It would help if you named specific doctrines, and asked about their origins.
It's not really important to discover the origins of the specific doctrines right now. I was thinking more along the lines of whether there was a transition point where VPW began to embrace all these things for the sake of being different.
In the case of the non-Trinity stuff, it's been stated before that vpw BEGAN as a Trinitarian (there's old documents
somewhere, which I've seen, where vpw sent a letter somewhere and his greeting included a reference to
the Trinity. That was back when he was toying with the Ecumenical movement (possibly trolling them for
recruits, possibly for other reasons.)
If you want to look specifically for his Trinity positions, I'd recommend looking at discussions of
Leonard's specific doctrines. Leonard's made some statements that are NOT Trinitarian,
and I THINK they were in his book subtitled "the water in the bottle." Someone more familiar with
Leonard will have to chime in here. (Or you can dig up the old posts on it.)
vpw was introduced to Leonard's stuff sometime before 1953, and in 1953 he attended BG's class, which
became "vpw's class" a few months later. vpw was quite good at passing along material from others
without necessarily understanding it, so just because vpw got his specific beliefs from Leonard doesn't
guarantee they were an ACCURATE reflection of Leonard. vpw's been known to flub Bullinger as well.
As for vpw secretly saying God was ok with orgies, that was history as of when he went to Haight-Ashbury
to the House of Acts to hijack the hippies. He told J1m D00p that at the time.
Never heard that orgy bit before. Did D00p approve of that position?
As for WHY twi adopted non-traditional doctrines, it's my opinion that this was one of vpw's PRIMARY
approaches. Even Mrs W's accounts of twi (in her book, "Born Again to Serve") showed him trying to work
with young people (as does Uncle Harry's account in TW:LiL.) He specifically TARGETTED the youths from
the beginning of his career. Do you attract them by sticking to tradition? NO-
if you want to maximize NUMBERS and NUMBERS matter most to you,
you will look for something NEW and DIFFERENT, something shiny, to try to draw them.
The natural rebellious streak will make it more likely they'll give your group a second look.
If you look at ALL the sources vpw used, it's pretty obvious that the only thing he used that was
standard was Young's Concordance, and everything else was taken from sources as OBSCURE as possible,
or DIFFERENT as possible.
WW, exactly what I was getting at.
"Look, I have something you've never heard before!
I got it directly from God, who promised it's the first time for 2000 years Christians have heard it!
This is the secret "original Christian" stuff!
You can't get it anywhere else, because they don't have my special connection with God Almighty!"
Right, the scarcity principle. People still hanging around the Way because the think they won't be able to find this teaching, this "rightly divided Word" anywhere else. In some ways they are right.
Right, the scarcity principle. People still hanging around the Way because the think they won't be able to find this teaching, this "rightly divided Word" anywhere else. In some ways they are right.
That's what caught the attention of my little brother and me - 4 crucified - "today you shall be with me in paradise" - "eli eli" - speaking in tongues..... all "new" stuff to us and, therefore, very interesting and captivating, keeping us around moreso than being "just another Christian group" would have.
I think vee pee looked for those things to set him apart and to use as "hooks" in his bait to get us and our money.
I think wordwolf and belle have hit on the 2 major "ideological" tipping points regarding why vic really pushed the consolidation and eventual "denominationalization" of twi doctrines.........from a chronological perspective, i think the tipping point came in the spring of 1972, when vic pranced out john townsend as the "frontman" for the teaching and establishment , the "formalization" of the way tree.........prior to that time, there were only "fellowships", not twigs........we were'nt "joining twi".......there was no twi,.....it was "the way, inc."....back then........."the way ministry"........the brc had the word "ecumenical" stamped on its dedicatory placque, hung at the main entrance.........we were "getting into the word",........becoming "born-again christians"............."getting into the ministry".........which back in 1970......(when i "got in")......consisted of, "headquarters", in new knoxville ("the farm").....the way west, the way east, the way of north carolina (the ecu crowd, et al), the way of kansas (primarily fugit in wichita, followed shortly by townsend),...the way of indiana, the way of ohio, and the way of australia............after the "summer school"....sessions of 1969 and 1970, at hq........things really began mushrooming all over the states..........in the way east, we went from nothing in early 1970 to thousands of "grads" all over the northeast........hundreds of classes, hundreds of thousands of dollars in "tithes and offerings, bookstore sales, class registration "donations"....etc., etc.,.....
the only "formal doctrines" were the foundational, intermediate and advanced classes (with accompanying syllabi), "the collaterals" (a collection of about 62 pamphlets, including "pamphlet" versions of christians should be prosperous and adan) and whatever notes people took at summer school and/or family camps!!!........the structure was incredibly "loose" compared to what many came to know in the years following the spring of '72!!!............thousands of details are flying through my mind right now.......but, suffice it to say.......the incredible increase in cashflow and "membership" provided a major windfall for vic and the boys in nk!!!..........in 1972, vic "brought it all home" to the farm.......way east and way west leaders were axed with the various "rumors" of misuse of the money, "ego problems" and not "listeneing to the man of god" at headquarters.............almost over night, "blue forms" appeared, all money was deposited directly into newly established "limb" bank accounts.....fellowships became twigs, branches, areas and limbs with "leadership" ordained and appointed by headquarters and then "down the tree"........going wow and corps was now the only "right" way of moving the word and growing "spiritually"........vic consolidated financial and doctrinal control over "his ministry" centralizing and dictating all in and from new knoxville!!!......he was our "father in the word" now.....not merely "the teacher" any more........suddenly there were new seminars, jcing became the "big deal" in 1973........and the money just kept pouring in!!.......if you did'nt line up with hq, you were "out of fellowship".......usually "possessed",....."tripped out"......the pfal series was dogmatized, the way tree institutionalized and the "way ministry" was denominationalized into "the way international"!!!
so, to gain and maintain control over the leadership and the money,......vic went about full force giving twi it's unique identity, tatooing his way over "the way", his teachings over "the word" and his lifestyle upon the "followers of the way".........the doctrine became "written in stone" and its purest form was available only from "the farm",through "the teacher", our newly crowned "father in the word"....bringing new light to our generation by formalizing all the stuff he plagerized, stole and "received from god" into HIS ministry.......and personal "cash cow"!!!.............hence "the scarcity" of the "rightly-divided word, as it has'nt been taught since the first century".....became an ever more necessary "club" in the hands of the apostle vic used to bludgeon the identity of his ministry into the hungry minds of his faithful "grads".......the spurious doctrines hinted at in the pfal series now became books, seminars, research projects, films, public ex's, rock of ages, etc., etc.,....ad infinitum!.................so....the "WHEN"......as far as "putting some teeth into the ministry".......imo........truly was in the spring of 1972 with the imposition of the way tree structure upon those who were formerly simply "followers of the way".............what a toxic spring that turned out to be!!!!..........................peace.
I think the unusual doctrines started when VPW started reading the Bible and found 'Churchianity' had nothing to offer but 'stories' (i.e. fairytales). I personally believe Churchianity contributed more to the Word over the USA than the WOW program. I wasn't there when VPW had affairs. But I was there when the class ran. 4 crucified, eli;eli; holy spirit stuff was wonderful, but it wasn't the all to end all.
The Bible is still here though it's not allowed in classrooms or on courthouse steps or in some churches. I did visit a church a year back. I was the only one there with a Bible. The Sunday so-called worship service was a bunch of Bible verses on a video screen so no one would have to carry their Bible. The lights went out so everyone could see the screen. Then, I couldn't see my Bible.
Read the Bible and you'll find a lot of unusual doctrines. Like born again of incorruptible seed. Fellowship vs. sonship. Dispensationalism. etc.
Perhaps we are using the word "unusual" to mean doctrines that, not only contradict mainstream Christianity, but also contradict what is actually written.
Such things as "4 crucified". "6 denials", "faith vs believing", and so on fit both criteria.
Jesus certainly had an unusual doctrine to the Pharisees. It worked, too.
So... any unusual doctrine is fine? As long as it works? It seems to me that was the bait on the hook to begin with. (And aren't there numerous warnings against chasing after other doctrines that "work"?)
We became the inner elite circle of God's family. We said he loved all his kids - but really we knew He liked us best. (Notice my sarcastic tone here...) We weren't the Pharisees. We weren't the enemy. We didn't get sucked into the lie...
Until we realized that all that was a bunch of bunk...
(Note - I'll anticipate Johniam's disdain for the use of the word, "we" and say that I am using it to describe what I sensed as the dominant feeling among my peers and from the lecturns.)
Shortfuse, to answer your question re: the orgies. I had two, what I would consider, profound, conversations with Jim Doop shortly before he died. I had called him, because as one of the early leaders of the Jesus Movement, I was interested in it and the people (like Lonnie Frisbee, who he knew), from a historical perspective. I figured, well, Paul and the apostles are gone, great men of God through the ages are gone, I would like to talk to this man because I believe God worked mightily in him, Heefner, Frisbee, and other young men whom God called to call a new generation to Him. These men were founders and leaders of a revival, which I haven't seen since in my lifetime.
Anyway, Jim told me he had gone to one orgy, and he and his wife didn't like it and did not continue with them. But VP, when he visited SF and the Haight, kept pestering Jim for details. Jim also said, on their down time, he'd go with VP to the porno theatres. Jim said VP treated him like a son, it was the height of the hippie, free love thing, so at that time, even though he thought it a bit weird, he didn't think it was a big deal.
He was also terribly hurt, "betrayed" was the word he used, when VP had the infamous meeting and wrenched control of the Way West from California and all the money now had to go to HQ because VP had promised he would never do that, it was all about the Word.
I think the unusual doctrines started when VPW started reading the Bible and found 'Churchianity' had nothing to offer but 'stories' (i.e. fairytales).
Whenever I see someone using the twi-speak words like "churchianity",
I suspect there's going to be some shallow logic in part of the discussion.
"Churchianity" is meant to refer to "all Christians except twi" or occasionally "all Christians except twi-style".
This supposed "Churchianity" is where vpw got Bullinger's info (Bullinger was connected with churches and
Christian organizations for his adult life), Stiles' info (the book, and meeting him at that conference),
and Leonard's info (Leonard was training Christians who could go back to their congregations and serve
wherever they and God deemed necessary and proper).
Without "churchianity", vpw would have found no Bullinger, no Stiles, no Leonard. Without them,
all vpw had was the "law" of believing -which is seen in the REST of the Word-Faith movement as well,
since they all ripped off Kenyon- and Lamsa's Aramaic stuff, most of which has been shown as quaint cottage ideas
and errors ('stories' or 'fairytales'). That would have been about 1 session's worth of pfal if it was done,
or 2 sessions if he stretched the material with a lot of jokes.
I personally believe Churchianity contributed more to the Word over the USA than the WOW program.
I believe Christians as a whole contributed to the Bible's knowledge and application than ALL the twi people together,
which probably isn't what you MEANT, but it is what you said...
I wasn't there when VPW had affairs.
Weren't there when he drugged and raped young, barely-legal females, either, I take it.
"affairs" is a euphemism, and an extreme one.
It's like calling what Jeffrey Dahmer did "an odd diet."
But I was there when the class ran. 4 crucified, eli;eli; holy spirit stuff was wonderful, but it wasn't the all to end all.
So, were vpw's felonies acceptable because "the class ran"?
No need to answer, your posts have already suggested they WERE...
The Bible is still here though it's not allowed in classrooms or on courthouse steps or in some churches. I did visit a church a year back. I was the only one there with a Bible. The Sunday so-called worship service was a bunch of Bible verses on a video screen so no one would have to carry their Bible. The lights went out so everyone could see the screen. Then, I couldn't see my Bible.
Read the Bible and you'll find a lot of unusual doctrines. Like born again of incorruptible seed. Fellowship vs. sonship. Dispensationalism. etc.
And people killing children by putting them through the fire to offer to Molech,
or taking money to curse God's people,
or using one's authority as God's leader to abuse the women.
(There IS nothing new under the sun.)
Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's approved of,
and just because it's in the Bible doesn't make it an "unusual doctrine"
(like incorruptible seed, sons of God, etc.)
Finally, the fellowship/sonship thing was largely inflated from an interesting footnote to a significant point in pfal.
As for dispensationalism, a lot of Christians are not convinced it's in Scripture
(possibily because there are none named IN Scripture, so if they exist, they're not that important.)
Shortfuse, to answer your question re: the orgies. I had two, what I would consider, profound, conversations with Jim Doop shortly before he died. I had called him, because as one of the early leaders of the Jesus Movement, I was interested in it and the people (like Lonnie Frisbee, who he knew), from a historical perspective. I figured, well, Paul and the apostles are gone, great men of God through the ages are gone, I would like to talk to this man because I believe God worked mightily in him, Heefner, Frisbee, and other young men whom God called to call a new generation to Him. These men were founders and leaders of a revival, which I haven't seen since in my lifetime.
Anyway, Jim told me he had gone to one orgy, and he and his wife didn't like it and did not continue with them. But VP, when he visited SF and the Haight, kept pestering Jim for details. Jim also said, on their down time, he'd go with VP to the porno theatres. Jim said VP treated him like a son, it was the height of the hippie, free love thing, so at that time, even though he thought it a bit weird, he didn't think it was a big deal.
He was also terribly hurt, "betrayed" was the word he used, when VP had the infamous meeting and wrenched control of the Way West from California and all the money now had to go to HQ because VP had promised he would never do that, it was all about the Word.
As J1m D00p wrote concerning when vpw asked him....
""As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe
what it was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question
and embarassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony
in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever
asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy.
We found his curiousity shocking.
But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him
since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief.
We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco
Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the
spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes.
'You know that's all available," V.P. said.
'God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman."
If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage
God would have said "best" instead of "good".
I could not believe what I was hearing.
I responded with 'I just thank God that He pulled
our souls out of that pit of debauchery.'
When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her,
'I don't believe what he said tonight,
and I'm going to forget it.
I must have misunderstood him.' "
Sunesis, was it you I was quoting, who was friends with D00p and was told, by him..
"Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture.
D0*p never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation."
If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage
God would have said "best" instead of "good".
Kind of off topic, but this is a good example of Wierwille twisting things. How does he know that God "would have said best"? and what God meant? Wierwille decided what words meant and what God was saying and that was that. That's working the Word, Wierwille style.
VPW chose to not look deeper into that scripture. Willful blindness...
I sat in the Corps Night teachings where W*lter C^mmings taught from I Cor 7:1. He went through the Greek and showed that it said nothing even close to what VP said to J D00p. (Althought he never came right out and said that VP had been teaching something wrong.)
And this was years before the "Adultery" paper by J. S.
I think the unusual doctrines started when VPW started reading the Bible and found 'Churchianity' had nothing to offer but 'stories' (i.e. fairytales). I personally believe Churchianity contributed more to the Word over the USA than the WOW program.
There is some truth to this, but it doesn't follow that if every Christian and church was 100% great that heresy would not arise. When the apostle Paul spoke to the elders in Ephesus he warned them that "from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away discipels after themselves." (Acts 20:30) So, while the imperfection of the church is a factor, the main error is cult eladers who want Christ's disciples to become their disciples instead, as VPW did. You don't promote yourself as "the man of God" and the greatest teacher since the first century unless you're out to do that. Heresy and cults arise first from sin in the leader not from sin in the church. Otherwise the leaders would build the church rather than replace it with themselves. Note in Acts, distorting the truth as VPW did is the primary way to draw disciples after themseklves.
Another key verse in understanding VPW is 2 Tim 4:3, "men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them, a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from trth and turn aside to myths." VPW had itching ears. Even if he never started a cult, and even if he knew the Truth, he likely would have itched and looked for myths. He did this his whole life. And PFAL is little else that a summary of his myths. If he'd done PFAL later, he'd hjave added athletes of the spirit and every women in the kingdom is the king's.
VP's ears were probably itching in India, but I think when he picked up inhaling the Spirit from Stiles, he started his streak of itching ears myths that never stopped until he died.
Wordwolf, no, that is not my quotation. But to corroborate, the reason VPW looked up Jim D**p specifically is because he had read in some Christian publication about leadership's work in winning kids and how some were also involved in "free sex" - I think Jim's name was mentioned in the free sex context. So,VP headed on out there.
VP's ears were probably itching in India, but I think when he picked up inhaling the Spirit from Stiles, he started his streak of itching ears myths that never stopped until he died.
I think it was an itch for power, even before India. he admitted as much in der vey living in love..
upset with the church, upset about being told what to preach, congregation calling him on stuff.. taught on TITHING four Sundays in a row.. "cried like a baby" when they confronted him..
livid that the elders and deacons wouldn't roll over and just let him run the show.. calls them cop outs.. "elders don't eld, deacons don't deac.."
then he prays..
"father, if you don't give me something that I DON'T HAVE TO BACK DOWN ON, I'm outta here.."
then a voice comes out of heaven, and a dove, or is it snow that decends upon the gas pumps..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
VPW was introduced to anti-trinitarianism by Jock Edwin Stiles, Brian George Leonard, and George Machismo Lamsa.
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WordWolf
It would help if you named specific doctrines, and asked about their origins.
In the case of the non-Trinity stuff, it's been stated before that vpw BEGAN as a Trinitarian (there's old documents
somewhere, which I've seen, where vpw sent a letter somewhere and his greeting included a reference to
the Trinity. That was back when he was toying with the Ecumenical movement (possibly trolling them for
recruits, possibly for other reasons.)
If you want to look specifically for his Trinity positions, I'd recommend looking at discussions of
Leonard's specific doctrines. Leonard's made some statements that are NOT Trinitarian,
and I THINK they were in his book subtitled "the water in the bottle." Someone more familiar with
Leonard will have to chime in here. (Or you can dig up the old posts on it.)
vpw was introduced to Leonard's stuff sometime before 1953, and in 1953 he attended BG's class, which
became "vpw's class" a few months later. vpw was quite good at passing along material from others
without necessarily understanding it, so just because vpw got his specific beliefs from Leonard doesn't
guarantee they were an ACCURATE reflection of Leonard. vpw's been known to flub Bullinger as well.
As for vpw secretly saying God was ok with orgies, that was history as of when he went to Haight-Ashbury
to the House of Acts to hijack the hippies. He told J1m D00p that at the time.
========
As for WHY twi adopted non-traditional doctrines, it's my opinion that this was one of vpw's PRIMARY
approaches. Even Mrs W's accounts of twi (in her book, "Born Again to Serve") showed him trying to work
with young people (as does Uncle Harry's account in TW:LiL.) He specifically TARGETTED the youths from
the beginning of his career. Do you attract them by sticking to tradition? NO-
if you want to maximize NUMBERS and NUMBERS matter most to you,
you will look for something NEW and DIFFERENT, something shiny, to try to draw them.
The natural rebellious streak will make it more likely they'll give your group a second look.
If you look at ALL the sources vpw used, it's pretty obvious that the only thing he used that was
standard was Young's Concordance, and everything else was taken from sources as OBSCURE as possible,
or DIFFERENT as possible.
"Look, I have something you've never heard before!
I got it directly from God, who promised it's the first time for 2000 years Christians have heard it!
This is the secret "original Christian" stuff!
You can't get it anywhere else, because they don't have my special connection with God Almighty!"
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shortfuse
Machismo, eh? He should have went with that. The Machismo Bible would have sold some units.
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shortfuse
It's not really important to discover the origins of the specific doctrines right now. I was thinking more along the lines of whether there was a transition point where VPW began to embrace all these things for the sake of being different.
Never heard that orgy bit before. Did D00p approve of that position?
WW, exactly what I was getting at.
Right, the scarcity principle. People still hanging around the Way because the think they won't be able to find this teaching, this "rightly divided Word" anywhere else. In some ways they are right.
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Belle
That's what caught the attention of my little brother and me - 4 crucified - "today you shall be with me in paradise" - "eli eli" - speaking in tongues..... all "new" stuff to us and, therefore, very interesting and captivating, keeping us around moreso than being "just another Christian group" would have.
I think vee pee looked for those things to set him apart and to use as "hooks" in his bait to get us and our money.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello there, shortfuse!!.........thought provoking post........thanks!
I think wordwolf and belle have hit on the 2 major "ideological" tipping points regarding why vic really pushed the consolidation and eventual "denominationalization" of twi doctrines.........from a chronological perspective, i think the tipping point came in the spring of 1972, when vic pranced out john townsend as the "frontman" for the teaching and establishment , the "formalization" of the way tree.........prior to that time, there were only "fellowships", not twigs........we were'nt "joining twi".......there was no twi,.....it was "the way, inc."....back then........."the way ministry"........the brc had the word "ecumenical" stamped on its dedicatory placque, hung at the main entrance.........we were "getting into the word",........becoming "born-again christians"............."getting into the ministry".........which back in 1970......(when i "got in")......consisted of, "headquarters", in new knoxville ("the farm").....the way west, the way east, the way of north carolina (the ecu crowd, et al), the way of kansas (primarily fugit in wichita, followed shortly by townsend),...the way of indiana, the way of ohio, and the way of australia............after the "summer school"....sessions of 1969 and 1970, at hq........things really began mushrooming all over the states..........in the way east, we went from nothing in early 1970 to thousands of "grads" all over the northeast........hundreds of classes, hundreds of thousands of dollars in "tithes and offerings, bookstore sales, class registration "donations"....etc., etc.,.....
the only "formal doctrines" were the foundational, intermediate and advanced classes (with accompanying syllabi), "the collaterals" (a collection of about 62 pamphlets, including "pamphlet" versions of christians should be prosperous and adan) and whatever notes people took at summer school and/or family camps!!!........the structure was incredibly "loose" compared to what many came to know in the years following the spring of '72!!!............thousands of details are flying through my mind right now.......but, suffice it to say.......the incredible increase in cashflow and "membership" provided a major windfall for vic and the boys in nk!!!..........in 1972, vic "brought it all home" to the farm.......way east and way west leaders were axed with the various "rumors" of misuse of the money, "ego problems" and not "listeneing to the man of god" at headquarters.............almost over night, "blue forms" appeared, all money was deposited directly into newly established "limb" bank accounts.....fellowships became twigs, branches, areas and limbs with "leadership" ordained and appointed by headquarters and then "down the tree"........going wow and corps was now the only "right" way of moving the word and growing "spiritually"........vic consolidated financial and doctrinal control over "his ministry" centralizing and dictating all in and from new knoxville!!!......he was our "father in the word" now.....not merely "the teacher" any more........suddenly there were new seminars, jcing became the "big deal" in 1973........and the money just kept pouring in!!.......if you did'nt line up with hq, you were "out of fellowship".......usually "possessed",....."tripped out"......the pfal series was dogmatized, the way tree institutionalized and the "way ministry" was denominationalized into "the way international"!!!
so, to gain and maintain control over the leadership and the money,......vic went about full force giving twi it's unique identity, tatooing his way over "the way", his teachings over "the word" and his lifestyle upon the "followers of the way".........the doctrine became "written in stone" and its purest form was available only from "the farm",through "the teacher", our newly crowned "father in the word"....bringing new light to our generation by formalizing all the stuff he plagerized, stole and "received from god" into HIS ministry.......and personal "cash cow"!!!.............hence "the scarcity" of the "rightly-divided word, as it has'nt been taught since the first century".....became an ever more necessary "club" in the hands of the apostle vic used to bludgeon the identity of his ministry into the hungry minds of his faithful "grads".......the spurious doctrines hinted at in the pfal series now became books, seminars, research projects, films, public ex's, rock of ages, etc., etc.,....ad infinitum!.................so....the "WHEN"......as far as "putting some teeth into the ministry".......imo........truly was in the spring of 1972 with the imposition of the way tree structure upon those who were formerly simply "followers of the way".............what a toxic spring that turned out to be!!!!..........................peace.
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waysider
Spring of 1972 is when I got witnessed to.
I remember thinking,"What the heck is a "twig"?
We had quite a few Kansas people in our area.
Jim Mull!nz ran the class I was in.
(There is a whole story I could tell about that.)
The year before that, there were (what would become known as) WOWs in the area.
Things were definitely "unconventional" to say the least.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that the doctrines were already unusual when I got in the Word in '72.
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YID
That's a good question with a simple answer.
I think the unusual doctrines started when VPW started reading the Bible and found 'Churchianity' had nothing to offer but 'stories' (i.e. fairytales). I personally believe Churchianity contributed more to the Word over the USA than the WOW program. I wasn't there when VPW had affairs. But I was there when the class ran. 4 crucified, eli;eli; holy spirit stuff was wonderful, but it wasn't the all to end all.
The Bible is still here though it's not allowed in classrooms or on courthouse steps or in some churches. I did visit a church a year back. I was the only one there with a Bible. The Sunday so-called worship service was a bunch of Bible verses on a video screen so no one would have to carry their Bible. The lights went out so everyone could see the screen. Then, I couldn't see my Bible.
Read the Bible and you'll find a lot of unusual doctrines. Like born again of incorruptible seed. Fellowship vs. sonship. Dispensationalism. etc.
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waysider
Perhaps we are using the word "unusual" to mean doctrines that, not only contradict mainstream Christianity, but also contradict what is actually written.
Such things as "4 crucified". "6 denials", "faith vs believing", and so on fit both criteria.
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johniam
Jesus certainly had an unusual doctrine to the Pharisees. It worked, too.
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doojable
So... any unusual doctrine is fine? As long as it works? It seems to me that was the bait on the hook to begin with. (And aren't there numerous warnings against chasing after other doctrines that "work"?)
We became the inner elite circle of God's family. We said he loved all his kids - but really we knew He liked us best. (Notice my sarcastic tone here...) We weren't the Pharisees. We weren't the enemy. We didn't get sucked into the lie...
Until we realized that all that was a bunch of bunk...
(Note - I'll anticipate Johniam's disdain for the use of the word, "we" and say that I am using it to describe what I sensed as the dominant feeling among my peers and from the lecturns.)
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Sunesis
Shortfuse, to answer your question re: the orgies. I had two, what I would consider, profound, conversations with Jim Doop shortly before he died. I had called him, because as one of the early leaders of the Jesus Movement, I was interested in it and the people (like Lonnie Frisbee, who he knew), from a historical perspective. I figured, well, Paul and the apostles are gone, great men of God through the ages are gone, I would like to talk to this man because I believe God worked mightily in him, Heefner, Frisbee, and other young men whom God called to call a new generation to Him. These men were founders and leaders of a revival, which I haven't seen since in my lifetime.
Anyway, Jim told me he had gone to one orgy, and he and his wife didn't like it and did not continue with them. But VP, when he visited SF and the Haight, kept pestering Jim for details. Jim also said, on their down time, he'd go with VP to the porno theatres. Jim said VP treated him like a son, it was the height of the hippie, free love thing, so at that time, even though he thought it a bit weird, he didn't think it was a big deal.
He was also terribly hurt, "betrayed" was the word he used, when VP had the infamous meeting and wrenched control of the Way West from California and all the money now had to go to HQ because VP had promised he would never do that, it was all about the Word.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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Ham
I thought that "Dilemma of foreign missions in India" was the first real big splash..
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WordWolf
Whenever I see someone using the twi-speak words like "churchianity",
I suspect there's going to be some shallow logic in part of the discussion.
"Churchianity" is meant to refer to "all Christians except twi" or occasionally "all Christians except twi-style".
This supposed "Churchianity" is where vpw got Bullinger's info (Bullinger was connected with churches and
Christian organizations for his adult life), Stiles' info (the book, and meeting him at that conference),
and Leonard's info (Leonard was training Christians who could go back to their congregations and serve
wherever they and God deemed necessary and proper).
Without "churchianity", vpw would have found no Bullinger, no Stiles, no Leonard. Without them,
all vpw had was the "law" of believing -which is seen in the REST of the Word-Faith movement as well,
since they all ripped off Kenyon- and Lamsa's Aramaic stuff, most of which has been shown as quaint cottage ideas
and errors ('stories' or 'fairytales'). That would have been about 1 session's worth of pfal if it was done,
or 2 sessions if he stretched the material with a lot of jokes.
I believe Christians as a whole contributed to the Bible's knowledge and application than ALL the twi people together,which probably isn't what you MEANT, but it is what you said...
Weren't there when he drugged and raped young, barely-legal females, either, I take it.
"affairs" is a euphemism, and an extreme one.
It's like calling what Jeffrey Dahmer did "an odd diet."
So, were vpw's felonies acceptable because "the class ran"?No need to answer, your posts have already suggested they WERE...
And people killing children by putting them through the fire to offer to Molech,
or taking money to curse God's people,
or using one's authority as God's leader to abuse the women.
(There IS nothing new under the sun.)
Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's approved of,
and just because it's in the Bible doesn't make it an "unusual doctrine"
(like incorruptible seed, sons of God, etc.)
Finally, the fellowship/sonship thing was largely inflated from an interesting footnote to a significant point in pfal.
As for dispensationalism, a lot of Christians are not convinced it's in Scripture
(possibily because there are none named IN Scripture, so if they exist, they're not that important.)
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WordWolf
As J1m D00p wrote concerning when vpw asked him....
""As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe
what it was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question
and embarassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony
in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever
asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy.
We found his curiousity shocking.
But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him
since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief.
We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco
Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the
spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes.
'You know that's all available," V.P. said.
'God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman."
If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage
God would have said "best" instead of "good".
I could not believe what I was hearing.
I responded with 'I just thank God that He pulled
our souls out of that pit of debauchery.'
When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her,
'I don't believe what he said tonight,
and I'm going to forget it.
I must have misunderstood him.' "
Sunesis, was it you I was quoting, who was friends with D00p and was told, by him..
"Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture.
D0*p never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation."
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Oakspear
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doojable
You know...
VPW chose to not look deeper into that scripture. Willful blindness...
I sat in the Corps Night teachings where W*lter C^mmings taught from I Cor 7:1. He went through the Greek and showed that it said nothing even close to what VP said to J D00p. (Althought he never came right out and said that VP had been teaching something wrong.)
And this was years before the "Adultery" paper by J. S.
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johnj
There is some truth to this, but it doesn't follow that if every Christian and church was 100% great that heresy would not arise. When the apostle Paul spoke to the elders in Ephesus he warned them that "from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away discipels after themselves." (Acts 20:30) So, while the imperfection of the church is a factor, the main error is cult eladers who want Christ's disciples to become their disciples instead, as VPW did. You don't promote yourself as "the man of God" and the greatest teacher since the first century unless you're out to do that. Heresy and cults arise first from sin in the leader not from sin in the church. Otherwise the leaders would build the church rather than replace it with themselves. Note in Acts, distorting the truth as VPW did is the primary way to draw disciples after themseklves.
Another key verse in understanding VPW is 2 Tim 4:3, "men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them, a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from trth and turn aside to myths." VPW had itching ears. Even if he never started a cult, and even if he knew the Truth, he likely would have itched and looked for myths. He did this his whole life. And PFAL is little else that a summary of his myths. If he'd done PFAL later, he'd hjave added athletes of the spirit and every women in the kingdom is the king's.
VP's ears were probably itching in India, but I think when he picked up inhaling the Spirit from Stiles, he started his streak of itching ears myths that never stopped until he died.
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Sunesis
Wordwolf, no, that is not my quotation. But to corroborate, the reason VPW looked up Jim D**p specifically is because he had read in some Christian publication about leadership's work in winning kids and how some were also involved in "free sex" - I think Jim's name was mentioned in the free sex context. So,VP headed on out there.
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Ham
I think it was an itch for power, even before India. he admitted as much in der vey living in love..
upset with the church, upset about being told what to preach, congregation calling him on stuff.. taught on TITHING four Sundays in a row.. "cried like a baby" when they confronted him..
livid that the elders and deacons wouldn't roll over and just let him run the show.. calls them cop outs.. "elders don't eld, deacons don't deac.."
then he prays..
"father, if you don't give me something that I DON'T HAVE TO BACK DOWN ON, I'm outta here.."
then a voice comes out of heaven, and a dove, or is it snow that decends upon the gas pumps..
something just doesn't seem very rational here..
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anotherDan
Sunesis said:
Funny how context can make a difference, eh?
:)
Sunesis: was J1m D00p's book published before he died? I didn't see any mention of it on the D00p thread.
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Ham
I thought that too.. but was the Squirrel gonna post that?
Nooooooooo....
You're a braver man than I, Mr. Dan..
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Sunesis
Dan, LOL! Yes, truly, context is everything! :)
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