Is is Possible ?

[doojable]

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if you believe it happened or not.

It either happened or it didn't. There is no amount of disbelief that will change what happened.

There are real people who have come forward with real stories. Some of these stories are horrific. Many of these people believed they were an isolated instance. Some believed it was their fault. We aren't just talking about one affair. We are talking about systematized error that allowed what legally could be referred to as "sexual harrassment."

I wasn't one of those women. BUT I had enough clergy and clergy wannabes ask me some questions that, had I answered them in the fashion they desired, would have been seen as me giving them permission to have their way with me.

[rascal]

As a finger pointer, I`ll accept that challenge....

IF I posed a danger to society with my evil actions, if the pernicious evil of my doctrine still was being used as a tool to enslave and hurt...I`d sure as shootin be worried about what people were writing about me.

IF my doctrine was still a tool of the men and women that utilized it to garner to themselves power, money, subjegating people to their cruel whims....I guess that I would be sweating bullets about what people were writing about me.

Most of us are trying our best to live life with honesty and integrity. There are very few that embrace evil to the extent vpw did and taught others to do as well....most would have pretty boring web sites if it was all about the evil we had done...shrug

He will have a lot to answere for when it is examined how many people he drew off track as christians.

Edited October 12, 2007 by rascal

[oldiesman]

Forget VPW for now. Is it more more cruel to expose the damaging behavior of a religious leader

Exposition of a cruelty is good. But what I think some posters do is go way beyond exposition into evil surmising, judging of people's hearts and motives, pharaseeism. All the while portraying themselves as righteous believers who want to rescue folks from twi.

For one, I think it is extremely inconsiderate to keep on condemning and ridiculing folks who choose their religion... for better or for worse, it is their choice to be in twi.

Second, my BS COUNTER goes off the scale when reading that these unrelenting condemnations are supposedly motivated by God, Jesus, holy spirit, or liking them to Jesus condemning the Pharisees. The Pharisees were children of the devil who ultimately murdered our Lord Jesus. And some of you have the gall to compare Wierwille to them. Shame on some of you.

[rascal]

I think your bs counter needs to be serviced oldies, cause it seems to be out of whack.

Innocents died at vpw`s hands as well. Children seeking God were mistreated and abused, their lives and trust betrayed. He used the name of God to commit his crimes and atrocities, I think he had a LOT in common with the pharicees...shrug...if anything we are probably being unfair to the pharicees in that comparison.

The only shame is on wierwilles head for what he did to people in the name of God.

Edited October 12, 2007 by rascal

[doojable]

The Pharisees were children of the devil who ultimately murdered our Lord Jesus. And some of you have the gall to compare Wierwille to them. Shame on some of you.

Oldies... Big statement there.

First, it isn't necessarily true that all the Pharisees were children of the devil. Jesus said to a group of Pharisees that challenged him that their father was the "Father of lies." It was a specific group that he spoke to. Remember that Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

And suppose.. just suppose, you're wrong. If even a fraction of the stories about VPW's lusts are true. Suppose it's true he taught even one man to follow in his footsteps of sin. If even a small portion of that is true, then he is responsible for killing Christ in the sense that he hurt one of God's children, a member of the Body of Christ.

As to who has the gall to call Weirwille a Pharisee. You know full well and good that the phrase "Pharisee" refers to a person who says one thing while he does another. One who makes laws so strict that he himself can't follow them.

Shame on you if you can't see the comparison.

Edited October 12, 2007 by doojable

[excathedra]

Is it possible?

no, goey

[Ham]

I think some people wish it were possible though..

[Belle]

I think some people wish it were possible though..

It has to be possible for some people or they have the difficult task of coming to terms with family or loved ones being guilty of the same treachery and having a direct hand in enabling vee pee.

Imagine Ramona Bidon is your sister - you either have to call everyone else a liar or you have to admit that your sister is one evil bee-yotch.

[oldiesman]

I think your bs counter needs to be serviced oldies, cause it seems to be out of whack.

Rascal, when you post it usually recalibrates itself. :)

[Goey]

Second, my BS COUNTER goes off the scale when reading that these unrelenting condemnations are supposedly motivated by God, Jesus, holy spirit, or liking them to Jesus condemning the Pharisees. The Pharisees were children of the devil who ultimately murdered our Lord Jesus. And some of you have the gall to compare Wierwille to them. Shame on some of you.

I must have missed most of the posts where there were unrelenting condemnations ( againt VPW),. I do however see where the sin is condemned. In my time here I doubt that I have read more than a handful of posts that actually "condemn" VPW. By condemn, I mean in the biblical sense of pronuncing both guilt and sentence. Few here have ever suggested tht VPW will burn in hell or that he was worthy of death. That kind of judgment is up to God and anyone going that far is crossing the line as far as I am concerned.

Oldies, what you mean by "condemn". There is quite a different between exposing harmful sin and condemnation.

I don't think I have ever read where someone claimed to be motivated by God or the holy spirit in the condemnation of VPW. I think you are hearing something that is not being said. I disagree with the other poster that you BS counter is broken. I suspect instead that it is really a BS generator and that it is working fine.

I think the Pharisee comparison is fair in regards to VPW or to anyone else who holds themselves up as a member of the spiritual elite while exempting themselves of the burdens they place on others. It basically refers to hipocracy and self- righteousness. Not all pharisees were murders so your indignation is basically unwarranted in the context of comparing VPW to a pharisee.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Goey

[oldiesman]

Goey, its a pity you started this thread on Friday when the weekend is approaching and I'll be absent. :)

Oldies, what you mean by "condemn".

Golly, how about Rascal's false accusation that innocents died at VP's hands? She is condemning Wierwille for killing people, with no regard to Wierwilles heart or intent on these matters. She's judge, jury and executioner. That is condemnation.

I think the Pharisee comparison is fair in regards to VPW or to anyone else who holds themselves up as a member of the spiritual elite while exempting themselves of the burdens they place on others. It basically refers to hipocracy and self- righteousness. Not all pharisees were murders so your indignation is basically unwarranted in the context of comparing VPW to a pharisee.

I know all Pharisees were not murderers. But no, its not fair to compare Wierwille to those Pharisees who Jesus called children of the devil, and later murdered him. Wierwille gets regularly compared to the worst of the worst of society by some posters who focus and magnify his sins and see only through that little prism.

Edited October 12, 2007 by oldiesman

[oldiesman]

I don't think I have ever read where someone claimed to be motivated by God or the holy spirit in the condemnation of VPW.

Let's start with one example, Dr. Juedes. His "Godly Mission" is to expose the evils of twi. But talk to him about anything good that happened in twi, anything that glorifies God, or how folks got blessed, and he's not interested. It doesn't serve his purpose. Look, when people consider only bad and not good, something's wrong someplace!

Goey if you ever talk to Dr. Juedes, mention to him that you probably got born again in twi (something you wrote a long time ago that I have never forgotten) and see what his reaction is.

[rascal]

My accusations are not false. You apparently are unable to handle the truth ...so you try to make people believe that those speaking it, out to be lying.

Shame on YOU oldies.

Shame on you for being more offended with the people for speaking of wierwilles evil ...than at wierwille for actually committing the atrocities himself.

Shame on YOU for falsely accusing people ...whom simply speak of wierwilles evil.

[anotherDan]

Preacher.... don't forget to email me about that witnessing expedition.

Have a nice weekend, Oldies

Edited October 12, 2007 by anotherDan

[WhiteDove]

btw oldiesman, haven't heard any 'Word of God' from you ever,

just what exactly is that to you?

All I hear is you crying about us.

Here's a theory:

It is a pretty well known fact that GreaseSpot is not a Christian site a fact that is routinely brought to the readers attention.(Usually at the first whiff of leather) Just why exactly would you expect someone to share something like that ? I believe the last person that asked for chapter and verse earlier this month was properly disected and burned at the stake in the usual record breaking time. You can't have it both ways complain because some one does not share and complain when they do ..........

Edited October 12, 2007 by WhiteDove

[doojable]

I believe the last person that asked for chapter and verse earlier this month was properly disected and burned at the stake in the usual record breaking time. You can't have it both ways complain because some one does not share and complain when they do ..........

Look at the context of that request:

People, people people, ya want to express your disatisfaction with the way that you were treated at twi; and I can relate to that.

However the promotion of random emotions and the lack of scripture reference is leaving God out of the picture.

I reviewe the weekly news topics digest e-mailed to me weekly and after reviewing it, I DID NOT FIND ONE SCRIPTURE QUOTED,,,,, hmmm which god are some of you working for?

Ya see, God backs up His word. So please delve into its wisdom and truth. And if you want to whine about twi, try to find their faults in the written scripure. Its there for those who have a connection with the father, and not there for those who dont.

And FYI, history repeats itself, dont ya think that after the death of the Apostle Paul people like you went about bad mouthing him, enlarging their ego's making themselves out to be right and the man who taught them the word which included the great mystery which had not been know ....

here...

Sooo.. What was asked for was scripture to back up the complaints. That has been done and was continued on the thread.

There are not always simple one verse answers to everything.

The second thing he wanted to do was condemn:

This past spring there was a large movement in San-Franscisco, of young people who were looking to God to help with the way they saw the world around them become more and more immoral, by movies, music, violece immoral acceptance of same sex marriage, the list goes on. ANYWAY, THEY SHOWED A VIDEO ON TV OF 3 YOUNG PEOPLE PRAYING TO GOD, SAYING "GOD WE KNOW YOU'RE THERE, WE PRAY FOR THIS ,PLEASE HELP US"

Did HQ send some abassadors there? Did any of you living there go and preach the word?

Man oh man, it dont get any simpler for us to help God move his word. He's given us the knowlege, showed us where the hungry souls are,,,,

LETS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!

He not only presumes that lots of the folks here saw that video, but that they ignored it as well.

Then he further assumes God's will in all of this. (Remember that Paul went to Macedonia after he was told to bypass a lot of other cities he thought needed the Gospel.)

Lastly, if these students truly prayed for God to help them, it doesn't necessarily follow that they were asking for folks to go out and help them preach. Having not seen the clip it appears they asked for God's help. Who's to say that God didn't answer their prayer?

[cman]

Thank God Wierwille and TWI were around to reach me and thousands of folks with the Word of God. Heck, I'm still glad twi and the offshoots are still around... they can help folks who need help.

BTW I feel the same way about the RC church, despite their past atrocities.

God will deal with VPW sins; "vengence is mine, I will repay" saith the Lord.

Hey its FRIDAY.

Getting ready for the weekend? I am. :)

White Dove, this is what I am responding to and challenging.

Thank God Wierwille and TWI were around to reach me and thousands of folks with the Word of God.

Let us see this word that is supposedly from God that oldiesman brought up.

And dissect it? No, quite a different approach I would take.

Which you will see if this 'word of god' ever comes out of oldies mouth.

Frankly, I doubt that he will respond to this challenge.

[WhiteDove]

I doubt he will either it's not his first time around the block here. We shall see.........

[WordWolf]

Golly, how about Rascal's false accusation that innocents died at VP's hands? She is condemning Wierwille for killing people, with no regard to Wierwilles heart or intent on these matters.

Make up your mind-

are you claiming you're unaware of anyone dying as a direct result of vpw? (DIRECT, yes.)

Or are you claiming that anyone dying as a direct result of vpw must be considered with his intent.

(Maybe he didn't MEAN to kill them, and his hands are clean no matter how dead

he made them...)

Wierwille gets regularly compared to the worst of the worst of society by some posters who focus and magnify his sins and see only through that little prism.

John Wayne Gacy was a pillar of his community, a member of the Jaycees, and

entertained children as Pogo the clown.

However, some people focus on his sins and see only through that little prism-

after all, he didn't spend a LOT of time killing children, just small amounts of it.

Can't you look at the ENTIRE man and not just his sins?

[WordWolf]

Let's start with one example, Dr. Juedes. His "Godly Mission" is to expose the evils of twi.

Let's start with one exagerration- the claim that Juedes' "Godly Mission" is to expose twi's evil

when he only spends a few minutes a week here, and his congregation gets all of his time.

But talk to him about anything good that happened in twi, anything that glorifies God, or how folks got blessed, and he's not interested. It doesn't serve his purpose.

I'd be interested in seeing these supposed discussions. There's a difference between disinterest

in people getting blessed, and disinterest in sycophantic drivel. (And many things that are neither,

and are somewhere in between.) I'm suspicious I'm getting a less-than-fair appraisal of

Juedes' interests, especially when he's being mischaracterized as having a "Godly Mission"

to do stuff that's obviously a sideline for him.

Look, when people consider only bad and not good, something's wrong someplace!

But ignoring 99% of the bad, and considering only the good is perfectly healthy???

Goey if you ever talk to Dr. Juedes, mention to him that you probably got born again in twi (something you wrote a long time ago that I have never forgotten) and see what his reaction is.

Wouldn't hurt. If it's true, go ahead and say it, and see if he really just blows you

off like Oldies characterizes.

[WordWolf]

Here's a theory:

It is a pretty well known fact that GreaseSpot is not a Christian site a fact that is routinely brought to the readers attention.(Usually at the first whiff of leather)

Actually, it's usually brought up at the first swing of the newly-arrived zealot's 2 x 4,

that their condemnation of us is based on something that's not a universal here, and thus

it's misplaced- as if any OTHER form of (metaphorical) 2 x 4 is proper...

Then again, they don't read the stickies, which is a basic rule of internet posting.

It's a pretty well-known fact that people have to be told the contents of one of the

stickies pretty routinely.

Just why exactly would you expect someone to share something like that ?

Well,

if someone's criticizing US for not following a rule, they should be practicing what

they're preaching to us. Don't tell me to abstain from extramarital/premarital sex

and boink someone not your spouse. Don't say I'm wrong for not invoking the Bible

and never invoke it yourself.

For that matter, I put my Bible discussions in DOCTRINAL where they belong.

Please also note, I wasn't the one who asked in the first place, but I thought your

question warranted an honest answer, and I saw it "first".

I believe the last person that asked for chapter and verse earlier this month was properly disected and burned at the stake in the usual record breaking time.

I believe you are incorrect.

That person arrived somewhere and immediately pronounced judgement upon everyone else.

That got responses, which were primarily due to poor manners and only incidentally

due to use of Scripture as his SPECIFIC bludgeon.

Furthermore,

calling what happened a "dissection", or "burning at the stake" is a gross mischaracterization.

As you saw, the poster survived, responded to some posts, and is still posting.

And I've noticed he's moderated his tone considerably, and his replies have

reflected that.

Feeling like some sort of "martyr"? The "burn at the stake" thing came from SOMEWHERE.

And if you knew more about burning at the stake, you'd be a LOT slower to compare

curt posting with flames searing flesh and lungs, burning hair and cloth.

You can't have it both ways complain because some one does not share and complain when they do ..........

If someone does something I like, but does it in the wrong manner,

I reserve the right to take exception.

[What The Hey]

..... There are real people who have come forward with real stories. ....

And real people have come forward with stories of space aliens that sexually abused them, took them up in their flying saucer and did all that nasty stuff to them, etc. as well. Just what was the point you were trying to make?

[WordWolf]

And real people have come forward with stories of space aliens that sexually abused them, took them up in their flying saucer and did all that nasty stuff to them, etc. as well. Just what was the point you were trying to make?

Since I believe you honestly don't understand the difference, I'll explain, in part.

Comparing and contrasting vpw's victims who've come forth with alien abductees.

Alien abductees are rare, and tend towards the tinfoil-hat and conspiracy theory types.

vpw's victims tend to be women whose lives were working until an event happened,

leaving them emotionally scarred, or crippled in some cases. This event is reported

to be sexual abuse by vpw. Their testimony agrees with each other, despite an

absence of a conspiracy to coordinate their stories.

Their accounts are corroborated by those who knew them at the time.

Some of THEM were told right after, some saw things and were only able to make

sense of them once they realized "vpw's a rapist" was an option, and the most

likely one.

Their accounts are further corroborated by confessions from people who were in

vpw's inner circle who have since shown remorse for not stopping things.

So, it's not just "their word against your opinion of vpw."

[excathedra]

veepee was an alien ????? damn i was too busy being sexually assaulted to notice the motorcoach flying into outer space

thinking about it now that pilot pyschogeer was definitely an alien

[rascal]

LMAO Ex..:)

Alien abduction would certainly be a whole lot less embarassing explanation than twi cult involvement when people ask.