Maybe they were running a special when I took it. Then again, it was 33 years ago, so I could be wrong, but some things just stick in your brain. I remember I cashed in a $25.00 savings bond my parents had given me and had to come up with $10.00 more.
The very fact that it bounced up and down so drastically seems to suggest to me that the cost of the class was not directly linked to the cost of providing it. It doesn't make any sense that a business with an eye on production costs would charge such varied rates unless the profit margin was enormous. Yet, it's obvious from what has been posted here that they did exactly that .
This thread brings to mind the House of Acts and the Living Room that was run by the hippy's from the Haight in San Francisco. What they did there was very effective, I don't think they asked for money either, and they were the starting point that the vicster drew from.
I'm not sure whether they were corrupted once they hooked up with vp's outfit, do any of you oldsters recall whether the Way East or West advocated payments of money in the early days?
Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?
May I challenge you to show from scripture that teaching and preaching God's Word was supposed to ALWAYS be a freebee?
I think the idea of non-profit means something a little different.
People can still get paid reasonable salaries (meaning pretty high) in a non-profit corporation, but the extra money left over after all expenses and salaries are paid must then go back into corporate activities, and not into share holders pockets. That’s a pretty technical idea, and not a general financial principle solely governed by the prefix “non.”
***
Didn’t anyone here take the Orientalisms class?
Where did Judas get the money to pay for the property where he was ultimately committed suicide?
Was it from “the thirty pieces of silver” that he got for betraying Jesus? Think logically, and watch your times.
John 12:1 ¶Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
There’s an ancient scrap of paper that fell somewhere behind my desk, and it documents that the Sandskrit for “bag” is “cornucopia,” ;) but I can’t reach it.
I know that "non-profit" means that the employees still get paid. If a non-profit corporation doesn't spend a certain amount of it's "profits" they lose their status and must again pay taxes.
Sooo.. what you're saying then is that the financial holdings of TWI that are in offshore accounts - was stolen? Judas seems an appropriate name to summon up.
There’s an ancient scrap of paper that fell somewhere behind my desk, and it documents that the Sandskrit for “bag” is “cornucopia,” ;) but I can’t reach it.
Sounds to me like you are "reaching for it" right now, my friend.
So let me see if I understand you correctly.
Are you saying Judas was really part of a non-profit endeavor and has been misunderstood all these years?
Then again I don't think VP had any wise men bringing gifts of gold, and frankincense and myrrh. to him at a young age to start and finance his ministry either like Jesus.
I don't see where the scriptures you invoke demonstrate "Jesus International" as an on going financial enterprise. So Judas held on to the money bag...big deal. Was he the secretary/treasurer of this pyramid scheme?
I DO remember something about not teaching the word for filthy lucre...and Wierwille's lucre was as filthy as it gets.
so, whitedove...............what did your first post on this thread tell us??.....that after a month of prayer at ermal's behest, "the board" convinced vic to charge for pfal in order to "make up" for the gold, frankincense and myrrh that nobody ever brought to the young mog at his birth in the new knoxville "manger"??.............and, was that meeting at ray and vera's house??
when i took pfal, the cost in dollars was $40.00 even......during my time "in", the price went from $40 to $65, to $85, to $100, to $200 briefly, back down to
$100..............the "price" for the intermediate class went from $10 to $20, to $40, to $50.............the price for the advanced class was $250 when i first took it in 1972, and stayed there as far as i remember......the catch with that was how much you had to spend to get to wherever it was, room and board for the 2 weeks, time off work, etc.,...............then there were all the various "seminars".....the renewed mind, the way tree, "christian" family and sex, dealing with the adversary, witnessing and undershepherding..............summer school.....which pretty much ended in 1974............family camps...........starting in 1971, the rock of ages........then a series of advanced class "specials"...........pfal '77....hearbeat festivals.....weekends in the word..........word in business...........ac '79............
limb meetings..advances.............40th anniversary weekends (region-wide meetings in 1981-82).........living victoriously in june, 1982..........sound out '84............all major money makers in and of themselves.....above and beyond the weekly abs collections, bookstore sales, bequests, special gifts to the bot consisting of choice real estate, large cash donations as "designated gifts", private art, stamp, coin and precious metals collections, properties like emporia, rome city, gunnison, tfi in ca, lead in tinney, nm, 3 custom motorcoahes, ambassador one, acts 2, vic's personal silver lincoln continental limo, harry's cadillacs, limb homes in various states, the kipp farm and several other properties in and around new knoxville, the cultural center in new bremen,...etc., etc., etc.,................quite a collection despite no gold, frankincense and myrrh, eh??...........
so.........was this all the fruit of cramming the way tree down the throats of the faithful??.........is this what you were asking for on this thread, oakspeare??
i've lost track..........................................peace.
OH those weekends at hotels... <_< Various retreats and weekends in the word were held there.
One time (the LAST TIME) I attended a weekend in the Word, we had a 1PM check out time.
The clergy guy running the meeting let it run over...we were out of that room close to the deadline, but the line to check out was so long....
We had paid ahead of time so we handed in our key (actually left it on the counter) and were on our way. About a week or so passed and we got a letter from Mr. AnalRetentiveAboutDetails:
"Please take care of this." signed - Rev. ARAD
Apparently the hotel tried to charge us for an extra day because HE let us out late. We wrote the hotel a note informing them of the problem. We then wrote the Rev. and informed him that the problem was his since he let us out so late that there was no way to get that key turned in on time.
What I reported about Judas I got from Bo Reahard's Orientalisms class and Bishop Pillai tapes.
GADS! You people are all so busy criticizing a set of teachings that you either can't remember or never got!
YES, Judas is misunderstood. People focus on his negatives and ignore his positives. Jesus selected him as an apostle. He worked for Jesus as the treasurer of Jesus "entourage." He was sent out WOW. paired off with some other apostle and healed people and cast out spirits. He blessed people BIGTIME!
Yes, he did great wrong... but sticking to this negative side, which was worse? ...his betrayal of Jesus or his giving up and committing suicide and missing pneuma hagion on Pentecost?
The whole point to Dr teaching us "The Day Judas Hanged Himself" was to show that GOD LOVED HIM, even though he had betrayed His son. Heck, we do the same thing, spiritually equivalent, when we grieve the Holy Spirit, and God still forgives us. God forgave Judas; he was a wonderful man. ...a man of GOD! ...an APOSTLE!
God loved him. God forgave him. God offered him the new birth!
I think some of you people need to see that.
***
How would YOU try to convince someone in Uriah's family that David was still a man of God?
Think about it for a minute. It would be a good exercise in "creative" writing to come up with a plan to convince Uriah's brother that David still got revelation from God after him murdering Uriah. Try it. Then apply that thinking to Judas. Force yourself to look at the good side that HE DID HAVE.
Ask yourself... if you were one of the Twelve apostles (not Judas) and you found out that it was Judas after all, would YOU break bread with him in the Upper Room? Pray with him at the proper times? Would you be of the mindset that COULD forgive him, or would you operate in the mindset that you do when you think of VPW and only magnify to the skies all the reasons to NOT forgive him?
***
Hey!
All this money stuff I've said, all this Judas stuff I've said... we were all taught it.
The whole point to Dr teaching us "The Day Judas Hanged Himself" was to show that GOD LOVED HIM, even though he had betrayed His son.
Gee. And to think that all this time I thought he was using that to illustrate figures of speech(You know, because "hanging" really meant "disembowelment"./b]
God loved him. God forgave him. God offered him the new birth!
From the stand point of chronology, can you explain how that was possible?
Ask yourself... if you were one of the Twelve apostles (not Judas) and you found out that it was Judas after all, would YOU break bread with him in the Upper Room? Pray with him at the proper times? Would you be of the mindset that COULD forgive him, or would you operate in the mindset that you do when you think of VPW and only magnify to the skies all the reasons to NOT forgive him?
I wasn't one of the 12 apostles so what's your point?
All this money stuff I've said, all this Judas stuff I've said... we were all taught it.
Would it seem to crass of me to ask for a reference?
All us OLGs at least.
What's an OLG?
Why doesn't anyone remember it?
Perhaps you could help us to remember by providing a reference that indicates where and when this was presented.
Well, it seems to me, that while ole VP was busy amassing his wordly, kingdom of wealth on earth and claiming all the women in his earthly kingdom, he neglected the heavenly kingdom.
He blew it big time.
He was a con artist and a wolf sent to draw away the flock.
I have a feeling, his pathetic whining "I wish I were the man I know to be" was because God showed him what he had done. He blew it, no do overs, his life was over.
Giving something to someone for service rendered is one thing. Charging someone for something is another.
The waitress example is a good one to see the differences. The restaurant provides the food and pays the servers to deliver it. The customer tips the server because it's understood that part of the salary of the server and other staff is to be earned directly from the customer. Everything works hand in hand, good food and preparation is charged for accordingly, and if people maintain a 15-20 per cent tipping range the server knows what they can expect if they do a good job.
The job is a happy satisfied customer. Each customer gets a lot of the same service, but it's personalized for each person and one may need something another doesn't. If a person gets what they need and are happy they can choose to tip. But the tipping is a choice, based on each customers experience.
Most people today have never heard of Elmer Gantry, but they do see and hear how a lot "preachers and teachers" work. And if I wanted to apply a business model like a restaurant to a church I can see it working.
But a church isn't a restaurant, in theory or practice. A church's "food" is diverse but based on a few simple ingredients.
All the stuff that churches choose to add to that, the buildings to meet and everything that supports their activities are like running a restaurant. And I think most church members understand that kind of a relationship with their church. Stuff costs money, if they want it and feel the need it someone has to pay for it. Be it by donation or purchase, whatever. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, any organization chooses what they want to do and how to do it.
Likewise a minister or pastors slalary. He'd doing the work, it stands to reason that his work should be rewarded.
From the ministers standpoint, it's a "calling", where they're fulfilling a purpose that has nothing to do with money. It's both a passion and a compulsion. If they weren't being paid, they'd do it in some form or another that they'd support out of their own pocket. So, professional, part-timer, or expert hobbyist, they would do their work regardless. To them it's work that has to be done.
From the churches standpoint, what they give out of their own pockets at church isn't a "tip". It's a response to God for all that He is and does. It may go for any number of things, and those things have to be carefully considered, because the money generated through church tithes and offerings aren't tips, or donations for projects or a means to reward a minister.
First and foremost people should be taught that what and how they express themselves to God for life and liberty is personal and an expression of their own gratitude and thankfulness. Not to fill an account so a new building can go up, but simply as a way of their choosing to thank God. No more, no less. If, when and how a person does it is their own decision. Forced practice, learned behavior, peer pressure - that's all counter productive to that expression being authentic and acceptable to God. It's less a matter of amount or how and more a matter of intent.
When a minister or pastor charges for their services - meaning the services won't be rendered before the money is paid - it's wrong. Their calling isn't based on that. Minister's have to live like everyone else. To imply that Jesus charged for his teaching and presence by passing a basket is rediculous, regardless who says it. Charging is different than receving a gift and the fact that churches have that wrong is why they can go to heII in a handbasket, no matter how successful they look. It's amazing to me how hard that is for so many to see and remember, if indeed they ever learned it.
I heard the "I wish I were the man I know to be..." long before the final years. I think it was another part of the "illusion", partly to evoke (manipulate) an empathetic emotional response from the hearers, and partly to publicly cloak his behavior with a mantel of remorse.
I those words were the same as crocodile tears... so to speak.
Regarding the appropriateness of charging for "the Word" or for a minister's services: how many twig coordinators received payment for what they did? For that matter, leaders at the other levels of the "Tree"?
"He was a man of god,an apostle" Yeah so,what are we dog meat?The greater the leader the greater the servant remember?Where if any of the top hotshots of der ver were ever servants?
HaHaHa! Hey, Mike. Do you know why The Way used a horn of plenty to take up the offering? Way back when, they used to use regular collection plates. One night, someone forgot to bring some of the supplies needed for the meeting. Among those supplies were the collection plates. Uncle Harry went out into the hall looking for something he could use. He found a floral display, emptied it and used that instead. Thus, the use of the "cornacopia" for offerings was born. I heard that story straight from Dr. Wierwille's mouth and we all know that he wouldn't lie.
BTW---Do you think Jesus saw what he was doing as an "enterprise?
Mike:
here’s an ancient scrap of paper that fell somewhere behind my desk, and it documents that the Sandskrit for “bag” is “cornucopia,” wink.gif but I can’t reach it.
[seems to me that this supposed Sanskrit meaning was cobbled together years later to add
legitimacy to what was already a practice that had become NORMATIVE.
When I asked about the 'horn of plenty' of a corps grad, I didn't get "well, it's from the Sanskrit..."
I got an answer about symbology.]
Ok, here we go again.
The subject being questioned is vpw's coming up with the way tree structure, and making sure all the money
went to him and stayed there-as opposed to any staying locally like had happened before and was directly
what he was ending.
Mike claimed that Jesus did it first.
"Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?"
I challenged him to prove this claim.
He came back with verses saying that when Judas was said to hold the money for the apostles,
this meant the SAME THING.
I disagree.
I say these verses show Judas handled the money for the apostles, but say nothing of how they GOT the money.
Any of several possibilities could explain how they got the money.
However, to invoke ANY of them in the absence of a verse is what vpw called 'private interpretation.'
(And what other people might call 'pulling it out of your donkey.')
On the other hand,
Judas took the money meant for Jesus, and spent it on himself, embezzling it.
Now,
THAT sounds like the way tree in action.
=========
We're still supposedly discussing the way tree and how it was used as a substitute for the movement
of God that immediately preceeded it, and stole all its money.
Is there any chance Mike will stay on-topic, or will we see a trip to the land of
"let's change the subject and hope nobody notices?"]
No these aren't straws I'm holding.
What I reported about Judas I got from Bo Reahard's Orientalisms class and Bishop Pillai tapes.
[i thought you were joking about the Sanskrit thing. You're saying that the bs Sanskrit thing was someone else's
fault, it seems. And what did it have to do with the way tree?]
GADS! You people are all so busy criticizing a set of teachings that you either can't remember or never got!
[YOU brought it up....and there still seems no real relevance to the discussion...]
YES, Judas is misunderstood. People focus on his negatives and ignore his positives. Jesus selected him as an apostle. He worked for Jesus as the treasurer of Jesus "entourage." He was sent out WOW. paired off with some other apostle and healed people and cast out spirits. He blessed people BIGTIME!
Nobody was criticizing Judas, except me NOW saying he was an embezzler, which vpw agreed with...
Where's this all coming from?]
Yes, he did great wrong... but sticking to this negative side, which was worse? ...his betrayal of Jesus or his giving up and committing suicide and missing pneuma hagion on Pentecost?
[both were bad-but why bring up EITHER? We were discussing the way tree!]
The whole point to Dr teaching us "The Day Judas Hanged Himself" was to show that GOD LOVED HIM, even though he had betrayed His son. Heck, we do the same thing, spiritually equivalent, when we grieve the Holy Spirit, and God still forgives us. God forgave Judas; he was a wonderful man. ...a man of GOD! ...an APOSTLE!
God loved him. God forgave him. God offered him the new birth!
I think some of you people need to see that.
[i think some of you people need to remember that posting on a topic should in some way REFLECT THE TOPIC,
and not form some sermon that had nothing to do with it and nobody disagreed with in the first place....]
***
How would YOU try to convince someone in Uriah's family that David was still a man of God?
Think about it for a minute. It would be a good exercise in "creative" writing to come up with a plan to convince Uriah's brother that David still got revelation from God after him murdering Uriah. Try it. Then apply that thinking to Judas. Force yourself to look at the good side that HE DID HAVE.
[Now we're on to a DIFFERENT "Weapon of Mass Distraction", Mike's pretend doctrine that everyone knew that
David killed Uriah-which was disproven at least twice, six months apart, and both by me.]
Ask yourself... if you were one of the Twelve apostles (not Judas) and you found out that it was Judas after all, would YOU break bread with him in the Upper Room? Pray with him at the proper times? Would you be of the mindset that COULD forgive him, or would you operate in the mindset that you do when you think of VPW and only magnify to the skies all the reasons to NOT forgive him?
***
Hey!
All this money stuff I've said, all this Judas stuff I've said... we were all taught it.
All us OLGs at least.
Why doesn't anyone remember it?
You've said the BS Uriah-David stuff before. Judas we already knew about-and weren't disagreeing with,
and it had NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING.
What I reported about Judas I got from Bo Reahard's Orientalisms class and Bishop Pillai tapes.
Why doesn't anyone remember it?
Sorry...not impressed. From what I've heard, Pillai was considered a whacko by most serious Christian scholars and, as much as Bo may have been a nice guy, I wouldn't hang my hat on his waybrained perspective either.
...and you've gone off on a tangent. The original point was in equating the fact that Judas got to hold onto to the bag on money and comparing that to the dishonest pyramid scheme by the way international and their prime motive of bilking people.
Jesus sought to do his Father's will...VP Cornfield sought to satiate his own lusts for power, sex and money...see the difference now?
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waysider
The very fact that it bounced up and down so drastically seems to suggest to me that the cost of the class was not directly linked to the cost of providing it. It doesn't make any sense that a business with an eye on production costs would charge such varied rates unless the profit margin was enormous. Yet, it's obvious from what has been posted here that they did exactly that .
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now I see
This thread brings to mind the House of Acts and the Living Room that was run by the hippy's from the Haight in San Francisco. What they did there was very effective, I don't think they asked for money either, and they were the starting point that the vicster drew from.
I'm not sure whether they were corrupted once they hooked up with vp's outfit, do any of you oldsters recall whether the Way East or West advocated payments of money in the early days?
Edited by but now I seeLink to comment
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doojable
Three words:
"Not For Profit"
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Mike
I think the idea of non-profit means something a little different.
People can still get paid reasonable salaries (meaning pretty high) in a non-profit corporation, but the extra money left over after all expenses and salaries are paid must then go back into corporate activities, and not into share holders pockets. That’s a pretty technical idea, and not a general financial principle solely governed by the prefix “non.”
***
Didn’t anyone here take the Orientalisms class?
Where did Judas get the money to pay for the property where he was ultimately committed suicide?
Was it from “the thirty pieces of silver” that he got for betraying Jesus? Think logically, and watch your times.
John 12:1 ¶Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
There’s an ancient scrap of paper that fell somewhere behind my desk, and it documents that the Sandskrit for “bag” is “cornucopia,” ;) but I can’t reach it.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
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doojable
I know that "non-profit" means that the employees still get paid. If a non-profit corporation doesn't spend a certain amount of it's "profits" they lose their status and must again pay taxes.
Sooo.. what you're saying then is that the financial holdings of TWI that are in offshore accounts - was stolen? Judas seems an appropriate name to summon up.
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waysider
Sounds to me like you are "reaching for it" right now, my friend.
So let me see if I understand you correctly.
Are you saying Judas was really part of a non-profit endeavor and has been misunderstood all these years?
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WhiteDove
Then again I don't think VP had any wise men bringing gifts of gold, and frankincense and myrrh. to him at a young age to start and finance his ministry either like Jesus.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I don't see where the scriptures you invoke demonstrate "Jesus International" as an on going financial enterprise. So Judas held on to the money bag...big deal. Was he the secretary/treasurer of this pyramid scheme?
I DO remember something about not teaching the word for filthy lucre...and Wierwille's lucre was as filthy as it gets.
Mike...You're grasping at straws.
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DontWorryBeHappy
so, whitedove...............what did your first post on this thread tell us??.....that after a month of prayer at ermal's behest, "the board" convinced vic to charge for pfal in order to "make up" for the gold, frankincense and myrrh that nobody ever brought to the young mog at his birth in the new knoxville "manger"??.............and, was that meeting at ray and vera's house??
when i took pfal, the cost in dollars was $40.00 even......during my time "in", the price went from $40 to $65, to $85, to $100, to $200 briefly, back down to
$100..............the "price" for the intermediate class went from $10 to $20, to $40, to $50.............the price for the advanced class was $250 when i first took it in 1972, and stayed there as far as i remember......the catch with that was how much you had to spend to get to wherever it was, room and board for the 2 weeks, time off work, etc.,...............then there were all the various "seminars".....the renewed mind, the way tree, "christian" family and sex, dealing with the adversary, witnessing and undershepherding..............summer school.....which pretty much ended in 1974............family camps...........starting in 1971, the rock of ages........then a series of advanced class "specials"...........pfal '77....hearbeat festivals.....weekends in the word..........word in business...........ac '79............
limb meetings..advances.............40th anniversary weekends (region-wide meetings in 1981-82).........living victoriously in june, 1982..........sound out '84............all major money makers in and of themselves.....above and beyond the weekly abs collections, bookstore sales, bequests, special gifts to the bot consisting of choice real estate, large cash donations as "designated gifts", private art, stamp, coin and precious metals collections, properties like emporia, rome city, gunnison, tfi in ca, lead in tinney, nm, 3 custom motorcoahes, ambassador one, acts 2, vic's personal silver lincoln continental limo, harry's cadillacs, limb homes in various states, the kipp farm and several other properties in and around new knoxville, the cultural center in new bremen,...etc., etc., etc.,................quite a collection despite no gold, frankincense and myrrh, eh??...........
so.........was this all the fruit of cramming the way tree down the throats of the faithful??.........is this what you were asking for on this thread, oakspeare??
i've lost track..........................................peace.
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doojable
OH those weekends at hotels... <_< Various retreats and weekends in the word were held there.
One time (the LAST TIME) I attended a weekend in the Word, we had a 1PM check out time.
The clergy guy running the meeting let it run over...we were out of that room close to the deadline, but the line to check out was so long....
We had paid ahead of time so we handed in our key (actually left it on the counter) and were on our way. About a week or so passed and we got a letter from Mr. AnalRetentiveAboutDetails:
"Please take care of this." signed - Rev. ARAD
Apparently the hotel tried to charge us for an extra day because HE let us out late. We wrote the hotel a note informing them of the problem. We then wrote the Rev. and informed him that the problem was his since he let us out so late that there was no way to get that key turned in on time.
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waysider
Gold, frankincense and myrrh---- plus a fleet of killer motorcycles(a vintage Indian amongst them) as well as some pretty sweet cars too.
Got to ride in that old red Pontiac once.
Can't remember. Was it a Bonneville or a Catalina?
Sweet ride, none the less.
JP was in the driver's seat.
We both had a couple shots of Wild Turkey and off we went.
Ray and Vera.
Yup
I think it was about this time of year that they had their annual pig roast.
No small event!!
My folks still speak fondly of those "get togethers".
Yeah, old Vp sure lived the life of a pauper.
But, hey---- not to worry.
Didn't he once say he was born into wealth or did I just imagine that?
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Mike
No these aren't straws I'm holding.
What I reported about Judas I got from Bo Reahard's Orientalisms class and Bishop Pillai tapes.
GADS! You people are all so busy criticizing a set of teachings that you either can't remember or never got!
YES, Judas is misunderstood. People focus on his negatives and ignore his positives. Jesus selected him as an apostle. He worked for Jesus as the treasurer of Jesus "entourage." He was sent out WOW. paired off with some other apostle and healed people and cast out spirits. He blessed people BIGTIME!
Yes, he did great wrong... but sticking to this negative side, which was worse? ...his betrayal of Jesus or his giving up and committing suicide and missing pneuma hagion on Pentecost?
The whole point to Dr teaching us "The Day Judas Hanged Himself" was to show that GOD LOVED HIM, even though he had betrayed His son. Heck, we do the same thing, spiritually equivalent, when we grieve the Holy Spirit, and God still forgives us. God forgave Judas; he was a wonderful man. ...a man of GOD! ...an APOSTLE!
God loved him. God forgave him. God offered him the new birth!
I think some of you people need to see that.
***
How would YOU try to convince someone in Uriah's family that David was still a man of God?
Think about it for a minute. It would be a good exercise in "creative" writing to come up with a plan to convince Uriah's brother that David still got revelation from God after him murdering Uriah. Try it. Then apply that thinking to Judas. Force yourself to look at the good side that HE DID HAVE.
Ask yourself... if you were one of the Twelve apostles (not Judas) and you found out that it was Judas after all, would YOU break bread with him in the Upper Room? Pray with him at the proper times? Would you be of the mindset that COULD forgive him, or would you operate in the mindset that you do when you think of VPW and only magnify to the skies all the reasons to NOT forgive him?
***
Hey!
All this money stuff I've said, all this Judas stuff I've said... we were all taught it.
All us OLGs at least.
Why doesn't anyone remember it?
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Oakspear
Some of us remember stuff that we no longer believe.
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waysider
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Sunesis
Well, it seems to me, that while ole VP was busy amassing his wordly, kingdom of wealth on earth and claiming all the women in his earthly kingdom, he neglected the heavenly kingdom.
He blew it big time.
He was a con artist and a wolf sent to draw away the flock.
I have a feeling, his pathetic whining "I wish I were the man I know to be" was because God showed him what he had done. He blew it, no do overs, his life was over.
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waysider
Hey!
You have to hand it to the old guy.
He sure knew how to keep his needs and wants parallel.
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socks
Giving something to someone for service rendered is one thing. Charging someone for something is another.
The waitress example is a good one to see the differences. The restaurant provides the food and pays the servers to deliver it. The customer tips the server because it's understood that part of the salary of the server and other staff is to be earned directly from the customer. Everything works hand in hand, good food and preparation is charged for accordingly, and if people maintain a 15-20 per cent tipping range the server knows what they can expect if they do a good job.
The job is a happy satisfied customer. Each customer gets a lot of the same service, but it's personalized for each person and one may need something another doesn't. If a person gets what they need and are happy they can choose to tip. But the tipping is a choice, based on each customers experience.
Most people today have never heard of Elmer Gantry, but they do see and hear how a lot "preachers and teachers" work. And if I wanted to apply a business model like a restaurant to a church I can see it working.
But a church isn't a restaurant, in theory or practice. A church's "food" is diverse but based on a few simple ingredients.
All the stuff that churches choose to add to that, the buildings to meet and everything that supports their activities are like running a restaurant. And I think most church members understand that kind of a relationship with their church. Stuff costs money, if they want it and feel the need it someone has to pay for it. Be it by donation or purchase, whatever. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, any organization chooses what they want to do and how to do it.
Likewise a minister or pastors slalary. He'd doing the work, it stands to reason that his work should be rewarded.
From the ministers standpoint, it's a "calling", where they're fulfilling a purpose that has nothing to do with money. It's both a passion and a compulsion. If they weren't being paid, they'd do it in some form or another that they'd support out of their own pocket. So, professional, part-timer, or expert hobbyist, they would do their work regardless. To them it's work that has to be done.
From the churches standpoint, what they give out of their own pockets at church isn't a "tip". It's a response to God for all that He is and does. It may go for any number of things, and those things have to be carefully considered, because the money generated through church tithes and offerings aren't tips, or donations for projects or a means to reward a minister.
First and foremost people should be taught that what and how they express themselves to God for life and liberty is personal and an expression of their own gratitude and thankfulness. Not to fill an account so a new building can go up, but simply as a way of their choosing to thank God. No more, no less. If, when and how a person does it is their own decision. Forced practice, learned behavior, peer pressure - that's all counter productive to that expression being authentic and acceptable to God. It's less a matter of amount or how and more a matter of intent.
When a minister or pastor charges for their services - meaning the services won't be rendered before the money is paid - it's wrong. Their calling isn't based on that. Minister's have to live like everyone else. To imply that Jesus charged for his teaching and presence by passing a basket is rediculous, regardless who says it. Charging is different than receving a gift and the fact that churches have that wrong is why they can go to heII in a handbasket, no matter how successful they look. It's amazing to me how hard that is for so many to see and remember, if indeed they ever learned it.
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doojable
I was never offered that class. It wasn't even offered when I was in rez.
THAT might tell you something. It wasn't important enough to run on the field on a regular basis.
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now I see
I heard the "I wish I were the man I know to be..." long before the final years. I think it was another part of the "illusion", partly to evoke (manipulate) an empathetic emotional response from the hearers, and partly to publicly cloak his behavior with a mantel of remorse.
I those words were the same as crocodile tears... so to speak.
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Oakspear
Regarding the appropriateness of charging for "the Word" or for a minister's services: how many twig coordinators received payment for what they did? For that matter, leaders at the other levels of the "Tree"?
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Out There
The title of this thread is " The Way Tree and when did it develop". We should have another thread "The Way Tree and Who Chopped It Down?"
My chainsaw is available
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frank123lol
"He was a man of god,an apostle" Yeah so,what are we dog meat?The greater the leader the greater the servant remember?Where if any of the top hotshots of der ver were ever servants?
They took,took,took,gain is godliness?
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WordWolf
waysider:
Mike:[seems to me that this supposed Sanskrit meaning was cobbled together years later to add
legitimacy to what was already a practice that had become NORMATIVE.
When I asked about the 'horn of plenty' of a corps grad, I didn't get "well, it's from the Sanskrit..."
I got an answer about symbology.]
Ok, here we go again.
The subject being questioned is vpw's coming up with the way tree structure, and making sure all the money
went to him and stayed there-as opposed to any staying locally like had happened before and was directly
what he was ending.
Mike claimed that Jesus did it first.
"Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?"
I challenged him to prove this claim.
He came back with verses saying that when Judas was said to hold the money for the apostles,
this meant the SAME THING.
I disagree.
I say these verses show Judas handled the money for the apostles, but say nothing of how they GOT the money.
Any of several possibilities could explain how they got the money.
However, to invoke ANY of them in the absence of a verse is what vpw called 'private interpretation.'
(And what other people might call 'pulling it out of your donkey.')
On the other hand,
Judas took the money meant for Jesus, and spent it on himself, embezzling it.
Now,
THAT sounds like the way tree in action.
=========
We're still supposedly discussing the way tree and how it was used as a substitute for the movement
of God that immediately preceeded it, and stole all its money.
Is there any chance Mike will stay on-topic, or will we see a trip to the land of
"let's change the subject and hope nobody notices?"]
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GrouchoMarxJr
Sorry...not impressed. From what I've heard, Pillai was considered a whacko by most serious Christian scholars and, as much as Bo may have been a nice guy, I wouldn't hang my hat on his waybrained perspective either.
...and you've gone off on a tangent. The original point was in equating the fact that Judas got to hold onto to the bag on money and comparing that to the dishonest pyramid scheme by the way international and their prime motive of bilking people.
Jesus sought to do his Father's will...VP Cornfield sought to satiate his own lusts for power, sex and money...see the difference now?
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