For various reasons, I show up where I'm loved and not where I'm judged and challenged. Sometimes it's just because I'm not ready to deal with it. Sometimes it's because the people who are "challenging" me and "holding me accountible" have their heads up their own azzes.
Are these bits and pieces that you have been posting parts of the "code of conduct" that each and every one of the CES/STFI leaders pledged to abide by???
If that's the "code of conduct" they all pledged to abide by then they... well ...they obviously haven't so they should just step down.
There doesn't need to be any public explanation... it's quite obvious that they have not kept their vow, they've broken the trust that is needed to be effective leaders.
If they want to "stay on" as leaders it would seem that they need to make some sort of similar public proclamation as to what went on and how they're going to keep it from happening again... SOMEWHERE... anywhere...
How can they hope for anyone to trust them otherwise?
If they're afraid that by "going public" it will ruin the ministry... then maybe, just maybe, that's as it should be.
DWBH, Are these bits and pieces that you have been posting parts of the "code of conduct" that each and every one of the CES/STFI leaders pledged to abide by???
If that's the "code of conduct" they all pledged to abide by then they... well ...they obviously haven't so they should just step down.
There doesn't need to be any public explanation... it's quite obvious that they have not kept their vow, they've broken the trust that is needed to be effective leaders.
If they want to "stay on" as leaders it would seem that they need to make some sort of similar public proclamation as to what went on and how they're going to keep it from happening again... SOMEWHERE... anywhere...
How can they hope for anyone to trust them otherwise?
If they're afraid that by "going public" it will ruin the ministry... then maybe, just maybe, that's as it should be.
I would say that it's not a matter of being afraid of "going public". I would say it's just simply none of the public's business. John has invited those who care for him to email him with questions. Even so, that is no guarantee that all your questions will be answered. Some things are just no one else's business. I don't know why some of you don't "get it".
HI AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.........I WAS HOPING TO FIND A POST HERE FROM YOU GUYS TODAY..............HAVE YOU SEEN THIS THREAD ON YOUR FORUM YET??.....................THERE ARE MANY FOLKS STILL WONDERING WHAT YOUR ANSWERS MIGHT BE!....................
I will actively work to manifest the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22,23) as the basic godly attitudes and character traits that ought to govern my life, and give particular attention to those traits that are most difficult for me to evidence. I will not follow my “nature” into sin, making excuses and rationalizing my inappropriate behavior, but will live by the power of the spirit to obey the Word of God.
LOVE, JOY, PEACE, GENTLENESS, MEEKNESS , TEMPERANCE, FAITH, GOODNESS AND LONGSUFFERING...............ANY ONE OR ANY COMBINATION OF THESE WONDERFUL FRUITS WOULD PROVIDE YOU WITH "APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR" TO ENABLE A RESPONSE OF SOME KIND TO THE QUESTIONS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD...............NO EXCUSES NECESSARY!......................THANKS FOR MAKING YOUR PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT A LIVING REALITY HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE!.......STILL LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY!..............................................PEACE.
For various reasons, I show up where I'm loved and not where I'm judged and challenged. Sometimes it's just because I'm not ready to deal with it. Sometimes it's because the people who are "challenging" me and "holding me accountible" have their heads up their own azzes.
I suppose that if I weren't ready to "deal with it", then I wouldn't be trying to recruit people and sell my books in their "hang out" to begin with...but then again, I'm not afraid of honest confrontation. The path of least resistance is to find a place where people will smile and say "bless you" rather than to hold you accountable for your own words and actions. I never asked John Lynn to air his dirty laudry at the GreaseSpot cafe...that was HIS choice...
When he was trying to sell his wares here, we didn't have our heads up our azzes...we were potential "clients"...but now that we are holding him accountable for his own words, we have our heads up our azzes...interesting.
anotherDan...why is it that you come across as being pious to me?
Groucho, you make some valid points, and how you view me is up to you, as is how you view what DWBH is doing, and what John Lynn is doing.
I would be pleased, by the way, if I was indeed pious. You apparently meant it as a judgment, though, that I seem to you to have a put-on pious appearance, without the substance of piety.
“My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is]a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.” (Jas 3:1-2 AV)
“Let not many [of you] become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many [ways.] If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.” (Jas 3:1-2 NAS95)
“Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.” (Jas 3:1-2 NIVUS)
This is often quoted in defense of the idea that teachers/leaders are "held to a higher standard." I'm not sure I agree with that any more. Perhaps that's what it does mean, that they will be judged "more strictly." But I think that that may be reading something into verse 1 that isn't there. Perhaps they are held to the SAME standard, but judged "more harshly" because they affect so many other people.
“"And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.” (Mr 9:42 Nas)
Funny, the people who teach that sorta let the "little ones" off the hook, as if they're judged by a lower standard. Is that right?
On another thread, someone implied that another GSer was a "nazi" simply because he'd been in the Corps at one time. Guilt by association. Maybe the accused did get caught up at times in ugly attitudes that wafted through the ministry and the Corps. Same thing happens here, you know. It's cool to judge leaders at the GSC. Protector of the people, you know. Hot stuff. Champion of the cause. Hold their feet to the fire. Power to the people.
Way Corps and GSers, Catholics and wiccans -- I kinda think we'll all be held to the same standard. If we teach, is our teaching true? If we judge, is our judgment true? Whatever we do will be put to the test, and whatever remains after being tested will result in our reward. Everything else will be "burned." How Dr. Wierwille or Groucho or or John Lynn or anotherDan will fare is yet to be fully seen, though sometimes we get what we deserve right here and now. Obviously, the "crisis" at CES is the result of leadership who made mistakes, same as with the Way Ministry, and same as with Catholic priests/pedophiles. I've got no argument with that. That's good. And the CES leadership has apparently paid dearly for their education. People like DWBH may be an important part of the process. Dr. Juedes, Pawtucket, and others, I believe, have real ministries. Maybe DWBH is doing a great thing, here, too. My observation in my last post simply reflected a little pathos toward JL and others who are still, apparently, embattled, and, it would seem that it is because of their own blunders. They aired their dirty laundry here. They were harshly judged by people who posted. Maybe rightly in many ways. And now DWBH wants an update. My earlier comment in which I attempted to put myself in their shoes was intended to be frank, that when I am embattled myself, I sometimes avoid those who will judge me. That's all.
Your point, Groucho, about being unafraid of inquiry is a fine virtue. I've tried to live that way myself. My impression is the JL did his best in the earlier thread to do that. I don't think he was trolling for converts, but trying to be open with how he was trying to make sense of the mess. If DWBH wants to keep knocking on their door with his demands for an update and further examination and judgment by the GS community, that is up to him. As I've said before, I wouldn't respond. That would be my call.
Actually, Dan, there's quite a bit more to the story and this is, yet again, another situation that goes back further than perhaps you are aware of. :) It's a "not quite the whole story" kinda thing, imo. This CES section is not the only place or time that they have posted and/or "recruited" people and hawked their wares.
Again, that would take time to read through some old posts and old threads. If you genuinely want them and want to spend the time to read them so that you can pass your judgement from an informed position, I'll be glad to pull them together for you.
CES and STFI have a code of conduct on their website that DWBH is quoting from... looks to me like they are NOT honoring their own code of conduct. They started something here and they should finish it, imo.
These are very reasonable questions and, actually, should be answered on their websites, too, but they aren't even answered there.
How about answering just the following questions for us, ok??
1)what is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"?
2)what is your ministry's current position regarding karen ann graeser's understanding and application of the "gift ministry" of a prophet?. what have you learned or "unlearned" from mark and karen ann?
3)what do you believe your ministry's responsibility is to your followers regarding an explanation of "what went wrong"? what have you done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice?
4)how will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? in your opinion, have you or do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors or evangelists?
5)do you still publicly or privately promote the momentous "training" to your followers? if yes, why? if no, why not?
6)who is currently on your board of directors? your prophetic council?
7)do you foresee a cooperative relationship between ces/stf and the graeser's and the resner's in the near future? if yes, on what grounds? if no, why not?
i sure hope you don't refer me to your website(s)!......please have the love to post your responses here on your greasespot forum, won't you? i've checked your sites and have'nt found any info that even comes close to handling any of the questions above.........come on you guys.......don't "pull a twi" on us, ok??........
eagerly awaiting your replies!.................peace........
I hear that, Belle. Holding someone to their own code is quite reasonable.
I worry sometimes that I'm not clear enough in my communications. I'm sure I appear to waffle or send mixed signals. Things do not appear to me in black and white, but shades of gray, and I try to understand and be fair to all. I'm sure there is much more to the story, on "both sides." I'd rather not impose on your time to assemble further documentation on the conflict. I'd feel like I had to read it all! But I appreciate the offer, and I may ask you in the future if I feel I need more info on a certain topic, or this one. I've come to appreciate you the more I get to know you.
The supreme test of goodness is not in the greater but in the smaller incidents of our character and practice;
not what we are when standing in the searchlight of public scrutiny, but when we reach the firelight flicker
of our homes; not what we are when some clarion-call rings through the air, summoning us to fight for life
and liberty, but our attitude when we are called to sentry-duty in the grey morning, when the watch-fire is
burning low. It is impossible to be our best at the supreme moment if character is corroded and eaten into
by daily inconsistency, unfaithfulness, and besetting sin.
I would say that it's not a matter of being afraid of "going public". I would say it's just simply none of the public's business. John has invited those who care for him to email him with questions. Even so, that is no guarantee that all your questions will be answered. Some things are just no one else's business. I don't know why some of you don't "get it".
Larry,
I don't "get it" because IMO they publicly declared/vowed to abide by this code of conduct.
IMO they should then "air it out" in public to salvage what little credibility it is that they have left...
As I said, doesn't have to be here at GSC and in fact probably should be at their website... that would speak to "the public" that they have pledged this oath to.
IMO that seems only fair.
IMO (also) the 'give me a call or drop me an email' from JAL is another ploy to keep things on an uneven playing field.
IMO it's a public trust they've violated that needs to be dealt with publicly.
“My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is]a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.” (Jas 3:1-2 AV)
“Let not many [of you] become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many [ways.] If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.” (Jas 3:1-2 NAS95)
“Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.” (Jas 3:1-2 NIVUS)
This is often quoted in defense of the idea that teachers/leaders are "held to a higher standard." I'm not sure I agree with that any more. Perhaps that's what it does mean, that they will be judged "more strictly." But I think that that may be reading something into verse 1 that isn't there. Perhaps they are held to the SAME standard, but judged "more harshly" because they affect so many other people.
ADan,
I would agree with what you've said here... and IMO the "more harshly" part (concerning the leaders of CES) is why they SHOULD acknowledge it publicly and let their followers know publicly, from their own 'mouths' exactly what they've done to re-establish any credibility along the lines of their own code of conduct. But as far as I know, on their own site, they've never even really acknowledged that anything has occurred... much less how they have dealt with it.
I can't really speak for DWBH, but I'd bet that he'd be just as satisfied if they answered the questions or dealt with the issues on their own site... because it would surely end up being posted here as well...
The way I see it is that the longer they do not deal with it "in the open" the more their ministry will erode and the trust that their followers have in them will continue to erode... just as it has in TWI. It's a similar situation. Very similar. They should learn from that.
And concerning their "hawking their wares" here... many times their responses have included "we answer that in our book titled "" that is available online at "...
I hear that, Belle. Holding someone to their own code is quite reasonable.
I've come to appreciate you the more I get to know you.
Thanks, Dan. I do hope you mean that sincerely. I can grow on a person... kinda like mold, but it can happen.
And the feeling quite is mutual. :)
I really don't think DWBH is asking too much from John and Jeff. It just looks ridiculous the longer it goes on, imo. They really should respond, even if it's only to provide a link to where they've informed all of their people on their own website.
Otherwise, they've really only "used" Paw to further their own selfish agenda, again, imo.
HI AGAIN!......JEFF AND JOHN.........I'M STILL HERE..........WAITING.........PATIENTLY.............HOPING.............."CONSTANTLY ABIDING" SO TO SPEAK!................HOPE THESE CAPS ARE'NT TOO LOUD FOR YOU GUYS...........I'M JUST TRYING TO GET YOU GUYS TO HEAR ME!........THAT'S ALL.............LOOKING FORWARD TO A WORD......OR A FEW.......FROM YOU.............................PEACE
CINDERPELT......................hello!..........thanks for your post!..............allow me to reply............
"their replies to y'all last december were what became fodder for the lawsuits in the firstplace. so can you blame them for not adding to the stockpile?"
first of all, i was not a member or poster here until september,12, 2007. so, neither jeff nor john were replying to anything i asked them.........as a matter of fact, it was jeff, john and other ces members who asked pawtucket to post their letters, and, all the other "documents" of their's here at the greasespot!....he did not approach them......they approached him!.........and.......he graciously responded by setting up this very forum for them and ces....and all those who cared to follow the "events"as they unfolded here for all to see...........john posted another letter to all here at the spot besides the "epistle" of demember, 2006, in which he implied his willingness to respond to those who posted to him here........since ces' own site no longer provided "open" forums to it's own followers.......which at one time they had done.......why did they stop??...why have they not resumed their own open forum at any of their several websites??
secondly.......their "replies" here were not what " became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place".........it was their own foolish ministry of "personal prophecy" that started it all!........they turned on themselves and their followers......no one and no posters at the greasespot prompted any of their ridiculous lawsuits against themselves!......they were and are totally responsible for that themselves!!.......and, apparently, did'nt need or want anyone else's input or encouragement to get that silliness started.......they provided the "fodder" on their own by practicing their own doctrines!.........and, when folks here at the spot asked honest questions, they were told simply......."we have a book on all that which you can buy for"...........sooo.......let's give the credit for the "fodder" to whom it belongs.......the ces leadership themselves........and stop trying to blame "us" for their behavior!!
thirdly..........the reason i am asking jeff and john to reply here, is because, it was one of them who called me last winter, and asked me to "lurk" at the greasespot cafe to see everything they posted here........starting with john's letter of 12/2006...........to catch up on everything happening in their ministry.......and, then, to "please" get back to them and let them know what i thought about it all.........well, there were more pressing matters in my life requiring my attention at that time.........but i finally got to it in mid-august of this year, and i spent 3 weeks reading all the "stuff" here on this ces forum!........which is what prompted me to become a member here so that i might post my thoughts in this ces forum..........i have yet to post "what i think" about all of this..........but i have posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions of someone who asked me what i think!!.......i am responding to that request with a few questions of my own.....on a forum set up for them, at their request and specifically for their use!............i am in no way "adding to the stockpile" of anything!.....let alone their banal legal squabbles!
fourthly............i am not asking them to alter their lives to include "multiple daily visits to the cafe".........i am simply providing them a chance to reply to honest questions i have asked in a forum provided for them here at the greasespot..........a forum they asked me to read........a forum they've used before...........my questions are honest and polite..............so,..........what's the problem, cinderpelt???....................and, btw,.....thanks for your concern about my cardiovascular health..........i am normotensive and usually in good humor..........enjoying my life and job enormously!!...........so, no thanks on the chill pill..........i prefer that "jagged little pill" alanis sings about when i'm posting here..............seems that one's a bit too tough for you to swallow though, cinderpelt!!.............peace.
imho, a minister worth their salt can and does address and engage and respond to the public that is OUTSIDE of their exclusive congregation of friendlies.
not that varying degrees of private and exclusive meetings are wrong...just that there are other notes on the ole flute...and much bigger fields of love and attention
such salty ministers will have the capacity, will and skill to engage in some form of dialogue (not sermon) with other denominations, religions, beliefs (and "non-beliefs").
not that there is anything wrong with it, but inviting people to private one-on-one conversations is nowhere near the same kinda thing.
a wild suggestion: start with a 2-hour podcast with ground-rules
no, they are not obligated to respond to requests
one can try to stay in the kiddy-pool as long as they want before moving out of cult ... and into culture
GOOD EVENING JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.......I'M HERE AGAIN HOPING TO SPOT A REPLY FROM YOU TO THE QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED................ONCE AGAIN,.......THERE IS'NT ONE!!......................WHY?
I will do good to all men, seeking opportunities to be of service and show the love of God that dwells in me. But I will be especially good to my fellow Christians, recognizing that they are God’s people whom He has graced as my equals. I will do my personal best to be united with them against our common foe, in accordance with the common standard of God’s Word and the one spirit that empowers us all.
I DO NOT PRESUME TO BE YOUR "EQUAL".............HOWEVER, AS I'VE STATED BEFORE, I AM A CHRISTIAN.......AS ARE MANY FELLOW GREASESPOTTERS...............MANY ARE NOT......WE ARE, AFTER ALL, A JOYFULLY DIVERSE COMMUNITY OF MOSTLY "EX-WAYFERS" AS ARE YOU AND MOST, IF NOT ALL OF YOUR MINISTRY'S BOARD OF DIRECTORS!.............CERTAINLY, BY YOUR PUBLICLY DECLARED CODE OF CONDUCT, WE CAN BE CONSIDERED WORTHY OF YOUR BEING "ESPECIALLY GOOD" TO US, CAN'T WE??.................STILL HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU........THAT SURE WOULD BE "GOOD".........PEACE.
HELLO AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.......STOPPED BY YOUR FORUM HERE JUST BEFORE GAME 3 OF THE WORLD SERIES TONIGHT!........WAS HOPING TO SEE A POST FROM YOU GUYS, BUT STILL NONE!........THAT'S OK......I'M STILL WAITING TO SEE A POST FROM YOU SOON..........
We value the Body of Christ, and seek to be a catalyst for true unity among God’s people based on the truth of His Word, particularly the commandment to love one’s neighbor as oneself (Matt. 22:38).
I STILL CONSIDER MYSELF AS A "NEIGHBOR" OF YOUR'S HERE AT THE SPOT!.......I TOO AM A "MEMBER IN PARTICULAR" OF THE BODY OF CHRIST YOU SAY YOU VALUE!.....SOMEHOW, I GET THE FEELING YOU DON'T "VALUE" THIS NEIGHBORHOOD OF THE BODY OF CHRIST AS MUCH AS YOU DID EARLIER THIS YEAR WHEN YOU SPENT SO MUCH TIME WITH US...........WHY NOT?................STILL HOPING FOR A POST FROM YOU GUYS!........................PEACE.
HI THERE ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.......GAME 4 TONIGHT!.......THOUGHT YOU TWO MIGHT SLIP IN A POST BEFORE THE GAME.......BUT, AGAIN, NO POSTS FROM EITHER OF YOU!.......THERE'S STILL TIME.......
We value heart-felt obedience to God’s Word and encourage “Christ-like” behavior. We value the term “Christ-like,” as opposed to “Christian,” because the term “Christian” is colored by people’s experience of Christians more than by Jesus Christ himself.
DO YOU GUYS CONSIDER YOUR IGNORING OF YOUR FORUM HERE AT THE SPOT TO BE "CHRIST-LIKE BEHAVIOR"??...........WHAT DO YOU THINK CHRIST JESUS MIGHT CONSIDER YOUR "BEHAVIOR" HERE TO BE?........I GUESS YOU DO THINK OF YOURSELVES AS "CHRISTIANS" RATHER THAN MAKING AN ATTEMPT TO BE "CHRIST-LIKE" WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE!.............WE TOO "VALUE HEART-FELT OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WORD", ESPECIALLY BY SELF-PROCLAIMED "CHRIST-LIKE" LEADERS.......I ENCOURAGE YOU TO DEMONSTRATE THE VALUE YOU PLACE IN YOUR PREFERRED "TERM" BY POSTING A REPLY OR TWO HERE IN YOUR FORUM!............SURELY, THAT WOULD AFFORD YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXHIBIT SOME OF THAT "CHRIST-LIKE BEHAVIOR" YOU VALUE!...............THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY!................................PEACE.
I have to admire DWBH's tenacity...He continues to ask for a reasonable reply from these guys...I have to say, I'm not holding my breath waiting...
...I think there's a lot of folks who are willing to dialogue when it' in their interest. Allow me to join in with DWBH'c appeal for these guys to be responsible for their own words...their own code of conduct.
C'mon John...we want a response from you. Is that too much to ask?
HELLO AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN.................YET AGAIN, NO POST FROM YOU GUYS!...................YOU ARE BOTH STILL WITH CES/STF ARE'NT YOU?
Without being exclusive, elitist, or isolated, we value our own vision of Christian faith and practice, and therefore seek to be independent of any controlling influences from other Christian groups or denominations.
WELL THEN, HOW ABOUT A POST OR TWO??..........MY QUESTIONS SEEM TO ME TO AFFORD YOU EACH AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE YOUR CURRENT "VISION OF CHRISTIAN FAITH AND PRACTICE "!........I'M NOT TRYING TO "CONTROL" YOU!........SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE BEING "ELITIST" AND "ISOLATED" BY NOT JUST PROVIDING A SIMPLE REPLY HERE AT YOUR CES FORUM...............WHAT IS YOUR "OWN VISION" OF CHRIST-LIKE FAITH AND PRACTICE?...........IS YOUR OLD GREASESPOT NEIGHBORHOOD NOT EXCLUSIVE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO RETURN AND POST ONE MORE TIME??..............STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO SHARE SOME OF YOUR VALUES WITH US!.................PEACE.
It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, ....can't you muster up the common courtesy of tossing some current answers and facts our way??..the spot was good enough to let you "lay out" your concerns and opinions here...........don't you think we deserve to hear/read your current understanding and opinions on the issues YOU posted here??
How about answering just the following questions for us, ok??
1)what is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"?
2)what is your ministry's current position regarding karen ann graeser's understanding and application of the "gift ministry" of a prophet?. what have you learned or "unlearned" from mark and karen ann?
3)what do you believe your ministry's responsibility is to your followers regarding an explanation of "what went wrong"? what have you done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice?
4)how will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? in your opinion, have you or do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors or evangelists?
5)do you still publicly or privately promote the momentous "training" to your followers? if yes, why? if no, why not?
6)who is currently on your board of directors? your prophetic council?
7)do you foresee a cooperative relationship between ces/stf and the graeser's and the resner's in the near future? if yes, on what grounds? if no, why not?
i sure hope you don't refer me to your website(s)!......please have the love to post your responses here on your greasespot forum, won't you? i've checked your sites and have'nt found any info that even comes close to handling any of the questions above.........come on you guys.......don't "pull a twi" on us, ok??........
eagerly awaiting your replies!.................peace........
Heck, John and Jeff, why don't you at least answer these on your website and post here to let us know that you've followed through on your own code of conduct posted on your own website?
These are fair and reasonable questions. Questions I hope that anyone still involved with or considering involvement with your group does ask and demand answers to.
Without being exclusive, elitist, or isolated, we value our own vision of Christian faith and practice, and therefore seek to be independent of any controlling influences from other Christian groups or denominations.
You know... the answer may be found right there in what is written.
Alot of you should look at the posts you have written. I have never before seen such a group of venomous vipers before. Maybe you should look at yourselves before spewing forth.
Oh, I wonder how many are going to tell me some story of how they supposedly wronged you and absolutely destroyed your life and now you are living in poverty or in therapy six days a week (twice on saturdays) as a result of something they said. of course I don't know what I am talking about save your breath
Alot of you should look at the posts you have written. I have never before seen such a group of venomous vipers before. Maybe you should look at yourselves before spewing forth.
Oh, I wonder how many are going to tell me some story of how they supposedly wronged you and absolutely destroyed your life and now you are living in poverty or in therapy six days a week (twice on saturdays) as a result of something they said. of course I don't know what I am talking about save your breath
Naw...I got no stories. Those guys never did anything to me personally. I just think they ought to come back and finish what they started here...all things considered, it seems only right to me.
No they didn't do anything to me personally. I do have friends, close friends that got wrapped up in that racket , tho.
Ultimately, they owe me nothing, but they do owe their followers something. They did choose to bring their fight to these forums. Why not allow those who come here from their group the opportunity to also get the answers?
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
anotherDan
For various reasons, I show up where I'm loved and not where I'm judged and challenged. Sometimes it's just because I'm not ready to deal with it. Sometimes it's because the people who are "challenging" me and "holding me accountible" have their heads up their own azzes.
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Tom Strange
ADan, I don't understand....
DWBH,
Are these bits and pieces that you have been posting parts of the "code of conduct" that each and every one of the CES/STFI leaders pledged to abide by???
If that's the "code of conduct" they all pledged to abide by then they... well ...they obviously haven't so they should just step down.
There doesn't need to be any public explanation... it's quite obvious that they have not kept their vow, they've broken the trust that is needed to be effective leaders.
If they want to "stay on" as leaders it would seem that they need to make some sort of similar public proclamation as to what went on and how they're going to keep it from happening again... SOMEWHERE... anywhere...
How can they hope for anyone to trust them otherwise?
If they're afraid that by "going public" it will ruin the ministry... then maybe, just maybe, that's as it should be.
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Larry N Moore
I do.
I would say that it's not a matter of being afraid of "going public". I would say it's just simply none of the public's business. John has invited those who care for him to email him with questions. Even so, that is no guarantee that all your questions will be answered. Some things are just no one else's business. I don't know why some of you don't "get it".
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DontWorryBeHappy
HI AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.........I WAS HOPING TO FIND A POST HERE FROM YOU GUYS TODAY..............HAVE YOU SEEN THIS THREAD ON YOUR FORUM YET??.....................THERE ARE MANY FOLKS STILL WONDERING WHAT YOUR ANSWERS MIGHT BE!....................
I will actively work to manifest the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22,23) as the basic godly attitudes and character traits that ought to govern my life, and give particular attention to those traits that are most difficult for me to evidence. I will not follow my “nature” into sin, making excuses and rationalizing my inappropriate behavior, but will live by the power of the spirit to obey the Word of God.
LOVE, JOY, PEACE, GENTLENESS, MEEKNESS , TEMPERANCE, FAITH, GOODNESS AND LONGSUFFERING...............ANY ONE OR ANY COMBINATION OF THESE WONDERFUL FRUITS WOULD PROVIDE YOU WITH "APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR" TO ENABLE A RESPONSE OF SOME KIND TO THE QUESTIONS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD...............NO EXCUSES NECESSARY!......................THANKS FOR MAKING YOUR PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT A LIVING REALITY HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE!.......STILL LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY!..............................................PEACE.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I suppose that if I weren't ready to "deal with it", then I wouldn't be trying to recruit people and sell my books in their "hang out" to begin with...but then again, I'm not afraid of honest confrontation. The path of least resistance is to find a place where people will smile and say "bless you" rather than to hold you accountable for your own words and actions. I never asked John Lynn to air his dirty laudry at the GreaseSpot cafe...that was HIS choice...
When he was trying to sell his wares here, we didn't have our heads up our azzes...we were potential "clients"...but now that we are holding him accountable for his own words, we have our heads up our azzes...interesting.
anotherDan...why is it that you come across as being pious to me?
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anotherDan
Groucho, you make some valid points, and how you view me is up to you, as is how you view what DWBH is doing, and what John Lynn is doing.
I would be pleased, by the way, if I was indeed pious. You apparently meant it as a judgment, though, that I seem to you to have a put-on pious appearance, without the substance of piety.
This is often quoted in defense of the idea that teachers/leaders are "held to a higher standard." I'm not sure I agree with that any more. Perhaps that's what it does mean, that they will be judged "more strictly." But I think that that may be reading something into verse 1 that isn't there. Perhaps they are held to the SAME standard, but judged "more harshly" because they affect so many other people.
Funny, the people who teach that sorta let the "little ones" off the hook, as if they're judged by a lower standard. Is that right?
On another thread, someone implied that another GSer was a "nazi" simply because he'd been in the Corps at one time. Guilt by association. Maybe the accused did get caught up at times in ugly attitudes that wafted through the ministry and the Corps. Same thing happens here, you know. It's cool to judge leaders at the GSC. Protector of the people, you know. Hot stuff. Champion of the cause. Hold their feet to the fire. Power to the people.
Way Corps and GSers, Catholics and wiccans -- I kinda think we'll all be held to the same standard. If we teach, is our teaching true? If we judge, is our judgment true? Whatever we do will be put to the test, and whatever remains after being tested will result in our reward. Everything else will be "burned." How Dr. Wierwille or Groucho or or John Lynn or anotherDan will fare is yet to be fully seen, though sometimes we get what we deserve right here and now. Obviously, the "crisis" at CES is the result of leadership who made mistakes, same as with the Way Ministry, and same as with Catholic priests/pedophiles. I've got no argument with that. That's good. And the CES leadership has apparently paid dearly for their education. People like DWBH may be an important part of the process. Dr. Juedes, Pawtucket, and others, I believe, have real ministries. Maybe DWBH is doing a great thing, here, too. My observation in my last post simply reflected a little pathos toward JL and others who are still, apparently, embattled, and, it would seem that it is because of their own blunders. They aired their dirty laundry here. They were harshly judged by people who posted. Maybe rightly in many ways. And now DWBH wants an update. My earlier comment in which I attempted to put myself in their shoes was intended to be frank, that when I am embattled myself, I sometimes avoid those who will judge me. That's all.
Your point, Groucho, about being unafraid of inquiry is a fine virtue. I've tried to live that way myself. My impression is the JL did his best in the earlier thread to do that. I don't think he was trolling for converts, but trying to be open with how he was trying to make sense of the mess. If DWBH wants to keep knocking on their door with his demands for an update and further examination and judgment by the GS community, that is up to him. As I've said before, I wouldn't respond. That would be my call.
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Belle
Actually, Dan, there's quite a bit more to the story and this is, yet again, another situation that goes back further than perhaps you are aware of. :) It's a "not quite the whole story" kinda thing, imo. This CES section is not the only place or time that they have posted and/or "recruited" people and hawked their wares.
Again, that would take time to read through some old posts and old threads. If you genuinely want them and want to spend the time to read them so that you can pass your judgement from an informed position, I'll be glad to pull them together for you.
CES and STFI have a code of conduct on their website that DWBH is quoting from... looks to me like they are NOT honoring their own code of conduct. They started something here and they should finish it, imo.
These are very reasonable questions and, actually, should be answered on their websites, too, but they aren't even answered there.
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anotherDan
I hear that, Belle. Holding someone to their own code is quite reasonable.
I worry sometimes that I'm not clear enough in my communications. I'm sure I appear to waffle or send mixed signals. Things do not appear to me in black and white, but shades of gray, and I try to understand and be fair to all. I'm sure there is much more to the story, on "both sides." I'd rather not impose on your time to assemble further documentation on the conflict. I'd feel like I had to read it all! But I appreciate the offer, and I may ask you in the future if I feel I need more info on a certain topic, or this one. I've come to appreciate you the more I get to know you.
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Tom Strange
Larry,
I don't "get it" because IMO they publicly declared/vowed to abide by this code of conduct.
IMO they should then "air it out" in public to salvage what little credibility it is that they have left...
As I said, doesn't have to be here at GSC and in fact probably should be at their website... that would speak to "the public" that they have pledged this oath to.
IMO that seems only fair.
IMO (also) the 'give me a call or drop me an email' from JAL is another ploy to keep things on an uneven playing field.
IMO it's a public trust they've violated that needs to be dealt with publicly.
ADan,
I would agree with what you've said here... and IMO the "more harshly" part (concerning the leaders of CES) is why they SHOULD acknowledge it publicly and let their followers know publicly, from their own 'mouths' exactly what they've done to re-establish any credibility along the lines of their own code of conduct. But as far as I know, on their own site, they've never even really acknowledged that anything has occurred... much less how they have dealt with it.
I can't really speak for DWBH, but I'd bet that he'd be just as satisfied if they answered the questions or dealt with the issues on their own site... because it would surely end up being posted here as well...
The way I see it is that the longer they do not deal with it "in the open" the more their ministry will erode and the trust that their followers have in them will continue to erode... just as it has in TWI. It's a similar situation. Very similar. They should learn from that.
And concerning their "hawking their wares" here... many times their responses have included "we answer that in our book titled "" that is available online at "...
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Belle
And the feeling quite is mutual. :)
I really don't think DWBH is asking too much from John and Jeff. It just looks ridiculous the longer it goes on, imo. They really should respond, even if it's only to provide a link to where they've informed all of their people on their own website.
Otherwise, they've really only "used" Paw to further their own selfish agenda, again, imo.
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doojable
I just thought that this warranted repeating.
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sirguessalot
a confession of my personal fantasies...
imho, a minister worth their salt can and does address and engage and respond to the public that is OUTSIDE of their exclusive congregation of friendlies.
not that varying degrees of private and exclusive meetings are wrong...just that there are other notes on the ole flute...and much bigger fields of love and attention
such salty ministers will have the capacity, will and skill to engage in some form of dialogue (not sermon) with other denominations, religions, beliefs (and "non-beliefs").
not that there is anything wrong with it, but inviting people to private one-on-one conversations is nowhere near the same kinda thing.
a wild suggestion: start with a 2-hour podcast with ground-rules
no, they are not obligated to respond to requests
one can try to stay in the kiddy-pool as long as they want before moving out of cult ... and into culture
...just sayin...as i pass on by
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Tom Strange
good thoughts there +odd... good thoughts!
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DontWorryBeHappy
GOOD EVENING JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.......I'M HERE AGAIN HOPING TO SPOT A REPLY FROM YOU TO THE QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED................ONCE AGAIN,.......THERE IS'NT ONE!!......................WHY?
I will do good to all men, seeking opportunities to be of service and show the love of God that dwells in me. But I will be especially good to my fellow Christians, recognizing that they are God’s people whom He has graced as my equals. I will do my personal best to be united with them against our common foe, in accordance with the common standard of God’s Word and the one spirit that empowers us all.
I DO NOT PRESUME TO BE YOUR "EQUAL".............HOWEVER, AS I'VE STATED BEFORE, I AM A CHRISTIAN.......AS ARE MANY FELLOW GREASESPOTTERS...............MANY ARE NOT......WE ARE, AFTER ALL, A JOYFULLY DIVERSE COMMUNITY OF MOSTLY "EX-WAYFERS" AS ARE YOU AND MOST, IF NOT ALL OF YOUR MINISTRY'S BOARD OF DIRECTORS!.............CERTAINLY, BY YOUR PUBLICLY DECLARED CODE OF CONDUCT, WE CAN BE CONSIDERED WORTHY OF YOUR BEING "ESPECIALLY GOOD" TO US, CAN'T WE??.................STILL HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU........THAT SURE WOULD BE "GOOD".........PEACE.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.......STOPPED BY YOUR FORUM HERE JUST BEFORE GAME 3 OF THE WORLD SERIES TONIGHT!........WAS HOPING TO SEE A POST FROM YOU GUYS, BUT STILL NONE!........THAT'S OK......I'M STILL WAITING TO SEE A POST FROM YOU SOON..........
We value the Body of Christ, and seek to be a catalyst for true unity among God’s people based on the truth of His Word, particularly the commandment to love one’s neighbor as oneself (Matt. 22:38).
I STILL CONSIDER MYSELF AS A "NEIGHBOR" OF YOUR'S HERE AT THE SPOT!.......I TOO AM A "MEMBER IN PARTICULAR" OF THE BODY OF CHRIST YOU SAY YOU VALUE!.....SOMEHOW, I GET THE FEELING YOU DON'T "VALUE" THIS NEIGHBORHOOD OF THE BODY OF CHRIST AS MUCH AS YOU DID EARLIER THIS YEAR WHEN YOU SPENT SO MUCH TIME WITH US...........WHY NOT?................STILL HOPING FOR A POST FROM YOU GUYS!........................PEACE.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HI THERE ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.......GAME 4 TONIGHT!.......THOUGHT YOU TWO MIGHT SLIP IN A POST BEFORE THE GAME.......BUT, AGAIN, NO POSTS FROM EITHER OF YOU!.......THERE'S STILL TIME.......
We value heart-felt obedience to God’s Word and encourage “Christ-like” behavior. We value the term “Christ-like,” as opposed to “Christian,” because the term “Christian” is colored by people’s experience of Christians more than by Jesus Christ himself.
DO YOU GUYS CONSIDER YOUR IGNORING OF YOUR FORUM HERE AT THE SPOT TO BE "CHRIST-LIKE BEHAVIOR"??...........WHAT DO YOU THINK CHRIST JESUS MIGHT CONSIDER YOUR "BEHAVIOR" HERE TO BE?........I GUESS YOU DO THINK OF YOURSELVES AS "CHRISTIANS" RATHER THAN MAKING AN ATTEMPT TO BE "CHRIST-LIKE" WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE!.............WE TOO "VALUE HEART-FELT OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WORD", ESPECIALLY BY SELF-PROCLAIMED "CHRIST-LIKE" LEADERS.......I ENCOURAGE YOU TO DEMONSTRATE THE VALUE YOU PLACE IN YOUR PREFERRED "TERM" BY POSTING A REPLY OR TWO HERE IN YOUR FORUM!............SURELY, THAT WOULD AFFORD YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXHIBIT SOME OF THAT "CHRIST-LIKE BEHAVIOR" YOU VALUE!...............THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY!................................PEACE.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I have to admire DWBH's tenacity...He continues to ask for a reasonable reply from these guys...I have to say, I'm not holding my breath waiting...
...I think there's a lot of folks who are willing to dialogue when it' in their interest. Allow me to join in with DWBH'c appeal for these guys to be responsible for their own words...their own code of conduct.
C'mon John...we want a response from you. Is that too much to ask?
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN.................YET AGAIN, NO POST FROM YOU GUYS!...................YOU ARE BOTH STILL WITH CES/STF ARE'NT YOU?
Without being exclusive, elitist, or isolated, we value our own vision of Christian faith and practice, and therefore seek to be independent of any controlling influences from other Christian groups or denominations.
WELL THEN, HOW ABOUT A POST OR TWO??..........MY QUESTIONS SEEM TO ME TO AFFORD YOU EACH AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE YOUR CURRENT "VISION OF CHRISTIAN FAITH AND PRACTICE "!........I'M NOT TRYING TO "CONTROL" YOU!........SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE BEING "ELITIST" AND "ISOLATED" BY NOT JUST PROVIDING A SIMPLE REPLY HERE AT YOUR CES FORUM...............WHAT IS YOUR "OWN VISION" OF CHRIST-LIKE FAITH AND PRACTICE?...........IS YOUR OLD GREASESPOT NEIGHBORHOOD NOT EXCLUSIVE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO RETURN AND POST ONE MORE TIME??..............STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO SHARE SOME OF YOUR VALUES WITH US!.................PEACE.
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Belle
Heck, John and Jeff, why don't you at least answer these on your website and post here to let us know that you've followed through on your own code of conduct posted on your own website?
These are fair and reasonable questions. Questions I hope that anyone still involved with or considering involvement with your group does ask and demand answers to.
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doojable
You know... the answer may be found right there in what is written.
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Out There
Alot of you should look at the posts you have written. I have never before seen such a group of venomous vipers before. Maybe you should look at yourselves before spewing forth.
Oh, I wonder how many are going to tell me some story of how they supposedly wronged you and absolutely destroyed your life and now you are living in poverty or in therapy six days a week (twice on saturdays) as a result of something they said. of course I don't know what I am talking about save your breath
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GrouchoMarxJr
Naw...I got no stories. Those guys never did anything to me personally. I just think they ought to come back and finish what they started here...all things considered, it seems only right to me.
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doojable
Hey Out There....
No they didn't do anything to me personally. I do have friends, close friends that got wrapped up in that racket , tho.
Ultimately, they owe me nothing, but they do owe their followers something. They did choose to bring their fight to these forums. Why not allow those who come here from their group the opportunity to also get the answers?
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Tom Strange
tap...tap...tap... (is this thing on?)
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