John L - it appears to me that you have not really grown or advanced even one little bit. The concept that God would limit Himself to ONE "package," ONE "ministry," ONE MOG is proof of how little you truly know and how selflessly you serve - yourself.
You wrote:
"On the practical side, DWBH, I sure hope you know me well enough to know that I would not be a part of anything that was in any way abusive, dishonest, clandestine, or in any way ungodly,"
Maybe the point is just how well he knows you... I remember some abusive times around you and your cronies.
"During the past 20 years, I have heard countless excuses from ex-Way folks as to why they want no part of another "organization," etc. I can understand their pain, but if I am to take the Word seriously, none hold water, biblically speaking, nor will they at the Bema. You know what the Word says about how the Body is to function...."
Who made you the authority on what holds water? You apparently thought that personal prophecy was holding water to the point that you allowed it to affect your marriage.
where to start... where to start... (while I clearly understand that these responses from DWBH 'on their behalf')
I apologize for the length.
JOHN SCHOENHEIT:
<snip> ...STF continues to enjoy "tremendous growth" around the world, and that he believes god will continue to bless their ministry and its supporters, as they remain "faithful to the word". as far as what they've done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice, the following specifics were discussed........the "prophetic council" was was disbanded in january, 2007, and there has been no such council in operation at STF throughout calendar year 2007.
<snip> ...he also stated that this council's "function got out of hand", and was "overly relied upon" because of the previous "prophetic track record" of accuracy of some of its members. it was, therefore, disbanded in january, 2007. there are no plans to re-institute a "prophetic council" at this time. john also stated that, there has been a purposeful "de-emphasis" on the practice of "personal prophecy" by STF, throughout its "events and fellowships", in order to avoid wrong practice and repetition of "any mistakes" made in the use of this manifestation. what the future role of "personal prophecy" in STF, may be is not certain. but, STF will continue to offer its publication on prophecy, and will continue to teach the "right doctrine" contained therein. he also stated that, he does not believe that the greasespot cafe is an appropriate forum for STF to publicly address any previous CES/STFI "problems or mistakes". he feels that STF, through its various "newsletters, magazine and websites", has enough resources of its own to communicate whatever the BOD decides is necessary and proper, whenever it decides to do so.
JS: the first part of your response to question 3 (not quoted here) is nothing more than a cowardly excuse. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm merely stating the obvious. You have no problem using all of STF's communication resources to generate "tremendous growth"... why wouldn't you use those same resources to generate TREMENDOUS HONESTY? I'll answer for you: BECAUSE IF YOU (&STF) WERE HONEST IN YOUR COMMUNICATION TO YOUR FOLLOWERS THE MONEY WOULD STOP COMING IN.
Why don't you use STF's resources to communicate all of the information that's been posted here on GSC? Why not use STF's resources to communicate what is quoted above concerning the prophetic council? The only honest answer is because you don't want to.
OH, and JS... a few words of advice to you: you should quit deleting emails. They can probably be recovered anyway AND they could be ruled as evidence in the future. Courts have ruled that corporations have the responsibility to keep these records and (I think) have even been found to have 'destroyed evidence' when they did.
DAN GALLAGHER: So far, of the three protagonists, you come across as the most honest. I know that's not saying much given your present company... but I mean it as a compliment and look forward AS I'M SURE THE REMAINING FOLLOWERS OF STF DO to a day when you can "come clean" about all of this.
To JL: I have so much to say to you but I am convinced that you will not 'hear'. So I'm editing myself so as not to waste the time of the brethren but I will say this:
I don't have to have been at Hiroshima to know and understand the destruction that happened. I can tell perfectly from viewing the remnants in ashes. The same goes for being associated with anything with which you are involved.
TO JOHN S., DAN G., JOHN L. and MARK & KAREN ANNE G.:
How does it feel to base your decisions of how you will run your ministry, what you will communicate with your ministry, based upon whether or not it will generate cash?
The concept that God would limit Himself to ONE "package," ONE "ministry," ONE MOG is proof of how little you truly know and how selflessly you serve...
Unless you're a former German Cardinal aus Munchen of the Catholic Church currently enlisted in Rome as Pope Benedict XVI otherwise known as...
Thanks for your kind words DWBH earlier. I don't know who you are, but you're obviously an "old timer" who's perspective I think we all appreciate.
Well, that last question was a doozy and the answers were interesting.
John S - buy our books.
I don't know Dan so I won't comment.
John L. - The golden boy who's daddy's $$$$ bought him high status in VP's eyes and in TWI. The man who's probably never had a "real" job, pretty much had things handed to him. I never thought he was particularly "spiritual," no more than anyone else.
What I find sad is, for him to blithely still insist that they have the "best" package going, even after their package destroyed his marriage, almost toppled their ministry, resulting in and leading to lawsuits - well, I think he's delusional. Denial is a river in Egypt.
I see there is still blatent worship of "our father in the Word's" teachings, its just been repackaged, with some prophecy thrown in.
If he were serious (along with the other leaders), I mean really serious about teaching the Word to God's people, he'd go to school and get an education. The more I read of Church History, and other Bible perspectives, over the years it has become more and more apparent to me how uneducated TWI followers were in the "Biblical field." Being able to spout off verses and orientalisms does not make one a teacher or scholar. In fact, theologically, historically and in most other ways, we were downright ignorant, led by our "Father" VP who had a degree in preaching. Our little bit of "knowledge" made us downright dangerous to ourselves and those around us sometimes.
In fact, being stuck in PFAL mode is like repeating 2nd grade over, and over, and over. There is so much more out there God has to offer. Move on, move up. Yet, TWI offshoots insist they have the best, improved package - oh well.
And, if one were to decide to work within an organization again, I would think collectively that us ex-TWI'ers are not going to follow one man and his BOT.
I'd find a mainstream denominational church, with much input, psychological evaluations of their leadership, openess - i.e., a place where there are checks and balances, so no one man ever runs the show.
And, of course, there's the threat of last resort - the old "bema" card.
Anyone who tries to put fear into a child of God at meeting his Lord one day - well, its not Godly.
Being with Christ and being a new creation is the Christian's hope. For someone to use that to browbeat and put fear in one of God's children ("I wouldn't want to be you at the bema" - VPW and others), well, maybe a millstone should be tied around his neck.
Their package has wrought ruin - yet, they keep on pushing it.
I guess, no, they really haven't learned anything.
Grphs, uhg, I just vomited in my mouth, excuse me…
Sorry, DontWorry, I couldn’t hold back any longer, I wanted to wait till the end…but?
My sentiments exactly.
I have been preparing a proper response, but just had to add what I've thought about these responses so far.... IF this is how the "leaders" of this so called "ministry" really think, then, I'm saddened, disappointed and DISGUSTED beyond belief.
I can only hope the people who are still supporting these bozos take note.
And small movie stars as well! The question begs, should these orgs be banned and then canned...Mein Fuehrer?
No, but spading and neutering might be a real option here. The old large, tired, sad cult can then live out the rest of it's days in peace and contentment, just without adding to the organizational overpopulation problem..
Locked behind a closed door, his voice had become too loud, the other "animals" on the farm had grown weary of his denial, so they shut him away...for another rainy day!
"During the past 20 years, I have heard countless excuses from ex-Way folks as to why they want no part of another "organization,"
and they've simply supplied us with a half a dozen more good excuses..
Does he really think when he stands before the lord..
"well done, thou whoest bledest thy life out for da organization.."
"depart from me, ye workers of wickedness, who refusest to hearken to da personal prophecy from mah chosen one.. even though he was on the low end of the learning curve..after all, he was just making a few mistakes.."
it really sounds like even more "biblical denial".
Just use a verse or two.. how we oughter get along.. keep a running motion picture in one's mind where you're at the bema.. getting rewarded.. others being roughly interrogated as to why they didn't agree with you..
The reality is he is scolding DWBH and all of the rest of us extwi non-ces persons that we're operating outside of "what the Word says the Body is supossed to function."
The real truth is, he has no clue what that is supossed to be. What he thinks he knows is how it should be done, but the dynamic organic body of Christ, with Christ-not a man-as the head, which God set up, and where each joint supplieth, is far from what he advocates.
Here's an excerpt on this exact point from a previous poster from the CES Crisis forum:
"Interesting to see that at least something might be done in CES. I'm glad for that.. It's a man made ministry, so I really could care less whether the "ministry" stands or falls. Because God is still God. Jesus is still our Lord. And we still have life! And the true church will still stand. The word ministry in the Bible is the word for serving. Not a "Bible club" which to me is all TWI and CES and the majority of churches / ministries have become. Just because they know Jesus, even personally, doesn't mean they follow Him. And if they follow Him, they won't be following man or a man made ministry. The body of Christ is to be made up of active members following Christ (serving). And it ain't for serving Koolaid!....
When will people wake up. The harvest is great. It's time to be working. Not making our own man-made groups with men at the helm leading it (having influence over others) and trying to see how he can keep leading it. Let him who wishes to be greatest among you be your SERVANT. Jesus never taught that it's for us to be serving the leaders. It's the other way around! You want to lead, then get out there and work. That's how you lead. Whether or not people follow and drink your koolaid. And even if they are influenced by your work, your not their leader, Christ is. So if any man is trying to "lead" people, they aren't following Christ, they are following their man made visions. Love, give, share, help, bless, care for, admonish, lift up, encourage, and teach all for the purpose of pointing them in the right direction to follow Christ, NOT YOU! If God wanted people made in your image, he would have done it. And that's all man made leaders do, is try and influence people to their image of what you should be. Christ is our head. Not man!
Matthew 23:1-12 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
One is your teacher.. ANd it ain't Mark, John, Rosalie, LCM, your pastor, or anyone else. They may be great in influencing you, but the point is to get busy in following Christ, not the man who influenced you, who should have influenced you to follow Christ, not himself."
Happy saturday to all you greasespot members and readers! many thanks to all who have taken the time to read this thread, and to all who have posted on it! your posts have been very interesting to read, and your continued input is both encouraged and appreciated!
#4)--- how will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? in your opinion, have you, or, do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors , or evangelists?
I purposely left out "apostles", from the above list, which is taken from ephesians. i did so because, imho, anyone designating themselves as "apostles" in TWI or its offshoots, usually does so within the context of vic's "definition" of this particular "gift ministry"........which, (and i'm paraphrasing here), basically propounded that, "an apostle is one called and appointed by god, to bring 'new light' to his generation. it may be 'old light', but it is new to the generation to which he is sent to speak". imho, this was a totally self-serving "definition", invented by vic to add to his mystique as the self-appointed "man of god for our day and time"!.......even though vic referred to himself as "the teacher", the "fact" that he was an "apostle" to our generation, was a prevalent underlying presumption held by most of the way corps and twi "leadership", at least during my time in twi which ended in 1986. . again, imho, anyone so designating himself has a major delusional ego-trip problem, so i purposely left this "gift ministry" out of my question in my desire to keep it as objective as possible.
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------john s. and i spent little, if any, of our conversation time discussing the "gift ministry" of teachers, pastors, and evangelists. most of our conversation was focused on prophets and prohecy. as i've posted here before, john s. firmly believes that STF's current doctrine regarding prophets is "biblically accurate", as presented in their book, "PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANISFESTATION OF PROPHECY". therefore, as posted previously, STF will continue to teach their current "right doctrine" concerning the "gift ministry" of a prophet, until, or unless, they discover any "new light" in their understanding of this "gift ministry" via their "research and study" of "the scripture". john s. stated several times that, STF, as a ministry, is "consistently and constantly open" to "new understanding of scripture" as it may be unfolded to them via their "research" of the bible and study of materials offered by "other ministries". they are "absolutely committed" to believing and teaching only that which is "accurate according to the scriptures", and will not resist any change in their doctrine and practice demanded by their research and study findings. allow me to quote from an article by john s., as posted on STF's truth or tradition website.....i've quoted this article previously on this thread. "the balance of truth and love: valuing right doctrine and right relationships":
"As I have been reflecting on this lately, I know that nobody has more truth than God. God is the truth. When He had Scripture written, every syllable was true; and yet, I know that God has worked with me when I did not believe the truth on a lot of things. I see when I talk to other ministers and other denominations, that the Lord is working through them and people are getting saved and blessed under their ministries. What is very apparent to me, and I hope to you, is that God is working in them just as He is working in me! What does that tell me? It tells me that God values the relationship more than the truth that they hold. Last week I was studying the Word with Breit Paules and Shawn Mercer, and I saw something that changed a point of Scripture that I had believed for 35 years. This happened last week. We are changing all the time. We are getting better all the time! All of us think that we are learning more all the time; at least I hope that we are."
so, john s. believes that the current STF doctrine on the "gift ministry" of a prophet is "biblically accurate", and requires no change at this time. in the "function" or "practical application" of this "gift ministry" in and by STF "servant/leadership", there have been "mistakes" made in the past. as posted previously,what the future function of this "gift ministry" in and by STF "servant/leadership" will be is not "certain" at this time.
i can only assume that, somewhere in their plethora of tapes and publications, there exists some doctrine and/or teaching regarding teachers, pastors and evangelists, which you may read, and then decide for yourself if their "practice" of these "gift ministries" is indeed, "biblically accurate, or, if you think it needs to change.
DAN GALLAGHER-------dan and i spent no time in our conversations discussing teachers, pastors and evangelists, so, there's nothing more to say here about that......sorry.
JOHN LYNN-------john l. and i also spent no time in our conversations discussing teachers, pastors, or evangelists. based upon his e-mail to me of 11/25/07, which i quoted from (with permission from john l.), on my last post......i assume that john l. pretty much still holds to the understanding of the functions of these "gift ministries" as twi taught them. if you want to know more about what he believes regarding these "ministries", i suppose you can e-mail him or phone him at the address and phone number he's posted here at the greasespot. i apologize that i have no further info to post concerning answers to question #4, from the communications i have had with john s., dan g., and john l.. i guess those other "gift ministries" got lost in our discussions about prophets and prophecy!
Thanks again to all you greasespotters for your time in reading this thread, and, for your continued input!...........................peace.
I kinda think thought that the twi definition of an "apostle" was kinda shady too. Any second rate huckster who can read a few greek words, and bring some of E.W. Bullinger's "old light" to a "new" generation can be launched to stardom.. just pretend you know what Bullinger was talking about.
look at loy..
through his "might and power".. he even solved the riddle of the sphinx for us poor barely deserving of such greatness..
people actually fawned over him, saying that they were so blessed to have a man of gawd that could bring such "light"..
I actually thought at the time.. "what's the big deal? I read that in Bullinger ten years ago.."
What I find even more interesting in your discussions DWBH.. is their fixation on "prophethood".
It's the only one which by twi definition gives some half baked know it all the license to be as obnoxious as he or she wishes.
"often a hard man to live with"
Also gives one license to issue rather one sided edicts..
What I find even more interesting in your discussions DWBH.. is their fixation on "prophethood".
It's the only one which by twi definition gives some half baked know it all the license to be as obnoxious as he or she wishes.
Aside from the gift ministry of an apostle, as discussed..........what is it about *the prophet label* that seems to elevate one into a higher spiritual realm??
In other words.......having the gift ministry of an evangelist, or a pastor, or a teacher is that LESS relevant, LESS important to Almighty God?? Or, do these three (evangelist, pastor, teacher) more emphatically plant one's feet in the MINISTERING CATEGORIES of life and living??
It just seems to me that......prophet, prophetess, personal prophecy LAUNCH ONE'S SPIRITUAL ACUMEN into another stratosphere or something. Like, to say, he/she is the EYES and EARS of the church. :blink:
Woe unto those lowly, menial servants pastoring the flock of God.
During my time in TWI, since the minstry of "Apostle" was taken by VP (which meant, of course, that no one else could have that one), for some strange reason, the minstry of a "prophet" was always highly coveted. It was the ministry to have. The other ones paled sides the mighty prophet.
Why was that?
Also, pastor was usually relegated to the women Revs. in TWI, or, if you were an unusually sensitive (i.e., sweet, wimpy) guy, then you were one too. So, pastor was usually a woman's ministry in TWI, so, no status having that one.
I know LCM, DM and RR considered themselves prophets and prophetesses.
It seems to me to be nothing but an ego trip.
I have met only one true prophet in all of my years I was with TWI. And I only knew that because as the person was talking to me the word prophet flashed in my mind's eye like on a movie screen. Oddly enough, it was a very quiet, mild-mannered female, who happened to be a wonderful person, was never ordained, yet the BOT, VP and others would quietly go to her for advice. Of course, they did their own thing anyway and she hated being on staff and eventually got the heck out of Dodge.
But prophet seems to be the one everyone wants.
Seems people would rather follow the prophet, even if he/she leads them off a cliff, rather than follow Christ.
What do you need Christ for if you can just go hear from the prophet?
It just seems to me that......prophet, prophetess, personal prophecy LAUNCH ONE'S SPIRITUAL ACUMEN into another stratosphere or something. Like, to say, he/she is the EYES and EARS of the church. :blink:
something like "This MAN is the GREAT power of God" ?
I dunno, there's so much in the bible concerning prophets and those who prophecy falsely in God's name, and what happens to those who call themselves prophets and to those whom listen to them. I wouldn't want to be counted among them.
I find it ironic that John L warns us about the bema, when he's playing with fire spiritually.
In light of our borrowed heritage where the bible that was taught was plagerized from another source (BG Leonard) and the great evangelism in the begining came from Doop and Heefner who were run out on a rail, it is sort of self glorifying to be boasting of individual gift ministries.
Also, pastor was usually relegated to the women Revs. in TWI, or, if you were an unusually sensitive (i.e., sweet, wimpy) guy, then you were one too. So, pastor was usually a woman's ministry in TWI, so, no status having that one.
and, by the time said person did their job, i.e., brought people in the fold, brought cashola to the twi or SOME offshoot coffers, they were sent out of town on a rail:
In light of our borrowed heritage where the bible that was taught was plagerized from another source (BG Leonard) and the great evangelism in the begining came from Doop and Heefner who were run out on a rail, it is sort of self glorifying to be boasting of individual gift ministries.
During my time in TWI, since the minstry of "Apostle" was taken by VP (which meant, of course, that no one else could have that one), for some strange reason, the minstry of a "prophet" was always highly coveted. It was the ministry to have. The other ones paled sides the mighty prophet.
Why was that?
Also, pastor was usually relegated to the women Revs. in TWI, or, if you were an unusually sensitive (i.e., sweet, wimpy) guy, then you were one too. So, pastor was usually a woman's ministry in TWI, so, no status having that one.
I know LCM, DM and RR considered themselves prophets and prophetesses.
It seems to me to be nothing but an ego trip.
Bingo.
And......wasn't it common knowledge that Karen Anne, in CES/STI, wielded her influence as HEAD PROPHETESS?? Not just a prophetess......but HEAD PROPHETESS.
And furthermore.......WHY no evangelists moving about in CES/STI???? Gee, how convenient.......NO BOARD OF DIRECTOR IN CES/STI has that evangelist ministry, so no head-hancho is going to hit the streets and WITNESS, or initiate a movement winning NEW converts. Nope......they spend their time writing books, sending out newsletters and teaching "twigs" with ex-twiers...!!!
I wonder if she lived up to the twi definition.. a hard man, err, woman, to live with.. issuing one-sided edicts..
And furthermore.......WHY no evangelists moving about in CES/STI???? Gee, how convenient.......NO BOARD OF DIRECTOR IN CES/STI has that evangelist ministry, so no head-hancho is going to hit the streets and WITNESS, or initiate a movement winning NEW converts. Nope......they spend their time writing books, sending out newsletters and teaching "twigs" with ex-twiers...!!!
This is one reason I feel that CES is effectively "neutered".
They don't have the stamina to pull off any kind of effective witnessing campaign.. besides, it is far far easier to enjoy someone else's labors.
looking at the "bright" side.. I don't think any one "leader" has the wherewithal to start another similar organization. Nor would I think that he or she garner any kind of real support from the ex way community.
The troubling thing though, I think.. CES tried to fill a niche, not find a mission. What's their real passion here.. is it to really help people.. and how? Just by "researching" the bible? Giving little personal prophecies and palm readings? Selling worn out twi doctrine? Personally.. I've already bought a bookshelf full of new and improved, biblically "accurate" mousetraps.. got a whole closet full. What makes theirs any better?
The only difference I could detect in the few of their publications I've read..
I read their "major" work.. well it was at the time.. "one God and one lord".
They DOCUMENTED much of their sources.
The style of writing was better..
there was a little more continuity and organization.
But with few exceptions, I felt that it is the same material, nothing REALLY new. I think it is vic's legacy, in a new and improved package. I suppose that it fills some kinda niche..
Is this book of theirs that they keep referring to something like the Book of Mormon? Does it take the place of the collaterals from TWI? We were always quoting vee pee just as often, if not more, than actual "chapter and verse" - it sounds like they consider that book to be an addition to the Bible and just as "holy". :blink:
Snips from the first question:
#1) what is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"......
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-----mr. schoenheit believes that STF's current position on "personal prophecy" is biblically and doctrinally accurate, as outlined in their book,
john s., did say that STF will continue to teach its doctrine concerning "personal prophecy", and will continue to work on getting "better and better" at the proper practice of it......he also conceded that the term "personal prophecy" does not appear in the bible, but he believes that the practice is obvious in scripture, and used examples like nathan and david, and agabus and paul......
"does not appear in the bible.... but is...obvious in scripture" - sounds like private interpretation, to me.
Has it occurred to any of them that specific revelation, such as he is referring to, is rare and only involved in very specific, very important situations? Has it occurred to them that it was not ever a common or even a regular practice? Certainly not anything someone demanded from God.
Regarding Dan G:
he too believes, that the STF doctrine is accurate regarding "personal prophecy", but also feely admits that "mistakes in practice" have been made. he believes that these mistakes must be addressed by STF leadership with their followers, but this has to be put on a "back burner" until various legal issues raised by the lawsuit against him, are settled.......
So, they are putting on the "back burner" people and their lives and the lives that they've destroyed with this horrendous and unbiblical practice? Nice, real nice.
John Lynn
he too believes that STF doctrine concerning "personal prophecy" is " absolutely biblically accurate", as in outlined in the aforementioned book.
I think john has already proven that he can not think for himself nor actually provide coherent conversation. All he seems to know to do is to tell people to "read the book" (that is - their book - not the Bible)
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
doojable
Well said, Paw.
John L - it appears to me that you have not really grown or advanced even one little bit. The concept that God would limit Himself to ONE "package," ONE "ministry," ONE MOG is proof of how little you truly know and how selflessly you serve - yourself.
You wrote:
Maybe the point is just how well he knows you... I remember some abusive times around you and your cronies.Who made you the authority on what holds water? You apparently thought that personal prophecy was holding water to the point that you allowed it to affect your marriage.
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Tom Strange
where to start... where to start... (while I clearly understand that these responses from DWBH 'on their behalf')
I apologize for the length.
JS: the first part of your response to question 3 (not quoted here) is nothing more than a cowardly excuse. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm merely stating the obvious. You have no problem using all of STF's communication resources to generate "tremendous growth"... why wouldn't you use those same resources to generate TREMENDOUS HONESTY? I'll answer for you: BECAUSE IF YOU (&STF) WERE HONEST IN YOUR COMMUNICATION TO YOUR FOLLOWERS THE MONEY WOULD STOP COMING IN.Why don't you use STF's resources to communicate all of the information that's been posted here on GSC? Why not use STF's resources to communicate what is quoted above concerning the prophetic council? The only honest answer is because you don't want to.
OH, and JS... a few words of advice to you: you should quit deleting emails. They can probably be recovered anyway AND they could be ruled as evidence in the future. Courts have ruled that corporations have the responsibility to keep these records and (I think) have even been found to have 'destroyed evidence' when they did.
DAN GALLAGHER: So far, of the three protagonists, you come across as the most honest. I know that's not saying much given your present company... but I mean it as a compliment and look forward AS I'M SURE THE REMAINING FOLLOWERS OF STF DO to a day when you can "come clean" about all of this.
To JL: I have so much to say to you but I am convinced that you will not 'hear'. So I'm editing myself so as not to waste the time of the brethren but I will say this:
I don't have to have been at Hiroshima to know and understand the destruction that happened. I can tell perfectly from viewing the remnants in ashes. The same goes for being associated with anything with which you are involved.
TO JOHN S., DAN G., JOHN L. and MARK & KAREN ANNE G.:
How does it feel to base your decisions of how you will run your ministry, what you will communicate with your ministry, based upon whether or not it will generate cash?
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Bumpy
Unless you're a former German Cardinal aus Munchen of the Catholic Church currently enlisted in Rome as Pope Benedict XVI otherwise known as...
The Vicar of Christ! <_<
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Ham
well.. what can you say. Big cults start from little ones..
so do big fish in the sea.. they were someone's "baby" once.
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Sunesis
Thanks for your kind words DWBH earlier. I don't know who you are, but you're obviously an "old timer" who's perspective I think we all appreciate.
Well, that last question was a doozy and the answers were interesting.
John S - buy our books.
I don't know Dan so I won't comment.
John L. - The golden boy who's daddy's $$$$ bought him high status in VP's eyes and in TWI. The man who's probably never had a "real" job, pretty much had things handed to him. I never thought he was particularly "spiritual," no more than anyone else.
What I find sad is, for him to blithely still insist that they have the "best" package going, even after their package destroyed his marriage, almost toppled their ministry, resulting in and leading to lawsuits - well, I think he's delusional. Denial is a river in Egypt.
I see there is still blatent worship of "our father in the Word's" teachings, its just been repackaged, with some prophecy thrown in.
If he were serious (along with the other leaders), I mean really serious about teaching the Word to God's people, he'd go to school and get an education. The more I read of Church History, and other Bible perspectives, over the years it has become more and more apparent to me how uneducated TWI followers were in the "Biblical field." Being able to spout off verses and orientalisms does not make one a teacher or scholar. In fact, theologically, historically and in most other ways, we were downright ignorant, led by our "Father" VP who had a degree in preaching. Our little bit of "knowledge" made us downright dangerous to ourselves and those around us sometimes.
In fact, being stuck in PFAL mode is like repeating 2nd grade over, and over, and over. There is so much more out there God has to offer. Move on, move up. Yet, TWI offshoots insist they have the best, improved package - oh well.
And, if one were to decide to work within an organization again, I would think collectively that us ex-TWI'ers are not going to follow one man and his BOT.
I'd find a mainstream denominational church, with much input, psychological evaluations of their leadership, openess - i.e., a place where there are checks and balances, so no one man ever runs the show.
And, of course, there's the threat of last resort - the old "bema" card.
Anyone who tries to put fear into a child of God at meeting his Lord one day - well, its not Godly.
Being with Christ and being a new creation is the Christian's hope. For someone to use that to browbeat and put fear in one of God's children ("I wouldn't want to be you at the bema" - VPW and others), well, maybe a millstone should be tied around his neck.
Their package has wrought ruin - yet, they keep on pushing it.
I guess, no, they really haven't learned anything.
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Belle
My sentiments exactly.
I have been preparing a proper response, but just had to add what I've thought about these responses so far.... IF this is how the "leaders" of this so called "ministry" really think, then, I'm saddened, disappointed and DISGUSTED beyond belief.
I can only hope the people who are still supporting these bozos take note.
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Bumpy
And small movie stars as well! The question begs, should these orgs be banned and then canned...Mein Fuehrer?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7133867.stm
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Danny
Where is Johniam When you need him?
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Ham
No, but spading and neutering might be a real option here. The old large, tired, sad cult can then live out the rest of it's days in peace and contentment, just without adding to the organizational overpopulation problem..
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Bumpy
He's been "VIXXXED" or should I say FIXXXED!!!
Locked behind a closed door, his voice had become too loud, the other "animals" on the farm had grown weary of his denial, so they shut him away...for another rainy day!
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Danny
He just has that special way with words.
I'm sure he would have a reply not unless
he lives in that camp.
Oh my do we see a simularity here.
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Ham
and they've simply supplied us with a half a dozen more good excuses..
Does he really think when he stands before the lord..
"well done, thou whoest bledest thy life out for da organization.."
"depart from me, ye workers of wickedness, who refusest to hearken to da personal prophecy from mah chosen one.. even though he was on the low end of the learning curve..after all, he was just making a few mistakes.."
it really sounds like even more "biblical denial".
Just use a verse or two.. how we oughter get along.. keep a running motion picture in one's mind where you're at the bema.. getting rewarded.. others being roughly interrogated as to why they didn't agree with you..
I wonder how many times a day he plays it..
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now I see
The reality is he is scolding DWBH and all of the rest of us extwi non-ces persons that we're operating outside of "what the Word says the Body is supossed to function."
The real truth is, he has no clue what that is supossed to be. What he thinks he knows is how it should be done, but the dynamic organic body of Christ, with Christ-not a man-as the head, which God set up, and where each joint supplieth, is far from what he advocates.
Here's an excerpt on this exact point from a previous poster from the CES Crisis forum:
"Interesting to see that at least something might be done in CES. I'm glad for that.. It's a man made ministry, so I really could care less whether the "ministry" stands or falls. Because God is still God. Jesus is still our Lord. And we still have life! And the true church will still stand. The word ministry in the Bible is the word for serving. Not a "Bible club" which to me is all TWI and CES and the majority of churches / ministries have become. Just because they know Jesus, even personally, doesn't mean they follow Him. And if they follow Him, they won't be following man or a man made ministry. The body of Christ is to be made up of active members following Christ (serving). And it ain't for serving Koolaid!....
When will people wake up. The harvest is great. It's time to be working. Not making our own man-made groups with men at the helm leading it (having influence over others) and trying to see how he can keep leading it. Let him who wishes to be greatest among you be your SERVANT. Jesus never taught that it's for us to be serving the leaders. It's the other way around! You want to lead, then get out there and work. That's how you lead. Whether or not people follow and drink your koolaid. And even if they are influenced by your work, your not their leader, Christ is. So if any man is trying to "lead" people, they aren't following Christ, they are following their man made visions. Love, give, share, help, bless, care for, admonish, lift up, encourage, and teach all for the purpose of pointing them in the right direction to follow Christ, NOT YOU! If God wanted people made in your image, he would have done it. And that's all man made leaders do, is try and influence people to their image of what you should be. Christ is our head. Not man!
Matthew 23:1-12 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
One is your teacher.. ANd it ain't Mark, John, Rosalie, LCM, your pastor, or anyone else. They may be great in influencing you, but the point is to get busy in following Christ, not the man who influenced you, who should have influenced you to follow Christ, not himself."
Nuff said.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Happy saturday to all you greasespot members and readers! many thanks to all who have taken the time to read this thread, and to all who have posted on it! your posts have been very interesting to read, and your continued input is both encouraged and appreciated!
#4)--- how will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? in your opinion, have you, or, do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors , or evangelists?
I purposely left out "apostles", from the above list, which is taken from ephesians. i did so because, imho, anyone designating themselves as "apostles" in TWI or its offshoots, usually does so within the context of vic's "definition" of this particular "gift ministry"........which, (and i'm paraphrasing here), basically propounded that, "an apostle is one called and appointed by god, to bring 'new light' to his generation. it may be 'old light', but it is new to the generation to which he is sent to speak". imho, this was a totally self-serving "definition", invented by vic to add to his mystique as the self-appointed "man of god for our day and time"!.......even though vic referred to himself as "the teacher", the "fact" that he was an "apostle" to our generation, was a prevalent underlying presumption held by most of the way corps and twi "leadership", at least during my time in twi which ended in 1986. . again, imho, anyone so designating himself has a major delusional ego-trip problem, so i purposely left this "gift ministry" out of my question in my desire to keep it as objective as possible.
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------john s. and i spent little, if any, of our conversation time discussing the "gift ministry" of teachers, pastors, and evangelists. most of our conversation was focused on prophets and prohecy. as i've posted here before, john s. firmly believes that STF's current doctrine regarding prophets is "biblically accurate", as presented in their book, "PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANISFESTATION OF PROPHECY". therefore, as posted previously, STF will continue to teach their current "right doctrine" concerning the "gift ministry" of a prophet, until, or unless, they discover any "new light" in their understanding of this "gift ministry" via their "research and study" of "the scripture". john s. stated several times that, STF, as a ministry, is "consistently and constantly open" to "new understanding of scripture" as it may be unfolded to them via their "research" of the bible and study of materials offered by "other ministries". they are "absolutely committed" to believing and teaching only that which is "accurate according to the scriptures", and will not resist any change in their doctrine and practice demanded by their research and study findings. allow me to quote from an article by john s., as posted on STF's truth or tradition website.....i've quoted this article previously on this thread. "the balance of truth and love: valuing right doctrine and right relationships":
"As I have been reflecting on this lately, I know that nobody has more truth than God. God is the truth. When He had Scripture written, every syllable was true; and yet, I know that God has worked with me when I did not believe the truth on a lot of things. I see when I talk to other ministers and other denominations, that the Lord is working through them and people are getting saved and blessed under their ministries. What is very apparent to me, and I hope to you, is that God is working in them just as He is working in me! What does that tell me? It tells me that God values the relationship more than the truth that they hold. Last week I was studying the Word with Breit Paules and Shawn Mercer, and I saw something that changed a point of Scripture that I had believed for 35 years. This happened last week. We are changing all the time. We are getting better all the time! All of us think that we are learning more all the time; at least I hope that we are."
so, john s. believes that the current STF doctrine on the "gift ministry" of a prophet is "biblically accurate", and requires no change at this time. in the "function" or "practical application" of this "gift ministry" in and by STF "servant/leadership", there have been "mistakes" made in the past. as posted previously,what the future function of this "gift ministry" in and by STF "servant/leadership" will be is not "certain" at this time.
i can only assume that, somewhere in their plethora of tapes and publications, there exists some doctrine and/or teaching regarding teachers, pastors and evangelists, which you may read, and then decide for yourself if their "practice" of these "gift ministries" is indeed, "biblically accurate, or, if you think it needs to change.
DAN GALLAGHER-------dan and i spent no time in our conversations discussing teachers, pastors and evangelists, so, there's nothing more to say here about that......sorry.
JOHN LYNN-------john l. and i also spent no time in our conversations discussing teachers, pastors, or evangelists. based upon his e-mail to me of 11/25/07, which i quoted from (with permission from john l.), on my last post......i assume that john l. pretty much still holds to the understanding of the functions of these "gift ministries" as twi taught them. if you want to know more about what he believes regarding these "ministries", i suppose you can e-mail him or phone him at the address and phone number he's posted here at the greasespot. i apologize that i have no further info to post concerning answers to question #4, from the communications i have had with john s., dan g., and john l.. i guess those other "gift ministries" got lost in our discussions about prophets and prophecy!
Thanks again to all you greasespotters for your time in reading this thread, and, for your continued input!...........................peace.
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
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Ham
Interesting..
I kinda think thought that the twi definition of an "apostle" was kinda shady too. Any second rate huckster who can read a few greek words, and bring some of E.W. Bullinger's "old light" to a "new" generation can be launched to stardom.. just pretend you know what Bullinger was talking about.
look at loy..
through his "might and power".. he even solved the riddle of the sphinx for us poor barely deserving of such greatness..
people actually fawned over him, saying that they were so blessed to have a man of gawd that could bring such "light"..
I actually thought at the time.. "what's the big deal? I read that in Bullinger ten years ago.."
What I find even more interesting in your discussions DWBH.. is their fixation on "prophethood".
It's the only one which by twi definition gives some half baked know it all the license to be as obnoxious as he or she wishes.
"often a hard man to live with"
Also gives one license to issue rather one sided edicts..
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skyrider
Aside from the gift ministry of an apostle, as discussed..........what is it about *the prophet label* that seems to elevate one into a higher spiritual realm??
In other words.......having the gift ministry of an evangelist, or a pastor, or a teacher is that LESS relevant, LESS important to Almighty God?? Or, do these three (evangelist, pastor, teacher) more emphatically plant one's feet in the MINISTERING CATEGORIES of life and living??
It just seems to me that......prophet, prophetess, personal prophecy LAUNCH ONE'S SPIRITUAL ACUMEN into another stratosphere or something. Like, to say, he/she is the EYES and EARS of the church. :blink:
Woe unto those lowly, menial servants pastoring the flock of God.
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Sunesis
During my time in TWI, since the minstry of "Apostle" was taken by VP (which meant, of course, that no one else could have that one), for some strange reason, the minstry of a "prophet" was always highly coveted. It was the ministry to have. The other ones paled sides the mighty prophet.
Why was that?
Also, pastor was usually relegated to the women Revs. in TWI, or, if you were an unusually sensitive (i.e., sweet, wimpy) guy, then you were one too. So, pastor was usually a woman's ministry in TWI, so, no status having that one.
I know LCM, DM and RR considered themselves prophets and prophetesses.
It seems to me to be nothing but an ego trip.
I have met only one true prophet in all of my years I was with TWI. And I only knew that because as the person was talking to me the word prophet flashed in my mind's eye like on a movie screen. Oddly enough, it was a very quiet, mild-mannered female, who happened to be a wonderful person, was never ordained, yet the BOT, VP and others would quietly go to her for advice. Of course, they did their own thing anyway and she hated being on staff and eventually got the heck out of Dodge.
But prophet seems to be the one everyone wants.
Seems people would rather follow the prophet, even if he/she leads them off a cliff, rather than follow Christ.
What do you need Christ for if you can just go hear from the prophet?
Does CES/STFI even preach Christ anymore?
Interesting.
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Ham
something like "This MAN is the GREAT power of God" ?
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now I see
Or was it the great and powerful Oz?
I dunno, there's so much in the bible concerning prophets and those who prophecy falsely in God's name, and what happens to those who call themselves prophets and to those whom listen to them. I wouldn't want to be counted among them.
I find it ironic that John L warns us about the bema, when he's playing with fire spiritually.
In light of our borrowed heritage where the bible that was taught was plagerized from another source (BG Leonard) and the great evangelism in the begining came from Doop and Heefner who were run out on a rail, it is sort of self glorifying to be boasting of individual gift ministries.
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Ham
all that's left are momentus "grads".
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skyrider
Bingo.
And......wasn't it common knowledge that Karen Anne, in CES/STI, wielded her influence as HEAD PROPHETESS?? Not just a prophetess......but HEAD PROPHETESS.
And furthermore.......WHY no evangelists moving about in CES/STI???? Gee, how convenient.......NO BOARD OF DIRECTOR IN CES/STI has that evangelist ministry, so no head-hancho is going to hit the streets and WITNESS, or initiate a movement winning NEW converts. Nope......they spend their time writing books, sending out newsletters and teaching "twigs" with ex-twiers...!!!
Nothing new under the sun........is there?
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Ham
I wonder if she lived up to the twi definition.. a hard man, err, woman, to live with.. issuing one-sided edicts..
This is one reason I feel that CES is effectively "neutered".
They don't have the stamina to pull off any kind of effective witnessing campaign.. besides, it is far far easier to enjoy someone else's labors.
looking at the "bright" side.. I don't think any one "leader" has the wherewithal to start another similar organization. Nor would I think that he or she garner any kind of real support from the ex way community.
The troubling thing though, I think.. CES tried to fill a niche, not find a mission. What's their real passion here.. is it to really help people.. and how? Just by "researching" the bible? Giving little personal prophecies and palm readings? Selling worn out twi doctrine? Personally.. I've already bought a bookshelf full of new and improved, biblically "accurate" mousetraps.. got a whole closet full. What makes theirs any better?
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Ham
The only difference I could detect in the few of their publications I've read..
I read their "major" work.. well it was at the time.. "one God and one lord".
They DOCUMENTED much of their sources.
The style of writing was better..
there was a little more continuity and organization.
But with few exceptions, I felt that it is the same material, nothing REALLY new. I think it is vic's legacy, in a new and improved package. I suppose that it fills some kinda niche..
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Belle
Is this book of theirs that they keep referring to something like the Book of Mormon? Does it take the place of the collaterals from TWI? We were always quoting vee pee just as often, if not more, than actual "chapter and verse" - it sounds like they consider that book to be an addition to the Bible and just as "holy". :blink:
Snips from the first question:
"does not appear in the bible.... but is...obvious in scripture" - sounds like private interpretation, to me.
Has it occurred to any of them that specific revelation, such as he is referring to, is rare and only involved in very specific, very important situations? Has it occurred to them that it was not ever a common or even a regular practice? Certainly not anything someone demanded from God.
Regarding Dan G:
So, they are putting on the "back burner" people and their lives and the lives that they've destroyed with this horrendous and unbiblical practice? Nice, real nice.John Lynn
I think john has already proven that he can not think for himself nor actually provide coherent conversation. All he seems to know to do is to tell people to "read the book" (that is - their book - not the Bible)
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