Oakspear, you wrote: “Early on the PFAL class was taught by people other than VPW. Putting it on film and controling it through approved twigs (rather than selling it) gave vpw a means of control and was a tool to centralize TWI also.”
That wasn't me. I didn't say that.
Then johnj wrote: “The only people I ever saw that Wierwille admitted taught PFAL other than him was Mal George and Donnie Fugit.”
That was my quote
Well, if my flimsy memory is right, Dave Anderson was also included, possibly Walter, although I think he was too young then, and I think there was a woman who did it too. Donnie Fugit MAY have taught a live class, but I tend to think not. He came in a little late in the process and he was very young then too.
But, johnj, that’s an odd way to put it: “admitted”?
Dr didn’t “admit” to it; it was common knowledge. To use the word “admit” is to imply wrong-doing where there was none. Dr wanted to see his students rise to be “...able to teach others also” as the scripture goes. Early on he implemented the plan, but the people were not yet ready for it.
To use the word "admitted" looks like an to attempt to re-write history.
I'm just going by what I remember, which may be incorrect.
I used the word "admitted" for two reasons 1)I wouldn't have expected him to provide an in-depth list of anyone who he had allowed to teach the class live and 2)He had a habit of acting like people who left his organization didn't exist
I like to augment my memory on these matters of ministry history with the hard record, the tape and print record.
I have a tape, a Corps tape, from 1972 where Dr describes the Way Tree revelation. He calls it that specifically, a revelation. It’s one of the 90 “Thus saith the Lord” statements I’ve found of his that so many people here insisted he never made.
On this tape he says that God told him to apply a plan that, when you look at it, is generally a lot like the one Moses adopted from Jethro's suggestion. This Jethro plan was originally designed for an ancient people, where precious few had spirit upon them. My impression is that Dr had to have God tell him it had to go that way, and that otherwise Dr would NOT have gone that way.
Dr’s original plan with PFAL was to have others teach it after hearing it from him.
If it's your impression - then it's your opinion - so in my book it's about as good as my opinion. That means it's not revelation at all - but you seeing revelation where there is none.
Oakspear, you wrote: “Early on the PFAL class was taught by people other than VPW. Putting it on film and controling it through approved twigs (rather than selling it) gave vpw a means of control and was a tool to centralize TWI also.”
I disagree. I think you have it backwards. Dr’s original desire was to NOT have it centrally controlled. He was actively spreading out the responsibility of teaching the class in the pre-film class days AS A DEPARTURE FROM having central control all to himself.
Why was it changed back to central control? The tape provided me with a clue, and so did the lady I worked with at HQ who was very active in the early 50’s. She told me that IT WAS THE PEOPLE who wanted Dr to teach it all the time. Dr wanted to go with a plan like the Israel had with prophets spiritually rising up whenever there was a need for governance, BUT THE PEOPLE wanted a king. (I think this is also why Craig was made king.)
From what she said it was a lot like the difference between an audio cassette class and a full video class. We people on the field had a strong preference for the video classes and did all we could to wrangle them. Ditto for the early live PFAL classes. There was a lot of maneuvering involved in each class to get Dr to teach it himself.
The people wanted the head honcho to visit them and teach, and if one of his assistants showed up they were disappointed. They were immature spiritually, and so were the assistant teachers Dr had at his disposal. It was the people’s immaturity that demanded a stronger teacher.
VP was very good at getting what he wanted. No matter what he "wished" in public - if he wanted something he found a way to get it. If he was so darn sure that multiple teachers were necessary, he would have announced on a SNS tape that he wasn't going to teach the class himself anymore, with the exception of large scale classes like PFAL '77.
Besides, as a supposed gift minister (as he claimed to be) he was supposed to be helping believers mature, not keep them in the infant stages. Just compare that attitude to Paul with the Corinthians.
Then johnj wrote: “The only people I ever saw that Wierwille admitted taught PFAL other than him was Mal George and Donnie Fugit.”
Well, if my flimsy memory is right, Dave Anderson was also included, possibly Walter, although I think he was too young then, and I think there was a woman who did it too. Donnie Fugit MAY have taught a live class, but I tend to think not. He came in a little late in the process and he was very young then too.
But, johnj, that’s an odd way to put it: “admitted”?
Dr didn’t “admit” to it; it was common knowledge. To use the word “admit” is to imply wrong-doing where there was none. Dr wanted to see his students rise to be “...able to teach others also” as the scripture goes. Early on he implemented the plan, but the people were not yet ready for it.
To use the word "admitted" looks like an to attempt to re-write history.
Once again, your reading into this what your "impression" is. I'll wait for Johnj to answer for himself, but I'd venture that he is using the word more like when "evidence is admitted" - hence, "entered in or into. - ie - allowed."
This is why I constantly talk of mastering PFAL: because we didn’t and we STILL don’t know God and His Word enough to rise up above all this crap. We need to get sharper about what we were taught and about the actual historical context in which it happened... not the hysterical and “bad experience” distorted memories. In other words, the immaturity of the people was CONSTANTLY what slowed things down and eventually even bogged them down altogether, both then and now.
The early plan Dr had was to have other ministers rise up and teach the class. It didn’t work, so he tried an new one: the Zero-ith Corps. That didn’t work, so he kept the film class in play and then started the First Corps with the goal of producing leaders who could run the kind of twigs that were self-sustaining and self-propagating and self-other-things... in other words, a NON-CENTRALLY controlled ministry.
Again, what vpw wanted, he got or took... There is no hate here. It's simple observation.
On this tape Dr fields a few questions from the Corps in the room. One asked about the centralized abundant sharing. Dr pointed (just like I did) to the immaturity of the people, and that as a temporary measure, the abs would all go to HQ.
OH so now we're "pulling a Saul" are we? Blaming the people for his (vp's) lack? Sorry, but I don't buy it.
Shortly after that he started a ten year campaign to gradually wean people off the KJV and onto the far better written materials of the collaterals. As more was put into print the urging to master the collaterals increased. HOWEVER we all refused to do this the more time we had into the Word. The more facts we got under our belts, the less we went to the collaterals, and our immaturity lingered. So did the centralized money flow.
So he decided that his books were more complete than the scriptures? I don't even believe that vpw believed that.
I saw this financial immaturity first hand in 1972. My branch leader bought a great big flashy black Cadillac boat with the Branch abs and it severely embarrassed a lot of people. It was a problem. From what I heard things like that were happening all over. The centralized control was implemented to hold things together until we would finally get meek and return to the collaterals to get the message correct.
Well - I'd say that vpw just learned from those branch leaders...
I NEVER saw money flow from HQ back to the branches or twigs... not on a grand scale. It was always a matter of vpw's personal agenda.
What's interesting is that the very inception of twi was a scam. It was always about providing a legal structure to protect and accumulate assets. Wierwille was an extremely immoral man whose "relationship" with God was a phoney as the snow on the gas pumps. He was a con man...and then there's people like Mike who still swears by the snake oil. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the cult apologists...oh well, to each his own.
...and I remember very well sitting through the "Way tree" seminar. I can still hear that sniveling Johnny Townsend, doing his best VP imitation, telling us all about the Yak family...about how they all form a circle around the young ones to protect them...what he forgot to tell us was that eventually the Yaks turn on their own and put the horns to them...
At the December 7th and 8th 1958 meeting at New Lyme Ohio regarding the Way Biblical Seminary two issues were discussed that pertained to PFAL
Quote
1. The Fee - Some of the members of the Board recommended charging a registration fee for the class plus a class fee.
2. How Dr. Wierwille could best use his time - Some members felt that Dr. Wierwille was spending too much time traveling and teaching PFAL classes and that it might be a better usage of his time if he stayed at South Washington Street and got some of his writings into printed form as well as worked on new material. Ermal Owens suggested that the Board should have a meeting the following month so that some of these matters could be decided after everyone had time to think and pray about them.
At the December 7th and 8th 1958 meeting at New Lyme Ohio regarding the Way Biblical Seminary two issues were discussed that pertained to PFAL
Quote
1. The Fee - Some of the members of the Board recommended charging a registration fee for the class plus a class fee.
2. How Dr. Wierwille could best use his time - Some members felt that Dr. Wierwille was spending too much time traveling and teaching PFAL classes and that it might be a better usage of his time if he stayed at South Washington Street and got some of his writings into printed form as well as worked on new material. Ermal Owens suggested that the Board should have a meeting the following month so that some of these matters could be decided after everyone had time to think and pray about them.
Hi Whitedove!................interesting post!
this december, 1958 meeting you are referring to here............was that at ray and vera's house?...............i assume that "the board" referred to in the notes, is the board of directors, not the board of trustees.......is that correct?
since this meeting took place in december, 1958....and, pfal was not filmed until late 1967,........again, i assume that it is referring to the "live teaching" versions of pfal extant at that time,...........is that correct?
and, lastly,.......what point are you making to us by posting these notes from that 1958 meeting on this "way tree" thread?......would you be kind enough to elaborate a little for us on that?..............................thanks!.....................................peace.
In the discussion of other people who taught PFAL (I wasn't the one who used the word "admitted") one of my pooints may have been overlooked. TWI did not sell it and distributed it only through approved twigs. This by nature limits its distribution. If he really wanted to get the word out, he would sell (or give) it to anyone, and would not charge a large fee (it was $100 for a time, perhaps even $200 briefly).
One product of the twig limitation was that donations went to TWI/VPW and did not stay at the local level. I have a hard time imaging that VPW did not have the idea in mind that it would be great if all the after-class donations went to him. His distributuion method was in itself centralization
In the discussion of other people who taught PFAL (I wasn't the one who used the word "admitted") one of my pooints may have been overlooked. TWI did not sell it and distributed it only through approved twigs. This by nature limits its distribution. If he really wanted to get the word out, he would sell (or give) it to anyone, and would not charge a large fee (it was $100 for a time, perhaps even $200 briefly).
Mike made a mistake - Oakspear used that term.
I heard that in certain areas the price of the class fluctuated to as high as $500.00 and as low as $50.00 (that was a "special" price.)
I recall at the time, asking where the money goes. 7 people at $85 per person is $595. It seemed like a lot of money to sit and listen to a bunch of tapes (that were sent back) and receive a few paper back books...(nobody running the class got paid)...
...I was told that twi made no money on their classes!...simple math showed they were lying...and THAT was the first "sign" that I ignored when I first got involved.
...and for those of you who still embrace pfal as the greatest thing since Jesus walked the earth, I challenge you to show in the bible where teaching and preaching God's word was a money making enterprise...
...and for those of you who still embrace pfal as the greatest thing since Jesus walked the earth, I challenge you to show in the bible where teaching and preaching God's word was a money making enterprise...
Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?
May I challenge you to show from scripture that teaching and preaching God's Word was supposed to ALWAYS be a freebee?
That's something OUR CULTURE teaches with a vengeance but I don't see that same attitude in Eastern culture. Ministering is just as much (and much more) an honorable service to perform for someone as window cleaning or waitressing, so WHY not expect cash for it? In Eastern culture people know that they owe MORE for receiving the teaching and preaching God's Word than for receiving food, clothing, or entertainment.
I observe business as a hobby. I see how the SIZES of the tips for people like waitresses are a voluntary thing, but it's still considered dishonorable to stiff them after the have worked for us in service. Not so in our culture for the service of teaching and preaching God's Word in our broken culture, severely broken on this account. Why should a preacher not be able to charge for his services, but it’s fine for a plumber or a tree trimmer to do so?
In our culture if a preacher delivers good feeling to a churchgoer it’s not considered stealing to walk out of the church “tipping” that preacher nothing or for contributing far less than what the preacher’s service provided. We will willingly pay $100 for one hour’s good feeling on a psychiatrist’s couch or for many other kinds of counseling, but not for preaching? It’s our culture that’s broken on this matter of insisting that teaching and preaching God's Word MUST be always free of monetary charge. We should be willing to pay MORE for that.
As an educational exercise, might some dutiful poster search out HOW it is that our culture has developed such a screwy hang-up like this? I might throw out one possibility: Elmer Gantry.
***
Or course, someone will quote “freely you have received, freely you should give.”
But is that enough to form a whole theology that money should not be charged for a formal class that required equipment and supplies to run, plus a substantial initial investment in film and processing and regional staff to coordinate it all?
I never saw, nor even heard of, a twig fellowship that charged an admission price. Many things were freely given to us back then and we freely gave them to strangers as we freely opened up our houses to them.
***
It’s my opinion that one of the reasons to charge for the class was to GET RID of people who were there mainly for social reasons and who did not have the mental flexibility to jump over the cultural hoop which insists that all teaching and preaching God's Word be given away for nothing.
I think the class was a bargain for those of us who wanted God more than money.
Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?
May I challenge you to show from scripture that teaching and preaching God's Word was supposed to ALWAYS be a freebee?
you may challenge me to that....
Right after YOU show from Scripture (The Bible) that Jesus "had a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise
and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes."
(Or EQUIVALENT, of course- if you can find it but it's called something else or shaped differently,
of course, that would still count.
You first....
That's something OUR CULTURE teaches with a vengeance but I don't see that same attitude in Eastern culture. Ministering is just as much (and much more) an honorable service to perform for someone as window cleaning or waitressing, so WHY not expect cash for it? In Eastern culture people know that they owe MORE for receiving the teaching and preaching God's Word than for receiving food, clothing, or entertainment.
Your source on "Eastern culture" being?
I observe business as a hobby. I see how the SIZES of the tips for people like waitresses are a voluntary thing, but it's still considered dishonorable to stiff them after the have worked for us in service. Not so in our culture for the service of teaching and preaching God's Word in our broken culture, severely broken on this account. Why should a preacher not be able to charge for his services, but it’s fine for a plumber or a tree trimmer to do so?
A plumber gets charged by the job- or works for a company that does, and receives a fixed salary from them
for doing so.
A waiter or waitress' salary is minimal. They work with the expectation that they will receive tips for good work.
Therefore, as most people would consider it, to skip tipping them is to deprive them of part of their livelihood.
(Don't like it? There's places where the tip is automatically deducted and assigned to them, and you
don't have to calculate.
Still don't like it? Eat at Mc Donald's. No tipping expected.)
A minister can receive a salary, and that's fine with me. His church either gets a tithe, or survives on donations.
One or the other is EXPECTED in our society.
Expecting a "tip" for preaching is a lot like expecting a "tip" for voting in the Senate.
We call that a "bribe."
Both men already GOT a salary-a living wage they can support their family on.
Preaching is part of the JOB of a minister- a basic expectation for all ministers unless specified otherwise.
Voting on bills is EXPECTED for Congressmen.
In our culture if a preacher delivers good feeling to a churchgoer it’s not considered stealing to walk out of the church “tipping” that preacher nothing or for contributing far less than what the preacher’s service provided. We will willingly pay $100 for one hour’s good feeling on a psychiatrist’s couch or for many other kinds of counseling, but not for preaching?
Psychiatrists get paid by the hour-and don't draw a salary otherwise when doing so.
I have no doubt that you believe vpw's dismissal of Psychiatrists as "give a good feeling"
is a fair and accurate summary of their job. However, it's woefully ignorant.
A Psychiatrist must go to MEDICAL SCHOOL, and is a MEDICAL DOCTOR.
That's why they have "MD" at the end of their name.
A Psychiatrist is trained in both medicine and in Psychology, which is years of training all by itself.
You either spoke on the field of someone who spent 4 years in college, 2 years or more in Medical School,
and then 2 or more years in internship before BEGININNG their career lacking a basic understanding of their
training,
or knew all that and dismissed most of a decade's work casually.
A Psychiatrist doesn't just sit on a couch so you can get a good feeling.
Both they and LICENSED Psychologists spend years in training so they can offer more than that.
If sitting there and making appreciative noises was all it took, every Theater major in college would be
able to get a Psychology license upon graduation.
"COUNSELING" contains the word "counsel". That means they're supposed to be offering COUNSEL.
(and every PARTLY-competent one DOES).
I'm not going to try and summarize what type of counsel they offer.
In the case of a Psychiatrist, however, it's often for more severe cases, since a Psychiatrist is called in
when someone requires the use of Psychatric medication to function properly in society.
(That's so people don't go into violent fits in public, or hallucinations, or suicidal depressions, or any
of dozens of other things.) They have to monitor the effects of the medication, the non-effects,
the other symptoms not affected by medication, drug interactions with everything from what's perscribed
to the advil they took for a headache last night, all while still listening and offering professional counsel.
THAT's why we pay a Psychiatrist by the hour.
It’s our culture that’s broken on this matter of insisting that teaching and preaching God's Word MUST be always free of monetary charge. We should be willing to pay MORE for that.
As an educational exercise, might some dutiful poster search out HOW it is that our culture has developed such a screwy hang-up like this? I might throw out one possibility: Elmer Gantry.
It's our poster's expectation that this is what's broken.
Real ministers make a decent salary.
And they don't do it for the money.
Or for cars, motorcycles, planes, or free labour at their home.
And they cover their shopping trips from their salary, not from the collection plate the church gets.
If a supposed minister doesn't find that sufficient, he is in the WRONG line of work, for he has
let a love of money interfere with his love for God and God's people.
A minister making enough to satisfy all his needs and his family's needs
(food, home, transportation, education for kids, clothing, basic entertainment and so on)
I recall at the time, asking where the money goes. 7 people at $85 per person is $595. It seemed like a lot of money to sit and listen to a bunch of tapes (that were sent back) and receive a few paper back books...(nobody running the class got paid)...
...I was told that twi made no money on their classes!...simple math showed they were lying...and THAT was the first "sign" that I ignored when I first got involved.
...and for those of you who still embrace pfal as the greatest thing since Jesus walked the earth, I challenge you to show in the bible where teaching and preaching God's word was a money making enterprise...
As I remember it went from $65.00 t0 $85.00 somewhere in 74-75 I paid $65.00 which was a sizable amount of money in those days for me. But when you consider that you got five hardbound books and a syllabus in binder and a one year subscription to The Way Magazine. In addition to the taped material thats pretty cheap. I don't think at that point they made that much off each student as the books got cheaper or nonexistent and the price went up they did better on the profit end I'm sure. Either way I think it was money well spent in terms of the benifit to me over the years. Despite the way things turned out and the fact that everything was not as beneficial as I once maybe thought it was today, I still feel it was a bargin.
As I remember it went from $65.00 t0 $85.00 somewhere in 74-75 I paid $65.00 which was a sizable amount of money in those days for me. But when you consider that you got five hardbound books and a syllabus in binder and a one year subscription to The Way Magazine. In addition to the taped material thats pretty cheap. I don't think at that point they made that much off each student as the books got cheaper or nonexistent and the price went up they did better on the profit end I'm sure. Either way I think it was money well spent in terms of the benifit to me over the years. Despite the way things turned out and the fact that everything was not as beneficial as I once maybe thought it was today, I still feel it was a bargin.
$65 for 5 hardbound books, syllabus, 1-year subscription.
The books were cheap and easy to produce (so long as you have access to the reproductive facilities),
and these were not big textbooks-they were little novel-sized things, with not much print on a page.
The largest have pages with 1/2 the text of a standard textbook on it, with fewer pages than in a standard textbook.
The expenses were all covered in-house-
-The supposed author was not needed to be paid separate royalties
-No license fees were ever paid for the material from other sources
-the printing's stages were ALL done in-house and thus only cost (once the machines are paid for) were a factor
-distribution was handled FREE by us locals
-limited amounts of tapes were produced, and used over, and over, and over, showing signs of wear no normal
tapes would show
The costs to print up all the materials for a $65 class were less than $20.
The RETAIL PRICE at a bookstore for the $65 class would be under $40 in the year you took it,
and that's adding PROFIT of various kinds-for distributor, seller, author, publishing company.
They made a considerable amount per class, if 6 people were paying students per class.
====
Mind you, whether or not you feel like you got something useful for the money is a separate issue-
they were WELL-PAID for what you received, whether or not you got a benefit.
(And good for you-you feel you benefitted from it.
$65 for 5 hardbound books, syllabus, 1-year subscription.
The books were cheap and easy to produce (so long as you have access to the reproductive facilities),
and these were not big textbooks-they were little novel-sized things, with not much print on a page.
The largest have pages with 1/2 the text of a standard textbook on it, with fewer pages than in a standard textbook.
The expenses were all covered in-house-
-The supposed author was not needed to be paid separate royalties
-No license fees were ever paid for the material from other sources
-the printing's stages were ALL done in-house and thus only cost (once the machines are paid for) were a factor
-distribution was handled FREE by us locals
-limited amounts of tapes were produced, and used over, and over, and over, showing signs of wear no normal
tapes would show
The costs to print up all the materials for a $65 class were less than $20.
The RETAIL PRICE at a bookstore for the $65 class would be under $40 in the year you took it,
and that's adding PROFIT of various kinds-for distributor, seller, author, publishing company.
They made a considerable amount per class, if 6 people were paying students per class.
====
Mind you, whether or not you feel like you got something useful for the money is a separate issue-
they were WELL-PAID for what you received, whether or not you got a benefit.
(And good for you-you feel you benefitted from it.
Me, I feel I got some benefit as well.)
I have no disagreement that there are two issues here one being did they make a profit?, and the other being was it beneficial to the individual? Others expressed their obvious dissatisfaction with the product I expressed my satisfaction, each to their own. I'm not sure how you arrived at your cost estimate on producing the materials but I'd think it was higher than $20.00, but I have better things to do today than argue over what it may have cost or not some thirty years ago. That said as I acknowledged they did make some sort of money on the class, I don't see the profit as all that much, you may. Despite the fact that the books as you pointed out were not printed shall we say at "spare no expense on materials" I still have my original set and they are in fine shape, for the use they have had they held up far better than many books that I have purchased since then for a far greater cost.
Perspectives change over time on the worth of products a fact of life I just wonder what the point is of making such a big deal of it . I rarely see people whining about the cost of the Miami Vice white suit they bought in the 80's and how it is worthless today or how about that expensive rubik's cube that is worth ? today. As for me my books have held up well and served me well for the most part, probably among the better purchases in life as far as long term quality. Now the Beta machine that's a different story.........
Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?
HaHaHa! Hey, Mike. Do you know why The Way used a horn of plenty to take up the offering? Way back when, they used to use regular collection plates. One night, someone forgot to bring some of the supplies needed for the meeting. Among those supplies were the collection plates. Uncle Harry went out into the hall looking for something he could use. He found a floral display, emptied it and used that instead. Thus, the use of the "cornacopia" for offerings was born. I heard that story straight from Dr. Wierwille's mouth and we all know that he wouldn't lie.
BTW---Do you think Jesus saw what he was doing as an "enterprise?
I never saw, nor even heard of, a twig fellowship that charged an admission price. Many things were freely given to us back then and we freely gave them to strangers as we freely opened up our houses to them.
Sure, Mike, many things WERE freely given to us back then.( But not by The Way. It was a one-way street when it came to freebies.)
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Mike
I choose to look at the good,
to look at it ACCURTELY,
and to cultivate it.
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Belle
Maybe you should try looking at it ACCURATELY.
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Mike
Yikes!
I guess I should look at my Spell Checker's "On" light more accurately.
Or maybe it's the settings, that ALL-CAPS words are not checked.
Gosh, I hope this won't affect any of my rewards?
But the GOOD NEWS, Belle, is that you don't have me set on "ignore" anymore!
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Oakspear
I used the word "admitted" for two reasons 1)I wouldn't have expected him to provide an in-depth list of anyone who he had allowed to teach the class live and 2)He had a habit of acting like people who left his organization didn't exist
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doojable
If it's your impression - then it's your opinion - so in my book it's about as good as my opinion. That means it's not revelation at all - but you seeing revelation where there is none.
VP was very good at getting what he wanted. No matter what he "wished" in public - if he wanted something he found a way to get it. If he was so darn sure that multiple teachers were necessary, he would have announced on a SNS tape that he wasn't going to teach the class himself anymore, with the exception of large scale classes like PFAL '77.
Besides, as a supposed gift minister (as he claimed to be) he was supposed to be helping believers mature, not keep them in the infant stages. Just compare that attitude to Paul with the Corinthians.
Once again, your reading into this what your "impression" is. I'll wait for Johnj to answer for himself, but I'd venture that he is using the word more like when "evidence is admitted" - hence, "entered in or into. - ie - allowed."Again, what vpw wanted, he got or took... There is no hate here. It's simple observation.
OH so now we're "pulling a Saul" are we? Blaming the people for his (vp's) lack? Sorry, but I don't buy it.So he decided that his books were more complete than the scriptures? I don't even believe that vpw believed that.
Well - I'd say that vpw just learned from those branch leaders...
I NEVER saw money flow from HQ back to the branches or twigs... not on a grand scale. It was always a matter of vpw's personal agenda.
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frank123lol
Vic was a con man pure and simple whether it was snake oil or the bible.It made him filthy rich..
As far as the King James well bud It has stood up for over 400years we will see if the books of
the way hold up so long.
As far as being mature,Well your definition is not mine,I am a hell of lot more mature having left
said ministry?cult
you are set in your ways mike as the rest of us are.My question to you is If you are so
convinced vic was right why do you not go back to his minitry?
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GrouchoMarxJr
What's interesting is that the very inception of twi was a scam. It was always about providing a legal structure to protect and accumulate assets. Wierwille was an extremely immoral man whose "relationship" with God was a phoney as the snow on the gas pumps. He was a con man...and then there's people like Mike who still swears by the snake oil. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the cult apologists...oh well, to each his own.
...and I remember very well sitting through the "Way tree" seminar. I can still hear that sniveling Johnny Townsend, doing his best VP imitation, telling us all about the Yak family...about how they all form a circle around the young ones to protect them...what he forgot to tell us was that eventually the Yaks turn on their own and put the horns to them...
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WhiteDove
At the December 7th and 8th 1958 meeting at New Lyme Ohio regarding the Way Biblical Seminary two issues were discussed that pertained to PFAL
Quote
1. The Fee - Some of the members of the Board recommended charging a registration fee for the class plus a class fee.
2. How Dr. Wierwille could best use his time - Some members felt that Dr. Wierwille was spending too much time traveling and teaching PFAL classes and that it might be a better usage of his time if he stayed at South Washington Street and got some of his writings into printed form as well as worked on new material. Ermal Owens suggested that the Board should have a meeting the following month so that some of these matters could be decided after everyone had time to think and pray about them.
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waysider
Prince Rupert Awakes--- King Crimson
Farewell the temple master's bell
His kiosk and his black worm seed
Courtship solely of his word
With Eden guaranteed.
For now Prince Rupert's tears of glass
Make saphron Sabath eyelids bleed
Scar the sacred tablet wax
On which the lizards feed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Mike
Kinda makes ya wonder why that "revelation" VP got about the PFAL class failed to mention it ain't cool to pretend someone elses work is your own.
Suppose for a moment that God really did give Dr. Wierwille revelation about which works of other people were accurate.
Do you suppose God also gave him revelation to lie about where the info came from or did he just do that part on his own?
If God gave VP revelation to set The Way up like a tree, hows come he set it up like a multilevel marketing organization instead?
I don't hate the guy.
I just don't understand why God "told" him one thing and he did something completely different.
Any thoughts?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Whitedove!................interesting post!
this december, 1958 meeting you are referring to here............was that at ray and vera's house?...............i assume that "the board" referred to in the notes, is the board of directors, not the board of trustees.......is that correct?
since this meeting took place in december, 1958....and, pfal was not filmed until late 1967,........again, i assume that it is referring to the "live teaching" versions of pfal extant at that time,...........is that correct?
and, lastly,.......what point are you making to us by posting these notes from that 1958 meeting on this "way tree" thread?......would you be kind enough to elaborate a little for us on that?..............................thanks!.....................................peace.
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johnj
In the discussion of other people who taught PFAL (I wasn't the one who used the word "admitted") one of my pooints may have been overlooked. TWI did not sell it and distributed it only through approved twigs. This by nature limits its distribution. If he really wanted to get the word out, he would sell (or give) it to anyone, and would not charge a large fee (it was $100 for a time, perhaps even $200 briefly).
One product of the twig limitation was that donations went to TWI/VPW and did not stay at the local level. I have a hard time imaging that VPW did not have the idea in mind that it would be great if all the after-class donations went to him. His distributuion method was in itself centralization
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doojable
Mike made a mistake - Oakspear used that term.
I heard that in certain areas the price of the class fluctuated to as high as $500.00 and as low as $50.00 (that was a "special" price.)
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wrdsandwrks
When I took it in 1974 it was $35.00.
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waysider
$65.00 in 1972.
That was a whole lot of money, back then.
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doojable
That fluctuation I posted was in the Reno area (perhaps all of Nevada) in the late '70's.
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GrouchoMarxJr
In 1975, I paid $85 bucks ...
I recall at the time, asking where the money goes. 7 people at $85 per person is $595. It seemed like a lot of money to sit and listen to a bunch of tapes (that were sent back) and receive a few paper back books...(nobody running the class got paid)...
...I was told that twi made no money on their classes!...simple math showed they were lying...and THAT was the first "sign" that I ignored when I first got involved.
...and for those of you who still embrace pfal as the greatest thing since Jesus walked the earth, I challenge you to show in the bible where teaching and preaching God's word was a money making enterprise...
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Mike
Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?
May I challenge you to show from scripture that teaching and preaching God's Word was supposed to ALWAYS be a freebee?
That's something OUR CULTURE teaches with a vengeance but I don't see that same attitude in Eastern culture. Ministering is just as much (and much more) an honorable service to perform for someone as window cleaning or waitressing, so WHY not expect cash for it? In Eastern culture people know that they owe MORE for receiving the teaching and preaching God's Word than for receiving food, clothing, or entertainment.
I observe business as a hobby. I see how the SIZES of the tips for people like waitresses are a voluntary thing, but it's still considered dishonorable to stiff them after the have worked for us in service. Not so in our culture for the service of teaching and preaching God's Word in our broken culture, severely broken on this account. Why should a preacher not be able to charge for his services, but it’s fine for a plumber or a tree trimmer to do so?
In our culture if a preacher delivers good feeling to a churchgoer it’s not considered stealing to walk out of the church “tipping” that preacher nothing or for contributing far less than what the preacher’s service provided. We will willingly pay $100 for one hour’s good feeling on a psychiatrist’s couch or for many other kinds of counseling, but not for preaching? It’s our culture that’s broken on this matter of insisting that teaching and preaching God's Word MUST be always free of monetary charge. We should be willing to pay MORE for that.
As an educational exercise, might some dutiful poster search out HOW it is that our culture has developed such a screwy hang-up like this? I might throw out one possibility: Elmer Gantry.
***
Or course, someone will quote “freely you have received, freely you should give.”
But is that enough to form a whole theology that money should not be charged for a formal class that required equipment and supplies to run, plus a substantial initial investment in film and processing and regional staff to coordinate it all?
I never saw, nor even heard of, a twig fellowship that charged an admission price. Many things were freely given to us back then and we freely gave them to strangers as we freely opened up our houses to them.
***
It’s my opinion that one of the reasons to charge for the class was to GET RID of people who were there mainly for social reasons and who did not have the mental flexibility to jump over the cultural hoop which insists that all teaching and preaching God's Word be given away for nothing.
I think the class was a bargain for those of us who wanted God more than money.
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WordWolf
you may challenge me to that....
Right after YOU show from Scripture (The Bible) that Jesus "had a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise
and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes."
(Or EQUIVALENT, of course- if you can find it but it's called something else or shaped differently,
of course, that would still count.
You first....
Your source on "Eastern culture" being?A plumber gets charged by the job- or works for a company that does, and receives a fixed salary from them
for doing so.
A waiter or waitress' salary is minimal. They work with the expectation that they will receive tips for good work.
Therefore, as most people would consider it, to skip tipping them is to deprive them of part of their livelihood.
(Don't like it? There's places where the tip is automatically deducted and assigned to them, and you
don't have to calculate.
Still don't like it? Eat at Mc Donald's. No tipping expected.)
A minister can receive a salary, and that's fine with me. His church either gets a tithe, or survives on donations.
One or the other is EXPECTED in our society.
Expecting a "tip" for preaching is a lot like expecting a "tip" for voting in the Senate.
We call that a "bribe."
Both men already GOT a salary-a living wage they can support their family on.
Preaching is part of the JOB of a minister- a basic expectation for all ministers unless specified otherwise.
Voting on bills is EXPECTED for Congressmen.
Psychiatrists get paid by the hour-and don't draw a salary otherwise when doing so.I have no doubt that you believe vpw's dismissal of Psychiatrists as "give a good feeling"
is a fair and accurate summary of their job. However, it's woefully ignorant.
A Psychiatrist must go to MEDICAL SCHOOL, and is a MEDICAL DOCTOR.
That's why they have "MD" at the end of their name.
A Psychiatrist is trained in both medicine and in Psychology, which is years of training all by itself.
You either spoke on the field of someone who spent 4 years in college, 2 years or more in Medical School,
and then 2 or more years in internship before BEGININNG their career lacking a basic understanding of their
training,
or knew all that and dismissed most of a decade's work casually.
A Psychiatrist doesn't just sit on a couch so you can get a good feeling.
Both they and LICENSED Psychologists spend years in training so they can offer more than that.
If sitting there and making appreciative noises was all it took, every Theater major in college would be
able to get a Psychology license upon graduation.
"COUNSELING" contains the word "counsel". That means they're supposed to be offering COUNSEL.
(and every PARTLY-competent one DOES).
I'm not going to try and summarize what type of counsel they offer.
In the case of a Psychiatrist, however, it's often for more severe cases, since a Psychiatrist is called in
when someone requires the use of Psychatric medication to function properly in society.
(That's so people don't go into violent fits in public, or hallucinations, or suicidal depressions, or any
of dozens of other things.) They have to monitor the effects of the medication, the non-effects,
the other symptoms not affected by medication, drug interactions with everything from what's perscribed
to the advil they took for a headache last night, all while still listening and offering professional counsel.
THAT's why we pay a Psychiatrist by the hour.
It's our poster's expectation that this is what's broken.
Real ministers make a decent salary.
And they don't do it for the money.
Or for cars, motorcycles, planes, or free labour at their home.
And they cover their shopping trips from their salary, not from the collection plate the church gets.
If a supposed minister doesn't find that sufficient, he is in the WRONG line of work, for he has
let a love of money interfere with his love for God and God's people.
A minister making enough to satisfy all his needs and his family's needs
(food, home, transportation, education for kids, clothing, basic entertainment and so on)
should not feel the need for ONE PENNY MORE.
He should be focusing on DOING HIS JOB.
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WhiteDove
[quote 'GrouchoMarxJr'
In 1975, I paid $85 bucks ...
I recall at the time, asking where the money goes. 7 people at $85 per person is $595. It seemed like a lot of money to sit and listen to a bunch of tapes (that were sent back) and receive a few paper back books...(nobody running the class got paid)...
...I was told that twi made no money on their classes!...simple math showed they were lying...and THAT was the first "sign" that I ignored when I first got involved.
...and for those of you who still embrace pfal as the greatest thing since Jesus walked the earth, I challenge you to show in the bible where teaching and preaching God's word was a money making enterprise...
As I remember it went from $65.00 t0 $85.00 somewhere in 74-75 I paid $65.00 which was a sizable amount of money in those days for me. But when you consider that you got five hardbound books and a syllabus in binder and a one year subscription to The Way Magazine. In addition to the taped material thats pretty cheap. I don't think at that point they made that much off each student as the books got cheaper or nonexistent and the price went up they did better on the profit end I'm sure. Either way I think it was money well spent in terms of the benifit to me over the years. Despite the way things turned out and the fact that everything was not as beneficial as I once maybe thought it was today, I still feel it was a bargin.
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WordWolf
$65 for 5 hardbound books, syllabus, 1-year subscription.
The books were cheap and easy to produce (so long as you have access to the reproductive facilities),
and these were not big textbooks-they were little novel-sized things, with not much print on a page.
The largest have pages with 1/2 the text of a standard textbook on it, with fewer pages than in a standard textbook.
The expenses were all covered in-house-
-The supposed author was not needed to be paid separate royalties
-No license fees were ever paid for the material from other sources
-the printing's stages were ALL done in-house and thus only cost (once the machines are paid for) were a factor
-distribution was handled FREE by us locals
-limited amounts of tapes were produced, and used over, and over, and over, showing signs of wear no normal
tapes would show
The costs to print up all the materials for a $65 class were less than $20.
The RETAIL PRICE at a bookstore for the $65 class would be under $40 in the year you took it,
and that's adding PROFIT of various kinds-for distributor, seller, author, publishing company.
They made a considerable amount per class, if 6 people were paying students per class.
====
Mind you, whether or not you feel like you got something useful for the money is a separate issue-
they were WELL-PAID for what you received, whether or not you got a benefit.
(And good for you-you feel you benefitted from it.
Me, I feel I got some benefit as well.)
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Ham
I paid $85.00. The reason they gave me.. "we HAVE to charge SOMETHING, otherwise, people won't be committed to finishing it.."
what a scam.. and yes, I perpeptuated it..
Yeah.. you pay your $65, or $85.. and sure, you sit there.. waiting to see where the "payoff" is..
most people didn't care by the end of the thing.. forgot why they paid to begin with.
From what I remember, they were printed in house, but the pages were sent off to a bindery somewhere on the cheap..
I think the bindery process was pretty foul, at least back then. Didn't want to offend der "man of gawd's" sensitive nose, I guess..
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WhiteDove
I have no disagreement that there are two issues here one being did they make a profit?, and the other being was it beneficial to the individual? Others expressed their obvious dissatisfaction with the product I expressed my satisfaction, each to their own. I'm not sure how you arrived at your cost estimate on producing the materials but I'd think it was higher than $20.00, but I have better things to do today than argue over what it may have cost or not some thirty years ago. That said as I acknowledged they did make some sort of money on the class, I don't see the profit as all that much, you may. Despite the fact that the books as you pointed out were not printed shall we say at "spare no expense on materials" I still have my original set and they are in fine shape, for the use they have had they held up far better than many books that I have purchased since then for a far greater cost.
Perspectives change over time on the worth of products a fact of life I just wonder what the point is of making such a big deal of it . I rarely see people whining about the cost of the Miami Vice white suit they bought in the 80's and how it is worthless today or how about that expensive rubik's cube that is worth ? today. As for me my books have held up well and served me well for the most part, probably among the better purchases in life as far as long term quality. Now the Beta machine that's a different story.........
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waysider
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rascal
I don`t recall a single instance recorded where Jesus asked for money when he taught or healed people.
Implying that he did without scriptural support is about as brazen as your claim that he will return teaching from a pfal book.
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