Mark and KG have spent their life involved in "moving the word" in twi and ces and stf.. theyare loyal to the cause.
I do not pretend to know motives now or then.
But
they left florida and sold their business Mark was washing windows on John Lynn call for them to join , they moved their family they once again did it all for the cause.
then Mark began school and I would think with the hopes this is his career ..
blam
disagreements begins and he is suppose to say to his middle age wife and college age kids( 4 I think )oops my bad AGAIN?
geez life is difficult but at what point do we say enough is enough and take it back?
it is surly a wake of destruction of lifes and maybe they just are angry after all these years and years of being told what to do with their life and have it fall apart once again .
just guessing lol but
what people should do has been dictated to them for decades and now they are just done?
What I wonder is, what did "they" do to him? He believed the same bible, at least once..
just a "passionate for the truth" as j.l., j.s. and gang ever was..
did they push him over the edge?
From what I was told, JB became verbally abusive towards at least one of MG kid's who was working in the office at the time. I don't know if the kid was on the payroll or there as a volunteer, but it was JB's habit to harass those he did not like (usually women) until they left. JB did not like KAG walking in and having any sort of say in anything in the office, so it was only a matter of time with her. All the other wives stayed away for the most part.
Now I'm just speculating here, but I can imagine that it came down kind of like this: This round of verbal abuse became personal and Mark went way out of his comfort zone to address the issue. It's been happening for years to every other female who's ever worked there, including EL, but this time it's family. JB is given a warning and he's fine for a week and then he does it again and MG lets him go. JB gets DG on 'his' side and MG tells him to leave as well (these events happened). That makes MG the opposition. The typical CES response (at least at first) is to hone in on a weakness in the 'opposition'. In this case, it's KAG because, IMO, she's been losing ground in her ability to function (I would NOT be surprised if she's in the early stages of Alzheimer's) and MG has been dealing with that. This would be along the lines of "MG's just not thinking straight on this one due to 'home problems'", which others have already alluded to. Rather than JB owning up to his part in the situation, he gets DG involved, which isn't all that hard because of his view towards women. They both gang up on MG, bringing JAL into it because JAL can be easily convinced to do just about anything by these guys, including divorcing his wife (he was very conflicted about it, but that didn't stop him). The Thiesen's are up in Michigan and don't have a clue concerning the dysfunction of the office as everyone is on their best behavior when they do show up. MG is far less persuasive than DG, so the Thiesan's side with JB and DG and that finishes MG because JWS just wants to get along with the majority.
JB gets CC involved through EL and gets the ammunition out here to discredit MG via KAG. I still don't know why that was necessary as every last one of them was involved in this PP thing about EL (the evidence was on the server and I had unlimited access to the server), and numerous others, including me. But it's strange how they can play like they had no major part in it when they did. I'm guessing THAT's what ....ed MG off. I am aware that a letter from MG went to people on the mailing list, but he didn't put it out on a website for all to see and he doesn't appreciate things being out there for just anyone to pick up on - and I don't blame him. All you have to do is do a google search on his name and BAM! it's right up there in the top 10. It doesn't make him particularly marketable when it comes to getting a job, so, they have defamed him. What's more is that they got someone else to do their dirty work and her name is embedded in the documents. Not a smart move on her part.
The truth of the matter is if you're not there, you have no idea who to trust or believe. I only believe what I personally experienced. While this PP thing is bulls---, it is also serving to deflect the real issues.
It was when KG taught that i realized something was wrong very wrong.
she did this teaching and it must have been stupid because i do not remember one word of it but this part i remember and stuff that sticks in my brain sticks for a reason.
so she is blah blah blah and somone asks a question and she says no questions although she had been researching this teaching for a long long time... ? so off she goes boring then after another question.. and she says.
"you will have to ask my husband about that part!"
karen if your reading this
why did you say that?
both me and my friend looked at each other and realized this was fried just fried.
a teaching she taught a teaching she had researched but one simple question and she says ask Mark.
i was done then.
maybe you cant understand in the manner Im explaining it but it is so clear
While I appreciate the desire to move the Word as many of us were want to do while in twi, and I totally understand the desire to continue to or reintroduce sweet fellowship with believers I fail to understanding why anyone would continually try to resusitate a broken system. TWI was a corporation. It ultimately was not geared towards Godly fellowship or spiritual growth. It was geared towards stock market growth. CES and STF are corporations. They may have once but no longer seem to promote Godly fellowship or spiritual growth.
Either they're not listening to people until it gains critical mass, not pasturing the flock, or not the kind of people that should have the oversight of others. What kind of irresponsibility is this where they allow so many to fall prey to these stray winds.
Exactly so...when will the BOD's of STF or CES realize that they are being blown about by erroneous winds of doctrine? Once upon a time their intentions may have been good and righteous. What are they now? What are these winds of doctrine? What is the fruit of this ministry?
Kudos to the 4 original BODs that walked away from CES, Momentus and Swatratra and crew! It is a shame that some still fell to the stale doctrines and beliefs.
It doesn't make him particularly marketable when it comes to getting a job, so, they have defamed him. What's more is that they got someone else to do their dirty work and her name is embedded in the documents. Not a smart move on her part.
Is this the bottom line of the lawsuit, the future marketability of MG? I dunno?
Are we talking about EL as the woman who did the dirty work and about her going public with that letter not being a smart move?  Do you think it was blown out of proportion or the catalyst that made all those fragile ces relationships fail?
Hi everybody!.........tzaia,.....thanks for your posts.......it's nice to have some input from a former "insider", or at least from someone who had a firsthand experience with what appears to be, the generalized dysfunction that is the daily routine at the STF "home office"!.......imho, it is the word dysfunction which best describes the interpersonal realtionships at the 'home office" among the stf principals........however, this is not somehting new which developed during the last several years......it's a longstanding badge worn by these folks for some 30 years now, imo!
as i stated previously on this thread, the addition of the graeser's to the original ces bod was a major bone of contention between jalvis and the 4 other "founding members" of the ces board. mrs. graeser, imo, had exhibitted psychosocial eccentricities long before her arrival at ces!......during a lightbearers experience in her in rez corps days, she became pretty notorious for a "confrontation" she had with a poor "possessed" person they had successfully harangued into going to their twi promo twig in, i believe, columbia, mo..........kag spent several hours in a melodramatic "spiritual battle" with a "legion of devil spirits" tormenting this poor soul whom they had met at this twig........kag was able, through her deft operation of "all 9 all the time", to coerce many of the spurts to name and identify themselves, eventually climaxing with the exposure and conversation with the resident "daimon", or "5-star general" in command of this evil host!.....the daimon said it's name was SWA-TRA-TRA..........the name our Strange friend has invoked several times on this thread!..........(thanks Tom, for bringing your old pal back into the limelight!.......LOL!)..............SWATRATRA described how it maintained command of such a motley crew, and, during the interview, even revealed the names of some well-known people, who were "born again of the wrong seed", as twi doctrine labelled it!.......three of the notables i remember being mentioned were, barbara streisand, steven spielberg and muhammad ali........yup.......that's what ole swatratra said alright!........whatever the final outcome was for the poor person supplying the "home" for swatratra and friends was, the info on the tape kag made of this session, (that's right!,...it was audio taped).......was so spiritually "heavy", that vic played the tape for the in-rez corps at emporia, after he heard it, and also at the advanced class at emporia later that summer!.......many, myself included, thought the whole thing was a joke, or some kind of quirky little "trap" vic was setting for the new students at the ac, and that he would expose the trap and use it as a launching pad for some tirade on how "spiritually asleep" all the attendees were or some such foolish thing.........he had been known to do such things before...........but NO!!!.......this was for real!!!..........well, there were generally 2 camps among the corps which grew out of the response to the content of the tape.......one, amazed at how accurate the teaching in the ac was, and how great the operation of the revelation and power manifestations could be for every believer!.......the other, amazed at how ridiculous the whole thing was!...........it endeared kag to her fellow corps members in a jocular way........she received the nickname of swatratra and later on, was nicknamed endora by the members of her in-rez corps twig!......one in-rez corps twig even named itself swatratra in her "honor"!!.......after that, i always referred to kag as swatratra, in honor of the incredulity of it all........probably a little overly sarcastic,...but, come on!!!
when jalvis was the lc of ny, the graeser's graduated the corps and were assigned as area leaders for the rochester area in ny.......it was during this time, that the fateful, close relationship between the graeser's and jalvis began.........and lasted all the way through december, 2006!.........apparently, the 4 other members of the ces founding bod, were no more impressed with the graeser's than i was.........and, their coming to be on the bod was a divisive bone of contention between jalvis and the other 4...........especially when it came to swatratra herself!.......yup,....the old nickname popped up again during the discussions regarding the graeser's and john schoenheit becoming members of the ces bod!........it was jalvis who insisted that those three would make outstanding additions to the bod, while the other 4 rejected that thinking.......you see, jalvis was still deeply entrenched in twi doctrine, and thought that schoenheit's "research accumen" and the graeser's "spiritual" and "intellectual savvy" would be "tremendous assets" to ces in the years to come!...........the others disagreed.......and, as posted here previously, eventually all resigned from ces because of this, momentus promotion, and other issues involving jalvis' inability to reject and let go of all previous twi doctrine.......a big need which the other members of the founding board felt was absolutely necessary if ces was to be what they envisioned it to be.......none of those other 4 has ever been involved with ces since their resignations..........and, imho, jalvis, as well as the other members of the ces leadership, remained entrenched in most of twi's doctrine, even to this day!.........this is TRUE despite their vehement and longwinded protests to the contrary, imo!
so, the roots of kag's role as "chief prophetess" for ces are deeply set in twi, and vic's style of "leadership" prowess in the "spiritual battle"!.......added to that mix was momentus, and bill hamon's outfit in florida, where ces learned the "basics" of their foolish personal prophecy practices.........quite a "witches brew" of dysfunctional christian theology and "ministry", imo!!.......frankly, i am surprised that john schoenheit and jalvis have so totally bought into the whole personal prophecy baloney!.........imo, it is just another experiential freak show from the fringes of fundamentalist christian lunacy!........it elevates the experiences of a few vocal, personable "leaders" to the level of "right doctrine"........and, just like vic, who often proclaimed that "experience is no guarantee for truth",........ they have wasted countless hours manipulating and "privately interperetting" the bible until it proves that their doctine regarding personal prophecy is not only "right", but more "biblically accurate" than anyone else's!!........i'm sure that both swatratra and vic would be very proud of what stf has accomplished with their personal prophecy!!!............rampant, arrogant, destructive, interpersonal and "spiritual" dysfunction.......which has torn apart numerous marriages, longstanding friendships and not a few individual christian lives!!........shame on you ces/stf "servant/leaders" for the experiental tomfoolery you teach as "right doctrine", and for the havoc you have wreaked within the body of christ!
sorry for the length of yet another post on this already lengthy thread............i suppose there's plenty more to say about this........but, that's enough from me for now!.....................peace.
Ok, you've enlightened us to the origins of swatratra (it's amazing how those nuggets of disinformation regarding Streisand, Spielberg, and Ali filtered down to the rank and file), what is the origins of the vis at the end of JAL's initials? Jalvis?  Color me curious too..
Hey dmiller!...........unfortunately, i have no personal knowledge of exactly what role greg pharis played in the institutionalization of personal porophecy within the bowels of ces/stf.......i know that he was the single most influential practitioner of it in the lives of the graeser's while they were in florida, where they were introduced by him to personal prophecy as a powerful weapon in their ministerial arsenal, and that he was very involved with jalvis, and schoenheit in their beginnings with personal prophecy........and he was fairly prominent at various ces/stf "events" for a while........florida church international or something like that, was the name of pharis' original home church, i think.....i dunno for sure........but, eventually there was some major doctrinal difference between pharis and ces/stf, and pharis rapidly faded out of the picture...........i paid scant attention to ces through the 90's, and the occasional phone call from jalvis was my only exposure to what they were up to at the time........maybe tzaia, or cinderpelt could offer more accurate info.
Tom Strange.........any hits on your google search???
The whole issue of personal prophecy gives me flashbacks. I was involved with a charismatic group in California in the late 1960s that was heavily into this counterfeit, and I saw how much damage it did in people's lives. I received many prophecies and gave many (may God forgive me; I was spiritually very naive). The only ones that edified anyone were those that didn't involve specific guidance for the recipient but were more like those one would hear in twi...words of encouragement.
I found an interesting thread on the apparently now-defunct CES Dialogue board. The posts are from the year 2000, back when there was still diaglogue allowed on their Web site, and people were expressing their concerns about pp way back then. Here's the link:
I may buy the book by John Bevere, Thus Saith the Lord, which someone in that thread recommends. I'm curious as to when, in modern times, this dangerous movement started and how it spread.
It is my firm belief that the CES proponents of this crap have been deceived into thinking they can snap their fingers and demand God to spew forth prophecies whenever they (the deceived ones) want them. That is soooooooo contrary to anything I understand from the Bible.
When Karen Ann got engaged to Mark, the joke among the Corps who knew them was that perhaps marriage would fulfill some need in her that wasn't being met, so she would quit talking incessantly. Apparently she's still pretty vocal! I guess it didn't work. :(
The whole issue of personal prophecy gives me flashbacks. I was involved with a charismatic group in California in the late 1960s that was heavily into this counterfeit, and I saw how much damage it did in people's lives. I received many prophecies and gave many (may God forgive me; I was spiritually very naive). The only ones that edified anyone were those that didn't involve specific guidance for the recipient but were more like those one would hear in twi...words of encouragement.
So this Personal Prophecy thing has been around for quite a time. I wonder did Paul and crew have to deal with this kind of stuff in the first century? Or was the manifestation to new at that time?
I know that when I was in residence many folks, including myself would write down different prophecies or interpretations when they were done (which was very often). I still have one that I put on my wall. It wasnt a "personal prophecy" but it has helped me to keep my course straight through the years...so I guess you could say that I made it personal.
DWBH-I just love that story about Swatratra. Thanks for sharing it again. :) I think had I been in the Corps when you were I would have been in the "You've got to be kidding" crowd.
So this Personal Prophecy thing has been around for quite a time. I wonder did Paul and crew have to deal with this kind of stuff in the first century? Or was the manifestation to new at that time?
I think there is a record of personal prophecy in Acts 16. Remember Paul's thorn in the flesh? The woman saying, "these men are the servants of the most high God..." :)
I think there is a record of personal prophecy in Acts 16. Remember Paul's thorn in the flesh? The woman saying, "these men are the servants of the most high God..." :)
Chrispy
Ahh, quite right! Some little memory was nagging at the back of my brain when I was writing my last post but I didn't want to claim something that I could not remember clearly. Thank you for supplying it.
Oh...way off topic...I found some Rum that Rich can enjoy with us next year at the Q! I am very excited about it!
Ok, I'm done with the commercial now...back to regular programming.
The origin of JALvis: One of the things John Ashton Lynn (JAL) often did for the Corps at Emporia during the yearly Staff Talent Show was to dress up like Elvis and lip-sync, billing himself as JALvis ... it was quite the sight ...quite amusing.
Sunesis, this happened your interim year, my last year in rez while at RC after Jan. 78 sometime. You should have heard how Del promoed it...he left the door wide open to any one who had half a brain to understand what he REALLY thought about it....BUT he didn't actually say it was krap, just let you come to that conclusion if you listened close enough. Del was a master....
The stuff was rank, so many of us could not believe this was being palmed off as real .....
So this Personal Prophecy thing has been around for quite a time. I wonder did Paul and crew have to deal with this kind of stuff in the first century? Or was the manifestation to new at that time?
Acts 16:16-18 (King James Version)
16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Acts 16:16-18 (NASB)
16It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
17Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
18She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment.
==========
I say this was old news long before that.
II Chronicles 18:4-23 (KJV)
4And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
5Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand.
6But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
7And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
8And the king of Israel called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.
9And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
10And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the LORD, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed.
11And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
12And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of their's, and speak thou good.
13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.
14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
15And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?
16Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.
17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil?
18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
23Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
=========
And here's how I broke that down....
Let's look it over.
" 4And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
5Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand.
6But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?"
Wow, 400 "personal prophets", and not one of the LORD among them.
"7And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so. "
Ohh, what a bad boy that Michaiah is! He's always speaking all those negatives! He must
never have learned that Godly communications are REQUIRED to be all cheerful and light,
never saying anything bad, never warning about problems, never exposing evil,
and never confronting evil.
" 8And the king of Israel called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.
9And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them. "
Wow, they got the full act.
" 10And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the LORD, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed."
Zedekiah really knows how to wow an audience. He's got flair and drama in play
while he delivers his personal prophecy.
" 11And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
12And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of their's, and speak thou good.
13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak."
That Micaiah is NOT a team player. He also doesn't know about tailoring his message
to the audience like the 400 other guys.
" 14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
15And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?
16Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.
17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil? "
Real prophets risk their lives giving messages they know the people won't want, and accept they
are set at naught and despised for it. REAL prophets don't get cushy jobs.
" 18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. "
So, we see there are 2 ways to be a personal prophet.
One is to speak words from one's own self and claim they are of God,
the other is to speak words from a lying spirit and claim they are of God.
" 23Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee? "
That Zedekiah knows how to keep his stage-act up. Even exposed, he's trying to discredit a REAL
prophet and claim he HIMSELF speaks the truth.
===================
As someone else pointed out,
God gave a very simple standard-
and a very simple consequence-
for telling TRUE prophets and words from God,
from personal prophets and words from other-than-God.
Deuternomy 18:20-22.
(KJV)
" 20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
For those of you who missed it, here it is in the NASB.
" 20But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
21You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. "
This is very simple.
If a prophet speaks a prophecy, and ANY prophecy he speaks fails, he is a false prophet.
If 99.999% of his prophecies come true, and 1 in 100,000 fails, he is a false prophet.
What were they to do with false prophets?
They were to kill them a lot.
Thus, prophets whose prophecies "USUALLY" or "OFTEN" were accurate, but OCCASIONALLY
fail are false prophets and should be killed.
As we've all seen, even people trying to justify the utterances of the CES/STFI
"personal prophetess" have said she's not accurate 100% of the time,
which the Bible says makes her a FALSE prophet, and Israel was supposed
to kill those.
Fine, we don't kill them in the US. We don't even slap them in the face.
We can AT THE VERY LEAST follow GOD'S injunction and not respect them any more.
And I still want to know why their entire organization needs an anonymous outsider
like me to explain all this when they've had over a decade to work it out.
If I was a supporter of CES/STFI, I'd have some burning questions concerning
the management of the group, and just how well they really understand the Bible
.......whatever the final outcome was for the poor person supplying the "home" for swatratra and friends was, the info on the tape kag made of this session, (that's right!,...it was audio taped).......was so spiritually "heavy", that vic played the tape for the in-rez corps at emporia, after he heard it, and also at the advanced class at emporia later that summer!.......
Interesting. Perhaps somebody figured a way to make it back from lighbearers without putting together a class..
"Sowy chief, the best we could do was to just cast out a legion of spurts.."
"oh, here's the tape"
reminds me another 'stowry" I've heard.. about some guy who supposedly raised his pig from the dead on the way to market, so as to be able to sell said pig for plane fare to the roa..
the guy involved apparently sounded pretty convincing..
Is this the bottom line of the lawsuit, the future marketability of MG? I dunno?
Are we talking about EL as the woman who did the dirty work and about her going public with that letter not being a smart move? Do you think it was blown out of proportion or the catalyst that made all those fragile ces relationships fail?
No, EL did not do the dirty work. EL's stuff was handed off to CC who posted them here.
People get the idea they know these people when they live a day's drive away. Not so. Even I was unaware of how dysfunctional it was until I started spending a day a week there. It didn't take a long time to see the light.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
pond
I do not think so..
Mark and KG have spent their life involved in "moving the word" in twi and ces and stf.. theyare loyal to the cause.
I do not pretend to know motives now or then.
But
they left florida and sold their business Mark was washing windows on John Lynn call for them to join , they moved their family they once again did it all for the cause.
then Mark began school and I would think with the hopes this is his career ..
blam
disagreements begins and he is suppose to say to his middle age wife and college age kids( 4 I think )oops my bad AGAIN?
geez life is difficult but at what point do we say enough is enough and take it back?
it is surly a wake of destruction of lifes and maybe they just are angry after all these years and years of being told what to do with their life and have it fall apart once again .
just guessing lol but
what people should do has been dictated to them for decades and now they are just done?
nah not a little pill to swallow.
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Tzaia
From what I was told, JB became verbally abusive towards at least one of MG kid's who was working in the office at the time. I don't know if the kid was on the payroll or there as a volunteer, but it was JB's habit to harass those he did not like (usually women) until they left. JB did not like KAG walking in and having any sort of say in anything in the office, so it was only a matter of time with her. All the other wives stayed away for the most part.
Now I'm just speculating here, but I can imagine that it came down kind of like this: This round of verbal abuse became personal and Mark went way out of his comfort zone to address the issue. It's been happening for years to every other female who's ever worked there, including EL, but this time it's family. JB is given a warning and he's fine for a week and then he does it again and MG lets him go. JB gets DG on 'his' side and MG tells him to leave as well (these events happened). That makes MG the opposition. The typical CES response (at least at first) is to hone in on a weakness in the 'opposition'. In this case, it's KAG because, IMO, she's been losing ground in her ability to function (I would NOT be surprised if she's in the early stages of Alzheimer's) and MG has been dealing with that. This would be along the lines of "MG's just not thinking straight on this one due to 'home problems'", which others have already alluded to. Rather than JB owning up to his part in the situation, he gets DG involved, which isn't all that hard because of his view towards women. They both gang up on MG, bringing JAL into it because JAL can be easily convinced to do just about anything by these guys, including divorcing his wife (he was very conflicted about it, but that didn't stop him). The Thiesen's are up in Michigan and don't have a clue concerning the dysfunction of the office as everyone is on their best behavior when they do show up. MG is far less persuasive than DG, so the Thiesan's side with JB and DG and that finishes MG because JWS just wants to get along with the majority.
JB gets CC involved through EL and gets the ammunition out here to discredit MG via KAG. I still don't know why that was necessary as every last one of them was involved in this PP thing about EL (the evidence was on the server and I had unlimited access to the server), and numerous others, including me. But it's strange how they can play like they had no major part in it when they did. I'm guessing THAT's what ....ed MG off. I am aware that a letter from MG went to people on the mailing list, but he didn't put it out on a website for all to see and he doesn't appreciate things being out there for just anyone to pick up on - and I don't blame him. All you have to do is do a google search on his name and BAM! it's right up there in the top 10. It doesn't make him particularly marketable when it comes to getting a job, so, they have defamed him. What's more is that they got someone else to do their dirty work and her name is embedded in the documents. Not a smart move on her part.
The truth of the matter is if you're not there, you have no idea who to trust or believe. I only believe what I personally experienced. While this PP thing is bulls---, it is also serving to deflect the real issues.
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pond
It was when KG taught that i realized something was wrong very wrong.
she did this teaching and it must have been stupid because i do not remember one word of it but this part i remember and stuff that sticks in my brain sticks for a reason.
so she is blah blah blah and somone asks a question and she says no questions although she had been researching this teaching for a long long time... ? so off she goes boring then after another question.. and she says.
"you will have to ask my husband about that part!"
karen if your reading this
why did you say that?
both me and my friend looked at each other and realized this was fried just fried.
a teaching she taught a teaching she had researched but one simple question and she says ask Mark.
i was done then.
maybe you cant understand in the manner Im explaining it but it is so clear
something was wrong very wrong.
you think she is mentally ill?
really?
why?
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Eyesopen
While I appreciate the desire to move the Word as many of us were want to do while in twi, and I totally understand the desire to continue to or reintroduce sweet fellowship with believers I fail to understanding why anyone would continually try to resusitate a broken system. TWI was a corporation. It ultimately was not geared towards Godly fellowship or spiritual growth. It was geared towards stock market growth. CES and STF are corporations. They may have once but no longer seem to promote Godly fellowship or spiritual growth.
Exactly so...when will the BOD's of STF or CES realize that they are being blown about by erroneous winds of doctrine? Once upon a time their intentions may have been good and righteous. What are they now? What are these winds of doctrine? What is the fruit of this ministry?
Kudos to the 4 original BODs that walked away from CES, Momentus and Swatratra and crew! It is a shame that some still fell to the stale doctrines and beliefs.
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Tom Strange
Swatratra!!! (don't you dare listen to him! her?)
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now I see
Is this the bottom line of the lawsuit, the future marketability of MG? I dunno?
Are we talking about EL as the woman who did the dirty work and about her going public with that letter not being a smart move?  Do you think it was blown out of proportion or the catalyst that made all those fragile ces relationships fail?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi everybody!.........tzaia,.....thanks for your posts.......it's nice to have some input from a former "insider", or at least from someone who had a firsthand experience with what appears to be, the generalized dysfunction that is the daily routine at the STF "home office"!.......imho, it is the word dysfunction which best describes the interpersonal realtionships at the 'home office" among the stf principals........however, this is not somehting new which developed during the last several years......it's a longstanding badge worn by these folks for some 30 years now, imo!
as i stated previously on this thread, the addition of the graeser's to the original ces bod was a major bone of contention between jalvis and the 4 other "founding members" of the ces board. mrs. graeser, imo, had exhibitted psychosocial eccentricities long before her arrival at ces!......during a lightbearers experience in her in rez corps days, she became pretty notorious for a "confrontation" she had with a poor "possessed" person they had successfully harangued into going to their twi promo twig in, i believe, columbia, mo..........kag spent several hours in a melodramatic "spiritual battle" with a "legion of devil spirits" tormenting this poor soul whom they had met at this twig........kag was able, through her deft operation of "all 9 all the time", to coerce many of the spurts to name and identify themselves, eventually climaxing with the exposure and conversation with the resident "daimon", or "5-star general" in command of this evil host!.....the daimon said it's name was SWA-TRA-TRA..........the name our Strange friend has invoked several times on this thread!..........(thanks Tom, for bringing your old pal back into the limelight!.......LOL!)..............SWATRATRA described how it maintained command of such a motley crew, and, during the interview, even revealed the names of some well-known people, who were "born again of the wrong seed", as twi doctrine labelled it!.......three of the notables i remember being mentioned were, barbara streisand, steven spielberg and muhammad ali........yup.......that's what ole swatratra said alright!........whatever the final outcome was for the poor person supplying the "home" for swatratra and friends was, the info on the tape kag made of this session, (that's right!,...it was audio taped).......was so spiritually "heavy", that vic played the tape for the in-rez corps at emporia, after he heard it, and also at the advanced class at emporia later that summer!.......many, myself included, thought the whole thing was a joke, or some kind of quirky little "trap" vic was setting for the new students at the ac, and that he would expose the trap and use it as a launching pad for some tirade on how "spiritually asleep" all the attendees were or some such foolish thing.........he had been known to do such things before...........but NO!!!.......this was for real!!!..........well, there were generally 2 camps among the corps which grew out of the response to the content of the tape.......one, amazed at how accurate the teaching in the ac was, and how great the operation of the revelation and power manifestations could be for every believer!.......the other, amazed at how ridiculous the whole thing was!...........it endeared kag to her fellow corps members in a jocular way........she received the nickname of swatratra and later on, was nicknamed endora by the members of her in-rez corps twig!......one in-rez corps twig even named itself swatratra in her "honor"!!.......after that, i always referred to kag as swatratra, in honor of the incredulity of it all........probably a little overly sarcastic,...but, come on!!!
when jalvis was the lc of ny, the graeser's graduated the corps and were assigned as area leaders for the rochester area in ny.......it was during this time, that the fateful, close relationship between the graeser's and jalvis began.........and lasted all the way through december, 2006!.........apparently, the 4 other members of the ces founding bod, were no more impressed with the graeser's than i was.........and, their coming to be on the bod was a divisive bone of contention between jalvis and the other 4...........especially when it came to swatratra herself!.......yup,....the old nickname popped up again during the discussions regarding the graeser's and john schoenheit becoming members of the ces bod!........it was jalvis who insisted that those three would make outstanding additions to the bod, while the other 4 rejected that thinking.......you see, jalvis was still deeply entrenched in twi doctrine, and thought that schoenheit's "research accumen" and the graeser's "spiritual" and "intellectual savvy" would be "tremendous assets" to ces in the years to come!...........the others disagreed.......and, as posted here previously, eventually all resigned from ces because of this, momentus promotion, and other issues involving jalvis' inability to reject and let go of all previous twi doctrine.......a big need which the other members of the founding board felt was absolutely necessary if ces was to be what they envisioned it to be.......none of those other 4 has ever been involved with ces since their resignations..........and, imho, jalvis, as well as the other members of the ces leadership, remained entrenched in most of twi's doctrine, even to this day!.........this is TRUE despite their vehement and longwinded protests to the contrary, imo!
so, the roots of kag's role as "chief prophetess" for ces are deeply set in twi, and vic's style of "leadership" prowess in the "spiritual battle"!.......added to that mix was momentus, and bill hamon's outfit in florida, where ces learned the "basics" of their foolish personal prophecy practices.........quite a "witches brew" of dysfunctional christian theology and "ministry", imo!!.......frankly, i am surprised that john schoenheit and jalvis have so totally bought into the whole personal prophecy baloney!.........imo, it is just another experiential freak show from the fringes of fundamentalist christian lunacy!........it elevates the experiences of a few vocal, personable "leaders" to the level of "right doctrine"........and, just like vic, who often proclaimed that "experience is no guarantee for truth",........ they have wasted countless hours manipulating and "privately interperetting" the bible until it proves that their doctine regarding personal prophecy is not only "right", but more "biblically accurate" than anyone else's!!........i'm sure that both swatratra and vic would be very proud of what stf has accomplished with their personal prophecy!!!............rampant, arrogant, destructive, interpersonal and "spiritual" dysfunction.......which has torn apart numerous marriages, longstanding friendships and not a few individual christian lives!!........shame on you ces/stf "servant/leaders" for the experiental tomfoolery you teach as "right doctrine", and for the havoc you have wreaked within the body of christ!
sorry for the length of yet another post on this already lengthy thread............i suppose there's plenty more to say about this........but, that's enough from me for now!.....................peace.
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Tom Strange
thanks for giving us the history of swatratra DWBH... I was just responding to our sister that looks like Angelina Jolie!
hmmm... maybe I'll go google swatratra and see how many hits I get...
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dmiller
DWBH -- what do you know (if anything) about Greg Pharis and his take on Personal Prophecy??
He was *instrumental* (if I recollect correct) with the ces promotion thereof.
Color me curious. :)
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now I see
Ok, you've enlightened us to the origins of swatratra (it's amazing how those nuggets of disinformation regarding Streisand, Spielberg, and Ali filtered down to the rank and file), what is the origins of the vis at the end of JAL's initials? Jalvis?  Color me curious too..
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hey dmiller!...........unfortunately, i have no personal knowledge of exactly what role greg pharis played in the institutionalization of personal porophecy within the bowels of ces/stf.......i know that he was the single most influential practitioner of it in the lives of the graeser's while they were in florida, where they were introduced by him to personal prophecy as a powerful weapon in their ministerial arsenal, and that he was very involved with jalvis, and schoenheit in their beginnings with personal prophecy........and he was fairly prominent at various ces/stf "events" for a while........florida church international or something like that, was the name of pharis' original home church, i think.....i dunno for sure........but, eventually there was some major doctrinal difference between pharis and ces/stf, and pharis rapidly faded out of the picture...........i paid scant attention to ces through the 90's, and the occasional phone call from jalvis was my only exposure to what they were up to at the time........maybe tzaia, or cinderpelt could offer more accurate info.
Tom Strange.........any hits on your google search???
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Tom Strange
DWBH... only two hits! ...both of them led to GSC so I guess either KAG did a good job on ol' Swatratra or...
butnowIsee: when you read JALvis, think of "the king"...
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now I see
Tom, thanks! Â How appropriate, a legend in his own mind!
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pond
it is wrong just wrong to go on and on about the devil .
for what purpose does anyone need to know any of that stuff?
does it help or serve people or God?
barbra is jew ali is a moslem so this is about hate it is about hate and throwing stones at another religion.
so why would God tell KAG about these "spirits" hmm for what just so we learn to hate another of Gods creation?
so off the mark of loving that Jesus lives for today and all eternity.
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Linda Z
The whole issue of personal prophecy gives me flashbacks. I was involved with a charismatic group in California in the late 1960s that was heavily into this counterfeit, and I saw how much damage it did in people's lives. I received many prophecies and gave many (may God forgive me; I was spiritually very naive). The only ones that edified anyone were those that didn't involve specific guidance for the recipient but were more like those one would hear in twi...words of encouragement.
I found an interesting thread on the apparently now-defunct CES Dialogue board. The posts are from the year 2000, back when there was still diaglogue allowed on their Web site, and people were expressing their concerns about pp way back then. Here's the link:
http://ex-ces.faithweb.com/Personal%20Prop...%202%20532.html
I may buy the book by John Bevere, Thus Saith the Lord, which someone in that thread recommends. I'm curious as to when, in modern times, this dangerous movement started and how it spread.
It is my firm belief that the CES proponents of this crap have been deceived into thinking they can snap their fingers and demand God to spew forth prophecies whenever they (the deceived ones) want them. That is soooooooo contrary to anything I understand from the Bible.
When Karen Ann got engaged to Mark, the joke among the Corps who knew them was that perhaps marriage would fulfill some need in her that wasn't being met, so she would quit talking incessantly. Apparently she's still pretty vocal! I guess it didn't work. :(
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Eyesopen
So this Personal Prophecy thing has been around for quite a time. I wonder did Paul and crew have to deal with this kind of stuff in the first century? Or was the manifestation to new at that time?
I know that when I was in residence many folks, including myself would write down different prophecies or interpretations when they were done (which was very often). I still have one that I put on my wall. It wasnt a "personal prophecy" but it has helped me to keep my course straight through the years...so I guess you could say that I made it personal.
DWBH-I just love that story about Swatratra. Thanks for sharing it again. :) I think had I been in the Corps when you were I would have been in the "You've got to be kidding" crowd.
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richnchrispy
I think there is a record of personal prophecy in Acts 16. Remember Paul's thorn in the flesh? The woman saying, "these men are the servants of the most high God..." :)
Chrispy
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Eyesopen
Ahh, quite right! Some little memory was nagging at the back of my brain when I was writing my last post but I didn't want to claim something that I could not remember clearly. Thank you for supplying it.
Oh...way off topic...I found some Rum that Rich can enjoy with us next year at the Q! I am very excited about it!
Ok, I'm done with the commercial now...back to regular programming.
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DogLover
The origin of JALvis: One of the things John Ashton Lynn (JAL) often did for the Corps at Emporia during the yearly Staff Talent Show was to dress up like Elvis and lip-sync, billing himself as JALvis ... it was quite the sight ...quite amusing.
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Sunesis
Swatratra = LOL!!! If this wasn't real I'd think it was an awful joke.
I was in her corps, how did I miss this, and the tape and VP playing it? Oh well, glad I did.
That poor lady somewhere in MO.....
Thanks DWBH for all your sharing with us.
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alfakat
Sunesis, this happened your interim year, my last year in rez while at RC after Jan. 78 sometime. You should have heard how Del promoed it...he left the door wide open to any one who had half a brain to understand what he REALLY thought about it....BUT he didn't actually say it was krap, just let you come to that conclusion if you listened close enough. Del was a master....
The stuff was rank, so many of us could not believe this was being palmed off as real
.....
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WordWolf
Acts 16:16-18 (King James Version)
16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Acts 16:16-18 (NASB)
16It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
17Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
18She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment.
==========
I say this was old news long before that.
II Chronicles 18:4-23 (KJV)
4And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
5Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand.
6But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
7And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
8And the king of Israel called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.
9And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
10And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the LORD, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed.
11And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
12And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of their's, and speak thou good.
13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.
14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
15And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?
16Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.
17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil?
18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
23Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
=========
And here's how I broke that down....
Let's look it over.
" 4And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Enquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
5Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand.
6But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?"
Wow, 400 "personal prophets", and not one of the LORD among them.
"7And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so. "
Ohh, what a bad boy that Michaiah is! He's always speaking all those negatives! He must
never have learned that Godly communications are REQUIRED to be all cheerful and light,
never saying anything bad, never warning about problems, never exposing evil,
and never confronting evil.
" 8And the king of Israel called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.
9And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them. "
Wow, they got the full act.
" 10And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith the LORD, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed."
Zedekiah really knows how to wow an audience. He's got flair and drama in play
while he delivers his personal prophecy.
" 11And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
12And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of their's, and speak thou good.
13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak."
That Micaiah is NOT a team player. He also doesn't know about tailoring his message
to the audience like the 400 other guys.
" 14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
15And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of the LORD?
16Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.
17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil? "
Real prophets risk their lives giving messages they know the people won't want, and accept they
are set at naught and despised for it. REAL prophets don't get cushy jobs.
" 18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. "
So, we see there are 2 ways to be a personal prophet.
One is to speak words from one's own self and claim they are of God,
the other is to speak words from a lying spirit and claim they are of God.
" 23Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee? "
That Zedekiah knows how to keep his stage-act up. Even exposed, he's trying to discredit a REAL
prophet and claim he HIMSELF speaks the truth.
===================
As someone else pointed out,
God gave a very simple standard-
and a very simple consequence-
for telling TRUE prophets and words from God,
from personal prophets and words from other-than-God.
Deuternomy 18:20-22.
(KJV)
" 20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
For those of you who missed it, here it is in the NASB.
" 20But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
21You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. "
This is very simple.
If a prophet speaks a prophecy, and ANY prophecy he speaks fails, he is a false prophet.
If 99.999% of his prophecies come true, and 1 in 100,000 fails, he is a false prophet.
What were they to do with false prophets?
They were to kill them a lot.
Thus, prophets whose prophecies "USUALLY" or "OFTEN" were accurate, but OCCASIONALLY
fail are false prophets and should be killed.
As we've all seen, even people trying to justify the utterances of the CES/STFI
"personal prophetess" have said she's not accurate 100% of the time,
which the Bible says makes her a FALSE prophet, and Israel was supposed
to kill those.
Fine, we don't kill them in the US. We don't even slap them in the face.
We can AT THE VERY LEAST follow GOD'S injunction and not respect them any more.
And I still want to know why their entire organization needs an anonymous outsider
like me to explain all this when they've had over a decade to work it out.
If I was a supporter of CES/STFI, I'd have some burning questions concerning
the management of the group, and just how well they really understand the Bible
if they could make mistakes of this magnitude.
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Ham
!
Interesting. Perhaps somebody figured a way to make it back from lighbearers without putting together a class..
"Sowy chief, the best we could do was to just cast out a legion of spurts.."
"oh, here's the tape"
reminds me another 'stowry" I've heard.. about some guy who supposedly raised his pig from the dead on the way to market, so as to be able to sell said pig for plane fare to the roa..
the guy involved apparently sounded pretty convincing..
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Tzaia
No, EL did not do the dirty work. EL's stuff was handed off to CC who posted them here.
People get the idea they know these people when they live a day's drive away. Not so. Even I was unaware of how dysfunctional it was until I started spending a day a week there. It didn't take a long time to see the light.
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