right words to describe. I'll try:
The women who were raped were victims of rape.
The women who were willing participants were also victims of a different kind. Even women who were recruiters to find yet more women, were victims.... I know this isn't the popular opinion, but to be so obsessed with power that you'll do ANYTHING to attain it...
Evil? Perhaps. But at one time these women started out with stars in their eyes and the hopes of finding a closer walk with God. They got led astray as well. It may not be the popular thing to do, but I feel compassion for them as well.
Poop flows downhill and everyone in the path gets covered in it.
Liar. You were parrotting Nizkor, but I realize you are to blind to realize it. You were parrotting Nizkor in your own (and vain) attempt to defame Fred Leuchter and discredit him and his degree as an engineer. Then you went on to brag how you were even a (cough) "better scientist" than he was when you graduated from high school.
The only problem is, if Leuchter were truly as dishonest as you (and Nizkor) have attempted to make him, he would have simply pocketed his fees, lied and told the court whatever the prosecution and the media wanted to hear for themselves. Of course you don't recognize the trait you've picked up - which is, tell the people whatever it is they want to hear.
Typical WW. He simply tells GSC people whatever it is they want to hear because he is not capable of speaking the truth. If he ever did tell the truth it would only ruin his popularity among many GSC people.
Man says I was lying about having NEVER READ NIZKOR.
Surely he can do better than that.
I mean, most people can see the logical possibility that I might
agree with someone's points in spite of never having heard them,
by virtue of having looked at the same evidence, and coming to the
same conclusions.
Not WTH.
With him, it's got to be some sort of coverup, some conspiracy.
Just like the one invented about the Holocaust.
Still has nothing to support his claim I'm lying.
Sad, sad, sad.
You were parrotting Nizkor, but I realize you are to blind to realize it.
Impossible to parrot something you've never HEARD.
Most people can understand that...
You were parrotting Nizkor in your own (and vain) attempt to defame Fred Leuchter and discredit him and his degree as an engineer.
He was already discredited, and my agreeing hardly was necessary.
And this is all in the wrong thread.
Then you went on to brag how you were even a (cough) "better scientist" than he was when you graduated from high school.
I was an average scientist in my high school.
Even the AVERAGE student would have skipped those mistakes in lab class.
They didn't have much choice if they wanted to pass.
The only problem is, if Leuchter were truly as dishonest as you (and Nizkor) have attempted to make him, he would have simply pocketed his fees, lied and told the court whatever the prosecution and the media wanted to hear for themselves. Of course you don't recognize the trait you've picked up - which is, tell the people whatever it is they want to hear.
Unless his motive was other than just money.
Some people have motives other than just money.
Some people can figure that out.
Typical WW. He simply tells GSC people whatever it is they want to hear because he is not capable of speaking the truth.
Typical WTH. Just invents a lie and expects people to believe it.
If he ever did tell the truth it would only ruin his popularity among many GSC people.
If he ever used his mind, he'd probably drop dead from the shock.
And all this, besides being inflammatory and useless,
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Goey
Oldies Replied:
Then Tom Said:
It means that if you say you are going to the store after work and have a flat and then decide to go home instead and make the store trip another time, that you are a liar and have broken a vow to God. You are worthy of beratement, ridicule and public shame.
Only in TWI could an intention or desire, be construed as a sacred vow, to be kept at all costs.
Totally Anal.
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What The Hey
That's just a lousy excuse for someone not to have to deal with their sin and their own demons. They can simply put the blame on someone else and demonize them instead, because as the revisionists have stated, "There are no demons in the real world".
Those with a 'victim mentality' mindset keep doing the same thing over and over again - they continue to shift the blame on someone else, yet all the while they expect a different outcome? Someone said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." I assume that you do not consider yourself a fool. But you could be sabotaging yourself by succumbing to victim mentality.
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oldiesman
This is one of those nebulous grey areas that is wide open to debate.
Is this a human life or "potential" human life.
Is this life or potential life a blessing from God, if it was possibly conceived in sin? (adultery, fornication)
Does this life or potential life have a soul?
*******************
We know TWI's perspective that the fetus is potential life that doesn't have a soul. From that perspective, it wasn't yet a human life taken.
We were in TWI for years and that was the situation. We assented to it and agreed with it then, that was what we agreed to and believed.
This is one reason why I believe the leaders who encouraged women to keep their commitment to the Corps program, were not doing evil by that. They should not be condemned.
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WordWolf
I've never READ NIZKOR.
Hard to plagiarize something YOU'VE NEVER READ.
Hard to repeat something YOU'VE NEVER READ.
Thank you for playing, have a nice day!
Hey, this is WTH we're talking about.
If you take away other people's words and thoughts,
and take away his ability to make up accusations out of whole cloth,
what does he have left except large-print?
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Goey
Where did WW post word for word anything from Nizkor? Use the accepted standards for determining what is plaigerism and what is not -- and make your case.
On the other hand WTH you have repeatedly cut and pasted articles written by others - word for word - onto this board for years, pawning them off as if they were yours.
Like father - like son.
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WordWolf
Let's not make excuses for someone, the sins the committed, and the temptations they
accepted, marched into, and planned for.
vpw did all of those, many times- he drugged women, he selected for the most emotionally-damaged
women, he treated them-not as sisters in Christ, nor as women whom he had responsibility over,
but as women he could have sex with. He cheated on his wife.
And so on.
Let's not make excuses for him.
Lots of guys have had the CHANCE to molest women or rape them.
Lots of guys DIDN'T sin.
vpw made the choice to approach sin, and perform it.
It was a sin for him to WANT to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin for him to PLAN to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to SET UP A PLACE to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to ARRANGE A TIME AND PLACE to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to contrive to have Maggie Muggins arrive at that place.
It was a sin to TRY to have sex with Maggie Muggins.
It was a sin to HAVE sex with Maggie Muggins.
That's not even addressing the druggings and coercion issues.
vpw did the same thing over and over- he committed adultery, rape, and so on.
He carefully planned, and carefully executed his plans.
Shifting the blame for those careful plans continually is not right, morally, Biblically, legally, or any other way.
Continuing to shift the blame for his sins off of vpw over and over is not healthy.
Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Cleaving to that which is evil, excusing a sinner and his chosen sins, abhorring the truth, is not healthy.
Isaiah 5:20 (King James Version)
20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe to them that take evil and call it "good"!
God doesn't like it.
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Goey
Where did WW post word for word anything from Nizkor? Use the accepted standards for determining what is plaigerism and what is not -- and make your case. If you can show where he plaigerized Nizkor, I promise that I will "hammer" him. Ok?
On the other hand WTH, for years you have repeatedly cut and pasted articles written by others - word for word - onto this board, pawning them off as if they were yours.
Consider yourself "hammered". You deserve it.
Like father - like son.
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WordWolf
*reads*
WTH doesn't understand the concept "proof."
I quoted his post.
There's an accusation, and an attempt to justify it, but not a shred of "proof."
Sorry, I can't educate WTH as to what "proof" means.
Sad to say, since he needs to learn.
However, he does not WILL to learn, so he will retain his current error.
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oldiesman
Sounds almost like a George Carlin plagiarism. :)
Happy Weekend, one and all!
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WhiteDove
Sorry , I rescanned the page
pg1.pdf
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WhiteDove
Also in regard to the directions for the sheets enclosed is the directions from the instructors guide (see #5 and 9.)
CFS_Instructors_Guide.pdf
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doojable
WTH - there are two distinct groups of women we are discussing here. Some (NOT ALL) of the women were willing participants in vp's sexual misconduct. That is not being discussed here.
Was it wrong? Yes.
Could vp still have turned them away? (Assuming that he had been a different type man.) Yes.
Did he turn them down? No.
Why did they do what they did? Who knows.
We can speculate but the fact will still remain that every time he and one of these women were in a room together there were two people there who both had the ability to say,"No." He didn't. He was the MOG. He was the elder. He was also the one teaching that it was okay. So who were they to argue? I do hold him to a higher standard, because it was his teaching. If one of them had walked right up to him naked and said, "Take me! Take me right here and now!" he should walked away.
Hey! We were talking about vows... what about his vow of marriage to Mrs. W.? That was his vow.
BUT- as to the women who were drugged, and raped: they are absolutely NOT women that you can say 'were asking for it.'
Or are you going to suggest that a rape victim has sinned?
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waysider
Sadly, I think that is what some of the posters here HAVE been saying.
It's a bit like saying, "Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer ate people, but it is partially their own fault for looking so darned appetizing."
What he did was criminal and intentional.
It makes me sick to think that somehow, something I might have done, might have unwittingly contributed to this lunacy.
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Goey
Doojable,
Oldies didn't personally see or hear VPW make his marriage vows,
so in his world it can't proved that VPW actually made these vows.
Don't expect sound reason to sway Oldies in any way. It won't.
BTW, I don't post with any delusions that I can change Oldies thinking.
IMO, he is incorrigible in regards his thinking and the lengths he will go to in order
to defend VPW. If he came around, his whole belief system would fall
apart and he would have nothing to hold on to.
Actually, it may not be that he is defending VPW as much as he is
defending himself and his belief system, since it relies heavily if not soley
upon upon VPW being the MOGOFT and PFAL being the handbook of life.
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waysider
Sorry---Double post
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WordWolf
Oldiesman, apparently, is capable of understanding me when it suits him.
As opposed to the misinterpretation whenever it does NOT suit him.
So, we see it is DELIBERATE, and not accidental.
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rascal
(((waysider))) I know. I feel like I inadvertantly lured people in. It was my honesty, my zeal, my integrity that sold people on the idea that twi was a spiritually wholesome group.
We were the cammoflage that the evil hid behind.
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waysider
I stand corrected.
I thought this was handled in the last session but apparently that is incorrect as the instructors manual clearly states it is to be handled in the first session.
Thanks, WD.
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WhiteDove
Well we both stand corrected I thought it was toward the end of the class as well. welcome to the world of old
But I was really posting to Goey's question of where they ended up at ,although it is still not clear but it looks like they were sent to the extension and outreach dept. Although like him I bet they crossed VP desk at some point. I seem to remember him saying at some point he tracked them or the data from them.
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waysider
Rascal
We believed it was true.
The people who told us, believed it was true.
The people who told them, believed it was true.
The people who told the people who told the people, believed it was true.
But if you follow the trail far enough back, I think you will find someone who knew it was a scam.
Their enticement tactics were deliberate not inadvertent.
I was the first member of my family to become involved.
I got other members of my family involved
That involvement changed their lives, as well as mine, in profoundly permanent ways that are not unique to my family alone.
These people who say, "You could have just walked away." have no idea what they are even talking about.
If they really believe it was/is that easy, perhaps THEY should just walk away from GSC to prove it since they seem to contend that GSC is wrong.
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Tom Strange
yeah... well mine is still in and a limb leader...
...ya think I don't have some regrets?
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doojable
Oh I don't expect him to change... That's between him and God.
There are always folks that get hurt in this kind of debate. I guess I'm getting a sense of something I just can't quite find the right words to describe. I'll try:
The women who were raped were victims of rape.
The women who were willing participants were also victims of a different kind. Even women who were recruiters to find yet more women, were victims.... I know this isn't the popular opinion, but to be so obsessed with power that you'll do ANYTHING to attain it...
Evil? Perhaps. But at one time these women started out with stars in their eyes and the hopes of finding a closer walk with God. They got led astray as well. It may not be the popular thing to do, but I feel compassion for them as well.
Poop flows downhill and everyone in the path gets covered in it.
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What The Hey
Liar. You were parrotting Nizkor, but I realize you are to blind to realize it. You were parrotting Nizkor in your own (and vain) attempt to defame Fred Leuchter and discredit him and his degree as an engineer. Then you went on to brag how you were even a (cough) "better scientist" than he was when you graduated from high school.
The only problem is, if Leuchter were truly as dishonest as you (and Nizkor) have attempted to make him, he would have simply pocketed his fees, lied and told the court whatever the prosecution and the media wanted to hear for themselves. Of course you don't recognize the trait you've picked up - which is, tell the people whatever it is they want to hear.
Typical WW. He simply tells GSC people whatever it is they want to hear because he is not capable of speaking the truth. If he ever did tell the truth it would only ruin his popularity among many GSC people.
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WordWolf
Man says I was lying about having NEVER READ NIZKOR.
Surely he can do better than that.
I mean, most people can see the logical possibility that I might
agree with someone's points in spite of never having heard them,
by virtue of having looked at the same evidence, and coming to the
same conclusions.
Not WTH.
With him, it's got to be some sort of coverup, some conspiracy.
Just like the one invented about the Holocaust.
Still has nothing to support his claim I'm lying.
Sad, sad, sad.
Impossible to parrot something you've never HEARD.
Most people can understand that...
He was already discredited, and my agreeing hardly was necessary.
And this is all in the wrong thread.
I was an average scientist in my high school.
Even the AVERAGE student would have skipped those mistakes in lab class.
They didn't have much choice if they wanted to pass.
Unless his motive was other than just money.
Some people have motives other than just money.
Some people can figure that out.
Typical WTH. Just invents a lie and expects people to believe it.
If he ever used his mind, he'd probably drop dead from the shock.
And all this, besides being inflammatory and useless,
is in the wrong thread.
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