Sigh.... there is so much wrong with what we were taught...
I've likened those five keys to a set of conditions (remember we were taught that God is not a respecter of persons but He IS a respecter of conditions ;)) :
(The following is example only!)
Suppose I promise my child that if she meets 5 conditions she will not only have some money but she will get to spend it as she pleases. She does this repeatedly and one day announces to me that she has saved up a couple of thousand dollars and knows how she can turn it into hundreds of thousands...
The trouble is that she wants to buy some cocaine that she can turn around for a hefty sum.
Now all agreements go out the window! I'm still her mother and I have responsibility for her well being and safety, not to mention her moral fiber. The bigger and overall agreement takes precedent - that being the "agreement" that I made when I decided to become a parent in the first place - to love and protect my children and help them grow into healthy adults.
I don't know about everyone, but all too many times I observed believers trying to get all their ducks in a row with those 5 keys to believing, but still not receive. I would try to explain to them that God, as their Heavenly Father, still had a say in their life - regardless of the conditions met.
The response was always the same, "But, but, but I did everything right!"
God can not be manipulated into answering our beck and call - keys or no keys. Sometimes the answer to prayer is a simple, heartfelt, "No."
THAT relationship was never really taught in TWI - the fact that He is God and we are not...
In the pfal class VP held one hand above the other while he was saying "if your needs are down here and your wants are way up here, it won't flow", but when he actually said "your needs and wants must be parallel" his hands were side by side, forming an 8" line which happened to be "parallel" to his bible, which was directly underneath his hands.
Well, since the Orange Book mentions NOTHING of this 'parallel to the Bible' stuff,
it's interesting-maybe- but certainly is not what he MEANT to teach.
=========
Orange Book, pg-19 to 21.
"If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life, we must not only know what is available, how to receive it,
and what to do with it; but we must also get our needs and wants parallel. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy,
we are not balanced. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy, we are not balanced. If our wants are light and
our needs are heavy, we will never get an answer. When we believe, we get results in prayer if our needs and our wants are equal.
Look at Matthew 18:19.
...If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
In the Greek text the word 'agree' is ' symphonized'. If the two people agree, they are in harmony; they have their needs and wants
parallel because 'it shall be done.' John 14:13 is another tremendous truth.
John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Again, whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, having our needs and wants parallel, he is going to do. In John 15:16 is another wonderful
promise.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
If we know what is available, how to receive it, what to do with it, and have our needs and wants parallel, then whatsoever
we shall ask shall be done unto us.
There is another promise in I John 5:14.
I John 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
If we have our needs and wants parallel, we can ask him anything according to His will. How can we know His will without knowing
Tithing fits into this discussion, because it was - and still is - a Godly principle which lots of folks (including myself) have practiced for a long time. And yet, despite its age-old merit, even tithing was taught in a self-serving and God-minimizing way.
Give God ten percent, and get back a lot more.
It was the ultimate casino game. It was like a fail-proof stock market strategy. And where was God in all of this? Where was our love for God?
For years I tithed, as a necessity - not only to be accepted within the Way, but also to ensure that I could pay my bills. It was heresy indeed!
Even after I was out of TWI, I continued to tithe, and still do. But I am starting to evolve away from that old motive. Every now and then, I still find myself returning to that magical thinking - that tithing is my good luck charm, rather than an expression of my gratitude to God. In the New Testament, Jesus said that when we give to the least his children, we give to him. I am learning (re-learning) that the recipient is God, even if I'm just giving money to the local homeless shelter or to a friend who needs help. And that's good enough, whether I get anything back or not.
Anyhow, the underlying flavor of "Believing" among TWI people became more of a superstition. Push this button and God will do this. Pull that lever and God will do that.
Interesting that God is so forgiving and so loving that He blessed our simple understanding ... in spite of ourselves.
Let's not get critical of each other, this is a valid debate and I also have pondered this subject with many others I knew even in "twi daze" and always had problems with it.
I think the point here is VP tried to make formulas for many things in the word. You can't treat the Word like a math book.
For example it does not say in the Word believing equals receiving. He made that up.
I think for many of these ideas VP came up with it was part of the "VP show". "
Here ye, here ye, step right up and see this magic formual that no one has known since the beginning of time". Just hand over your money.
Where in the Word does it say that if you "want" something and you are "believing" for it as long as you have your needs in line with what you want, you are going to get it. Doesn't make one bit of sense.
God promises to meet our needs, he says he knows what we need before we even ask. So why don't we get rid of all the "hocus pocus" and just simply pray and thank God for what he does and will do for us.
In the pfal class VP held one hand above the other while he was saying "if your needs are down here and your wants are way up here, it won't flow", but when he actually said "your needs and wants must be parallel" his hands were side by side, forming an 8" line which happened to be "parallel" to his bible, which was directly underneath his hands.
Here's what vpw said vpw meant...
=========
Orange Book, pg-19 to 21.
"If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life, we must not only know what is available, how to receive it,
and what to do with it; but we must also get our needs and wants parallel. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy,
we are not balanced. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy, we are not balanced. If our wants are light and
our needs are heavy, we will never get an answer. When we believe, we get results in prayer if our needs and our wants are equal.
Look at Matthew 18:19.
...If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
In the Greek text the word 'agree' is ' symphonized'. If the two people agree, they are in harmony; they have their needs and wants
parallel because 'it shall be done.' John 14:13 is another tremendous truth.
John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Again, whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, having our needs and wants parallel, he is going to do. In John 15:16 is another wonderful
promise.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
If we know what is available, how to receive it, what to do with it, and have our needs and wants parallel, then whatsoever
we shall ask shall be done unto us.
There is another promise in I John 5:14.
I John 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
If we have our needs and wants parallel, we can ask him anything according to His will. How can we know His will without knowing
His Word? His Word is His Will. "
======
"Sorry you have your brain turned off", but I stand behind vpw explaining what he meant.
Good-NESS! If VPW couldn't get a consistent definition of "needs and want's parallel" back when he parroted taught the class and wrote the collaterals, what does that tell you??!!!
He wanted us to validate his class by "making it our own" but he never made it his own to begin with.
Yep. But he sure managed to hatch out a bunch of junior parrots in the process. Us !!! And pretty soon we were all "believing for" things and "getting our needs and wants parallel" and ...
Polly wanna cracker?
Like I said earlier, the really sad problem was when we began to actually THINK in WAY-SPEAK, even though we didn't understand what a lot of it meant. Our lingo changed, and then our lives changed.
Yep. But he sure managed to hatch out a bunch of junior parrots in the process. Us !!! And pretty soon we were all "believing for" things and "getting our needs and wants parallel" and ...
Polly wanna cracker?
Like I said earlier, the really sad problem was when we began to actually THINK in WAY-SPEAK, even though we didn't understand what a lot of it meant. Our lingo changed, and then our lives changed.
hi this is my first time i would like to say, that i cannot find anything wrong with being positive and/or sayin bless you to people that were learning the same as myself and family. Right now the world could use alot of what we learned from the teachings of GODs word if this makes me a parrot ...so be it. sarckat
I think VP heard this needs and wants parallel stuff somewhere and decided to use it as if it was his own.
Problem is, I don't think he really understood whatever it was that he heard and that is why he was not able to convey it in a clear and concise manner.
It was not unclear because there was some great spiritual truth behind it.
It was unclear because he did not understand the logic of what he was trying to "teach".
Kinda like when a young child tells you a joke they have heard but don't really understand.
They leave out key points and key words and then wonder why it doesn't get the laughs it did when Daddy told it to Uncle Louie.
If it's so darned mathematically accurate, how come it's so hard to figure out what it's supposed to mean, even 40 years after it was first taught?
Oh, wait. Maybe I just need to "believe" to understand it.
Of course, that would also require that I want to "believe" to understand it. (in an parallel fashion.)
hi this is my first time i would like to say, that i cannot find anything wrong with being positive and/or sayin bless you to people that were learning the same as myself and family. Right now the world could use alot of what we learned from the teachings of GODs word if this makes me a parrot ...so be it. sarckat
Hello, sarckat.
Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with BEING POSITIVE.
Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with "saying bless you".
I, for one, am in favour of both, and I say "God bless" to people all the time.
(I like being specific about who I'd like to send the blessing,
and did back in twi as well.)
THAT's just fine.
None of that, however, has anything to do with the discussion at hand,
which is about MISTAKES and ERRORS in what we were taught concerning "believing."
Being positive or saying "bless you" would not make you a "parrot."
I'd say there's any number of GSC'ers who do that and are not "parrots."
Let me explain what the "parrot" thing refers to.
A parrot is a bird that can repeat phrases or sounds it hears.
A parrot DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what it repeats back-it just repeats back sounds.
If a person hears teachings, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THEM and just repeats them back,
then there's no LEARNING or UNDERSTANDING conveyed,
just the repeating back of sounds.
If you've done some serious Bible study on a subject- and not just "reread the twi
materials until I agree"- and concluded that the twi position was correct-
that's real thought. (I've concluded they were right a number of times.)
If you're still repeating what twi said, and never took a hard look to see if
the Bible agrees with this statement,
then, sadly, you're not thinking on your own, you're just repeating back
what you were told without understanding,
just like a parrot.
BTW,
there's a sticky topic pinned up top with a welcome and some advice.
I'd recommend reading it.
Then again, I'm a little biased. (I wrote the first post.)
Lots of threads here about "believing" and misuse of the word. Shifra's tie-in on this thread with tithing is interesting. I still see/hear it taught... "I put in (into the horn of plenty) $x and the next day yyy sent me a check for $xxxx;" or "I put in $x and the next day got a new job." Worse: "I hadn't got much money so I put in $x and believed God to give money back to me."
That sounds like a CONTRACT at best: I give you $10 but you have to give me $100 back. That's not believing. But some of those same fold don't see it as a contract the other way: God gives you $100 therefore you must give $10 back. Either way, it's straight-out contract law.
Not quite the attitude of gratitude/thankfulness with which tithing (or any thing) should be given.
But really so much of this now smacks of BRIBERY. As if a man could bribe God.
God LOVES to bless us and give us the desires of our hearts. He does know what our needs are, financial and otherwise.
(edited cos it didn't read quite right in the contract bit)
Needs and wants? Maybe VPW got the idea from the Rolling Stones.
"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need." (Only if you tithe, that is, because God's love is CONDITIONAL. Huh?)
And how does this line up with the stuff VPW and LCM actually HAD?
Like -
Their cars ... even planes?
Their women?
Their hunting dogs?
Their auditorium?
Their power over thousands of people?
ETC
ETC
Wants or needs ... or ... who cares? It was wrong, in theory and practice. Sarckat, do you see how messed up this is? Sorry to welcome you aboard with an argument. Seriously, welcome anyhow.
Seems like the needs and wants thingy provides a pretty "good" reason to show why one person has "results" and another apparently does not..
And of course then comes the condemnation of why you didn't "receive" what you "believed" for.. All the while having the big wigs look down on you as some worthless pile of human dust that couldn't figure out the basics to this math equation that was so simple, even a caveman could do it, err I mean a MOG could do it.. I mean, he had it all, must have been his believing!
But like some have mentioned here, these rules, guidelines, and math formulas really, in all honesty, end up replacing the true heart that God desires..
I remember they mentioned these rules and saying verbatim, it's just like a math formula, do this and do that, and you get the same results.. So I guess God is just some jank in the box and I turn the crank and out pops my wish!! Gee... What a farce..
Where's the heart of love and care between a Father and a son.. Are we not his kids? Is he not our father, so why would we think our Father in heaven is just a cookie jar in heaven we can take from at will as long as we abide by these senseless rules... He's a living God, for Christ's sake.. And He's our living Father desires a real and living relationship with his kids. Willing to care for our needs, but not as some third party business that gives you dividends because you own stock in them, but because his love for us and our love to come to him and ask (pray)..
They honor me with their lips and mental ascents (aka believing), but their hearts are far from me..
I have no doubt God is willing to do exceedingly abundant above all, I trust Him to care for my very life and livelihood. But I don't expect him to give me everything I desire just cause I follow some man made math formula and crossed my t's and dotted my i's correctly. The heart was left out, the relationship removed, and henceforth there was nothing really to trust in but some dead man man's formulas...
My heart goes out to the many people whose "believing" was insufficient (according to TWI) to prevent flat tires and rainstorms and illnesses. As a friend to lots of TWI folks through the years, it was difficult enough - as it would be with any friend - to endure hardship with them ... BUT ... if a hardship occurred to a family in TWI, not only were they faced with the hardship itself, but also with the condemnation from Way leaders because their "believing" was bad.
I remember a Corps family who lost a child, and another in which the wife passed away. These families were discussed by name during a Corps Night, and rather than offering a prayer of compassion, LCM just RIPPED these grief-stricken people to shreds, blasting their poor believing and of course banishing them from TWI forever.
Sick as it was, this behavior was totally logical if you actually think that the "believer" controls God. If, on the other hand, you recognize that GOD Himself is the One in control, then it would be ridiculous to condemn the "believer" when something goes wrong.
Get it? The actual DOCTRINE evolved from the terminology of "believing FOR" something or "believing TO do or get something". Whatever happened to just BELIEVING GOD? Talk about idolatry!
But, of course, if something bad happened to leadership, it was because they were so very very good, that the Adversary had attacked them. Good grief.
Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with BEING POSITIVE.
Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with "saying bless you".
I, for one, am in favour of both, and I say "God bless" to people all the time.
(I like being specific about who I'd like to send the blessing,
and did back in twi as well.)
THAT's just fine.
None of that, however, has anything to do with the discussion at hand,
which is about MISTAKES and ERRORS in what we were taught concerning "believing."
Being positive or saying "bless you" would not make you a "parrot."
I'd say there's any number of GSC'ers who do that and are not "parrots."
Let me explain what the "parrot" thing refers to.
A parrot is a bird that can repeat phrases or sounds it hears.
A parrot DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what it repeats back-it just repeats back sounds.
If a person hears teachings, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THEM and just repeats them back,
then there's no LEARNING or UNDERSTANDING conveyed,
just the repeating back of sounds.
If you've done some serious Bible study on a subject- and not just "reread the twi
materials until I agree"- and concluded that the twi position was correct-
that's real thought. (I've concluded they were right a number of times.)
If you're still repeating what twi said, and never took a hard look to see if
the Bible agrees with this statement,
then, sadly, you're not thinking on your own, you're just repeating back
what you were told without understanding,
just like a parrot.
BTW,
there's a sticky topic pinned up top with a welcome and some advice.
I'd recommend reading it.
Then again, I'm a little biased. (I wrote the first post.)
thank you for clarifying all that,GOD has shown me much and his word is the truth . been away awhile but am now back!... i am alittle confused about the sticky topic, cannot find it. sarckat
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Shifra
Nobody except Way people say things like this: "I am believing to go on vacation" or "I am believing for a new car". Barf. Gag. I still catch myself talking like this sometimes, and I see it on G
Shifra
My heart goes out to the many people whose "believing" was insufficient (according to TWI) to prevent flat tires and rainstorms and illnesses. As a friend to lots of TWI folks through the years, it w
OldSkool
Ima be leaving now
doojable
Sigh.... there is so much wrong with what we were taught...
I've likened those five keys to a set of conditions (remember we were taught that God is not a respecter of persons but He IS a respecter of conditions ;)) :
(The following is example only!)
Suppose I promise my child that if she meets 5 conditions she will not only have some money but she will get to spend it as she pleases. She does this repeatedly and one day announces to me that she has saved up a couple of thousand dollars and knows how she can turn it into hundreds of thousands...
The trouble is that she wants to buy some cocaine that she can turn around for a hefty sum.
Now all agreements go out the window! I'm still her mother and I have responsibility for her well being and safety, not to mention her moral fiber. The bigger and overall agreement takes precedent - that being the "agreement" that I made when I decided to become a parent in the first place - to love and protect my children and help them grow into healthy adults.
I don't know about everyone, but all too many times I observed believers trying to get all their ducks in a row with those 5 keys to believing, but still not receive. I would try to explain to them that God, as their Heavenly Father, still had a say in their life - regardless of the conditions met.
The response was always the same, "But, but, but I did everything right!"
God can not be manipulated into answering our beck and call - keys or no keys. Sometimes the answer to prayer is a simple, heartfelt, "No."
THAT relationship was never really taught in TWI - the fact that He is God and we are not...
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WordWolf
Well, since the Orange Book mentions NOTHING of this 'parallel to the Bible' stuff,
it's interesting-maybe- but certainly is not what he MEANT to teach.
=========
Orange Book, pg-19 to 21.
"If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life, we must not only know what is available, how to receive it,
and what to do with it; but we must also get our needs and wants parallel. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy,
we are not balanced. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy, we are not balanced. If our wants are light and
our needs are heavy, we will never get an answer. When we believe, we get results in prayer if our needs and our wants are equal.
Look at Matthew 18:19.
...If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
In the Greek text the word 'agree' is ' symphonized'. If the two people agree, they are in harmony; they have their needs and wants
parallel because 'it shall be done.' John 14:13 is another tremendous truth.
John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Again, whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, having our needs and wants parallel, he is going to do. In John 15:16 is another wonderful
promise.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
If we know what is available, how to receive it, what to do with it, and have our needs and wants parallel, then whatsoever
we shall ask shall be done unto us.
There is another promise in I John 5:14.
I John 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
If we have our needs and wants parallel, we can ask him anything according to His will. How can we know His will without knowing
His Word? His Word is His Will. "
======
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Shifra
Tithing fits into this discussion, because it was - and still is - a Godly principle which lots of folks (including myself) have practiced for a long time. And yet, despite its age-old merit, even tithing was taught in a self-serving and God-minimizing way.
Give God ten percent, and get back a lot more.
It was the ultimate casino game. It was like a fail-proof stock market strategy. And where was God in all of this? Where was our love for God?
For years I tithed, as a necessity - not only to be accepted within the Way, but also to ensure that I could pay my bills. It was heresy indeed!
Even after I was out of TWI, I continued to tithe, and still do. But I am starting to evolve away from that old motive. Every now and then, I still find myself returning to that magical thinking - that tithing is my good luck charm, rather than an expression of my gratitude to God. In the New Testament, Jesus said that when we give to the least his children, we give to him. I am learning (re-learning) that the recipient is God, even if I'm just giving money to the local homeless shelter or to a friend who needs help. And that's good enough, whether I get anything back or not.
Anyhow, the underlying flavor of "Believing" among TWI people became more of a superstition. Push this button and God will do this. Pull that lever and God will do that.
Interesting that God is so forgiving and so loving that He blessed our simple understanding ... in spite of ourselves.
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waysider
There's lots of good stuff here on GSC regarding the subject of tithing and how it relates to this day and time.
This is one particular area that TWI twisted and distorted to the max. in order to serve their own purposes.
I highly recommend looking at some of the articles on it here.
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johniam
I'm sorry you guys have your brains turned off, but I stand by what I posted.
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polar bear
This is not just a "Dear Jon" letter-
Let's not get critical of each other, this is a valid debate and I also have pondered this subject with many others I knew even in "twi daze" and always had problems with it.
I think the point here is VP tried to make formulas for many things in the word. You can't treat the Word like a math book.
For example it does not say in the Word believing equals receiving. He made that up.
I think for many of these ideas VP came up with it was part of the "VP show". "
Here ye, here ye, step right up and see this magic formual that no one has known since the beginning of time". Just hand over your money.
Where in the Word does it say that if you "want" something and you are "believing" for it as long as you have your needs in line with what you want, you are going to get it. Doesn't make one bit of sense.
God promises to meet our needs, he says he knows what we need before we even ask. So why don't we get rid of all the "hocus pocus" and just simply pray and thank God for what he does and will do for us.
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Ham
Pretty big assumption..
I think that most people aren't smart enough to know what they really need a lot of the time.. myself included.
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WordWolf
Despite vpw saying-in print-something completely different....
Here's what you said vpw meant...
Here's what vpw said vpw meant...
=========
Orange Book, pg-19 to 21.
"If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life, we must not only know what is available, how to receive it,
and what to do with it; but we must also get our needs and wants parallel. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy,
we are not balanced. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy, we are not balanced. If our wants are light and
our needs are heavy, we will never get an answer. When we believe, we get results in prayer if our needs and our wants are equal.
Look at Matthew 18:19.
...If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
In the Greek text the word 'agree' is ' symphonized'. If the two people agree, they are in harmony; they have their needs and wants
parallel because 'it shall be done.' John 14:13 is another tremendous truth.
John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Again, whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, having our needs and wants parallel, he is going to do. In John 15:16 is another wonderful
promise.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
If we know what is available, how to receive it, what to do with it, and have our needs and wants parallel, then whatsoever
we shall ask shall be done unto us.
There is another promise in I John 5:14.
I John 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
If we have our needs and wants parallel, we can ask him anything according to His will. How can we know His will without knowing
His Word? His Word is His Will. "
======
"Sorry you have your brain turned off", but I stand behind vpw explaining what he meant.
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doojable
Good-NESS! If VPW couldn't get a consistent definition of "needs and want's parallel" back when he parroted taught the class and wrote the collaterals, what does that tell you??!!!
He wanted us to validate his class by "making it our own" but he never made it his own to begin with.
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Shifra
Yep. But he sure managed to hatch out a bunch of junior parrots in the process. Us !!! And pretty soon we were all "believing for" things and "getting our needs and wants parallel" and ...
Polly wanna cracker?
Like I said earlier, the really sad problem was when we began to actually THINK in WAY-SPEAK, even though we didn't understand what a lot of it meant. Our lingo changed, and then our lives changed.
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sarckat
hi this is my first time i would like to say, that i cannot find anything wrong with being positive and/or sayin bless you to people that were learning the same as myself and family. Right now the world could use alot of what we learned from the teachings of GODs word if this makes me a parrot ...so be it. sarckat
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waysider
Tell ya what I really think.
I think VP heard this needs and wants parallel stuff somewhere and decided to use it as if it was his own.
Problem is, I don't think he really understood whatever it was that he heard and that is why he was not able to convey it in a clear and concise manner.
It was not unclear because there was some great spiritual truth behind it.
It was unclear because he did not understand the logic of what he was trying to "teach".
Kinda like when a young child tells you a joke they have heard but don't really understand.
They leave out key points and key words and then wonder why it doesn't get the laughs it did when Daddy told it to Uncle Louie.
If it's so darned mathematically accurate, how come it's so hard to figure out what it's supposed to mean, even 40 years after it was first taught?
Oh, wait. Maybe I just need to "believe" to understand it.
Of course, that would also require that I want to "believe" to understand it. (in an parallel fashion.)
I'm "willing" to do that.
Sigh----------If only I were "able" to.
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WordWolf
Hello, sarckat.
Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with BEING POSITIVE.
Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with "saying bless you".
I, for one, am in favour of both, and I say "God bless" to people all the time.
(I like being specific about who I'd like to send the blessing,
and did back in twi as well.)
THAT's just fine.
None of that, however, has anything to do with the discussion at hand,
which is about MISTAKES and ERRORS in what we were taught concerning "believing."
Being positive or saying "bless you" would not make you a "parrot."
I'd say there's any number of GSC'ers who do that and are not "parrots."
Let me explain what the "parrot" thing refers to.
A parrot is a bird that can repeat phrases or sounds it hears.
A parrot DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what it repeats back-it just repeats back sounds.
If a person hears teachings, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THEM and just repeats them back,
then there's no LEARNING or UNDERSTANDING conveyed,
just the repeating back of sounds.
If you've done some serious Bible study on a subject- and not just "reread the twi
materials until I agree"- and concluded that the twi position was correct-
that's real thought. (I've concluded they were right a number of times.)
If you're still repeating what twi said, and never took a hard look to see if
the Bible agrees with this statement,
then, sadly, you're not thinking on your own, you're just repeating back
what you were told without understanding,
just like a parrot.
BTW,
there's a sticky topic pinned up top with a welcome and some advice.
I'd recommend reading it.
Then again, I'm a little biased. (I wrote the first post.)
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Twinky
Lots of threads here about "believing" and misuse of the word. Shifra's tie-in on this thread with tithing is interesting. I still see/hear it taught... "I put in (into the horn of plenty) $x and the next day yyy sent me a check for $xxxx;" or "I put in $x and the next day got a new job." Worse: "I hadn't got much money so I put in $x and believed God to give money back to me."
That sounds like a CONTRACT at best: I give you $10 but you have to give me $100 back. That's not believing. But some of those same fold don't see it as a contract the other way: God gives you $100 therefore you must give $10 back. Either way, it's straight-out contract law.
Not quite the attitude of gratitude/thankfulness with which tithing (or any thing) should be given.
But really so much of this now smacks of BRIBERY. As if a man could bribe God.
God LOVES to bless us and give us the desires of our hearts. He does know what our needs are, financial and otherwise.
(edited cos it didn't read quite right in the contract bit)
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Shifra
Needs and wants? Maybe VPW got the idea from the Rolling Stones.
"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need." (Only if you tithe, that is, because God's love is CONDITIONAL. Huh?)
And how does this line up with the stuff VPW and LCM actually HAD?
Like -
Their cars ... even planes?
Their women?
Their hunting dogs?
Their auditorium?
Their power over thousands of people?
ETC
ETC
Wants or needs ... or ... who cares? It was wrong, in theory and practice. Sarckat, do you see how messed up this is? Sorry to welcome you aboard with an argument. Seriously, welcome anyhow.
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Ham
I dunno.. I think that's really putting God in a rather small box..
The "never" is what gets my attention here..
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Ham
Seems like the needs and wants thingy provides a pretty "good" reason to show why one person has "results" and another apparently does not..
the vicster got his plane, motorcycle, auditorium.. etc. etc..
"well.. he MUST have had his need and want parallel..."
"where's MY plane? I don't need it very much, so I just want it a little. Needs and wants parallel.. what gives?"
I think this is when the other guy starts stuttering..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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TrustAndObey
And of course then comes the condemnation of why you didn't "receive" what you "believed" for.. All the while having the big wigs look down on you as some worthless pile of human dust that couldn't figure out the basics to this math equation that was so simple, even a caveman could do it, err I mean a MOG could do it.. I mean, he had it all, must have been his believing!
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TrustAndObey
But like some have mentioned here, these rules, guidelines, and math formulas really, in all honesty, end up replacing the true heart that God desires..
I remember they mentioned these rules and saying verbatim, it's just like a math formula, do this and do that, and you get the same results.. So I guess God is just some jank in the box and I turn the crank and out pops my wish!! Gee... What a farce..
Where's the heart of love and care between a Father and a son.. Are we not his kids? Is he not our father, so why would we think our Father in heaven is just a cookie jar in heaven we can take from at will as long as we abide by these senseless rules... He's a living God, for Christ's sake.. And He's our living Father desires a real and living relationship with his kids. Willing to care for our needs, but not as some third party business that gives you dividends because you own stock in them, but because his love for us and our love to come to him and ask (pray)..
They honor me with their lips and mental ascents (aka believing), but their hearts are far from me..
I have no doubt God is willing to do exceedingly abundant above all, I trust Him to care for my very life and livelihood. But I don't expect him to give me everything I desire just cause I follow some man made math formula and crossed my t's and dotted my i's correctly. The heart was left out, the relationship removed, and henceforth there was nothing really to trust in but some dead man man's formulas...
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doojable
...and OUR ability to follow a "recipe." <_<
As long as we had to trust in our ability we really were not resting in God.
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Ham
for "some' of us, our ability to follow a recipe, a cake does not make..
final result looks like something that came out of a mine..
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Shifra
My heart goes out to the many people whose "believing" was insufficient (according to TWI) to prevent flat tires and rainstorms and illnesses. As a friend to lots of TWI folks through the years, it was difficult enough - as it would be with any friend - to endure hardship with them ... BUT ... if a hardship occurred to a family in TWI, not only were they faced with the hardship itself, but also with the condemnation from Way leaders because their "believing" was bad.
I remember a Corps family who lost a child, and another in which the wife passed away. These families were discussed by name during a Corps Night, and rather than offering a prayer of compassion, LCM just RIPPED these grief-stricken people to shreds, blasting their poor believing and of course banishing them from TWI forever.
Sick as it was, this behavior was totally logical if you actually think that the "believer" controls God. If, on the other hand, you recognize that GOD Himself is the One in control, then it would be ridiculous to condemn the "believer" when something goes wrong.
Get it? The actual DOCTRINE evolved from the terminology of "believing FOR" something or "believing TO do or get something". Whatever happened to just BELIEVING GOD? Talk about idolatry!
But, of course, if something bad happened to leadership, it was because they were so very very good, that the Adversary had attacked them. Good grief.
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sarckat
thank you for clarifying all that,GOD has shown me much and his word is the truth . been away awhile but am now back!... i am alittle confused about the sticky topic, cannot find it. sarckat
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WordWolf
It's labeled as "pinned". It's what's normally CALLED a "sticky", just labeled differently.
The title is "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe" and it's up above the other topics here.
You can click on it here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913
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