JEFF BLACKBURN/JOHN LYNN...IS THE CRISIS OVER?

[GrouchoMarxJr]

No tellin' for sure what it did to them...but I saw, first hand, a BUNCH of Momentus grads whose lives wetre so dysfuntional that they could barely make it through a day...these people were really screwed up!...

...when they finally understood that I was NOT going to be taking Momentus, they turned on me like snakes....One of them screamed "What do you have to hide?"...that was enough for me...I would guess that these "Momentus grads" are emotional basketcases that are on the verge of nervous breakdowns...

[Ham]

Hmm. One thought.. what's in it for jl? He's pimping the thing as recently as 2006.

maybe he thinks it's public service.. naw...

only thing I can think.. to promote something like this, even privately to an individual, knowing full well what the experience is like..

the promoter has to be some kind of goon..

I almost feel it's about time for someone to pipe up and say, "hey, I didn't get no disease from it.."

I think the person is "lucky" if they didn't.

[now I see]

I sort of get the impression with the Ces/stfi "leaders" that at some point way on down the road, they finally realize that what they're promoting is harming their people, and it's like, oops, we had no idea??

Sounds like by the time they realize this, the damage is done, such as with the personal prophecy, prophetic council, and the momentus.

Either they're not listening to people until it gains critical mass, not pasturing the flock, or not the kind of people that should have the oversight of others. What kind of irresponsibility is this where they allow so many to fall prey to these stray winds.

They also seem like they're intentionally dismissing those who had the negative feedback over the

momentus and personal prophecy, because they're still privately endorsing momentus to individuals and endorsing personal prophecy wholesale.

Makes you wonder about them as people. I also wonder why the are meddling so much in people's personal lives.  One of the great reliefs for me when I broke away from Twi and offshoots was not having so many acquaintenances examining my life and judging me.

Edited December 11, 2007 by but now I see

[now I see]

I thought these past posts here on the CES forum help illustrate the insidious dark side of personal prophecy practices and of the CES organization:

One poster said concerning CES and the personal prophecy doctrines:

"… Too often I have couched my words here only to find myself in a bigger mess than if I had just come out and said what I was thinking just like I was thinking it.

As for CES et al...I saw all of this coming...even visited people's homes and spent many hours on the telephone with people who were shredded by these 'personal prophecies'...have been ripped a new in the extwi online communities for blaring out the warning claxon.

I still don't get, a)why rebuild Babylon, and, b)why so shocked when the tower is tossed down?"

From an ex CES follower:

What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the plethora of day-to-day 'prophecies' served up to leadership and followers alike, especially those who chose to dissent on some matter. Those who dissent have been (and in my experience up to this month) are still being handled just as Belle so well outlined. If they 'stay down' all looks peaceful again. If they do not, they get another 'word,' another round of 'counseling' with leadership, or more 'loving' phone calls. And if that does not keep them down, they must be discredited before they talk to you and 'take you out'. (All under the guise of protecting the sheep of course.)

What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the torment people have been put through, the many ungodly incidents people have detailed to CES Board members, the dismissals such as "you're the only one who has brought this up," 'your perspective is skewed," "I didn't finish reading your letter because I've heard it all before," the attacks such as "you are utterly incapable of handling honest communication and love," "you don't have the heart or skills to ___", and the grease-spot-type threats, "you don't want to fight against what God is fighting for."

What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the day-to-day 'advice' full of psychological mumbo-jumbo (sold as--and probably believed to be--Christian) used to accuse many people of 'needing psychiatric help', used to counsel many couples who are now divorced, and used to literally tell people to get a divorce because it will 'help wake up' their errant spouse.

This sin and more needs to be brought into the open, not so people can count these brothers and sisters as enemies, but so people can admonish them as brothers and make a decision to pray for them (who else will?), and also can choose whom they will follow/support, not just regarding this tiny thing called CES but in all of life."

Doesn’t sound too equitable to me, sounds like old twi tactics. Nice practices John.

"prophetic council" was CES/STFI's response to the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks on the usa. he said, that , following 9/11, various CES/STFI followers from around the country and the world, wrote of "visions" and "dreams" they had experienced of "burning skyscrapers" or "airplanes crashing into buildings", prior to the actual events of 9/11. john said, "i'm not saying that we might have prevented 9/11 from happening, but if we had had a cleainghouse of some sort, to gather and evaluate such "visions", then perhaps we could have at least alerted our followers that our country was in need of fervent prayer, because of imminent threat".

It is truly mind blowing to learn from the horse’s mouth that their ministry started the prophetic council as a knee jerk reaction to fear.

Guess it’s that same fear that some have craftily employed to lord over others, while using it and our country’s justice system to shut the mouths of those involved, in my opinion….

[Ham]

and the grease-spot-type threats, "you don't want to fight against what God is fighting for."

of course it usually stops just short of "or else".

I'm really starting to think that God hates these kind of organizations.. maybe not the people.. but the daggone politics, hard-heartedness and manipulation.. casual dismissal of real destruction they cause.

why not just be something that God would want to fight FOR..

[Ham]

but they just keep chanting the same mantra.. "we've got DA WORD like it's not been known since the first century"..

quote enough bible verses.. that should make things clean. Or should it?

I remember something from the old testament about that. Can holding "holy flesh" make the unholy holy? Something Ezekiel asked, I think..

[Sunesis]

All those people in CES/STFI who had dreams and visions before 9/11

How is that any different from all the psychics who got the same info?

I am beginning to think this personal prophecy is just medium/clairvoyant/fortune telling, but with a new name just for gullible Christians - personal prophecy

I do not believe it is from God.

I believe the same spirits who channel and possess mediums so they can give their "word" are the same spirits giving the "personal prophecies."

Sorry if its harsh, but look at the prophecies, look at the results, look at the fruit.

It reminds me of the 2nd church in the Book of Revelation (which is written for us to learn from) - they have gone the way of Balaam - i.e., embracing false prophets and prophecies of demons in their fellowship. Its right there in Revelations. It happened in the church of Pyrgamos - and in many today.

Christ says "Repent." Repent - its serious.

CES/STFI needs to get this evil out of their midst.

If not, it will die the same slow death as TWI. God does not want any of his led astray from him and Christ, into this.

[T-Bone]

Don't Worry Be Happy, this is one amazing thread! An interesting juxtaposition of two paths:

1. The ramifications of holding/developing certain erroneous doctrines of TWI while still harboring certain aspects of the TWI mindset [as evidenced in the CES/STFI issues] – really a continuance of the same old treacherous path that was mapped out by vic [same bu11$h!t, different name].

2. The healing, insight, wisdom, understanding and compassion that is found on the trail of true humility – obviously the path that YOU have chosen DWBH – qualities that abound in the great folks at Grease Spot – that's why I come here! It's an environment conducive to mending…strengthening…empowering! A humble person realizes where they made mistakes and with resolve takes appropriate action to ensure it won't happen again.

I've said this before about offshoots – former TWI-leaders have no business starting their own thing soon after leaving that insanity/corruption. I don't know how long a time span to specify – but IMHO their logic is flawed if they think they're qualified to lead folks to anything other than confusion and heartache.

Edited December 11, 2007 by T-Bone

[now I see]

john lynn's vociferous and persistent endorsement and promotion of the momentus training was a major "sticking point" with the other 4 members of the founding BOD of CES. none of the other 4 founding BOD members has ever taken the momentus training! and, the resignations from the BOD of CES of each of those 4 people, shortly after CES was founded by them with john lynn, all involved strong opposition to john l.'s continued "high profile" endorsement and promotion of momentus during his travels throughout and among the rapidly growing numbers of ex-twi fellowships and groups across the usa. another major "point of disagreement" for each of those 4 individuals was john l's "insistence" on adding john s., and mark graeser to the CES BOD!.......opposition to this was particularly strong regarding the foreseen influence of mrs. graeser

upon CES if mark was added to the BOD. none of those other founding CES BOD members were ever involved with CES again, after their resignations.

The above quote indicates John L was forewarned long ago of going ahead with momentus and the liason with the graes*rs, it cost him his first BOD.  

And just look at the mess that he's in now, and how many that have been hurt,including own wife Elizabeth.

[Ham]

"cost him his first bod" might be an understatement of sorts. It sounds like he drove them off with the "greatness" of momentus..

[Bumpy]

['ve said this before about offshoots – former TWI-leaders have no business starting their own thing soon after leaving that insanity/corruption. I don't know how long a time span to specify – but IMHO their logic is flawed if they think they're qualified to lead folks to anything other than confusion and heartache.

"Their logic is not flawed". The whole cult setup is simple, and starts out as a business plan based on "product", numbers, and revenue with a few additions, run as a business and managed as one.

Why do you think most top corporate contracts always have a non-competitive clause in case of employment separation?

The problem is, the God Business by nature is a slippery one. Ask the lawyers for the Catholic church on their way to the bank!

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Hello again to all you greasespotters participating in the wrap-up of this thread! thanks again for all your responses to what has been posted here for the last 2 and a 1/2 months! your patience and input has been wonderful, and i heartily thank you all for both! tonight, the final 2 questions of the original 7 i asked on 10/01/07:

#6)-----who is currently on your board of directors? your prophetic council?

Board of Directors

Mark Graeser

John Schoenheit

Dan Gallagher

Karen Theisen

Tom Resner

Gary Theisen

a short blurb on each of the above current members of the STF BOD can be found at their main website. as posted here previously, the prophetic council was disbanded a year ago, and, as of today, is no more!

#7)-----do you foresee a cooperative relationship between ces/stf and the graeser's and the resner's in the near future? if yes, on what grounds? if no, why not?

From what i was told by these men, and what has been posted here on this thread, it is obvious that, since the graeser's are continuing to press their various lawsuits against john lynn, jeff blackburn and dan gallagher, they have no intention of seeking a cooperative relationship with STF. from what has been told me by the 3 men i have personally spoken with, and whom i have quoted (by permnission from them), on this thread, tom resner is firmly and ideologically aligned with the graeser's, and also has no intention of pursuing a rapprochement with STF, nor a cooperative relationship with their ministry. there is an annual BOD meeting again this january, 2008. elections to the board will again be held, which will determine the BOD membership for the coming year. i suppose that, anyone interested in knowing the results of that election will be able to visit the STF website, and find out the results for themselves. imho, based on the communication i have had with john l., john s., and dan gallagher, and, the graeser's insistence upon allowing their lawsuits to run their courses through the indiana court system, there will be no future cooperative relationship between them. there will probably be some kind of "new offshoot" of twi for the hungry christian community to enjoy some time in the future. oh what joy this must bring to god, and his son jesus christ!..........i, for one, doubt that i'll ever be involved with STF or any other twi offshoot during my remaining years on this beautiful planet earth!...........sure wish jesus christ would come back soon to "rightly divide" all the mess vic, twi and the offshoots have made of their various "ministries"!! and the mess they've all made in the lives of all too many who have chosen to support and/or follow any of them!!.........what a truly wonderful day that will be!

until then, thanks to pawtucket for keeping this little old cafe open, and for keeping the menu fresh, interesting, and enjoyable! thanks again to all who have taken the time to read this thread, and to those who have posted their thoughts on it!........i am no longer responsible to report objectively to you all what the answers

to my questions are!........my time as "secretary" for STF is now officially finished!.........for any interested, i'll be posting my own thoughts and opinions about "all of this" here at the greasespot cafe........just as i promised jalvis i would do when he first called me and asked me to "let him know what i think".....almost one year ago!.........i'll be happy to answer whatever questions you may have, any time here at the spot.........i plan on sticking around this place for a good while......i've really come to enjoy this place...........but more importantly..........i've really come to know and appreciate the folks who hang out here..........love to you all, and.....................from the depths of my heart to your's........................PEACE!

Edited December 13, 2007 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

[Tom Strange]

thank you brother... I didn't get around to making 'the call' today but I plan to tomorrow... I'll let you know how it goes.

[now I see]

DWBH, Thank you for your longsuffering reportage of just the facts, I'm sure it took  a lot of restraint to post these last Q & A posts without personal commentary.

It's all so sad really.

So that is how they started with the existing BOD and the prophetic council.  And they have done little to improve upon the mess they created, they're waiting for the pending annual BOD meeting in January and the impending court cases....

And for what? For a little bit of money and a shortsighted retread ministry... There's more to life than a little money, you know... Don't they know that?.... And here they are, and it's a beautiful day....Well, I just don't understand it.

[Tzaia]

Tzaia says,

This is likely Mark Graeser's side and story. However, did you actually read the bylaws to verify whether this is true or not true? Why would CES take a vote at all if this is true? And my understanding is that CES removed him as president of the board and not entirely from the board. There really has to be accountability for any church or corporation and their officers.

In Indiana NPO's Board and Officers are distinct entities. You can have a board and officers where only the president need be a board member. There is some accountability, but when the only real shareholders are the board members, it's hard.

Does anyone have a copy of the actual CES corporate bylaws that they can post here?

No, but I'm sure they would offer them

Sorry I'm so late responding. This has been my first visit back since I got back from a trip to the Middle East.

[Tzaia]

"PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANIFESTATION OF PROPHECY". he freely admitted that "mistakes have been made" in the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of their doctrine, and the practice of personal prophecy by some at the BOD level of STF. he feels the mistakes in practice were the result of a normal learining curve in the proper use of this manifestation, among both the leadership of STF, and the general membership. he likened it to the process of normal human growth and development in areas like learning to walk, talk, read, spell, etc., mistakes are part of the normal growth and learning process, and, though painful at times, are usually "unavoidable" when learning anything "new"........he did not come across as flippant to me, about mistakes made, nor did he seek to avoid discussion of specific mistakes, or necessary corrections.

I can guarantee you that no one was saying at the time something along the lines that "wow, all of us are really new at this and perhaps we'd better take it easy until we get better at it." No one felt there was a learning curve when it was used to make decisions.

I'm sorry, but that's an unbelievable amount of backpedaling.

They TRULY believed this gave them a 'one up' on other Christian organizations.

[Tom Strange]

Nice to see you again Tzaia... glad you made it back safely!

As you can see, we've made progress... but not really...

[Tzaia]

Props to Dan. He seems to be the only one who has really taken this to heart and has an earnest desire to set things straight publicly and recognizes their “moral and spiritual responsibility” to do so.

It's easy to say that when you 'can't'.

[now I see]

Tzaia,

They all sound obtusely arrogant and pridefull, with possibly the exception of Dan G, and all enamored with their own self righteousness.  It surprises me it is so 'in your face'.

I guess I've forgotten how bad the arrogance of of TWI was.  

How is it that there's such silence and a lack of current CES participants posting here, do you stay in touch with anyone in Ces?  Are they all ignorant to what's going on or are they circling the wagons and not commenting to others about their leadership and practices?  I don't get it.

[Tzaia]

Nice to see you again Tzaia... glad you made it back safely!

As you can see, we've made progress... but not really...

I love the Middle East. This was my first trip to Egypt and my third to Israel.

'We' aren't going to make any real progress when it comes to this issue. My understanding from my last conversation with MG was that they were undergoing mediation. Mediation is a fancy word for coming to an agreement no one is really happy with.

I'm not sure what's involved with the lawsuit. I guess I could ask MG to email me a copy of the suit as they become public record once they are filed. Of course anyone is welcome to pick them up at doxpop.com for the bargain price of $25

I can't get the exact links to post, but you can do a search by state.

It is interesting to note that only DG and JB are named in the suits.

[now I see]

I was under the impression that JAL and JS were being sued too or maybe the entity of CES?

Edited December 14, 2007 by but now I see

[Tzaia]

Tzaia,

They all sound obtusely arrogant and pridefull, with possibly the exception of Dan G, and all enamored with their own self righteousness. It surprises me it is so 'in your face'.

I guess I've forgotten how bad the arrogance of of TWI was.

Dan just knows how to keep his arrogance under wraps. I'm sorry, but I found him to be the least transparent of the bunch, but he's masterful at making you think he's transparent.

How is it that there's such silence and a lack of current CES participants posting here, do you stay in touch with anyone in Ces? Are they all ignorant to what's going on or are they circling the wagons and not commenting to others about their leadership and practices? I don't get it.

Many who are 'active' members of CES work in the home office or attends their fellowships here locally (which I haven't since Momentus). STF was in the process of instituting a strict internet policy the last time I was there and I would imagine that pretty much everyone has been told to stay away from public forums. Other than this last thing, there was never any reason to engage people here except to get them to read TorT and BU and hook up with STF.

- My experience tells me they solicit input and feedback from people, but rarely act on it.

- I have to believe that I'm not the only person who feels that my time and input was a waste of time.

- There have been comments here about a plan.

- There was no plan before Dan arrived in 2004. Absolutely everything was seat of the pants.

I have no desire or need to talk to anyone there. I gave 10 years of my time and the way I was treated was uncalled for. Mark has called me a couple of times and we've talked briefly. He wanted me to write a letter, which I did, stating my experience working there. I experienced one person's attempt to bully me. The rest of them used PP as a battering ram against individuals, including me. I didn't have any use for PP then, and I haven't changed my mind. I had no idea what was going on with JAL and his wife other than they were divorced and that trouble had started very early in the marriage. The whole thing was not very healthy. I was of the opinion that all of them meddled in each other's personal lives way too much and not above using confidential information as a weapon to hurt and discredit.

Will they have an epiphany? No. The need to be special and set apart is so ingrained in all of them that, IMO, it is the supreme goal.

I'm a big believer in what goes around comes around and I am not the least bit surprised about these developments. I 'prophesied' to MG about them when I left in early 2005.

As I'm approaching the end of year 2 of my disengagement from the organization, I see many of the same behaviors and attitudes that I experienced when I was involved with TWI. It took me nearly 20 years to get off my high horse and see there is some benefit to 'orthodox' religion (one being no need to emphasize their 'rightness') and while I will probably never fully embrace some orthodox beliefs, I certainly don't disdain orthodox Christians like I did during my involvement with TWI and STF.

I was under the impression that JAL and JS were being sued too or maybe the entity of CES?

No. I might spring for the suits, but I'm going to ask MG first.

[now I see]

STF was in the process of instituting a strict internet policy the last time I was there and I would imagine that pretty much everyone has been told to stay away from public forums. Other than this last thing, there was never any reason to engage people here except to get them to read TorT and BU and hook up with STF.

- My experience tells me they solicit input and feedback from people, but rarely act on it.

- I have to believe that I'm not the only person who feels that my time and input was a waste of time.

- There have been comments here about a plan.

- There was no plan before Dan arrived in 2004. Absolutely everything was seat of the pants.

Sounds like a mirror image of how TWI reacted to POP, concealing the problem, and trying to lockdown any communication among the people about it.

Very Vp-ish in flying by the seat of the pants, very autocratic, and also in soliciting feedback, but not really intending to do anything about it.

A mirror image of administration a la TWI, has nothing to do with God and Christ, or His people, has a lot to do with administering a corporation.

[Tzaia]

Sounds like a mirror image of how TWI reacted to POP, concealing the problem, and trying to lockdown any communication among the people about it.

That's probably the case, or at the very least waiting until a good spin can be put on it.

Very Vp-ish in flying by the seat of the pants, very autocratic, and also in soliciting feedback, but not really intending to do anything about it.

I don't know if they intended to, but what I saw was the formation of all these committees that spent a lot of time discussing things, but ultimately not having any true input.

A mirror image of administration a la TWI, has nothing to do with God and Christ, or His people, has a lot to do with administering a corporation.

It IS a corporation, a legal entity that has to satisfy certain legal requirements. There was a LOT of ignoring those things and they need a 'business' side to deal with that. The problem arises when trying to be pastoral in the process. My opinion was that the board had no business involving themselves in the day to day stuff and to separate the operations of the board and officers from the running of the ministry.

Didn't VPW say you can't go any further than what you know?

[now I see]

There's something that ain't right with MG to take the power struggle going on at CES to the courts, in my opinion.

Why not just walk away and do something productive with your life?

I think they're all screwed up, IMO...