Hey there Tz - thanks for the shout out. I do take issue with what you insinuate in the above quote - that there was a long standing desire and conspiracy to oust MG. There may have been differences in opinion and personality conflict (with one person in particular), but there was no conspiracy. Period. It was MG's idea to have DG come in the first place!
Please be careful here as well, because a bit of the same was going on with the MG side, though it wasn't done here. Letters were sent out, folks on the CES/STF mailing list were contacted. My wife and I were personally witness to phone calls and conversations where such things things as "it's a war" and "it's time to take sides" were being said.
In the end, both "sides" are ultimately to blame, and I personally have suffered some of the consequences. Thankfully, my wife and I are working through it and moving on with our lives. I pray daily for all involved - in my opinion, it's the best hope for a positive outcome.
I know MG wanted DG at the home office. What I don't think MG knew (at the time) was that it was JB's desire to see MG gone. This is not speculation on my part. JB made his wishes very clear to me on a number of occasions regarding my continued participation and Mark being there. I think JB found himself very empowered once Dan came on board and set about eliminating whomever else he had problems with.
It's too bad it all came to taking sides. I've been there before which was why I felt a clean break was best for me (no mail list or continued correspondence). I've yet to pick up the phone to talk to any of them.
I'm truly sorry you and your wife had had to suffer anything because of this. I hope the marriage is going well, along with the new job. You're still as cute as ever!
Tzaia..........your saying ...”This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there.”...... is example of the problem...........
it’s the ‘can’t talk’ rule.
People who know how cults work write things like:
.........“This spirit of control also prohibits anyone from discussing doubts on doctrine or the set of rules their particular church inflicts upon them. David Johnson, in his book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, says, ‘The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is ... the "can't talk" rule...If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated. Those who do speak out are most often told, `We didn't have all these problems until you started shooting your mouth off. Everything was fine before you started stirring things up.'" Or “Quit causing division........you need to learn to forgive........love........”
and
...........”The dysfunctional system no doubt had a ‘don’t talk’ rule by practice—but probably spiritualized and cloaked in scripture as well. The ‘don’t talk’ rule serves to hide a myriad of the leaders’ sins.”
Your saying “The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.” is precisely why this was NOT strictly a CES problem that needed to stay HIDDEN there...............
I see the removal of MG as a 'personnel' issue - which needed to stay in-house. No sending out letters to the mailing list. No dropping turdlets on greasespot. You know, handle things professionally. Indiana is an "at will" employer state, so slinging mud over a personnel issue is not required, other than he could probably get unemployment for not breaking a rule of employment. I don't know how or why personal prophecy was dragged into the whole mix other than many important decisions were made or confirmed on the basis of personal prophecy that needed to be based on measurable metrics. I don't know if Mark was making bad decisions based on personal prophecy, but I DO know that JB could be a workplace bully and that behavior was what got him relieved of his duties initially.
I'm not real sure how getting this all out in the open will change anyone's mind about anything other than a few in the home office found they didn't have the support out here they thought they had. I would have preferred they foul their own nest with their crap.
HI THERE JEFF AND JOHN!.............JUST CHECKING IN HERE AT YOUR FORUM TO SEE IF YOU GUYS POSTED ANY REPLIES......................NOT YET, EH?.........
OK..............TOMORROW'S ANOTHER DAY..............STILL PATIENTLY WAITING TO HEAR FROM YOU GUYS..............THANKS!...............................PEACE.
Hi Billy D!.........................have you read post #49 yet??
Hi Tzaia!.............thanks for the insight your posts have provided..............sure glad you and Billy D. could re-connect here at the greasespot!..........that's one of the nice things that the spot provides for folks here!
"no dropping turdlets on greasespot"................."i would have preferred they foul their own nest with their crap."....................yeah........me too, tzaia..........but, they did'nt!...........they chose to do it here in the greasespot cafe..........that's why i think it only fair that they come back and clean up some of the "mess" they dropped here by posting replies to those "honest and pertinent" questions i asked at the start of this thread, don't you??
"i don't know how or why personal prophecy was dragged into the whole mix, other than many important decisions were made or confirmed on the basis of personal prophecy, that needed to be based on measurable metrics.".................i don't know why or how either, tzaia!......that's why that was my very first question!........maybe jeff and/or john will demonstrate the love or just the common courtesy of answering that question here on the forum the spot has provided for them???......................i honestly hope they will!.............................peace.
It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy letters, documents, etc. about the happenings of your ministry here at the greasespot cafe...........soooo...........WHAT'S UP YOU GUYS???..........have you read the thousands of posts on your ces forum here at the spot??.........have you noticed the hundreds of thousands of "views" your forum has generated??.......are you totally disinterested in sharing with us greasespotters what's currently happening in and with your ministry regarding all those thousdands of posts, including your own??...........it's like trying to get answers from rosie, or geer, et al!!........your not just gonna offer us a second-rate remake are you??...afterall, the greasespot was nice enough to provide a forum for you guys!!.....can't you muster up the common courtesy of tossing some current answers and facts our way??..the spot was good enough to let you "lay out" your concerns and opinions here...........don't you think we deserve to hear/read your current understanding and opinions on the issues YOU posted here??
How about answering just the following questions for us, ok??
1)what is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"?
2)what is your ministry's current position regarding karen ann graeser's understanding and application of the "gift ministry" of a prophet?. what have you learned or "unlearned" from mark and karen ann?
3)what do you believe your ministry's responsibility is to your followers regarding an explanation of "what went wrong"? what have you done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice?
4)how will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? in your opinion, have you or do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors or evangelists?
5)do you still publicly or privately promote the momentous "training" to your followers? if yes, why? if no, why not?
6)who is currently on your board of directors? your prophetic council?
7)do you foresee a cooperative relationship between ces/stf and the graeser's and the resner's in the near future? if yes, on what grounds? if no, why not?
i sure hope you don't refer me to your website(s)!......please have the love to post your responses here on your greasespot forum, won't you? i've checked your sites and have'nt found any info that even comes close to handling any of the questions above.........come on you guys.......don't "pull a twi" on us, ok??........
eagerly awaiting your replies!.................peace........
Those seem like very reasonable questions and I could not find any of the answers on their websites either.
Pity they were so eager to provide information earlier and now they won't answer a few questions. I guess it's true, "You can take the TWIt out of TWI, but you can't take......
Yo! Billy D!..................have you "looked into it"???.........got your pronouns straight??................what have you found out???.................we ever gonna hear from you again on this???..............have you located jeff and/or john??.........they willing to "beam down"??....................................peace.
Nope, haven't "looked into it" and my pronouns are just fine, thank you! Just had my first wedding anniversary, so looking into these sortid details wasn't my highest priority. And just so that you know: no, you won't hear from me on this. It's not my job to look into something and report it back here. I'll contact the people inolved directly, and everyone else here should too. If you don't get the answers you want, wash your hands of them and the entire situation.
I speak to and see Jeff and John on a regular basis, so there's no need to "locate" them. And no, I doubt that either one of them will "beam down" soon.
This here starship captain is going to sign off....for good. Time to move on. Many blessings to ALL of you....even those I don't agree with.
According to the AoI and bylaws of the corp, MG can't be relieved of his board position. He has to resign.
This is likely Mark Graeser's side and story. However, did you actually read the bylaws to verify whether this is true or not true? Why would CES take a vote at all if this is true? And my understanding is that CES removed him as president of the board and not entirely from the board. There really has to be accountability for any church or corporation and their officers.
Does anyone have a copy of the actual CES corporate bylaws that they can post here?
A not-so-innocent bystander, weighing in (or, exWaying...)
I never did do the CES thing. In its early years, I couldn't get behind what seemed to be their push. There were good people there. But time tells and time has told. From my POV (admittedly distant) it looks like a dead fish on a bank, right next to a big rotting whale. I read John's letter with interest and pathos, and much of the core material CC gathered in the pinned post. I almost called John, but he doesn't know me. I wanted to offer some consolation/encouragement.
I realize I'm stating the obvious when I say that these are real people here, trying to do a good thing. They are our brothers and our sisters. I would hope that regardless of the number of times various people "spoke into the lives" of people for profit, this personal prophecy thing needs to be looked into. I believe real prophecy IS personal. Whether genuine prophecy happened at any time in CES, I have no idea. I wasn't there, falling on my face and declaring that God is in XXX of a truth.
Error does need to be confronted, and ungodliness. Is now the time to do it to CES? And in this way? Seems like God is doing a pretty good job of it byHisownself.
Right now, it appears to me, they're still in the throes of being very broken. If I were them, no way would I respond here at GS, and certainly not to this thread. I encourage them NOT to. But I do pray that they will "post" their hearts to God, who forgives all our sins, and heals all our diseases, and that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil and live the fruitful and joyous lives that is the Father's will for them.
"Moving the Word" and "educational" Christianity were lopsided Way things. The "improvements" of the materials apparently didn't help, either. Stuff needs to get learned, and God has a way of teaching us, come soon or come later. I think leave 'em alone and let them heal. Some of you sound like a pack of people around Jesus, saying, "Moses said she should be stoned, but what do YOU say?"
So when they continued asking him,
he lifted up himself, and said unto them,
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
I can appreciate the sentiments posted by anotherDan...the failings of CES should not be the subject of rejoicing...it's not kind to put the boots to someone when they are on the ground.
However, my concern is for the hundreds or maybe thousands of sincere people who have been led astray by wrong teachings fueled by the egos of a handful of mog wannabes...what about them?
...and if I recall, this forum was USED by CES leadership to make public their point of view. They invited this dialogue. Questions are being asked and they are refusing to answer...fine...that's their choice...but it's MY choice to draw conclusions based upon my own perceptions and I believe it's appropriate to hold them accountable for the "drama" that they inflicted upon their followers as well as all of us who hang out here at the cafe...who are ALSO our brothers and sisters.
It's one thing to stick your nose in someone else's business and quite another thing to respond to someone who has stuck their nose in YOUR business.
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF AND JOHN!.............I WAS JUST HOPING I'D SEE A POST FROM YOU GUYS TONIGHT!...............I'LL KEEP CHECKING.................I'M SURE, SOONER OR LATER, ONE OR BOTH OF YOU WILL DO ME THE KINDNESS OF A REPLY OF SOME KIND................I HAVE NOT LOST FAITH IN YOU YET!.............PEACE.
Billy D!.........................Congratulations on your first wedding anniversary!!............may you have dozens more in good health and prosperity!!!
"It's not my job to look into something and report it back here"...........................for the record, i certainly never thought or said it was your job to look into anything and report it back here!.................you said, on your first post on this thread, that you were "going to look into" whether john or jeff had asked me to read what they (jeff and john) had posted here at the spot and "get back to them (jeff and john)".......it was'nt anything i asked or expected you to do........you came up with that on your own, did'nt you?...............well........i guess i'll never get an answer to that, since you're not gonna visit here any more..........i sure hope, that, since you talk with jeff and john every day,.....they did'nt encourage you to stay away from their forum here..............i'm still counting on them to have the love and courtesy of posting here on their own..............hope they let you know when they do........maybe you'll stop back by then too??..................hope so!!.....................................nice meeting you here at the spot, Billy!........................................peace.
nice sentiments ADan... that's kind of along the lines of what I'd like to see... except, I'd like them to come out and say "we will sin no more"... that they've admitted their wrongs and will "go and sin no more"... will get out of the BUSINESS of making money off of people's hopes and dreams...
HI THERE JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!...........HOW ARE YOU GUYS THIS LOVELY FALL EVENING???..............STILL HOPING TO COME TO THIS FORUM AND SEE AN ANSWER OR TWO FROM YOU.............................PATIENTLY AND HOPEFULLY AWAITING YOUR REPLIES!...........................................PEACE.
GOOD EVENING ONCE AGAIN JEFF AND JOHN!!.........SORRY FOR BEING A LITTLE LATE TODAY...........FELL ASLEEP AFTER COMING HOME FROM WORK LATE, TODAY..........ANYWAY,.....I WAS HOPING TO SEE A POST FROM EITHER OF YOU GUYS,......BUT........OBVIOUSLY.......THERE STILL IS'NT ONE!!......ALRIGHT, THEN,,,,,,,,,I'LL LOOK FOR ONE, OR, TWO, TOMORROW..................HAVE A GOOD NIGHT!!!....................................PEACE.
Tom, yeah, that too, I suppose. Nice thing about free speech. One can speak or not speak. To me, some of what is going on looks like badgering, condemnation, and baiting. I don't know. Maybe DWBH is really on a mission from God to hold the irresponsible to account. Forces of light vs. forces of darkness. I'm just saying, it seems like a different kind of Christianity than what I've come into. Jesus did confront religious idiots. One important element was that he was not one himself. I was, therefore I can have empathy for fellowidiots. I confront my friends sometimes because that's what friends do. The trust level is there because the love is there.
I've gotten more than one private mail regarding this thread. I realize I'm an outsider looking in. I don't have a stake in the organization. My only interest is in healing, truth, honesty. I care about DWBH, I care about JL, and I care about the people that are affected by ministries such as CES. I know some of the story, but not all, by any means. God rules via the Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit. At times, we as sons can participate and cooperate with what God is doing in the present, in our world, making things right. "Thy will be done upon earth, as it is in heaven."
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:
that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
My only interest is in healing, truth, honesty. I care about DWBH, I care about JL, and I care about the people that are affected by ministries such as CES.
AD, some good points there... please allow me to focus on just this little part... I care about healing, truth, honesty and those affected by ministries such as CES as well...
...as I believe many do here (including DWBH)... and it's for that reason that I'm waiting for them to come out of the shadows and expose all of this to the light.
It's my firm belief that none of this, none of this would have come out if not for GS... and they'd still be scurrying around trying to keep it quiet. Their modus operandi seems to be to just hide until it all blows over... hoping people will forget and eventually forgive. (which to me is again preying on the goodness of people). My thoughts are that IF they would just come out (here at GS or on their own site or on a neutral site) and lay everything on the table and then say "here it all is, we're dumping this and we're sorry but we made a mistake and we're keeping this and moving forward and will try our best to make sure this never happens again"... then there could be cleansing, the healing could start and people could make informed decisions about their future association with CES/STF...
But they seem afraid... they appear (at least to me) to be like a child that has been caught doing something they shouldn't and are doing the best they can to avoid confronting, and thereby dealing with, the wrong that they did to folks that they were supposed to be shepherding and nurturing.
I don't believe that Jesus, in every case, said "go and sin no more"... I think this situation is more along the lines of Him calling them out in the middle of the temple...
They need to "come clean"... publicly. They had no problems in the past putting all of this out there. They need to be just as bold, and a lot more forthcoming, in admitting the errors of their ways and then moving forward.
IF they really are who they purport to be and really have the interests of God's people as their first concern... they'll do that.
IF not... it appears that they just want to hide in the closet until it all blows over so they can get back to doing what they were doing before...
So... back to the healing, truth, honesty... I haven't seen any of it coming from them and I haven't seen them take any steps to bring any of those three about...
All good points, Tom. And you clearly did NOT say that GS was a "neutral site."
Your POV is well taken.
How ever they decide to handle it is fine with me. I agree that being forthright is the fast track to healing/reconciliation/moving on. I won't speculate on what their actions/inactions "say" because again, I'm too far outside the loop to have a proper picture. Maybe your take on it is the best way to go. I'm very careful about attaching the motives of someone else's heart to what their actions "say" to me, even if I'm well informed. That one has come back to bite me, where I've been totally wrong. (Like with my WIFE or KIDS!)
Yes, I can "see" peoples' hearts at times, at least I think I can, but I often withhold judgment, deferring to the Lord. In my "Christian Maturity Program," I see myself as more mature when I have a wisdom/graciousness thing going than when I have a knowledge/judgmental thing going. Nothing wrong with knowledge, per se, and we are to judge in prescribed ways. I know that.
Can I drop this thread now? All those in favor, don't say anything.
GOOD EVENING ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.............LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER DAY HAS COME AND IS ALMOST GONE, AND, STILL NOT A WORD, OR GROUP OF WORDS FROM EITHER OF YOU......................ONCE MORE,..............I AWAIT YOUR REPLY................................. PATIENTLY..........HONESTLY.........HOPEFULLY.............STILL WAITING...........I'LL GIVE YOU A SHOUT TOMORROW..........UNLESS YOU CAN "SQUEEZE" SOMETHING IN TODAY.................................................................PEACE!
...the weird thing is that these guys claimed to be our friends!...our "brothers"...have they soiled themselves so badly that they haven't the nads to even reply?
HI THERE JEFF BLACBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!..............I AM ONCE AGAIN CHECKING IN HERE AT THE FORUM PAWTUCKET SET UP FOR YOU GUYS TO POST YOUR LETTERS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS, ALMOST A YEAR AGO.........THIS WAS DONE BECAUSE, BACK THEN, YOU BELIEVED THIS WAS NECESSARY FOR WHATEVER REASONS YOU HAD IN YOUR HEARTS...........OBVIOUSLY,......AS YOU CAN SEE BY THE VARIOUS POSTS ON THIS THREAD TO DATE, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO STILL FEEL SOME RESPONSE FROM YOU GUYS IS STILL NECESSARY...........THOUGH DIFFICULT, I HAVE TRIED VERY HARD TO REMAIN FOCUSED ON GETTING MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ANSWERED BY YOU.........I AM NOT "IGNORING" THE OTHER GREASESPOTTERS WHO HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD........I AM TRYING TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON YOU GUYS AND CES........THAT'S WHY I KEEP DIRECTING MY POSTS TO YOU..........AND TO THE MEMBERS OF CES OR FORMER STAFF MEMBERS OF CES WHO HAVE POSTED HERE............I REMAIN PATIENT AND HOPEFUL THAT I WILL HEAR FROM YOU JEFF, AND, JOHN.........BECAUSE YOU BOTH STILL SEEM TO CLAIM THAT YOU AND CES ARE STILL "WORKING FOR GOD" IN PROMOTING YOUR "MINISTRY"...........IF THIS IS INDEED YOUR "POSITION", THEN I THINK A RESPONSE OF SOME KIND WOULD INDEED BE A GODLY THING FOR YOU TO PROVIDE................I'LL CHECK AGAIN TOMORROW............................................PEACE!
HELLO ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.........HOW ARE YOU GUYS TONIGHT????
It is our experience that far too often Christian leaders have failed to practice what they have preached, leading to much disillusionment, pain, and broken relationships. In fact, too much of their behavior was the opposite of those things set forth in the following Code of Conduct. It is such ungodly behavior among leaders in the Church that has prompted us to clarify the issues that we deem crucial to establishing and maintaining a healthy Christian community. Though a Code of Conduct may seem unnecessary to those with a different experience, these biblical guidelines have helped us be “on the same page” morally and ethically.
The attitudes and behaviors listed are the goals that we as the leaders of Spirit & Truth Fellowship have set for ourselves, in conjunction with the standards of the leadership epistles of Timothy and Titus. We want everyone involved with our ministry to know just how they can expect those who represent Spirit & Truth Fellowship to live, and to speak up if they fail to do so. The goal of this Code of Conduct is not perfection, but accountability and commitment to a healthy Christian community.
DO THESE WORDS STILL APPLY TO YOU GUYS?....... DO THEY STILL APPLY TO YOUR MINISTRY?.............IS THIS "CURRENT"?.........CAN WE STILL EXPECT THIS KIND OF CONDUCT FROM YOU??.................AM I "'ON THE SAME PAGE' MORALLY AND ETHICALLY" WITH YOU GUYS???...............ANOTHER REASON I'M STILL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE FROM YOU REGARDING MY QUESTIONS!............THANKS, AND....................................................PEACE!
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
Tzaia
I know MG wanted DG at the home office. What I don't think MG knew (at the time) was that it was JB's desire to see MG gone. This is not speculation on my part. JB made his wishes very clear to me on a number of occasions regarding my continued participation and Mark being there. I think JB found himself very empowered once Dan came on board and set about eliminating whomever else he had problems with.
It's too bad it all came to taking sides. I've been there before which was why I felt a clean break was best for me (no mail list or continued correspondence). I've yet to pick up the phone to talk to any of them.
I'm truly sorry you and your wife had had to suffer anything because of this. I hope the marriage is going well, along with the new job. You're still as cute as ever!
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Tzaia
I see the removal of MG as a 'personnel' issue - which needed to stay in-house. No sending out letters to the mailing list. No dropping turdlets on greasespot. You know, handle things professionally. Indiana is an "at will" employer state, so slinging mud over a personnel issue is not required, other than he could probably get unemployment for not breaking a rule of employment. I don't know how or why personal prophecy was dragged into the whole mix other than many important decisions were made or confirmed on the basis of personal prophecy that needed to be based on measurable metrics. I don't know if Mark was making bad decisions based on personal prophecy, but I DO know that JB could be a workplace bully and that behavior was what got him relieved of his duties initially.
I'm not real sure how getting this all out in the open will change anyone's mind about anything other than a few in the home office found they didn't have the support out here they thought they had. I would have preferred they foul their own nest with their crap.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HI THERE JEFF AND JOHN!.............JUST CHECKING IN HERE AT YOUR FORUM TO SEE IF YOU GUYS POSTED ANY REPLIES......................NOT YET, EH?.........
OK..............TOMORROW'S ANOTHER DAY..............STILL PATIENTLY WAITING TO HEAR FROM YOU GUYS..............THANKS!...............................PEACE.
Hi Billy D!.........................have you read post #49 yet??
Hi Tzaia!.............thanks for the insight your posts have provided..............sure glad you and Billy D. could re-connect here at the greasespot!..........that's one of the nice things that the spot provides for folks here!
"no dropping turdlets on greasespot"................."i would have preferred they foul their own nest with their crap."....................yeah........me too, tzaia..........but, they did'nt!...........they chose to do it here in the greasespot cafe..........that's why i think it only fair that they come back and clean up some of the "mess" they dropped here by posting replies to those "honest and pertinent" questions i asked at the start of this thread, don't you??
"i don't know how or why personal prophecy was dragged into the whole mix, other than many important decisions were made or confirmed on the basis of personal prophecy, that needed to be based on measurable metrics.".................i don't know why or how either, tzaia!......that's why that was my very first question!........maybe jeff and/or john will demonstrate the love or just the common courtesy of answering that question here on the forum the spot has provided for them???......................i honestly hope they will!.............................peace.
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Tom Strange
he does kind of look like James T. Kirk doesn't he?
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Belle
Those seem like very reasonable questions and I could not find any of the answers on their websites either.
Pity they were so eager to provide information earlier and now they won't answer a few questions. I guess it's true, "You can take the TWIt out of TWI, but you can't take......
They learned well.
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Billy D
Nope, haven't "looked into it" and my pronouns are just fine, thank you! Just had my first wedding anniversary, so looking into these sortid details wasn't my highest priority. And just so that you know: no, you won't hear from me on this. It's not my job to look into something and report it back here. I'll contact the people inolved directly, and everyone else here should too. If you don't get the answers you want, wash your hands of them and the entire situation.
I speak to and see Jeff and John on a regular basis, so there's no need to "locate" them. And no, I doubt that either one of them will "beam down" soon.
This here starship captain is going to sign off....for good. Time to move on. Many blessings to ALL of you....even those I don't agree with.
Peace.
~B
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Mark Sanguinetti
Tzaia says,
This is likely Mark Graeser's side and story. However, did you actually read the bylaws to verify whether this is true or not true? Why would CES take a vote at all if this is true? And my understanding is that CES removed him as president of the board and not entirely from the board. There really has to be accountability for any church or corporation and their officers.
Does anyone have a copy of the actual CES corporate bylaws that they can post here?
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anotherDan
A not-so-innocent bystander, weighing in (or, exWaying...)
I never did do the CES thing. In its early years, I couldn't get behind what seemed to be their push. There were good people there. But time tells and time has told. From my POV (admittedly distant) it looks like a dead fish on a bank, right next to a big rotting whale. I read John's letter with interest and pathos, and much of the core material CC gathered in the pinned post. I almost called John, but he doesn't know me. I wanted to offer some consolation/encouragement.
I realize I'm stating the obvious when I say that these are real people here, trying to do a good thing. They are our brothers and our sisters. I would hope that regardless of the number of times various people "spoke into the lives" of people for profit, this personal prophecy thing needs to be looked into. I believe real prophecy IS personal. Whether genuine prophecy happened at any time in CES, I have no idea. I wasn't there, falling on my face and declaring that God is in XXX of a truth.
Error does need to be confronted, and ungodliness. Is now the time to do it to CES? And in this way? Seems like God is doing a pretty good job of it byHisownself.
Right now, it appears to me, they're still in the throes of being very broken. If I were them, no way would I respond here at GS, and certainly not to this thread. I encourage them NOT to. But I do pray that they will "post" their hearts to God, who forgives all our sins, and heals all our diseases, and that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil and live the fruitful and joyous lives that is the Father's will for them.
"Moving the Word" and "educational" Christianity were lopsided Way things. The "improvements" of the materials apparently didn't help, either. Stuff needs to get learned, and God has a way of teaching us, come soon or come later. I think leave 'em alone and let them heal. Some of you sound like a pack of people around Jesus, saying, "Moses said she should be stoned, but what do YOU say?"
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GrouchoMarxJr
I can appreciate the sentiments posted by anotherDan...the failings of CES should not be the subject of rejoicing...it's not kind to put the boots to someone when they are on the ground.
However, my concern is for the hundreds or maybe thousands of sincere people who have been led astray by wrong teachings fueled by the egos of a handful of mog wannabes...what about them?
...and if I recall, this forum was USED by CES leadership to make public their point of view. They invited this dialogue. Questions are being asked and they are refusing to answer...fine...that's their choice...but it's MY choice to draw conclusions based upon my own perceptions and I believe it's appropriate to hold them accountable for the "drama" that they inflicted upon their followers as well as all of us who hang out here at the cafe...who are ALSO our brothers and sisters.
It's one thing to stick your nose in someone else's business and quite another thing to respond to someone who has stuck their nose in YOUR business.
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anotherDan
fair enough, Groucho
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF AND JOHN!.............I WAS JUST HOPING I'D SEE A POST FROM YOU GUYS TONIGHT!...............I'LL KEEP CHECKING.................I'M SURE, SOONER OR LATER, ONE OR BOTH OF YOU WILL DO ME THE KINDNESS OF A REPLY OF SOME KIND................I HAVE NOT LOST FAITH IN YOU YET!.............PEACE.
Billy D!.........................Congratulations on your first wedding anniversary!!............may you have dozens more in good health and prosperity!!!
"It's not my job to look into something and report it back here"...........................for the record, i certainly never thought or said it was your job to look into anything and report it back here!.................you said, on your first post on this thread, that you were "going to look into" whether john or jeff had asked me to read what they (jeff and john) had posted here at the spot and "get back to them (jeff and john)".......it was'nt anything i asked or expected you to do........you came up with that on your own, did'nt you?...............well........i guess i'll never get an answer to that, since you're not gonna visit here any more..........i sure hope, that, since you talk with jeff and john every day,.....they did'nt encourage you to stay away from their forum here..............i'm still counting on them to have the love and courtesy of posting here on their own..............hope they let you know when they do........maybe you'll stop back by then too??..................hope so!!.....................................nice meeting you here at the spot, Billy!........................................peace.
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anotherDan
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Tom Strange
nice sentiments ADan... that's kind of along the lines of what I'd like to see... except, I'd like them to come out and say "we will sin no more"... that they've admitted their wrongs and will "go and sin no more"... will get out of the BUSINESS of making money off of people's hopes and dreams...
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DontWorryBeHappy
HI THERE JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!...........HOW ARE YOU GUYS THIS LOVELY FALL EVENING???..............STILL HOPING TO COME TO THIS FORUM AND SEE AN ANSWER OR TWO FROM YOU.............................PATIENTLY AND HOPEFULLY AWAITING YOUR REPLIES!...........................................PEACE.
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DontWorryBeHappy
GOOD EVENING ONCE AGAIN JEFF AND JOHN!!.........SORRY FOR BEING A LITTLE LATE TODAY...........FELL ASLEEP AFTER COMING HOME FROM WORK LATE, TODAY..........ANYWAY,.....I WAS HOPING TO SEE A POST FROM EITHER OF YOU GUYS,......BUT........OBVIOUSLY.......THERE STILL IS'NT ONE!!......ALRIGHT, THEN,,,,,,,,,I'LL LOOK FOR ONE, OR, TWO, TOMORROW..................HAVE A GOOD NIGHT!!!....................................PEACE.
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GarthP2000
((I'm gonna buy DontWorryBeHappy a bullhorn on his birthday for his CES shoutouts. ;) ))
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anotherDan
Tom, yeah, that too, I suppose. Nice thing about free speech. One can speak or not speak. To me, some of what is going on looks like badgering, condemnation, and baiting. I don't know. Maybe DWBH is really on a mission from God to hold the irresponsible to account. Forces of light vs. forces of darkness. I'm just saying, it seems like a different kind of Christianity than what I've come into. Jesus did confront religious idiots. One important element was that he was not one himself. I was, therefore I can have empathy for fellowidiots. I confront my friends sometimes because that's what friends do. The trust level is there because the love is there.
I've gotten more than one private mail regarding this thread. I realize I'm an outsider looking in. I don't have a stake in the organization. My only interest is in healing, truth, honesty. I care about DWBH, I care about JL, and I care about the people that are affected by ministries such as CES. I know some of the story, but not all, by any means. God rules via the Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit. At times, we as sons can participate and cooperate with what God is doing in the present, in our world, making things right. "Thy will be done upon earth, as it is in heaven."
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Tom Strange
AD, some good points there... please allow me to focus on just this little part... I care about healing, truth, honesty and those affected by ministries such as CES as well...
...as I believe many do here (including DWBH)... and it's for that reason that I'm waiting for them to come out of the shadows and expose all of this to the light.
It's my firm belief that none of this, none of this would have come out if not for GS... and they'd still be scurrying around trying to keep it quiet. Their modus operandi seems to be to just hide until it all blows over... hoping people will forget and eventually forgive. (which to me is again preying on the goodness of people). My thoughts are that IF they would just come out (here at GS or on their own site or on a neutral site) and lay everything on the table and then say "here it all is, we're dumping this and we're sorry but we made a mistake and we're keeping this and moving forward and will try our best to make sure this never happens again"... then there could be cleansing, the healing could start and people could make informed decisions about their future association with CES/STF...
But they seem afraid... they appear (at least to me) to be like a child that has been caught doing something they shouldn't and are doing the best they can to avoid confronting, and thereby dealing with, the wrong that they did to folks that they were supposed to be shepherding and nurturing.
I don't believe that Jesus, in every case, said "go and sin no more"... I think this situation is more along the lines of Him calling them out in the middle of the temple...
They need to "come clean"... publicly. They had no problems in the past putting all of this out there. They need to be just as bold, and a lot more forthcoming, in admitting the errors of their ways and then moving forward.
IF they really are who they purport to be and really have the interests of God's people as their first concern... they'll do that.
IF not... it appears that they just want to hide in the closet until it all blows over so they can get back to doing what they were doing before...
So... back to the healing, truth, honesty... I haven't seen any of it coming from them and I haven't seen them take any steps to bring any of those three about...
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anotherDan
All good points, Tom. And you clearly did NOT say that GS was a "neutral site."
Your POV is well taken.
How ever they decide to handle it is fine with me. I agree that being forthright is the fast track to healing/reconciliation/moving on. I won't speculate on what their actions/inactions "say" because again, I'm too far outside the loop to have a proper picture. Maybe your take on it is the best way to go. I'm very careful about attaching the motives of someone else's heart to what their actions "say" to me, even if I'm well informed. That one has come back to bite me, where I've been totally wrong. (Like with my WIFE or KIDS!)
Yes, I can "see" peoples' hearts at times, at least I think I can, but I often withhold judgment, deferring to the Lord. In my "Christian Maturity Program," I see myself as more mature when I have a wisdom/graciousness thing going than when I have a knowledge/judgmental thing going. Nothing wrong with knowledge, per se, and we are to judge in prescribed ways. I know that.
Can I drop this thread now? All those in favor, don't say anything.
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DontWorryBeHappy
GOOD EVENING ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.............LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER DAY HAS COME AND IS ALMOST GONE, AND, STILL NOT A WORD, OR GROUP OF WORDS FROM EITHER OF YOU......................ONCE MORE,..............I AWAIT YOUR REPLY................................. PATIENTLY..........HONESTLY.........HOPEFULLY.............STILL WAITING...........I'LL GIVE YOU A SHOUT TOMORROW..........UNLESS YOU CAN "SQUEEZE" SOMETHING IN TODAY.................................................................PEACE!
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GrouchoMarxJr
DWBH...I gotta say, your persistant.
...the weird thing is that these guys claimed to be our friends!...our "brothers"...have they soiled themselves so badly that they haven't the nads to even reply?
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DontWorryBeHappy
HI THERE JEFF BLACBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!..............I AM ONCE AGAIN CHECKING IN HERE AT THE FORUM PAWTUCKET SET UP FOR YOU GUYS TO POST YOUR LETTERS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS, ALMOST A YEAR AGO.........THIS WAS DONE BECAUSE, BACK THEN, YOU BELIEVED THIS WAS NECESSARY FOR WHATEVER REASONS YOU HAD IN YOUR HEARTS...........OBVIOUSLY,......AS YOU CAN SEE BY THE VARIOUS POSTS ON THIS THREAD TO DATE, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO STILL FEEL SOME RESPONSE FROM YOU GUYS IS STILL NECESSARY...........THOUGH DIFFICULT, I HAVE TRIED VERY HARD TO REMAIN FOCUSED ON GETTING MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ANSWERED BY YOU.........I AM NOT "IGNORING" THE OTHER GREASESPOTTERS WHO HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD........I AM TRYING TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON YOU GUYS AND CES........THAT'S WHY I KEEP DIRECTING MY POSTS TO YOU..........AND TO THE MEMBERS OF CES OR FORMER STAFF MEMBERS OF CES WHO HAVE POSTED HERE............I REMAIN PATIENT AND HOPEFUL THAT I WILL HEAR FROM YOU JEFF, AND, JOHN.........BECAUSE YOU BOTH STILL SEEM TO CLAIM THAT YOU AND CES ARE STILL "WORKING FOR GOD" IN PROMOTING YOUR "MINISTRY"...........IF THIS IS INDEED YOUR "POSITION", THEN I THINK A RESPONSE OF SOME KIND WOULD INDEED BE A GODLY THING FOR YOU TO PROVIDE................I'LL CHECK AGAIN TOMORROW............................................PEACE!
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.........HOW ARE YOU GUYS TONIGHT????
It is our experience that far too often Christian leaders have failed to practice what they have preached, leading to much disillusionment, pain, and broken relationships. In fact, too much of their behavior was the opposite of those things set forth in the following Code of Conduct. It is such ungodly behavior among leaders in the Church that has prompted us to clarify the issues that we deem crucial to establishing and maintaining a healthy Christian community. Though a Code of Conduct may seem unnecessary to those with a different experience, these biblical guidelines have helped us be “on the same page” morally and ethically.
The attitudes and behaviors listed are the goals that we as the leaders of Spirit & Truth Fellowship have set for ourselves, in conjunction with the standards of the leadership epistles of Timothy and Titus. We want everyone involved with our ministry to know just how they can expect those who represent Spirit & Truth Fellowship to live, and to speak up if they fail to do so. The goal of this Code of Conduct is not perfection, but accountability and commitment to a healthy Christian community.
DO THESE WORDS STILL APPLY TO YOU GUYS?....... DO THEY STILL APPLY TO YOUR MINISTRY?.............IS THIS "CURRENT"?.........CAN WE STILL EXPECT THIS KIND OF CONDUCT FROM YOU??.................AM I "'ON THE SAME PAGE' MORALLY AND ETHICALLY" WITH YOU GUYS???...............ANOTHER REASON I'M STILL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE FROM YOU REGARDING MY QUESTIONS!............THANKS, AND....................................................PEACE!
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Suda
Excellent post, Don't Worry Be Happy!
Suda
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