Is is Possible ?

[doojable]

That statement doesn't make sense. To the best of my knowledge Way believers don't go around accusing born again believers of being children of the devil.

Then you're about to get a lesson in "moving the goalposts."

[Sunesis]

Well, WTH just accused that person of being possessed - in a nice way, of course.

Why is it, the religious people and are the first to call someone they disagree or disapprove of, possessed.

I have to think now, since WTH has thrown out the "possession" card, they must be still with TWI. An innie valiently defending "the faith" who would probably gladly execute all these possesso women telling all these demon inspired stories about the great, infallible Pope Vic.

[Goey]

That statement doesn't make sense. To the best of my knowledge Way believers don't go around accusing born again believers of being children of the devil.

It makes perfect sense and you are good an example of it to some extent. While you may have not used the term "children of the devil" you have called the witnesses liars and such. Why quibble over terms? Jesus called those Pharisees "children of the devil" not because they were possessed or literally "born again of Satan" ( an impossibility) but rather because they were liars. Satan is the father of lies so thus Jesus used the figure "children of the devil."

BTW, these are not Way believers, but former Way believers who are big fans of VPW and his teachings. Folks somewhat like yourself.

For you, The "best of my knowledge" leaves a lot to be desired. Your M.O. remains intact. You didn't see it so it didn't happen.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Goey

[oldiesman]

Goey you have just falsely accused me of calling witnesses liars. There are over 4,000 posts of mine, and maybe 1 of them, several years ago, referred to a poster as lying. So shame on you for the false accusation.

While I believe there is a distinct probability that some posters repeatedly engage in false accusations, exaggerations and innuendo, calling direct eye witnesses outright liars is an ignorant act that I do not engage in.

Regarding your "child of the devil" comment; Way believers, even former ones, who call you a child of the devil must not respect VPW's teachings too much any more to refer to you, a known born again believer, as a child of the devil.

Edited October 15, 2007 by oldiesman

[Sunesis]

Oldies, calling someone's testimony "False accusations" is definitely calling someone a liar. Just, in a nice way.

Exagerations and innuendo, just add to it. Its all the same. Calling them liars in a polite manner.

[oldiesman]

Oldies, calling someone's testimony "False accusations" is definitely calling someone a liar.

No it isn't. There is a difference between calling someone a liar, and saying a statement of theirs is false and exaggerated.

Sunesis you are an intelligent person and I'm sure you can understand this if you want.

For instance, if someone said they believe PFAL is God - Breathed. Is that person a liar? No, not if they believe that statement to be true. On the other hand, what they have said is false and exaggerated and has been proven to be false and exaggerated. So you can say that that poster engages in exaggeration, without calling them a liar.

Same can be said for the statement "innocents died at VP's hands". That statement is false and exaggerated and can't be proven in any reasonable way. But since the person writing it believes it to be true, the poster shouldn't be called a liar.

Edited October 15, 2007 by oldiesman

[Goey]

Goey you have just falsely accused me of calling witnesses liars. There are over 4,000 posts of mine, and maybe 1 of them, several years ago, referred to a poster as lying. So shame on you for the false accusation.

While I believe there is a distinct probability that some posters repeatedly engage in false accusations, exaggerations and innuendo, calling direct eye witnesses outright liars is an ignorant act that I do not engage in.

Shame on me? Got to laugh at you on that one Oldies. You are quibbling over terms and hiding behind what you think to be cleverly crafted language. But honstley dude, you are just not quite clever enough to pull it off.

"A distiinct probablilty that some posters repeadedly engage in false accusations" ?

Not outright liars, just probable ones?

Maybe I should dig up some of your more classic posts, compile them, and start a thread

callled the "BEST OF OLDIES" Why let Mike have all the glory?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

LMAO at Oldiesman

Edited October 15, 2007 by Goey

[oldiesman]

Am not hiding behind anything. I think there's a way to call someone's post false and exaggerated without calling the poster a liar.

Are you ok Goey? You don't seem your usual calm self. Perhaps you are having a bad day so I would suggest you take a deep breath, relax, sit back and enjoy a couple of slugs:

[Goey]

I am having a great day thank you.

Why don't you take that bottle of Drambuie, Bronze it and make a little shrine?

[Goey]

Oldies,

A lie is a falshood. Get it? How thick are you really?

Example:

If some claims as an eye-witness that VPW was sitting naked when they entered the room and then he asked them to perfom a certain lewd act with him. And in response, someone else says "That's false and exaggerated, I don't believe it"

How is that not calling them a liar?

Take your time.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Goey

[oldiesman]

Goey,

I will answer your question this way. A poster said "innocents died at VP's hands". I stated that was a false accusation.

I'm not calling the poster a liar, because the poster believes that allegation to be true and yet, it is an allegation that can't be reasonably proven, so I believe it is false.

A lot of what we post are simply opinions. I have mine, you have yours, etc. Try not to be so sensitive.

[oldiesman]

Goey I am going to be absent for a couple of days and can't answer any more of your posts until then.

This thread is so much fun. Have a good day. :)

[waysider]

That statement doesn't make sense. To the best of my knowledge Way believers don't go around accusing born again believers of being children of the devil.

Perhaps you missed my post in the "My friend Liz" thread.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was quite new "in The Word", I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed as schizophrenic.

He was doing fairly well(but not great) with the clinical treatments he was receiving which included very heavy duty pharmaceuticals.

One of the "lovely" young ladies in our branch(who went on to much bigger and "better" things with TWI) was kind enough to tell him his problems probably stemmed from the fact that he was "born of the wrong seed".

Not long after that, I found myself being asked by his father to be a pall bearer at his funeral.

He left me a note saying that he had learned something about himself that he could not bear to live with.

It was me who insisted he come with me to twig because I thought it could help him.

It was me who had to find his lifeless body that cool Autumn night.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited October 15, 2007 by waysider

[Goey]

Goey,

I will answer your question this way. A poster said "innocents died at VP's hands". I stated that was a false accusation.

I'm not calling the poster a liar, because the poster believes that allegation to be true and yet, it is an allegation that can't be reasonably proven, so I believe it is false.

A lot of what we post are simply opinions. I have mine, you have yours, etc. Try not to be so sensitive.

You did not answer my question at all. You dodged it by giving a different example of your own and then answering that instead. Classic strawman.

Then you obfsucate things and turn allegations and accusations into "simply opinions".

Then finally the presumptive ad hominum - Try not to be so sensitive ...

Same Oldies that was here when I went on leave. Haven't changed a bit. Your posts are still predictable and follow the same basic paterns as usual.

Strawman, obfuscate, ad hominum. (Not necessarily in that order)

[waysider]

Geeze, youse guys!

Don't youse remember nuttin'?

If you say somebody is a liar, that's a metaphor.

If you say somebody is like a liar, that's a similie.

If you address them directly and say,"Liar!", that's hypocatastasis.

See the difference?

HaHaHaHaHa!

ME NEITHER!!!

Edited October 15, 2007 by waysider

[doojable]

Regarding your "child of the devil" comment; Way believers, even former ones, who call you a child of the devil must not respect VPW's teachings too much any more to refer to you, a known born again believer, as a child of the devil.

OM - Ask a few of the clergy who left TWI early...

LCM referred to them as being "seed," "born of the devil," and such.

These are men that VP and he chose for ordination. They went through the corps and they spoke in tongues for years.

Go ahead, start a thread asking if anyone remembers a clergy member being called "seed." See if maybe a few of the clergy themselves answer you.

I keep telling you - the goalposts got moved.

Edited October 15, 2007 by doojable

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Is it possible that there was no person named Victor Paul Wierwille?...That the guy on the stage was really an actor?

Is it possible that oldiesman and Mike are really cartoon charactors that exist only in cyberspace?

Is it possible that the roast I have in the oven is really an old shoe that just happens to smell good while cooking?

Hmmm...deep things to ponder.

[waysider]

Is it possible there are people who will never experience that sense of relief that comes with admitting they were duped?

That feeling that comes from realizing you're not "tripped out" just because you left a destructive cult?

I would have to say,"yes".

[Ham]

Is it possible there are people who will never experience that sense of relief that comes with admitting they were duped?

You have to be able to love yourself at least primarily, to do just that..

[Goey]

For instance, if someone said they believe PFAL is God - Breathed. Is that person a liar? No, not if they believe that statement to be true. On the other hand, what they have said is false and exaggerated and has been proven to be false and exaggerated. So you can say that that poster engages in exaggeration, without calling them a liar.

Did the the Pharsiees believe that they were right and justified? Sure they did. Yet Jesus still called them liars. Don't recall him saying they were exaggerating.

If someone tells me a lie and I believe it, and then I tell it to someone else as being true, is it no longer a lie? Am I then not a liar simply because I believe it to be true? Why do you suppose that the Bible says that "all" men are liars?

Same can be said for the statement "innocents died at VP's hands". That statement is false and exaggerated and can't be proven in any reasonable way. But since the person writing it believes it to be true, the poster shouldn't be called a liar.

Why is that statement necessarily false or exaggerated? Becasue you say so? Because it can't (in your opinion) be proven in a reasonable way? We be believe God exists. According to your method of reason that would be false and exaggerated. It cannot be universally proved. Simply because something cannot be proved does not make it false, it just makes it unproved.

On the other hand, If that statement can be proven false, then I would actually have no problem calling that person a liar. Can it be proven either way? I think it can, but only to an objective mind that is capable of honesty weighing the evidence.

BTW, what is false about it?

1. That anyone died
   
2. That the ones that died were innocent
   
3. That VPW had a role in it
   

Go ahead Oldies. Let's see you prove it false.

[Dot Matrix]

oldies

I do not want to dig, but in poor Doreen's thread on PFAL:

Excath finally, after years of dribbling out bits of what happened, put it all in a comprehensive post. It took her that many years to come to terms with the "Moggie" being a rapist. She started talking about how he was SICK and exposed himself... leading to her claims of rape.

And you said something to her like maybe SHE chose HIM.

That is saying without the SAME words, you are lying, he did not rape you, you are not a victim infact it was your decision - you chose him

Frankly, that was so shocking - I would have rather you called her a liar out right - it would have been less cruel.

So, in you 4,000 posts you may not have technically called people a "liar" but you have ripped the souls from injured people by your callouse statements, cast unbelief on their accounts and victimized victims. You do not get a "pass" because you cleverly did not use the actual word "LIAR".

IMO you were much more damaging. Being called a liar would have been pleasent compared to the destruction you have done.

And just because you closely know someone who CHOSE to sleep with all the hayseeds does not mean everyone else was interested, some of us could get dates on our own, and were not interested in hickville as a "spawning" pond. We truly were seeking Jesus.

Speaking of cruel, where has Jeaniam been since we have more people here bearing witness to the people who have been raped and abused?

Perhaps she would like to tangle with a few more people who KNOW what happened?

Edited for a typo

Edited October 16, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[Dot Matrix]

Here it is, Excath spoke of the perverts actions. Exposing himself and some strange things prior ro being raped.

This was YOUR statement:

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

Do you have any idea how harmful that was, all the other acusations attached to that statement there were?

Geez Oldies, being called a liar would have been mild

And even after accounts like this... We still have the die hards... Excusing VP.... And glorifying him

In 1980, I spent two about two hours having lunch with my sister in Christ ex. I spent a year in training with her at Emporia . Although I didnt know her well, my WOWs' and I were in her town and I made contact with her. It was one of my fondest memories back in those days. Ex spoke the Word to me, I spoke the Word to her and we had a great time of fellowship. I saw the five-fold ministry of a Pastor in her and perceived a pure heart and a tremendous love for God. She blessed my life with her time and really ministered to me as I was pretty worn out from "the field."

As I read this thread I learned things about her past that I did not know about.

I am appalled at the attacks on her life. I am disgusted with the lack of sympathy and the hard heartedness aimed at her.

I have learned over the years after being married for 26 years (and a faithful husband) that I or no other men have a clue how women think or how deeply sensitive they are. Many men are insensitive and think they are God's gift to women. Self absorbed men think all women "want it" because they think all women want them. What a joke.

Where is the love of God and graciousness toward ex and other women who have been so violated by someone they were supposed to be able to trust?

Ex is a wonderful woman with a heart for God. The rapes by VPW were no less than an attack by a man with devils of lust designed to steal, kill and destroy their lives thus aborting their ministerial calling not to mention their joy and happiness. Rape, what a selfish act. It is a violation of free will.

I traveled and taught bible classes in 13 states in the U.S. from 1995 to 1998. The classes were mainly former TWI folks. The classes were designed to heal and restore people. I taught approximately one class a month. In EVERY class, at least one woman came to me and told me that VPW had raped them or forced them to do something sexually. One woman even told me she was his mistress at HQ for years and VP got jealous if he saw her with another man. These were first hand accounts and these women were truly traumitized. I heard more than I ever wanted to know and still have to live with the memories of their experiences. Instead of attacking ex, we should extend a healing hand to her.

We as the body of Christ should discern the times and seasons and know that Christ is returning soon. Time spent attacking one another is time wasted and there are STILL souls in the world that need to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Why don't we rise up again and get in the spiritual fight. Lets quit arguing over doctrine and witness to someone.

Greasespot can be the most healing place for old TWI folks. Lets heal and not hurt.

You know what I learned in PFAL? To walk in the love of God AND there is a dying world that needs to be evangelized.

[rascal]

Well said you guys..

I`d forgotten how mad that whole exchange made me Dot....

Excathedra is a hero for sharing the true side of vp that most of us never saw. Understanding vp`s nature....understanding who and what he really was....this is so vital in beginning our healing, it is the first step in stopping the condemnation and shame of not being good enough, or spiritual enough...etc...to know and understand that vp wierwille wasn`t the end all be all mog...that his doctrine wasn`t spiritually healthy....that is what sets us free to begin healing.

For her to come forth and bare her soul...for her to finally break the silence, knowing how difficult it was to share ..... and then have some arm chair psychiatrist 25 years after the fact ....imply that she wanted it, or somehow deserved it....or that it just wasn`t all that bad...is plain low down, heartless, and frankly just plain creepy.

[WordWolf]

There are over 4,000 posts of mine, and maybe 1 of them, several years ago, referred to a poster as lying. So shame on you for the false accusation.

someone else:

"I have never lied about ANYTHING that I have posted here...."

Oldiesman directly responding to that:

"I disagree: you've made false accusations, assumptions, and false conclusions..."

When one person says "I never lied" and the other person says "I disagree",

anyone with the brains God gave them and INTELLECTUAL HONESTY would say that the second person

called the first a liar.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...liar&st=140

Sep 3 2004, 11:22 AM

Oldiesman again:

"I never called you or anyone a liar.

Produce the quote please.

I HAVE called you a false accuser, which is exactly what you are doing right now."

Oct 18 2004, 04:46 PM

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...liar&st=120

When Oldies denied that "calling someone a FALSE accuser" means "calling someone a liar",

I explained.

"[Her personal testimony IS what she stated. It includes an indictment and accusation of wrongdoing by that evil ringleader, vpw. You claim her "accusation" is "false", which means that you're saying her "personal testimony"-which is the body of her accusation and indictment of wrongdoing-is not true. You're saying that her "accusation" is not "true". YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. You know, most humans don't have these sorts of problems, because they don't torture the English language and strive to ascribe alternate meanings to words to fit their convenience. YOU JUST CALLED RASCAL A LIAR AGAIN, in the process of claiming you didn't. ]"

Then there was this one:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...amp;#entry78667

May 17 2004, 03:57 PM

"S******, you're full of crap."

=======

So, shame on Oldiesman for his intellectual dishonesty when calling people liars

while denying he's calling them liars.

When I call someone a liar, I do so with the word "liar", and stand by it unless proven wrong.

Shame on me? Got to laugh at you on that one Oldies. You are quibbling over terms and hiding behind what you think to be cleverly crafted language. But honstley dude, you are just not quite clever enough to pull it off.

"A distiinct probablilty that some posters repeadedly engage in false accusations" ?

Not outright liars, just probable ones?

Well, that's USUALLY his M.O.- to hide calling someone a liar by

an aversion to the WORD "liar" while using the CONCEPT "liar."

Oldies,

A lie is a falsehood. Get it? How thick are you really?

Example:

If some claims as an eye-witness that VPW was sitting naked when they entered the room and then he asked them to perfom a certain lewd act with him. And in response, someone else says "That's false and exaggerated, I don't believe it"

How is that not calling them a liar?

Take your time.

[johniam]

Is it possible that most of us here are deceived? That VPW never really abused anyone?

Is it possible that all of those that have claimed that VPW abused them sexually are liars with an axe to grind?

Is is possible that the drugged rape alegations are lies from the pit of hell?

Is is possible that those who have alleged his alcoholism, meanness, vindictiveness, plaigerism, money mongering, womanizing, etc are also liars with an axe to grind?

Is it possibe that his alleged plaigerisms where just honest mistakes?

Is it possible that the snowstorm really did happen and that God really did speak to VPW and that God really did did teach VPW the word of God like it had not been known since the First Century?

Is it possible that those of us who have revealed or even repeated to others the "sins" of VPW and others "ministers" in TWI - that we are Ministers of Darkness fighting against God?

Is is possible that Word that VPW taught more than covers for any sins that he may have committed and that his "sins" if any were just those sins common to all humans?

Is it possible that even if VPW did commit the things that he as been accused of that God could and would allow him to become or remain a minister ( eg. apostle, teacher, pastor ) even though he never repented of those sins?

Is it possible?

Gen 3:22 - ...behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...

Gen 6:5 - and God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

Gen 8:21 - ...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth...

Jer 17:9 - the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

Luke 11:13 - if ye then, being evil...

Is it possible...that God, knowing how evil man seems to gravitate toward, has a different criteria for choosing who He works through than politically correct, or man's morality, or whatever other flawed, 'set up for failure' standards mankind uses?

Do you think Noah wasn't just as evil in the imagination of his heart as anyone else living at the time? It says he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Why not VP?

Gideon was a poor man in Manassah. God gave him power. He had 70 kids. Must've liked his tang, too.

Saul was so afraid of success he hid among the stuff. God gave him power. He abused people.

David was a man after God's own heart. God gave him power. If VP raped anybody then David raped Bathsheba.

Solomon pleased God. God gave him wisdom, honour, and riches. He, too, abused people.

This idea that VP couldn't possibly have been a MOG is based on politically correct and other man made standards. Isaiah 55:8 says ...my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways (v.9) as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

In the previous verse (v. 7) the higher thoughts and ways are...to have mercy and abundantly pardon. Man's thoughts and ways are often to NOT show mercy and not even marginally pardon. That's part of the evil.

This thread proves to me something I've felt all along: that even though the "VP defenders" are greatly outnumbered by the condemners, our words are stronger than yours. They have more impact.