The entire concept of a who is who in the ministry is wrong in my opinion.
When John first began CES and was traveling around dismissing the way and recruiting the falling leaves he said and I quote we are the body of Christ AND "no one is dandruf" it comforted many who felt lost and wanted to feel needed and a part of something again..
so we learned no one is "bad or lesser" so far that is a feel good statement YET have they learned no one is also GREATER than another in the body of Christ?
when i read about the "gifts" I hear gift GIFT in other words to say somone (God) gave them to me free of charge to use as i needed them.
it doesnt say now seek and search for them, beg for them, advise or to "practice them" or to even NEED them to function wholly in the body of christ.
i think theses gifts are very common and not a big deal and they certainly in my mind do not deserve any adoration, or worship other than any other gift or blessing God gives us.
DAN GALLAGHER-------of the 3 men i spoke with, dan seemed the most eager to publicly address any and all "issues or past mistakes" of CES/STFI. he feels strongly that, STF has a "moral and spiritual responsibility" to do so. he is frustrated that the current lawsuit against him by the graeser's constrains him from being able to handle many of the "specific issues" he feels need to be addressed now. i take dan at his word. and, i too am frustrated by the selfishness (imho) of the graeser's insistence upon pursuing this foolish lawsuit, instead of allowing STF to deal with the many isssues raised by the various CES/STFI practices promoted and in use, while the graeser's and their supporters were "running the show". i believe dan could be and would be doing alot more publicly, were it not for the lawsuit. again, that's just my opinion after talking with dan.
Props to Dan. He seems to be the only one who has really taken this to heart and has an earnest desire to set things straight publicly and recognizes their “moral and spiritual responsibility” to do so.
JOHN LYNN-----of the 3 men i spoke with, john l. seems the most retiscent at publicly addressing the "past mistakes" made by CES/STFI. imho, that could be due to the fact that, there are so many "issues" involving john l.'s past with CES/STFI splattered across cyberspace over the last ten years, that, it is just too overwhelming right now for him to handle them all publicly
I suppose living your life so that you serve as a good example and that the ministry be not blamed has caught up with him.
john lynn
he does not believe he is responsible to respond to anyone who refuses to use their real name when communicating with him.
What john wants is a one-sided conversation where he gets to say what he wants, but does not have to answer to anyone. He does not take well to questions and responds even worse to criticism.
It is okay for him to post letters all over the internet and for him to authorize and even ask others to post information for him, but it is not okay to question those things he makes public.
john lynn
First, I think you will agree that there was nowhere else on earth that you, I, et al, could have heard the Word we did in TWI. In PFAL, we were in the right place at the right time. The enemy saw the theretofore unparalleled conjunction of biblical truth (TWI was by far the most significant unitarian, dispensational movement we know of since the 1st century church) and young, capable, energetic, and committed men and women like you and me, and he used every means to destroy TWI and its people."
Amazing! His god does not have much power or ability. He’s never heard of all the men vee pee stole that stuff from? It is very sad (and pathetic) that he has such high regard for all the errors taught in TWI and that he limits his god to that evil, destructive organization.
It’s all the devil’s fault. I get it. Blame the devil and you don’t have to take responsibility for your actions. Where was his god when all this was going on? Those problems couldn’t have come because they were so far away from god, could it?
One observation.. jl acted rather quickly. So fast, a lot of the leaves didn't even hit the ground..
I wonder how much of a real "favor" he did for them. Maybe as individuals.. but to provide another organizational comfort zone.. I dunno.
When I left der vey, I didn't seek out anybody to help me with "exit counselling" or anything.. just found that the world wasn't such a bad place. I did look a year or so prior to leaving. Sure, there's evil here, but it was in the old organization as well.
Interesting to see some people come here.. and it's almost like they've woken up from a coma, and it's still like "another day at the way"..
it's almost like they've left another "way ministry".
Interesting to see some people come here.. and it's almost like they've woken up from a coma, and it's still like "another day at the way"..
it's almost like they've left another "way ministry".
Yep. :( And hurt and left with a lot of questions, again.
john lynn
I believe we are without guile.
Furthermore, we long ago realized the privilege that was ours to hear the Word as it hasn't been taught since the first century, and we have not taken lightly our responsibility to steward it, build upon it, and make it known. We also saw what happened in TWI and are committed not to repeat any of the errors thereof.
They have repeated almost all of the errors thereof… including failure to accept responsibility for the lives they have harmed.
It is disgusting and insulting that he continues to claim to have heard “the Word as it hasn't been taught since the first century”
Our Father has been faithful to help us touch the hearts of thousands of people around the world--and that number is growing exponentially.
It’s all about the numbers (and their money), isn’t it? Not about the heart, the fruit, God or the PEOPLE…. Sounds exactly like TWI to me. Anyone with a good marketing plan and the proper twisting of scriptures to spiritually blackmail people can amass numbers.
The Catholic religion, the Mormon religion, the JW’s all have huge numbers, too. Heck, Hitler had huge numbers. Al Quada has touched the hearts of thousands of people around the world – that does not make them right nor does it make them Godly!
john lynn
During the past 20 years, I have heard countless excuses from ex-Way folks as to why they want no part of another "organization," etc. I can understand their pain, but if I am to take the Word seriously, none hold water, biblically speaking, nor will they at the Bema.
Excuses?? Excuses?? How can one respect someone who does not take our concerns seriously? How can anyone take that person seriously?
How do you feel you will fare at the Bema, john? Do you really believe there will even be a Bema? You certainly don’t live like it. Do you sleep well at night knowing what you’ve said and done to God’s kids?
#4)--- how will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? in your opinion, have you, or, do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors , or evangelists?
I purposely left out "apostles", from the above list,
. . again, imho, anyone so designating himself has a major delusional ego-trip problem, so i purposely left this "gift ministry" out of my question in my desire to keep it as objective as possible.
Well, given john lynn’s reverence for vee pee and what his little group teaches, that was probably very wise.
as i've posted here before, john s. firmly believes that STF's current doctrine regarding prophets is "biblically accurate", as presented in their book, "PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANIFESTATION OF PROPHECY". therefore, as posted previously, STF will continue to teach their current "right doctrine" concerning the "gift ministry" of a prophet, until, or unless, they discover any "new light" in their understanding of this "gift ministry" via their "research and study" of "the scripture".
What about when “real life” experiences prove out that possibly, just possibly, their “scholarly attitude” may be wrong? That their research just might be so friggin’ off the mark?
i assume that john l. pretty much still holds to the understanding of the functions of these "gift ministries" as twi taught them.
You know, it just really sounds like john wishes he was still in TWI, but only if he can be top dog and get the name recognition he gets with his current organization. Sounds like it is all about ego and reverence for vee pee with john l.
i apologize that i have no further info to post concerning answers to question #4, from the communications i have had with john s., dan g., and john l.. i guess those other "gift ministries" got lost in our discussions about prophets and prophecy!
Nothing to apologize for at all, DWBH! :) You’ve gotten answers when no one else has been able to. Thank YOU for taking the time to get them and share them with us. I am certain that there are many folks taking note of these answers (and attitudes) of those they have been supporting.
I suspect that there isn’t really anything to share about the other “gift ministries” since they are boring compared to that of ‘prophet’. They require some sort of hands on, caring for people and taking care of their hearts. A prophet can just declare something – anything – and say it’s from God and be done with it. There is no glory in actually caring for the flock. No glory in quietly and privately spending time with someone.
The enemy saw the theretofore unparalleled conjunction of biblical truth (TWI was by far the most significant unitarian, dispensational movement we know of since the 1st century church)
concerning the "gift ministry" of a prophet, until, or unless, they discover any "new light" in their understanding of this "gift ministry" via their "research and study" of "the scripture".
I'm just waiting for the screeching of brakes and the metalic boom of impact.....I really, really, hope they are not calling themselves "Apostles" (do I hear a choir of angels in the background singing??) because they believe they've discovered new light regarding prophecy and Prophets? I know they've exhibited the ego to do this, I just hope they haven't sunk that low to self glorify eachother that way...
I also find it interesting that neither John L or John S are stating that there's anything further they need to change about their prophecy doctrine, whereas Dan is expressing his frustration in not being able to completely examine the problems. Hmmm.
I was waiting for the right build-up to get to this important moment! It may not have anything to do with "liars poker" or prophesy, but I thought it might just be time to start thinking about "passing the Sunday plate"!
and it has taken me the rest of my life to shake off the effects of being involved.
I can NOT imagine having been exposed to all that it was and AND thinking and knowing it is a good money source of income ready and waiting for the taking.
but for the grace of God really.
yet nearly everyday i wonder what my life would have been if i had not had this hunger to know... what ever the heck this trip has been.
today is NOT a good day and I think it would have been better to have never been exposed(was it easy for you to shake?) but I will never ever know unless the Lord does return.
I was waiting for the right build-up to get to this important moment! It may not have anything to do with "liars poker" or prophesy, but I thought it might just be time to start thinking about "passing the Sunday plate"!
Hamm, I think you should be the first to throw in a few nuts...and Belle, a sweet little prayer to bless the offering would be a nice gesture!
(and don't forget to read the f i n e print, of but now I see!)
I clicked on the link to "show all partners"... there's only six! or six that are willing to let their names be used... so then I clicked on "contact us", filled in all of my "required" information and sent them an email asking about all of this "personal prophesy stuff" and the lawsuits, etc.
I wonder if they'll even answer...
I said this before and I'll say it again:
All CES/STF has done is take the kool-aid stand that they built in TWI and moved it over to the next block...
...and they likely will move it again to another block with another name... hmmm, ever wonder why they really changed their name from CES to STF in the first place?
Hi there all you greasespotters!......only 15 days left until christmas!........hope all your shopping, shipping, wrapping, baking, craftmaking, and card-sending is going well!..........thanks again for all your posts to this thread..........and for taking the time to read them all!..........please continue reading and posting, as this thread winds it's way to closure!........
#5)---do you still publicly or privately promote the momentus "training" to your followers? if yes, why? if no, why not?
The momentus "training" is an outgrowth of lifespring, a church that was formed under the auspices of something called meshiach ministries, i think. i beiieve it started as an "EST-style" human resources corporate training program that had some moderate "success" during the early 1980's. i don't know anything about it firsthand, since i never took it, nor do i ever intend to! this in spite of numerous attempts by various ex-way corps grads in the late 80's to get me to participate in the training sessions as then offered by one dan tochini (sp?), one of the founders of meshiach ministries and, for a long time, the chief "trainer" of momentus. there is a thread entitled, "ces and momentous" further down the list of threads in this "ces in crisis" forum, which provides firsthand accounts from folks here who participated in momentus. perhaps, that will provide you with more info than this thread will, regarding momentus.
The initial promotion of momentus to the ex-way community was begun by dan st---emer, a 6th corps grad, who was living in california during 1987-88,.....became involved with dan tochini, took the momentus training, and then promoted it to the then rapidly growing exodus of of way corps folks from twi........dan s. is the one who introduced tochini and momentus to john l., john s., graeser's, and many other former, prominent "leaders" from twi......the CES "servant/leadership" reported many good things by word of mouth throughout the growing numbers of ex-way people......john lynn, along with dan s., became a major promoter of momentus, as did CES and other early offshoots of twi, and some other "prominent" ex-wayfers......when CES was founded, in the spring of 1987, neither john s., nor the graeser's were members of the founding BOD. john lynn was, along with 4 other former twi "leaders". john lynn's vociferous and persistent endorsement and promotion of the momentus training was a major "sticking point" with the other 4 members of the founding BOD of CES. none of the other 4 founding BOD members has ever taken the momentus training! and, the resignations from the BOD of CES of each of those 4 people, shortly after CES was founded by them with john lynn, all involved strong opposition to john l.'s continued "high profile" endorsement and promotion of momentus during his travels throughout and among the rapidly growing numbers of ex-twi fellowships and groups across the usa. another major "point of disagreement" for each of those 4 individuals was john l's "insistence" on adding john s., and mark graeser to the CES BOD!.......opposition to this was particularly strong regarding the foreseen influence of mrs. graeser
upon CES if mark was added to the BOD. none of those other founding CES BOD members were ever involved with CES again, after their resignations.
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------john told me the following, "we, as a ministry, do not promote momentus to our followers any more. we stopped promoting momentus to CES/STFI followers about 5 years ago." ....... the initial relationship between CES/STFI was intended to be symbiotic. that is, there was mutual promotion of each by the other. but, this relationship waned in the late 90's. apparently, there were some "doctrinal differences and issues" which arose between the two ministries, which widened the gap developing between them. by the time the doctrinal ice had formed in the early 2000's, john s., stated that, CES/STFI "leadership began to notice a decided lack of fruit" produced for CES/STFI followers who were taking the momentus "training", and, "complaints" about momentus began to be voiced and heard. john s. said that, the " tremendously positive results" momentus had on himself, john l., the graeser's, and other CES/STFI principals, were so "powerful" for them personally, that, perhaps, their vision regarding continued promotion and involvement with momentus "may have been somewhat clouded". he said they were all somewhat "surpised and disappointed" to hear the "negatives", and that, such "tremendous results" as they had individually enjoyed were no longer occurring for CES/STFI followers, who were taking the momentus training. also, "doctrinal differences" now seemed to be "unresolveable", and, as CES/STFI wanted to become a more "full service" ministry, they began looking for alternative "self-improvement" type of activities to recommend to their supporters. john s. rattled off a quick list of 4 or 5, which i can't recall right now other than 2..... "lifeshapers", and "enneagram". but, he also mentioned that current STF "servant/leadership" itself was developing expertise in counselling services, mentioning that karen theisen has recently completed her work on a master's degree in counselling from a college in michigan. john s. stated that, he does not promote momentus privately to any STF followers, nor does STF plan to do so publicly in the future.
DAN GALLAGHER-------dan also stated that, STF, "as a ministtry, does not publicly promote momentus, nor have we during the last 5 years or so. i also do not promote momentus privately to any of our STF supporters.". he said that there were just too many "problems" coming up with CES/STFI involvement with momentus. apparently, there has been some kind of split between tochini, and someone named lepazzi(sp?) and another former momentus "trainer". but, regardless, dan g. seemed to agree with me when i voiced my opinion to him that, no one in the momentus trainings is properly or formally trained to deal with the various profound psycho-emotional issues which the momentus "training" seems to bring to the surface in the lives of many participants. he confirmed that "lifeshapers" is an alternative to momentus, which is some kind of personal development type of program that STF is currently "informing" some of its followers about, but did not mention any others. he also brought up karen theisen's recent completion of her master's degree in counselling, and said he is looking forward to the improved input she can provide to STF in its desire to offer better self-development and counselling services to STF followers who "need or want them".
JOHN LYNN-------john l. and i did not discuss much about momentus during our recent conversations, or e-mail exchanges. he did state that, he no longer publicly promotes momentus to STF supporters. from what i gathered from my conversations with dan and john s., he may "on occasion" with "specific individuals" suggest participation in the momentus training on a "private, one-on-one basis". john l. himself, however, did not state anything like that to me in any of our conversations, but i did not ask him that question when we talked recently. both john s., and dan g. sort of hinted to me, that if this is indeed factual, it may be "a topic of discussion" between them and john l. in the future. remember, john l. currently is not a member of the STF BOD, nor does he hold any paid, "official" position with STF. he is a "private citizen".
thanks again to all you greasespotters who are taking your time to read this thread. i encourage you to continue to provide your considered and valuable input to this thread!...........................peace.
All CES/STF has done is take the kool-aid stand that they built in TWI and moved it over to the next block...
...and they likely will move it again to another block with another name... hmmm, ever wonder why they really changed their name from CES to STF in the first place?
I think you weren't supposed to push on the button that said show all partners ...
But as to the kool-aid stand, they were just lowly employees with twi, they have real strong incentive to push their product and retain their customers now that they get to keep all the money.
Ah...The subject of Momentus finally arises...what were these guys thinking?...punching a pillow and screaming "mommy, mommy" is not my idea of spiritual growth..."hold harmless clause"?...does this mean that after the Momentus folks send someone to Bellview, they shrug their shoulders and say..."sorry pal, it's not my problem"???
...and Lynn and company fell for this! What does that tell you?
JOHN LYNN-------john l. and i did not discuss much about momentus during our recent conversations, or e-mail exchanges. he did state that, he no longer publicly promotes momentus to STF supporters. from what i gathered from my conversations with dan and john s., he may "on occasion" with "specific individuals" suggest participation in the momentus training on a "private, one-on-one basis". john l. himself, however, did not state anything like that to me in any of our conversations, but i did not ask him that question when we talked recently. both john s., and dan g. sort of hinted to me, that if this is indeed factual, it may be "a topic of discussion" between them and john l. in the future. remember, john l. currently is not a member of the STF BOD, nor does he hold any paid, "official" position with STF. he is a "private citizen".
Yes.......this is indeed factual
As of August 2006, mr. lynn was phoning around for momentus candidates........a friend of mine, told me this. On three separate instances, jal tried convincing my friend to take momentus.
And, I adviced my friend to investigate it further before taking it. He never did.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
pond
The entire concept of a who is who in the ministry is wrong in my opinion.
When John first began CES and was traveling around dismissing the way and recruiting the falling leaves he said and I quote we are the body of Christ AND "no one is dandruf" it comforted many who felt lost and wanted to feel needed and a part of something again..
so we learned no one is "bad or lesser" so far that is a feel good statement YET have they learned no one is also GREATER than another in the body of Christ?
when i read about the "gifts" I hear gift GIFT in other words to say somone (God) gave them to me free of charge to use as i needed them.
it doesnt say now seek and search for them, beg for them, advise or to "practice them" or to even NEED them to function wholly in the body of christ.
i think theses gifts are very common and not a big deal and they certainly in my mind do not deserve any adoration, or worship other than any other gift or blessing God gives us.
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Belle
I suppose living your life so that you serve as a good example and that the ministry be not blamed has caught up with him.
john lynn
What john wants is a one-sided conversation where he gets to say what he wants, but does not have to answer to anyone. He does not take well to questions and responds even worse to criticism.It is okay for him to post letters all over the internet and for him to authorize and even ask others to post information for him, but it is not okay to question those things he makes public.
john lynn
Amazing! His god does not have much power or ability. He’s never heard of all the men vee pee stole that stuff from? It is very sad (and pathetic) that he has such high regard for all the errors taught in TWI and that he limits his god to that evil, destructive organization.
It’s all the devil’s fault. I get it. Blame the devil and you don’t have to take responsibility for your actions. Where was his god when all this was going on? Those problems couldn’t have come because they were so far away from god, could it?
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Ham
One observation.. jl acted rather quickly. So fast, a lot of the leaves didn't even hit the ground..
I wonder how much of a real "favor" he did for them. Maybe as individuals.. but to provide another organizational comfort zone.. I dunno.
When I left der vey, I didn't seek out anybody to help me with "exit counselling" or anything.. just found that the world wasn't such a bad place. I did look a year or so prior to leaving. Sure, there's evil here, but it was in the old organization as well.
Interesting to see some people come here.. and it's almost like they've woken up from a coma, and it's still like "another day at the way"..
it's almost like they've left another "way ministry".
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Belle
Yep. :( And hurt and left with a lot of questions, again.
john lynn
They have repeated almost all of the errors thereof… including failure to accept responsibility for the lives they have harmed.It is disgusting and insulting that he continues to claim to have heard “the Word as it hasn't been taught since the first century”
It’s all about the numbers (and their money), isn’t it? Not about the heart, the fruit, God or the PEOPLE…. Sounds exactly like TWI to me. Anyone with a good marketing plan and the proper twisting of scriptures to spiritually blackmail people can amass numbers.
The Catholic religion, the Mormon religion, the JW’s all have huge numbers, too. Heck, Hitler had huge numbers. Al Quada has touched the hearts of thousands of people around the world – that does not make them right nor does it make them Godly!
john lynn
Excuses?? Excuses?? How can one respect someone who does not take our concerns seriously? How can anyone take that person seriously?
How do you feel you will fare at the Bema, john? Do you really believe there will even be a Bema? You certainly don’t live like it. Do you sleep well at night knowing what you’ve said and done to God’s kids?
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Belle
What about when “real life” experiences prove out that possibly, just possibly, their “scholarly attitude” may be wrong? That their research just might be so friggin’ off the mark?
You know, it just really sounds like john wishes he was still in TWI, but only if he can be top dog and get the name recognition he gets with his current organization. Sounds like it is all about ego and reverence for vee pee with john l.Nothing to apologize for at all, DWBH! :) You’ve gotten answers when no one else has been able to. Thank YOU for taking the time to get them and share them with us. I am certain that there are many folks taking note of these answers (and attitudes) of those they have been supporting.
I suspect that there isn’t really anything to share about the other “gift ministries” since they are boring compared to that of ‘prophet’. They require some sort of hands on, caring for people and taking care of their hearts. A prophet can just declare something – anything – and say it’s from God and be done with it. There is no glory in actually caring for the flock. No glory in quietly and privately spending time with someone.
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Ham
MOST SIGNIFICANT?
why can't people just be "ordinary"
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Ham
"MOST SIGNIFICANT"?
as far as "signs following those who believe".. the "movement" was an abject failure.. there was a LOT of talk, but few "results".
perhaps a success on an organizational level. A real money maker.. for some.
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now I see
I'm just waiting for the screeching of brakes and the metalic boom of impact.....I really, really, hope they are not calling themselves "Apostles" (do I hear a choir of angels in the background singing??) because they believe they've discovered new light regarding prophecy and Prophets? I know they've exhibited the ego to do this, I just hope they haven't sunk that low to self glorify eachother that way...
I also find it interesting that neither John L or John S are stating that there's anything further they need to change about their prophecy doctrine, whereas Dan is expressing his frustration in not being able to completely examine the problems. Hmmm.
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Bumpy
I was waiting for the right build-up to get to this important moment! It may not have anything to do with "liars poker" or prophesy, but I thought it might just be time to start thinking about "passing the Sunday plate"!
http://www.stfonline.org/partnership/index.html
Hamm, I think you should be the first to throw in a few nuts...and Belle, a sweet little prayer to bless the offering would be a nice gesture!
(and don't forget to read the f i n e print, of but now I see!)
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Ham
I suppose I could box up a few peanuts. Squirrels are probably starving there..
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now I see
Looks like their mailing address is in Indiana....
Better watch out, they're in the midst of squirrel hunting season!
http://bayoubill.com/squirrels/squirrelbehavior.html
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Ham
What a senseless way to get a meal. I mean.. it would take a dozen or so to fill a pot..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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pond
twi never paid my nut in life.
and it has taken me the rest of my life to shake off the effects of being involved.
I can NOT imagine having been exposed to all that it was and AND thinking and knowing it is a good money source of income ready and waiting for the taking.
but for the grace of God really.
yet nearly everyday i wonder what my life would have been if i had not had this hunger to know... what ever the heck this trip has been.
today is NOT a good day and I think it would have been better to have never been exposed(was it easy for you to shake?) but I will never ever know unless the Lord does return.
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pond
why are so many attracted then?
the word and nothing but the word lives !
now it is with a twist and a spin because we learned , really what did we learn?
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Tom Strange
I clicked on the link to "show all partners"... there's only six! or six that are willing to let their names be used... so then I clicked on "contact us", filled in all of my "required" information and sent them an email asking about all of this "personal prophesy stuff" and the lawsuits, etc.
I wonder if they'll even answer...
I said this before and I'll say it again:
All CES/STF has done is take the kool-aid stand that they built in TWI and moved it over to the next block...
...and they likely will move it again to another block with another name... hmmm, ever wonder why they really changed their name from CES to STF in the first place?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi there all you greasespotters!......only 15 days left until christmas!........hope all your shopping, shipping, wrapping, baking, craftmaking, and card-sending is going well!..........thanks again for all your posts to this thread..........and for taking the time to read them all!..........please continue reading and posting, as this thread winds it's way to closure!........
#5)---do you still publicly or privately promote the momentus "training" to your followers? if yes, why? if no, why not?
The momentus "training" is an outgrowth of lifespring, a church that was formed under the auspices of something called meshiach ministries, i think. i beiieve it started as an "EST-style" human resources corporate training program that had some moderate "success" during the early 1980's. i don't know anything about it firsthand, since i never took it, nor do i ever intend to! this in spite of numerous attempts by various ex-way corps grads in the late 80's to get me to participate in the training sessions as then offered by one dan tochini (sp?), one of the founders of meshiach ministries and, for a long time, the chief "trainer" of momentus. there is a thread entitled, "ces and momentous" further down the list of threads in this "ces in crisis" forum, which provides firsthand accounts from folks here who participated in momentus. perhaps, that will provide you with more info than this thread will, regarding momentus.
The initial promotion of momentus to the ex-way community was begun by dan st---emer, a 6th corps grad, who was living in california during 1987-88,.....became involved with dan tochini, took the momentus training, and then promoted it to the then rapidly growing exodus of of way corps folks from twi........dan s. is the one who introduced tochini and momentus to john l., john s., graeser's, and many other former, prominent "leaders" from twi......the CES "servant/leadership" reported many good things by word of mouth throughout the growing numbers of ex-way people......john lynn, along with dan s., became a major promoter of momentus, as did CES and other early offshoots of twi, and some other "prominent" ex-wayfers......when CES was founded, in the spring of 1987, neither john s., nor the graeser's were members of the founding BOD. john lynn was, along with 4 other former twi "leaders". john lynn's vociferous and persistent endorsement and promotion of the momentus training was a major "sticking point" with the other 4 members of the founding BOD of CES. none of the other 4 founding BOD members has ever taken the momentus training! and, the resignations from the BOD of CES of each of those 4 people, shortly after CES was founded by them with john lynn, all involved strong opposition to john l.'s continued "high profile" endorsement and promotion of momentus during his travels throughout and among the rapidly growing numbers of ex-twi fellowships and groups across the usa. another major "point of disagreement" for each of those 4 individuals was john l's "insistence" on adding john s., and mark graeser to the CES BOD!.......opposition to this was particularly strong regarding the foreseen influence of mrs. graeser
upon CES if mark was added to the BOD. none of those other founding CES BOD members were ever involved with CES again, after their resignations.
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------john told me the following, "we, as a ministry, do not promote momentus to our followers any more. we stopped promoting momentus to CES/STFI followers about 5 years ago." ....... the initial relationship between CES/STFI was intended to be symbiotic. that is, there was mutual promotion of each by the other. but, this relationship waned in the late 90's. apparently, there were some "doctrinal differences and issues" which arose between the two ministries, which widened the gap developing between them. by the time the doctrinal ice had formed in the early 2000's, john s., stated that, CES/STFI "leadership began to notice a decided lack of fruit" produced for CES/STFI followers who were taking the momentus "training", and, "complaints" about momentus began to be voiced and heard. john s. said that, the " tremendously positive results" momentus had on himself, john l., the graeser's, and other CES/STFI principals, were so "powerful" for them personally, that, perhaps, their vision regarding continued promotion and involvement with momentus "may have been somewhat clouded". he said they were all somewhat "surpised and disappointed" to hear the "negatives", and that, such "tremendous results" as they had individually enjoyed were no longer occurring for CES/STFI followers, who were taking the momentus training. also, "doctrinal differences" now seemed to be "unresolveable", and, as CES/STFI wanted to become a more "full service" ministry, they began looking for alternative "self-improvement" type of activities to recommend to their supporters. john s. rattled off a quick list of 4 or 5, which i can't recall right now other than 2..... "lifeshapers", and "enneagram". but, he also mentioned that current STF "servant/leadership" itself was developing expertise in counselling services, mentioning that karen theisen has recently completed her work on a master's degree in counselling from a college in michigan. john s. stated that, he does not promote momentus privately to any STF followers, nor does STF plan to do so publicly in the future.
DAN GALLAGHER-------dan also stated that, STF, "as a ministtry, does not publicly promote momentus, nor have we during the last 5 years or so. i also do not promote momentus privately to any of our STF supporters.". he said that there were just too many "problems" coming up with CES/STFI involvement with momentus. apparently, there has been some kind of split between tochini, and someone named lepazzi(sp?) and another former momentus "trainer". but, regardless, dan g. seemed to agree with me when i voiced my opinion to him that, no one in the momentus trainings is properly or formally trained to deal with the various profound psycho-emotional issues which the momentus "training" seems to bring to the surface in the lives of many participants. he confirmed that "lifeshapers" is an alternative to momentus, which is some kind of personal development type of program that STF is currently "informing" some of its followers about, but did not mention any others. he also brought up karen theisen's recent completion of her master's degree in counselling, and said he is looking forward to the improved input she can provide to STF in its desire to offer better self-development and counselling services to STF followers who "need or want them".
JOHN LYNN-------john l. and i did not discuss much about momentus during our recent conversations, or e-mail exchanges. he did state that, he no longer publicly promotes momentus to STF supporters. from what i gathered from my conversations with dan and john s., he may "on occasion" with "specific individuals" suggest participation in the momentus training on a "private, one-on-one basis". john l. himself, however, did not state anything like that to me in any of our conversations, but i did not ask him that question when we talked recently. both john s., and dan g. sort of hinted to me, that if this is indeed factual, it may be "a topic of discussion" between them and john l. in the future. remember, john l. currently is not a member of the STF BOD, nor does he hold any paid, "official" position with STF. he is a "private citizen".
thanks again to all you greasespotters who are taking your time to read this thread. i encourage you to continue to provide your considered and valuable input to this thread!...........................peace.
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rhino
I think you weren't supposed to push on the button that said show all partners ...
But as to the kool-aid stand, they were just lowly employees with twi, they have real strong incentive to push their product and retain their customers now that they get to keep all the money.
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Ham
maybe not king.. maybe he's more like a Queen Dowager..
Well, before sonny boy MG split the scene..
but they no longer publically endorse or recommend momentus. Just for the special, the few jl thinks might need it..
I thought personal prophecy and momentus got married in CES..
now they've reduced her status to that of 'concubine".
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ah...The subject of Momentus finally arises...what were these guys thinking?...punching a pillow and screaming "mommy, mommy" is not my idea of spiritual growth..."hold harmless clause"?...does this mean that after the Momentus folks send someone to Bellview, they shrug their shoulders and say..."sorry pal, it's not my problem"???
...and Lynn and company fell for this! What does that tell you?
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Ham
not my idea of spending an otherwise enjoyable weekend, either..
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skyrider
Yes.......this is indeed factual
As of August 2006, mr. lynn was phoning around for momentus candidates........a friend of mine, told me this. On three separate instances, jal tried convincing my friend to take momentus.
And, I adviced my friend to investigate it further before taking it. He never did.
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Ham
Hmm. Maybe this reduces the "status" of momentus even further..
like it's a harlot.. needs someone to try to chase down a few customers..
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Ham
Maybe that's what the "hold harmless" thingy is really about.. no recourse for picking up a few "harmless" germs..
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Ham
What it really makes me ask.. "what did it REALLY do to them?"
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