Is is Possible ?

[waysider]

Oldiesman

Unless I've missed something, it appears you have chosen to ignore my invitation to examine my post on the "My Friend Liz" thread.

My friend, who I heard speak in tongues, for whatever worth you may place on that, was told by a grad of the AC that he was born again of the wrong seed.

That person heard the teaching on "seed of Satan"(or whatever you choose to call it) directly from the lips of VPW and then proceeded to disseminate that doctrine in our local area.

He was in a fragile state mentally, Oldies, and this was a totally inappropriate thing to tell him.

He left me a note saying he could not bear to live with that knowledge.

He took his own life.

You did not find his body. I did.

You did not help carry his coffin to the grave. I did.

You did not have to face the fact that you got him involved in something that contributed to his death. I DID!

So sit there all smug in your own little Camelot and believe that VPW had no connection to what happened.

My friend is still dead and nothing will change that.

Is it possible you'll never see how wrong this all was?

Only you can answer that question.

[Belle]

Is it possible you'll never see how wrong this all was?

Only you can answer that question.

Waysider, I'm sad to report that OM has been around since day one of WayDale and Greasespot Cafe, or pretty darn near it. That's about seven years of testimony and discussions much like this one. He has yet to change and I'm afraid he never will. :( Same for most of the other vee pee defenders - they are not new to any of this information, they just refuse to acknowledge it.

[oldiesman]

No, Victor Paul Wierwille had nothing to do with that death. He doesn't control the spirit of suicide, and I'm sure had he been around to help this man, he would have tried to help him.

I think its insane to keep blaming Wierwille for the actions of others.

I think the vast majority of the women who had abortions do accept responsibility for their actions and decisions. It's only a few posters who keep on beating the drum that these women were victims of Wierwille.

[Nero]

How horrible Waysider. =( I can't even imagine going through something like that. *hug hug*

Waysider, I'm sad to report that OM has been around since day one of WayDale and Greasespot Cafe, or pretty darn near it. That's about seven years of testimony and discussions much like this one. He has yet to change and I'm afraid he never will. :( Same for most of the other vee pee defenders - they are not new to any of this information, they just refuse to acknowledge it.

Or acknowledge it but make excuses? He sounds like a troll (or a bit like my father - ha!) He doesn't either care or believe what I say either because vp is the best person in the universe as far as he's concerned.

I got that troll impression from my lurking but I know there is no way I could know everything. Or do I have it wrong? Is om usually helpful and nice when VP isn't the subject? (I hate being so new even though I've been digging around a bit).

[oldiesman]

Nero you are always free to PM me and we can communicate privately, if you like.

[WordWolf]

Waysider:

Oldiesman

Unless I've missed something, it appears you have chosen to ignore my invitation to examine my post on the "My Friend Liz" thread.

My friend, who I heard speak in tongues, for whatever worth you may place on that, was told by a grad of the AC that he was born again of the wrong seed.

That person heard the teaching on "seed of Satan"(or whatever you choose to call it) directly from the lips of VPW and then proceeded to disseminate that doctrine in our local area.

He was in a fragile state mentally, Oldies, and this was a totally inappropriate thing to tell him.

He left me a note saying he could not bear to live with that knowledge.

He took his own life.

You did not find his body. I did.

You did not help carry his coffin to the grave. I did.

You did not have to face the fact that you got him involved in something that contributed to his death. I DID!

So sit there all smug in your own little Camelot and believe that VPW had no connection to what happened.

My friend is still dead and nothing will change that.

Is it possible you'll never see how wrong this all was?

Only you can answer that question.

Oldiesman:

No, Victor Paul Wierwille had nothing to do with that death. He doesn't control the spirit of suicide, and I'm sure had he been around to help this man, he would have tried to help him.

So, there we have it. Unless vpw can send a spirit, forcing the person to commit suicide,

he has "NOTHING TO DO" with that death.

vpw taught that doctrine-and taught it to many people, including the loose cannon.

(Apparently, vpw has "nothing to do" with teaching that man.)

The loose cannon then went and disseminated it all over the place.

(Apparently, vpw had "nothing to do" with someone spreading around something THAT HE TAUGHT THEM.)

This loose cannon confronted someone who was emotionally fragile and-with the typical

sledgehammer subtlety of twi-trained personnel-

that this person was not merely POSSESSED, but "born of the wrong seed",

that is, unsaved and forever INCAPABLE OF BEING SAVED.

(Which is a doctrine vpw taught him, and, apparently, bears no responsibility with once the people

leave the room.)

That person, already fragile emotionally and now convinced God had turned His back on him,

committed suicide.

If vpw had never spread this doctrine-which, BTW, is not a problem OTHER Christians have-

that loose cannon would not have anything to slap down that victim with.

But, according to Oldiesman, vpw "HAD NOTHING TO DO" with it.

Not "he didn't say to tell that man", but "had nothing to do" with it.

This says a lot about Oldies' frame of reference.

Fiduciary responsibility is still a nonexistent concept to him, although we've discussed it before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary_duty

It's like we never mentioned it nor explained it.

I think its insane to keep blaming Wierwille for the actions of others.

I think the vast majority of the women who had abortions do accept responsibility for their actions and decisions. It's only a few posters who keep on beating the drum that these women were victims of Wierwille.

I think it's insane to categorically absolve vpw 100% of all negative consequences of what he did-

while continuing to praise him for what's perceived as positive consequences of what he did.

If it's something good, he gets praise.

If it's something bad, he must be defended since it's not his fault- no matter what.

Duh, obviously the women who had abortions because vpw and his criminal gang leaned on them

bear responsibility- DUH- because they DID make the decision.

It was based entirely on incorrect information-indoctrinated by vpw and his cronies-

but they DID make the decision.

HOWEVER,

vpw ensured they made the decision IN HASTE, and based on specific MISinformation he wanted them to believe.

Try to find a HEALTHY Christian who would do that to another person.

[rascal]

It WOULD have been much nicer if simply dropping from the corpes was an option...trust me....I tried.

I was brought back...

I was told that I would be guilty of breaking a vow to God....Having lied....it was brought to my attention how annanias and saphira died for lying to God....

I was told that if I allowed the little paracite... to trick me into breaking my vow, that it would probably be malformed or posessed or whatever....

All it took was a simple clinical little procedure, the mass of cells wasn`t alive untill it took it`s first breath anyway...to make everything allright...after all the sin wasn`t in GETTING pregnant, it was only a sin if you allowed it to compromise your vow....

Nobody wanted to be guilty of breaking their vow to God....

The aborted children were not even whom I was thinking about...though that is another valid point.

I was thinking more about those who died by following his doctrine, who ignored physical symptoms or refused medical care because it was taught this was a lack of believing....I was thinking of those who died when participating in unsafe activities required by vpw...the hitchhiking to lead where someone died, the riding up and down the mountain in an unsafe vehicle...the wows that put their faith in him when he said that they should go and grow, who ended up dead at the hands of their coordinator....the people that he cast out of his ministry who crawled awayand died alone.

[WordWolf]

I got that troll impression from my lurking but I know there is no way I could know everything. Or do I have it wrong? Is om usually helpful and nice when VP isn't the subject? (I hate being so new even though I've been digging around a bit).

Myself,

I draw a distinction between trolling, and what Oldiesman USUALLY does.

And yes, so long as the subject is not vpw or, specifically, wrongs that can be traced directly or indirectly to vpw,

then, yes, Oldiesman can be a regular poster.

However, that represents a tiny portion of his posting, so it's hard to tell that if you're new.

[oldiesman]

I was thinking more about those who died by following his doctrine, who ignored physical symptoms or refused medical care because it was taught this was a lack of believing....I was thinking of those who died when participating in unsafe activities required by vpw...the hitchhiking to lead where someone died, the riding up and down the mountain in an unsafe vehicle...the wows that put their faith in him when he said that they should go and grow, who ended up dead at the hands of their coordinator....the people that he cast out of his ministry who crawled awayand died alone.

Yep, I think that is insanity.

I thought they ended up dead "at the hands of VP". now you're saying "at the hands of the coordinator".

Doesn't matter, as long as you blame someone else!

Insanity. Yes it is.

Edited October 17, 2007 by oldiesman

[rascal]

You know? The crime is that the abortion was presented as the ONLY solution to remaining in God`s will, and remaining alive spiritually and physically.

You were bullied into a corner and forced to chose between the life of your child and a life with God :(

It isn`t fair, that our love for God, our desire to serve him, and our fear of consequences of not obeying implicitly were the leverage used to make sure that we complied.

I have said it before, I could have disobeyed leaders, I could have stood up to any other human on the planet....what I could not so was disobey God.

[oldiesman]

Women could have went home if they desired to have the child. Don't you get tired of blaming others?

Women who want to have children have them.

[rascal]

Oldies, you were never a woman in that position....pretty damned stupid to think that you knew what we could and could not do...

I TRIED to leave....it took them two eeks to find me....I was asked to return to the limb to simply tie up a few loose endes...the bc picked me up and drove me....

I was then told what would happen to me if I failed to honor my vow to God....

The appointment was made FOR me, I was offered financial assistance if needed....I was picked up and TAKEN to the appt.

I fled...I couldn`t go through with it...I was then taken again before the lc, more scriptures concerning breath life and such...another appt made...this time the bc took me right into the office.....

Speaking as a woman in that position, I have explained what was required and why, I have explained how I felt that there was no other option if I desired to remain IN God`s will, UNDER God`s protection.

Damned right I am blaming wierwille, his doctrine, his stooges that enforced his doctrine.

God didn`t require that abortion...I didn`t want that abortion...VP`s dogma and organization required that blood.

They are no better than the aztec priests that required the blood of the babies to appease the rain God in my opinion.

I wish that they had just left me the hell alone.

Edited October 17, 2007 by rascal

[rascal]

Guess I don`t care if you think that is insane or not oldies. Doesn`t change the magnitude of the betrayal or the tragedy of the deaths, nor the suffering of the survivors one iota.

[oldiesman]

But had you not gotten pregnant in the first place, the twi machine wouldn't have had to get involved to try to convince you that keeping your vow was paramount according to scripture.

I see them as trying to do everything possible to help convince you to keep your commitment.

From their perspective, they were "doing the word" ...

(Numbers 30:2)

[oldiesman]

I mean , what do you expect? These were very serious people.

Did you expect them to just allow you to leave, to hell with you, after you had made the commitment for the Corps?

I don't think they could have just left you the hell alone and be right with God. That would have been absurd.

[rascal]

I expected to be allowed to make the best decision for myself and that of the child.

I never dreamed that in signing up to go into the corpes in order to be my best for God .... that it was an oath, a vow a commitment tpo God that was irrevocable, unbreakable, unalterable...shrug

I never have been forced to choose between the life of the child or God.

Edited October 17, 2007 by rascal

[rascal]

Sorry folks, I let it happen again. I didn`t mean to get dragged off topic in the same old stupid argument.

Oldies, your family had status, you benefitted personally under this monsters reign, so you want to dismiss the evil, viscious, soul and life destroying actions.... it probably grieves you not to be *special* any more..fine.

Know this though, your denial, your down playing of the horrors endured, dismissal of the deaths caused.... whether directly at vpw`s hands or as a result of his instruction and doctrine, will not in any way mitigate the impact of evil of his actions and life.

Edited October 17, 2007 by rascal

[waysider]

Are you familiar with the term"complicity", Oldies.

If someone is guilty of complicity, it means they were an "accomplice".

That's why the person who hires a hit-man is just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger.

The doctrines vpw extolled and the practices he commandeered make him an accomplice.

Try using your bogus "spirit of suicide" reasoning in a court of law and see if it flies.

The person who told him this, did so as a direct result of what wierwille taught in the advanced class.

That makes wierwille complicit.

You can skip the lesson on "spiritual significance".

I think a judge would be more interested in cold, hard facts.

The person who told him this was not aware he(my friend) spoke in tongues yet was so supposedly "spiritually tuned in" that they knew by discerning of spirits that he was "born of the wrong seed".

How is that possible?

It seems like your answer for everything is "Oh, they could have just walked away."

Is that what you did,Oldies? Just walked away as soon as you saw something amiss?

If your answer is "no", then my question is "Why not?"

I'm sure you believe what you are doing is part of a noble cause, but in reality you are nothing more than someone who revels in wierwille's complicity, perhaps even complicite yourself in some obtuse way.

Edited October 17, 2007 by waysider

[oldiesman]

Sorry folks, I let it happen again. I didn`t mean to get dragged off topic in the same old stupid argument.

Oldies, your family had status, you benefitted personally under this monsters reign, so you want to dismiss the evil, viscious, soul and life destroying actions....fine it probaly grieves you not to be *special* any more...shrug

However, your denial, your down playing of the horrors endured, the deaths caused.... whether directly at vpw`s hands or as a result of his instruction and doctrine, will not in any way mitigate the evilness of his actions and life.

Rascal, my family has nothing to do with this and, I was not treated anymore special than anyone else. In fact, my letter writing to hq questioning decisions made got me a reputation of being somewhat of a pain in the foot. I didn't dismiss evil that I saw, and actually confronted what I knew wasn't right. I have letters to prove it.

Treated special? I was thrown out of the corps when I screwed up. I could blame others for this, and did for a while, but finally came to the realization that it was all my fault. It was. I was to blame.

If you would stop blaming others for actions and decisions you made, maybe you'll be free to release the hurt and bitterness in your heart.

[oldiesman]

I'm sure you believe what you are doing is part of a noble cause, ...

Actually no. I believe what I'm doing is rendering opinions. No more, no less.

[LKH]

I'm new to all of this so I don't know as much about any of you as you all seem to.

Oldiesman, are you saying just because a woman did end up "sleeping" with leadership, that VPW or any leader who indulged in that kind of activity is without any blame? That is was all the woman's fault?

[Goey]

I think its insane to keep blaming Wierwille for the actions of others.

I think the vast majority of the women who had abortions do accept responsibility for their actions and decisions. It's only a few posters who keep on beating the drum that these women were victims of Wierwille.

I think it's insane to continue to defend VPW's callous, self-serving, and destructive behavior. Your ability to discern right from wrong and truth from error is clouded by your unwaivering adoration of VPW. It has made you just as callous, just as cold-hearted, and just as self-serving as VPW himself.

It may surprise you, but I consider you a victim as well. While I still hold you accountable for you callouness and cold-heartedness, I hold VPW even more accountable since he fathered you in it.

And contrary to what you think, it's way more than a "few posters" that think these women were victims of VPW. (I speak of those women who would not have had abortions except for the pressure applied by VPW and his minions.)

Actually, I doubt you think that at all. You've been around a long time and you know full well that more than a "few posters" hold VPW accountable for that. Who are you trying to persuade with that silly nonsense?

[rascal]

Oldies, you are labeling the outrage and pure disgust I feel for what these criminals did to innocent people, people, innocent of guile, who simply made the mistake of looking to them for guidance to God and instruction in rightiousness, as *hurt and bitterness*.

Does that some how make the evil more platable to you??

I personally am suprised when anyone is NOT hurt, offended, disgusted, outraged, or incensed at what these people did to innocent men, women, children, yes even the unborn...all in the name of God, under the guise of leadership...shrug

[Lifted Up]

I'm aware that the only Christians who do NOT consider abortions to be "taking a life" are those who

learned their definitions from vpw, or from those he taught.

WW, I do not have that impression at all.

Judging from the debates I have seen around me, there are plenty of Christians who do not consider abortions to be taking a life. Christians who have nor have never had any connection whatsoever to TWI.

True, I cannot guarantee they are Christians, just as I canot judge that they are not for taking such a position. But a lot of the arguments on both sides have come from church people.

Of course, we can debate the abortion subject forever and get rather heated, I suppose. My purpose in entering here is that I have a sticking point with consistency. If TWI being responsible for the death of innocents includes those aborted. then many in "the world" are doing the same thing.

It is one thing to knock TWI for forcing abortions. If that is what TWI did, then there is a case, IMO, for saying they did a great wrong, whether or not one believes that baby/fetus is a life before birth. I guess I am saying/agreeing here that the "life begins with the first breath" doctrine, even if true, does not justify coercing someone into having an abortion.

But if someone calls it the taking of a life, or even murder, to further "demonize" the evil done by TWI, then backs off on the life issue when the subject gets to non TWI related abortions, that IMO kills the argument of a great wrong being done, because they are using a glaring double standard.

If those aborted are innocents who died at the hand of TWI, then there are millions of innocents as well who have died at the hands of others not connected with TWI.

[WordWolf]

I'm new to all of this so I don't know as much about any of you as you all seem to.

Oldiesman, are you saying just because a woman did end up "sleeping" with leadership, that VPW or any leader who indulged in that kind of activity is without any blame? That is was all the woman's fault?

He's said a number of variations on that across the years.

We referenced one discussion where we talked about how vpw carefully selected a woman,

sculpted the situation to maximize his opportunity to sexually abuse her,

then set his trap-

which sprang with a drugged drink and she woke after the rape.

Oldies read that and suggested that SHE selected HIM instead of the other way around,

since her response didn't involve running straight to the police.