HELLO AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!..........ANOTHER VISIT TO YOUR FORUM TO SEE IF YOU'VE POSTED ANYTHING TO LET US KNOW HOW THE "CRISIS" AT CES/STFI IS BEING RESOLVED!!..........ANOTHER VISIT YIELDING NO SIGHT OF ANY POSTS FROM YOU, ANSWERING ANY OF THE QUESTIONS ASKED OF YOU HERE AT THE GREASESPOT!..............
FROM YOUR ARTICLE, "FAILING FORWARD: TURNING MISTAKES INTO STEPPING STONES TO SUCCESS", BY DAN GALLAGHER...........
You see, failure is a lot more common than success. If people do not know how to fail properly and if they do not know how to fail forward, then they will never be able to reap the success that they really desire. You can be a winner in many ways, but you can only be a loser in one way—that is to fail and not look beyond the failure. One of the greatest problems that people have with failure is that they are too quick to judge isolated situations in their lives and then label them as failures. We are too quick to look at something when we are given some adversity or defeat and then give up. In fact, failing is really a gift if we can learn to have the proper perspective on it.
I GUESS THAT, THIS IS YOUR MINISTRY'S "DEFINITION" OF "RELATING TO ADVERSITY IN A HEALTHY, BIBLICAL WAY"!........I AM FORCED TO GUESS, SINCE I HAVE SEEN NO WORDS FROM ANY OF YOU ANYWHERE, THAT REVEAL FOR ANYONE WHAT YOUR "PERSPECTIVE" IS ON THE "MISTAKES" MADE BY YOUR BOARD OF DIRECTORS, AS OUTLINED IN JOHN'S LETTER POSTED HERE ALMOST ONE YEAR AGO!! MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ON THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD, PROVIDE AN EXCELLENT "PLATFORM" FOR YOU TO ENLIGHTEN US AS TO YOUR "PERSPECTIVE" ON THE "ADVERSITY" DETAILED FOR US IN JOHN'S LETTER, AND THE VARIOUS OTHER DOCUMENTS AND LETTERS POSTED HERE AT THE GREASESPOT, IMHO..........BUT, YOUR TOTAL LACK OF RESPONSE FORCES ME TO GUESS THAT, PERHAPS, YOU ARE NOT BUSY "TURNING MISTAKES INTO STEPPING STONES TO SUCCESS"!!....BUT, RATHER, HAVE CHOSEN TO "GIVE UP" TRYING TO SHARE WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, WHAT YOUR "PROPER PERSPECTIVE" IS, CONCERNING THE ADVERSITY YOUR MINISTRY AND ITS BOARD OF DIRECTORS IS FACING!........A COUPLE OF HONEST POSTS FROM YOU WOULD SURE HELP TO ELIMINATE THE GUESSING AND THE WONDERING ABOUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THE CURRENT AND FUTURE COURSE OF YOUR MINISTRY!!......STILL HOPING YOU'LL SHARE YOUR "PERSPECTIVE" WITH US HERE ON YOUR CES/STFI FORUM!!.........THANKS!.............................PEACE.
HELLO ONCE MORE, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.........ANOTHER VISIT TO YOUR FORUM HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE TO SEE IF YOU'VE POSTED ANYTHING TO GIVE US SOME INSIGHT INTO WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH YOUR MINISTRY THESE DAYS!........BUT, ALAS,.........STILL NOT ONE WORD FROM ANY OF YOU !!..............IS YOUR WILLFUL, PROTRACTED SILENCE, TRULY CHRIST-LIKE AND LOVING??...........
FROM YOUR ARTICLE "THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE: VALUING RIGHT DOCTRINE AND RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS", BY JOHN SCHOENHEIT.............
I think all of us know that we are supposed to be loving. We know we are supposed to be kind to people. Why is it when we settle upon something that we believe and say, “This is what I believe; this is the truth,” that it is so hard for us to be truly kind and compassionate and loving to others and have friends that do not believe like us? I think it has to do with how we hold our doctrine in our heart. We actually elevate our doctrine over love. We elevate our doctrine over our relationship with people. Well, guess who does not do that? How about God?
THIS FORUM, AND THIS THREAD IN PARTICULAR, HAS PROVIDED YOU GUYS WITH AMPLE OPPORTUNITY TO TELL YOUR GREASESPOT FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS,
"THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE; THIS IS THE TRUTH,"............IS IT REALLY THAT "HARD" FOR YOU "TO BE TRULY KIND AND COMPASSIONATE AND LOVING " TO THOSE OF US HERE AT THE GREASESPOT WHO CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOU AND YOUR MINISTRY TO ASK YOU HONEST AND PERTINENT QUESTIONS??........ARE YOU STUCK IN "WE ACTUALLY ELEVATE OUR DOCTRINE OVER LOVE" MODE??........IF, AS YOU PROCLAIM, GOD "DOES NOT DO THAT", WHY THEN WOULD YOU??.........A POST OR TWO FROM ANY OF YOU WOULD SURE BE KIND, LOVING AND COMPASSIONATE TOWARDS US "OTHERS" HERE AT THE SPOT, WOULD IT NOT??.........STILL PATIENTLY HOPING YOU'LL SHARE GOD'S LOVE WITH US BY POSTING SOME ANSWERS HERE FOR US!!.........................PEACE.
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.....HOW ARE YOU GUYS DOIN'?...........STILL HAVE NOT POSTED ANYTHING HERE AT YOUR GREASESPOT FORUM, I SEE!!...............WHEN WILL YOU??...............
FROM YOUR ARTICLE, "THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE: VALUING RIGHT DOCTRINE AND RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS", BY JOHN SCHOENHEIT...........
What I am talking about is something I have seen in myself and in Christianity today. That is sometimes the “truth” that I know, that I think I am sure of in God’s Word, creates in me an intolerance for other Christians and other people in general.
Now, is that not a paradox? What I have discovered here is sometimes the truth that I know, rather than being an engine that drives love in me and produces loving relationships actually drives me from relationships. In other words, because of the truth that I know, I look at other people that do not believe like I believe and I do not bring those people into my heart by truly loving them. For some reason I wrestled with this in my past and to some extent today. Is that not strange? I will say it again, sometimes the “truth” I know rather than being the engine that produces loving relationships drives me from loving relationships.
WHAT IS PARADOXICAL, IS YOUR EGREGIOUS SILENCE HERE, AFTER ALL THE MANY THOUSANDS OF VIEWS OF WHAT YOU CHOSE TO POST HERE EARLIER THIS YEAR!!..........IS THIS THE PROOF OF YOUR "INTOLERANCE FOR OTHER CHRISTIANS AND OTHER PEOPLE IN GENERAL" HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE??......WHAT HAS DRIVEN YOU FROM YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH US??........YOU POSTED SO MUCH HERE EARLIER THIS YEAR, AND NOW, NOTHING??......DOES THE TRUTH YOU KNOW DRIVE YOU FROM THOSE OF US WHO PRESENT YOU WITH HONEST QUESTIONS REGARDING WHAT THE TRUTH YOU BELIEVE TODAY IS??.............STILL WAITING PATIENTLY FOR YOU GUYS TO "LAY SOME TRUTH ON US" HERE AT YOUR FORUM!!..................PEACE.
GOOD EVENING AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!........ANOTHER DAY GONE BY WITH NO POSTS HERE FROM YOU OR ANYONE FROM YOUR MINISTRY'S "SERVANT/LEADERSHIP"!!........SURELY BY NOW YOU'VE HAD ENOUGH TIME TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING, NO??...........LOOKS LIKE YOUR PROLIFIC WRITING TEAM HAS COME ACROSS SOME FAQ'S THEY'VE DECIDED TO IGNORE!!..........WHY IS THAT??...........
FROM YOUR ARTICLE, "THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE: VALUING RIGHT DOCTRINE AND RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS", BY JOHN SCHOENHEIT........
As I have been reflecting on this lately, I know that nobody has more truth than God. God is the truth. When He had Scripture written, every syllable was true; and yet, I know that God has worked with me when I did not believe the truth on a lot of things. I see when I talk to other ministers and other denominations, that the Lord is working through them and people are getting saved and blessed under their ministries. What is very apparent to me, and I hope to you, is that God is working in them just as He is working in me! What does that tell me? It tells me that God values the relationship more than the truth that they hold.
If what we know is holding us back from being in genuine-fulfilling friendship / relationship with people, then something is wrong with the way we are relating to our doctrine. We are putting our doctrine above the love of people.
AMEN, MR. SCHOENHEIT!!....."GOD VALUES THE RELATIONSHIP MORE THAN THE TRUTH THAT THEY HOLD", BUT APPARENTLY THE MINISTRY YOU'RE PRESIDENT OF DOES NOT!!........"WE ARE PUTTING OUR DOCTRINE ABOVE THE LOVE OF PEOPLE.".....AMEN AGAIN, MR. SCHOENHEIT!!........SO WHY NOT COME DOWN OUT OF YOUR IVORY TOWER OF SILENCE AND ANSWER A FEW OF THE QUESTIONS POSTED HERE ON THE GREASESPOT FORUM PROVIDED YOU??........YOUR MINISTRY USED TO HAVE A FORUM SIMILAR TO THIS ONE AT ONE TIME.......WHAT HAPPENED TO IT??.......LOST THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE??........WHAT IS IT THAT YOU GUYS "KNOW" THAT IS "HOLDING" YOU "BACK FROM BEING IN GENUINE-FULLFILLING FRIENDSHIP/RELATIONSHIP" WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE??.......NOT A LARGE ENOUGH VENUE FOR YOU??..........STILL PATIENTLY HOPING THAT YOU'LL FIND US WORTH YOUR TIME AND LOVE TO SHARE SOME OF WHAT YOU KNOW WITH US!!.......................PEACE.
Hello to all my fellow patrons, and members of the greasespot cafe! Hello to all who visit here to read what the manager of this fine establishment has provided in the many, varied forums on the menu! Hello to all the current and former members of CES/STF who visit here, and/or, are members of the greasespot cafe cyber-community! And, hello, one final time to you, Jeff Blackburn and John Lynn!!
I started this thread just over 2 months ago, as a result of a phone call i received from john lynn in early january, 2007. when john called me, he wanted to fill me in on what was going on with him and CES/STF at the time. he said that, the amount of info was too much for him to cover in one brief phone conversation, so he asked me to come to the greasespot and read everything they (referring to himself and other members of CES/STFI) had posted here, and then, if i did'nt mind, to get back to him and let him know my thoughts regarding it all. as i've explained previously, on this thread, due to more pressing, personal circumstances in my life at that time, i did not get around to reading all the material to which john directed me here, until mid-august, 2007. at that time, after spending 3 weeks reading all the various threads and posts here, in the "CES In Crisis" forum........a forum started by Pawtucket in response to the volume of posts and views concerning all the info posted here about CES/STFI by Captain Crunch initially, and jeff blackburn, john lynn, and other members of CES/STFI...........i called john lynn and asked him for pawtucket's phone number, so that i might ask paw, what, if any, arrangements were made with jeff, john lynn, and CES/STFI, about the forum he provided for them here at the greasespot. Paw was gracious enough to answer all my questions, and then he invited me to become a member here, in order to post my thoughts about all of this right here at the greasespot.
I was a poster at waydale, and i became involved directly with Extwi's lawesuit against TWI and it's then board of trustees, until it was settled out of court by TWI......ultimately leading to martindale's resignation as TWI's president in april, 2001, and, eventually, to his being "let go" by TWI in september, 2001. i was also an early member of the greasespot cafe, but, after extwi's legal victory, and martindale's ignominious departure from TWI, i "retired" from the spot and just lived my life, enjoying my family and professional life. during my time at waydale and the very early days of the greasespot, i was inundated with phone calls, e-mails, visitors, etc., because of my previous "high profile" corps assignment in TWI, and the info i was able to post at waydale. that's why i did not want to start posting again here at the greasespot. i did not want to put myself in the position of being "overwhelmed" with communications and questions again. but, i realized that, because everything john lynn asked me to read was "published" here at the greasespot, the greasespot was really the only "right" place for me to respond to john lynn's initial request! so, i agreed to join and begin posting, if pawtucket did'nt mind me being "anonymous", so as to avoid undo attention (both positive and negative) to my posts, because of the unavoidable "name recognition" my posts might engender. i wanted to be read and treated just like anyone else here at the spot...........and, i still do..........so, i will keep my "handle", Don'tWorryBeHappy, ........and whatever anonymity it affords me..........i sincerely hope, that my decision regarding my "identity", does not offend or bother any of the other members of our greasespot cafe community.
It has been my opinion, that jeff b., john lynn, and the leadership of CES/STFI, have an ethical responsibility to post answers to my initial october 1, 2007 post, on this same thread, here at the greasespot cafe. that is still my opinion tonight. however, that is not the opinion of jeff b., or john lynn. nor is it the opinion of john schoenheit, or dan gallagher. i have spoken personally with john lynn, regarding this thread. at his behest, i have also spoken personally with john schoenheit and dan gallagher about this thread. my conversations with each of them have been amicable, mutually respectful, and, honest. i would still prefer that they speak for themselves here at the greasespot.........but, we have agreed to disagree on that point.........all 3 have, however, agreed to allow me to quote specific parts of our conversations, and, john lynn has agreed to allow me to quote specific parts of a personal e-mail he sent me recently. i have agreed to do so honestly, and, within certain "constraints" forced upon us by the ongoing lawsuits being pursued individually against john lynn, jeff blackburn and dan gallagher by mark and karen ann graeser. they (john l., john s., and dan) each have trusted me to do as i promised, and i will therefore, abide by the terms we have agreed upon. i will not breach or betray that agreement. i hope i have earned the trust of my fellow geasespotters, that i will post the facts pertinent to this thread, as nspoken to me by john s., john l., and dan, within the framework of the constraints we have agreed upon. i have not, as of this writing, spoken with jeff b.
i apologize if i have offended any of my fellow greasespotters with this thread. i have done my best to encourage these men to post for themselves here, but, as i will explain, it is their belief, that they cannot, or should not post here at this time. i will try to bring closure to this thread. i will try my best to spread out this closure over several posts, so as to avoid one long, huge, post that "bores to death" any and all who have an interest in reading the answers given me by them, and, my final conclusions and thoughts regarding those answers. thank you in advance to all of you who may choose to read...........
i will begin with the answers to my questions in post #1 of this thread, as given to me by the 3 people i have personally spoken with. i'll be happy to respond as i can to any questions you may have as we go along............SO,............HERE GOES............
#1) what is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"......
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-----mr. schoenheit believes that STF's current position on "personal prophecy" is biblically and doctrinally accurate, as outlined in their book,
"PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANIFESTATION OF PROPHECY". he freely admitted that "mistakes have been made" in the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of their doctrine, and the practice of personal prophecy by some at the BOD level of STF. he feels the mistakes in practice were the result of a normal learining curve in the proper use of this manifestation, among both the leadership of STF, and the general membership. he likened it to the process of normal human growth and development in areas like learning to walk, talk, read, spell, etc., mistakes are part of the normal growth and learning process, and, though painful at times, are usually "unavoidable" when learning anything "new"........he did not come across as flippant to me, about mistakes made, nor did he seek to avoid discussion of specific mistakes, or necessary corrections. he appears to be quite willing to discuss specifics with anyone who wants to do so with him, and says he would be happy to speak with any STF follower who calls him with with such specifics, and/or questions. i take him at his word. but, i am not a follower of STF, nor do i believe their doctrine concerning "personal prophecy"......thus, i personally have no specifics regarding "personal prophecy" to discuss with him, other than those raised by some of the info posted here, regarding the personal prophecies given to or concerning, elizabeth lynn. he did concede that mistakes were made by various personal prophecy practitioners regarding mrs. lynn, but i did not discuss that at length with him..........nor do i feel that discussing prophecies concerning elizabeth lynn on this thread would be proper for me.....but, as i said, if you would like t do so with mr.schoenheit, he says he will take your call.......so, take him up on it and let us know what happens, if you choose to. john s., did say that STF will continue to teach its doctrine concerning "personal prophecy", and will continue to work on getting "better and better" at the proper practice of it......he also conceded that the term "personal prophecy" does not appear in the bible, but he believes that the practice is obvious in scripture, and used examples like nathan and david, and agabus and paul......again, i personally do not agree that these records, (nor the others he listed rapidly) are indeed, examples of "personal prophecy" in the bible.......but, thats just me.....he did express to me that he thinks there was an "over-reliance" upon the use of "personal prophecy" as practiced by some at the STF BOD level, due to their previous track record of "accuracy", but feels this is being addressed, and will continue to be addressed further in "due time"........i cannot go into further specifics at this time, in this public forum.........
DAN GALLAGHER-------mr. gallagher is currently a defendant in a lawsuit, which restricts both what he can discuss about personal prophecy and what i can post about our discussion concerning the question. he too believes, that the STF doctrine is accurate regarding "personal prophecy", but also feely admits that "mistakes in practice" have been made. he believes that these mistakes must be addressed by STF leadership with their followers, but this has to be put on a "back burner" until various legal issues raised by the lawsuit against him, are settled.......that's all i can post about this at tis time.
JOHN LYNN-------john lynn is also a defendant in a lawsuit, individually, and separately from dan, and jeff b.......they are not "co-defendants".......he is retiscent about discussing much at all, "publically", about the many things posted on the web about his private life......plus, according to john, there are now many constraints upon him because of this lawsuit, that prevent him from being able to "publically" answer or post anything regarding the numerous issues raised by his letter posted hear at the greasespot last december. he too believes that STF doctrine concerning "personal prophecy" is " absolutely biblically accurate", as in outlined in the aforementioned book. he has given me permission to post here, a quote from an e-mail he sent me on 11/25/07, which follows:
"neither john [schoenheit] nor i read Gspot. The Lord knows our hearts, he knows the investment He has made in our ministry due to our faithfulness to hold fast to the truth of the Word, and we count on him to move us through the current situation and open doors for us to share the marvelous truth we are privileged to know. If and when the time comes that we think it is best to address the issue with those involved with STF, we will, but most likely not on Gspot. Very few of our supporters are swayed by anything on GS, and we have seen little fruit from any involvement there."
john lynn is not a current member of the STF BOD. he is a "private citizen", who promotes STF in his "spare time". he teaches often at various STF events and fellowships, and contributes articles and teaching tapes to their magazines and on-line store. he has no "official" leadership role in STF at this time......... as others have quoted him on this thread, he is willing to talk with you personally if you choose to contact him. my questions as posted to him on this thread, still stand. but, due to his current legal situation, that's all i can post at this time.
OKAY!!!................that's enough for tonight!!........more will follow during the next several days..........to all my fellow greasespotters, from the bottom of my heart to yours...................peace.............DWBH.
he freely admitted that "mistakes have been made" in the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of their doctrine, and the practice of personal prophecy by some at the BOD level of STF. he feels the mistakes in practice were the result of a normal learining curve in the proper use of this manifestation, among both the leadership of STF, and the general membership
Interesting. What I wonder though is.. I didn't think there was exactly a "learning curve" that lasts from late adolescence into late adulthood when it comes to the manifestations.. supposed to be like "easy as falling off a log backwards".
Learning curve perhaps, but I wouldn't exactly call it "normal".
It all seems to go back to their little book..
mr. schoenheit believes that STF's current position on "personal prophecy" is biblically and doctrinally accurate, as outlined in their book,
"PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANIFESTATION OF PROPHECY".
The little book appears to be "untouchable"
Maybe it really is time for all the players in the CES fiasco to turn in their chips..
I agree with our bushy tailed rodent friend... if Personal Prophecy were "of God" or "from God" wouldn't it be perfect from the get go? Sorry, this just sounds (so far) like so much babble... but at least it's something. To me (IMO), they're just digging themselves a deeper ditch...
Hello to everybody following the "long and winding road" of this thread!.........thanks for your posts, Belle, Mr.Hammeroni, and Tom Strange!.........i agee that the "learning curve" in STF for the "practical application" and operation of "personal prophecy" seems somewhat lengthy.........john s. did make a distinction between what he termed "corporate prophecy" and "personal prophecy".......corporate being a message from or for god to a body or group of believers and personal being just that, personally to a specific individual.......but, one of my problems with the examples of david and nathan, and paul and agabus, being "obvious" examples of " personal prophecy" in the bible is, that both david and paul were not just "average individuals" who were the objects of personal instruction or information from god.......david was the king of israel!.....the situation nathan was prophesying to david about was far more important to the kingdom of israel as a whole, than just a sin david committed in his "personal life"!!.........the ramifications of sin in david's life affected every person in the nation of israel because of david's position as israel's king!.......within the context of that position, david really had no "personal life" that was of no concern to every member of the tribes.......everything he did, said and thought in his heart had an impact on the legitimacy and righteousness of his reign, imho!.....so, god's prophetic reproof to david via nathan was of great import and impact not only to david personally, but also to the entire nation over which he was king.......a nation comprised of god's chosen people!!......david's responsibility, and accountability, was not merely "personal", but rather "national", because of his position as king........so also with paul......paul was god's apostle to the nations!.......his entire life revolved around his calling by god and jesus christ to preach the revelation of jesus christ to the whole world with particular emphasis of lifelong service to the church of the body of christ..his life was "not his own"......if he was wrong about going to jerusalem, it was not just a personal mistake,......it was a mistake that would affect the entire church........as i said, just one of my problems..........
#2) what is your ministry's current position regarding karen ann graeser's understanding and application of the "gift ministry" of a prophet? what have you learned or "unlearned" from mark and karen ann?
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------Mr. schoenheit again referred to the STF book on prophecy, reiterating that he and the rest of the STF BOD believe that, their doctrine regarding the "gift ministry" of a prophet is "biblically sound and accurate". there are, however, "major disagreements" among the current BOD members as to the "practice" of "personal prophecy", and the "gift ministry" of a prophet, as carried out by mrs. graeser during the recent past,.......particularly calendar year 2006. these "disagreements" to date, remain "irreconcilable", and were among the issues that led to the personnel change in the position of president of STF in january, 2007. apparently, it is steve resner and mark graeser who disagree with the rest of the BOD regarding the "practical application" of "personal prophecy" and the "gift ministry" of a prophet in the church as "operated" by mrs. graeser, and others in STF who agree with her "current practice". STF is not currently being sued by the graeser's, nor is john schoenheit. however, john s. and i agreed that, it remains a "possibility" that this could change, since the pursuit of the current lawsuits against jeff b., john lynn, and dan gallagher, is totally the prerogative, and in the "control" of the graeser's, and it is ultimately up to them as to whether or not these lawsuits will continue, and if new lawsuits will be initiated against STF and/or mr. schoenheit. in light of this, john s. and i agreed to suspend any further discussion, at this time, regarding mrs. graeser's practice of "personal prophecy" and her "operation of the gift ministry" of a prophet. john s. did say that, STF will continue to teach what their book declares to be "correct doctrine" concerning the manifestation prophecy, and will continue to encourage STF supporters to "improve" the practical application of this doctrine so as to avoid repeating "mistakes" made in the past, and to eliminate any "over-reliance" upon the use of this manifestation, and/or the "gift ministry" of a prophet.
DAN GALLAGHER-------dan is very limited as to what he can discuss about anything involving the graeser's, due to their current ongoing lawsuit against him. he feels strongly that, once the lawsuit is settled, and the legal boundaries regarding what he may state publicly are established, he will freely discuss whatever he is allowed to with anyone who has "questions or concerns". dan and i also agreed that, the ultimate "control" of the status of the current lawsuit against him rests with the graeser's, and whatever court will have jurisdiction over the case.
JOHNLYNN-------obviously, john lynn's letter of december, 2006, to mark graeser, ( an editterd version of which is posted here at the greasespot cafe), and letters to and from elizabeth lynn posted here at the greasespot, and the "personal prophecies" to and about elizabeth (also posted here at the greaespot), contain a great deal of information about john l's "position" regarding karen ann graeser's "understanding and application of the 'gift ministry' of a prophet". beyond that which is already a matter of "public record" here at the greasespot, john l., under the advice of legal counsel, is not able to discuss anything further, publicly, at this time.
obviously, the lawsuits being pressed by the graeser's against jeff b., john l., and dan g., are putting quite a damper on what these men feel they can discuss publicly about this second question i asked. it really is a shame, imho, that the graeser's have placed their "personal" feelings above STF's responsibility to share all the truths and facts about this crucial issue to their ministry, with the supporters of their ministry!........again, imho, their choice to pursue these lawsuits against their brethren is not faithful to biblical instruction regarding the proper handling of such "doctrinal disputes" between elders and "servant/leaders" in the christian church........seems to me that, each side should just come out and say what they believe the points of disagreement between them are, and then let their followers choose whom they will believe and follow!!........sure would save a lot of everybody's time and money, dontcha think???..........but, again,......that's just me.......
thanks again to all those who have taken the time to read this thread.............question #3 tomorrow.....................peace.
Well, I guess all I can think of is, its just sad. With all the harm and off the wall prophecies resulting in great hurt, destruction of a marriage, and ultimately lawsuits and other things, how can they still feel this whole personal prophecy thing is right, and godly? Look at the results, or "fruit."
I don't think God will be able to work with them or teach them until they get this wrong teaching/darkness out of their ministry.
After all this, you would think someone would have learned something.
After all this, you would think someone would have learned something.
Great points Sunesis...
My thoughts about this 'second chapter' are pretty much the same as yesterday: "if Personal Prophecy were "of God" or "from God" wouldn't it be perfect from the get go?"
Their answers seem to remain "it is of/from God" (and it's in our book)... so that only leads me to conclude that those who were operating the manifestation/ministry were not doing so "of/from God"... it would kind of shoot "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" all to pieces wouldn't it?
With all the harm and off the wall prophecies resulting in great hurt, destruction of a marriage, and ultimately lawsuits and other things, how can they still feel this whole personal prophecy thing is right, and godly?
I think that's the "learning curve" JS was referring to..
"They beat themselves up and then they testify that we hired people to come to their house and beat them up," said Steve Stevens, who goes by the nickname "White Bob" to distinguish him from his swarthier cousin, "Black Bob."
"swarthier"?
Thanks.. I finally got what Kesey was alluding to about the cornstarch..
but the parallels are rather interesting. They beat the snot out of each other with prophecies and religious inuendo and some maybe not entirely false accusation, and then they blame the devil for tearing their organization apart? "see, we all gotta band together on the big T truth.. the "truth" itself is at stake here.. we've got the bruises to prove it.."
Hi to all you Greasespotters out there!!.........hope you're having a good holiday season so far, and getting all that shopping and shipping done!
Thanks for your posts, Sunesis, Strange One, Mr.Hammeroni,and monsieur LeBump!....i re-read some of the letters and "prophecies" posted here on Captain Crunch's original "CES is in a Mess" thread, which was started almost one year ago, on december 16, 2006. i was still shaking my head in disbelief and disgust at the "mistakes" made by the CES/STFI "servant leadership" in their "practical application of the manifestation of prophecy", both corporate and personal. thanks again, Captain Crunch for having the guts to put out all that stuff!......and, thanks to elizabeth lynn for allowing her letters and the "prophecies" given to/about her to be posted. most likely, very little, if anything, would have come to light about how deviant the decision making processes at the CES/STFI BOD level had become.....nor would we have known what questions to ask, or what changes to look for, had we not had the greasespot cafe open and running, to provide a forum for those folks to "spill the beans"!!........thanks Pawtucket, for keeping this place open, and not being afraid to provide new menu items for us customers!
Sunesis.....your post asks the most relevant and poignant questions regarding both the doctrine and the practice of "understanding and utilizing the manifestation of prophecy" as demonstrated by CES/STFI, now simply STF. i agree with the strange one, "great points sunesis"! and, tom strange, your questions are equally poignant and to the point.......mr.ham, and bumpy both find it difficult to accept the oh-so-long "learning curve" of destruction that is still bending and curving its way through the STF fellowships and events around the world!.......me too!
#3)- what do you believe your ministry's responsibility is to your followers regarding an explanation of "what went wrong"? what have you done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice?
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------mr. schoenheit stated that, he is always more than happy to hear from any STF supporter, anytime, from anywhere, who has specific questions or concerns regarding the beliefs and practices propounded by STF. he stated that his personal "best" way of working with people who have questions, is via phone, or face-to-face conversation. he lives in a rural location where he is limited to dial-up internet access, which makes e-mail communication cumbersome and slow, and he's really not that "accomplished" at internet use. he prefers hearing the voice of the person with all the conversational and inflectional nuance voice communication affords the parties involved. he said he tends to delete e-mails once he's responded to them, so "follow-up" at a later date is usually unavailable since addresses and phone numbers are lost in cyberspace. he did not seem to have a problem talking with me or answering my questions on the phone. he did state that, through the years, there have been small numbers of "disgruntled followers" of CES/STFI who have remained "dissatisfied" with various "positions" taken or not taken by their ministry, and have left the ministry or remain critical of it. but, he feels that "this kind of thing" happens in all "churches or ministries", and is unavoidable when dealing with the public and/or "former followers". if people choose to remain disgruntled, there is really "no response that will satisfy them", but, he's always willing to try and resolve issues with ministry followers/supporters. he did provide a caveat regarding those who are "nasty" or, "obviously just want to argue", saying that he really does not have the time to engage in dialogue with folks who are determined not to really seek resolution or to restore a "right relationship" with CES/STFI/STF. he did state that he would like to "keep in touch" with me if i have any future questions or concerns about STF doctrine or practice. he stated that STF continues to enjoy "tremendous growth" around the world, and that he believes god will continue to bless their ministry and its supporters, as they remain "faithful to the word". as far as what they've done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice, the following specifics were discussed........the "prophetic council" was was disbanded in january, 2007, and there has been no such council in operation at STF throughout calendar year 2007. john said that the "prophetic council" was CES/STFI's response to the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks on the usa. he said, that , following 9/11, various CES/STFI followers from around the country and the world, wrote of "visions" and "dreams" they had experienced of "burning skyscrapers" or "airplanes crashing into buildings", prior to the actual events of 9/11. john said, "i'm not saying that we might have prevented 9/11 from happening, but if we had had a cleainghouse of some sort, to gather and evaluate such "visions", then perhaps we could have at least alerted our followers that our country was in need of fervent prayer, because of imminent threat". so, according to john s., that is the genesis of the CES/STFI "prophetic council". he also stated that this council's "function got out of hand", and was "overly relied upon" because of the previous "prophetic track record" of accuracy of some of its members. it was, therefore, disbanded in january, 2007. there are no plans to re-institute a "prophetic council" at this time. john also stated that, there has been a purposeful "de-emphasis" on the practice of "personal prophecy" by STF, throughout its "events and fellowships", in order to avoid wrong practice and repetition of "any mistakes" made in the use of this manifestation. what the future role of "personal prophecy" in STF, may be is not certain. but, STF will continue to offer its publication on prophecy, and will continue to teach the "right doctrine" contained therein. he also stated that, he does not believe that the greasespot cafe is an appropriate forum for STF to publicly address any previous CES/STFI "problems or mistakes". he feels that STF, through its various "newsletters, magazine and websites", has enough resources of its own to communicate whatever the BOD decides is necessary and proper, whenever it decides to do so.
DAN GALLAGHER-------of the 3 men i spoke with, dan seemed the most eager to publicly address any and all "issues or past mistakes" of CES/STFI. he feels strongly that, STF has a "moral and spiritual responsibility" to do so. he is frustrated that the current lawsuit against him by the graeser's constrains him from being able to handle many of the "specific issues" he feels need to be addressed now. i take dan at his word. and, i too am frustrated by the selfishness (imho) of the graeser's insistence upon pursuing this foolish lawsuit, instead of allowing STF to deal with the many isssues raised by the various CES/STFI practices promoted and in use, while the graeser's and their supporters were "running the show". i believe dan could be and would be doing alot more publicly, were it not for the lawsuit. again, that's just my opinion after talking with dan.
JOHN LYNN-----of the 3 men i spoke with, john l. seems the most retiscent at publicly addressing the "past mistakes" made by CES/STFI. imho, that could be due to the fact that, there are so many "issues" involving john l.'s past with CES/STFI splattered across cyberspace over the last ten years, that, it is just too overwhelming right now for him to handle them all publicly. he re-married elizabeth this past spring, has his SAT prepartion classes to promote and run, and he travels quite a bit, teaching for and promoting STF. since he has no "official" position currently with STF, he has been more "vocal" about the various "issues" raised by the numerous threads regarding the "crisis" at CES/STFI posted here at the greasespot. but, under the advice of legal counsel, he now feels he must "cut back" on his public comments regarding "all of this", because he also is being sued by the graeser's at this time. however, he has granted me permission to post specific parts of his recent (11/25/07) e-mail to me, which may shed some light on his "answer" TO QUESTION #3. JOHN L. feels very strongly that, the greasespot is not an appropriate venue on which he should post anything. despite the posts he himself has made here, or those posted by others containing information written by him, (i.e. his letter to mark graeser of december, 2006), he feels he has borne the brunt of numerous "vicious", "mean-spirited", personal attacks here at the greasespot, and also from e-mails, letters or phonecalls from greasespot members to the address and phone number he posted here. as many of you have read from him before, here at the spot, he does not believe he is responsible to respond to anyone who refuses to use their real name when communicating with him.
quotes from john lynn's e-mail to me, dated 11/25/07:
"I was most blessed to read in your last email that you want to be pro-truth and transparency re: ministries with their roots in TWI. I believe you, and that brings up a lot for me. First, I think you will agree that there was nowhere else on earth that you, I, et al, could have heard the Word we did in TWI. In PFAL, we were in the right place at the right time. The enemy saw the theretofore unparalleled conjunction of biblical truth (TWI was by far the most significant unitarian, dispensational movement we know of since the 1st century church) and young, capable, energetic, and committed men and women like you and me, and he used every means to destroy TWI and its people."
"In the 20+ years since, I think I've had as good a vantage point as anyone from which to view the development of ministries begun by ex-Way folks. Some have abandoned critical elements of the faith (the administrations in Scripture, for one) and gone to planets far, far away. Others have, in my opinion, evolved into pretty much a TWI replica run by decent people who do care about God's people. I cannot say that they love God and people more or less than we do, but I can say that I know no one has more right doctrine to offer than we do."
"On the practical side, DWBH, I sure hope you know me well enough to know that I would not be a part of anything that was in any way abusive, dishonest, clandestine, or in any way ungodly, and I think you may know JS well enough also. If not, trust me, he would not countenance anything like that either. Nor would Dan Gallagher, and that is why they stood against the ---------- when they realized what was going on. I believe we are without guile."
"Furthermore, we long ago realized the privilege that was ours to hear the Word as it hasn't been taught since the first century, and we have not taken lightly our responsibility to steward it, build upon it, and make it known. We also saw what happened in TWI and are committed not to repeat any of the errors thereof. Our Father has been faithful to help us touch the hearts of thousands of people around the world--and that number is growing exponentially."
"OK, so I put myself in your shoes, given what you said, and I assume that you must still hold to the Word as your bottom line for faith and practice. If so, I think I can make a case that your present "wild card" status isn't serving you if you want to best carry out your commitment to the Body. I don't know what you are accomplishing on Gspot, but I do know that from your current perspective, you have little understanding of what STF is all about. The Word clearly says that each of us is to be closely involved with others of like mind and heart, for the sake of the Lord and the Gospel."
"During the past 20 years, I have heard countless excuses from ex-Way folks as to why they want no part of another "organization," etc. I can understand their pain, but if I am to take the Word seriously, none hold water, biblically speaking, nor will they at the Bema. You know what the Word says about how the Body is to function. I love you, and I'd like to hear why you think the best use of your time is posting on Gspot rather than getting up close and personal with us and seeing if what I say is true. At least then you could be a firsthand witness, one way or the other."
"I don't know if you have read/heard any of what we teach, but why not check it out? Why not call John and/or Dan and get to know their hearts?"
as you all know, despite their refusal to respond here at the greasespot, i have now called john s., dan gallagher, and john l.. i am doing my best to post what they have permited me to post on this thread.........and to do so honestly, objectively and straightforwardly. i am purposely trying to "withhold" my personal, long-considered opinions regarding these reponses until after i have posted these responses here. then, separately, i will post my own thoughts, in light of the phone conversation i had with john lynn in january,2007, so as to avoid any confusion as to who said what, when, etc...........i am doing my best to accurately present the responses they've given me within the framework of my agreeement with these 3 men. i am taking my time because i don't want to screw it up!!............so, thanks to all you wonderful greasespotters for your patience and for taking the time to read this really long thread!!!..............................peace.
DWBH, I think this is a game you have play with "kid gloves". These guys at CES are all old wounded TWI Vets, playing their next and possibly final act out in the courtrooms of America. Not a place I would want to be "advertising" a Christian ministry!
As a former long distance supporter, there are few things I personally miss, other than the company of good old fashioned brainwashed fellow cult believers opening up song books! Only Kidding!!
IF, corporate America can be used as an example, the cult heads of state have to be removed due to lack of job performance. You can't put this crap out into the public domain, and still spin the weekly Bible CD off in the mail. Credibility is the issue, and too many people (myself included) are tired of hearing the same old tunes.
Once it became a legal issue for the courts, the train left the station. (Did you write the book of love & do you have faith in God above?)
Humpty Dumpty cannot be resurrected with the same characters writing the script! Le Bump
Thank you DWBH for taking the time to go through all of this in order to allow information to see the light of day.
Thank you Bumpy for your comments which I also think are spot on!
I've got a lot to comment on in that last post of yours DWBH... right now I only have this to say:
To John S&L - RUBBISH! (translated what comes out of the south end of a north bound bull)
To Dan G. - Thanks for being forthright and not making excuses. I think there are a lot of people who want to hear what you have to say at a later date.
These responses, and especially this one to question number 3, really shine a bright and glaring light on the two Johns...
I agree with LeBump and Mr. Strange, but I would add this to his list:
To the Graesers-shame on you, for disrupting, misdirecting and confusing your brethren in Christ, and then double shame on you for allowing the courts to settle your dispute. I'm fairly certain that the record in Corinthians does not agree with this practice, just as DWBH has said.
I also have lots to comment on but unfortunately I need to get back to work.
Yes, I know the teaming masses have been waiting with bated breath for me to weigh in on this issue, so here goes.
As reprehensible as I find the actions of STIFFY - and any of the other various and sundry splinters for that matter - I find I have an equal amount of disdain for anyone dumb enough to buy into such nonsense FOR A SECOND TIME!
Unrestrained credulity has its costs. "Decoder ring" theology didn't prove itself out very well with the likes of the conman VP, why in the world would you think his minions have anything more to offer? If you're willing to throw in with the SAME CAST of maladjusted characters, pitching basically the same old snake oil (NEW! IMPROVED!), well, I think you deserve whatever you get.
Good grief, we're in our 40's and 50's now (some in their 60's), Isn't it about time to wake up and smell the DECADE?
So, for those who STILL don't get it, I'll help you out. There IS NO Santa Claus, you really CAN'T start a "zeo-down" real estate empire with the change leftover from your lunch at McDonald's, and there are no long-lost secrets hidden in The Bible that some red-mouthed, mid-west jerkoff has just discovered, and that will change your life markedly for the better if you just study hard enough. Grow up fer Chrissake.
JOHN L. feels very strongly that, the greasespot is not an appropriate venue on which he should post anything. despite the posts he himself has made here, or those posted by others containing information written by him, (i.e. his letter to mark graeser of december, 2006), he feels he has borne the brunt of numerous "vicious", "mean-spirited", personal attacks here at the greasespot, and also from e-mails, letters or phonecalls from greasespot members to the address and phone number he posted here.
if this isn't the right place, what venue does he feel is "appropriate"?
I can only think, in his mind, no "public" venue will treat him "nicely". Along with the rest of the higher ups.
If I were him.. I'd still ask myself a few questions..
The Graesers were at least at one time very very close friends.. with him, and the Schoenheits as well.. "committed" to da word of CES as strongly as he was. They were at least once like-minded.
What happened? Where did the "commitment" go, the "friendship"?
friends don't exactly take friends to court, at least LIGHTLY.
It's easy to just blame the devil for something like this. I think it's more along the lines of being in "biblical denial".
I wonder if he's even considered looking at all of this from a "five senses" perspective..
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!..........ANOTHER VISIT TO YOUR FORUM TO SEE IF YOU'VE POSTED ANYTHING TO LET US KNOW HOW THE "CRISIS" AT CES/STFI IS BEING RESOLVED!!..........ANOTHER VISIT YIELDING NO SIGHT OF ANY POSTS FROM YOU, ANSWERING ANY OF THE QUESTIONS ASKED OF YOU HERE AT THE GREASESPOT!..............
FROM YOUR ARTICLE, "FAILING FORWARD: TURNING MISTAKES INTO STEPPING STONES TO SUCCESS", BY DAN GALLAGHER...........
You see, failure is a lot more common than success. If people do not know how to fail properly and if they do not know how to fail forward, then they will never be able to reap the success that they really desire. You can be a winner in many ways, but you can only be a loser in one way—that is to fail and not look beyond the failure. One of the greatest problems that people have with failure is that they are too quick to judge isolated situations in their lives and then label them as failures. We are too quick to look at something when we are given some adversity or defeat and then give up. In fact, failing is really a gift if we can learn to have the proper perspective on it.
I GUESS THAT, THIS IS YOUR MINISTRY'S "DEFINITION" OF "RELATING TO ADVERSITY IN A HEALTHY, BIBLICAL WAY"!........I AM FORCED TO GUESS, SINCE I HAVE SEEN NO WORDS FROM ANY OF YOU ANYWHERE, THAT REVEAL FOR ANYONE WHAT YOUR "PERSPECTIVE" IS ON THE "MISTAKES" MADE BY YOUR BOARD OF DIRECTORS, AS OUTLINED IN JOHN'S LETTER POSTED HERE ALMOST ONE YEAR AGO!! MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ON THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD, PROVIDE AN EXCELLENT "PLATFORM" FOR YOU TO ENLIGHTEN US AS TO YOUR "PERSPECTIVE" ON THE "ADVERSITY" DETAILED FOR US IN JOHN'S LETTER, AND THE VARIOUS OTHER DOCUMENTS AND LETTERS POSTED HERE AT THE GREASESPOT, IMHO..........BUT, YOUR TOTAL LACK OF RESPONSE FORCES ME TO GUESS THAT, PERHAPS, YOU ARE NOT BUSY "TURNING MISTAKES INTO STEPPING STONES TO SUCCESS"!!....BUT, RATHER, HAVE CHOSEN TO "GIVE UP" TRYING TO SHARE WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, WHAT YOUR "PROPER PERSPECTIVE" IS, CONCERNING THE ADVERSITY YOUR MINISTRY AND ITS BOARD OF DIRECTORS IS FACING!........A COUPLE OF HONEST POSTS FROM YOU WOULD SURE HELP TO ELIMINATE THE GUESSING AND THE WONDERING ABOUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THE CURRENT AND FUTURE COURSE OF YOUR MINISTRY!!......STILL HOPING YOU'LL SHARE YOUR "PERSPECTIVE" WITH US HERE ON YOUR CES/STFI FORUM!!.........THANKS!.............................PEACE.
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Tom Strange
tick... tick... tick...
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO ONCE MORE, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.........ANOTHER VISIT TO YOUR FORUM HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE TO SEE IF YOU'VE POSTED ANYTHING TO GIVE US SOME INSIGHT INTO WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH YOUR MINISTRY THESE DAYS!........BUT, ALAS,.........STILL NOT ONE WORD FROM ANY OF YOU !!..............IS YOUR WILLFUL, PROTRACTED SILENCE, TRULY CHRIST-LIKE AND LOVING??...........
FROM YOUR ARTICLE "THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE: VALUING RIGHT DOCTRINE AND RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS", BY JOHN SCHOENHEIT.............
I think all of us know that we are supposed to be loving. We know we are supposed to be kind to people. Why is it when we settle upon something that we believe and say, “This is what I believe; this is the truth,” that it is so hard for us to be truly kind and compassionate and loving to others and have friends that do not believe like us? I think it has to do with how we hold our doctrine in our heart. We actually elevate our doctrine over love. We elevate our doctrine over our relationship with people. Well, guess who does not do that? How about God?
THIS FORUM, AND THIS THREAD IN PARTICULAR, HAS PROVIDED YOU GUYS WITH AMPLE OPPORTUNITY TO TELL YOUR GREASESPOT FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS,
"THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE; THIS IS THE TRUTH,"............IS IT REALLY THAT "HARD" FOR YOU "TO BE TRULY KIND AND COMPASSIONATE AND LOVING " TO THOSE OF US HERE AT THE GREASESPOT WHO CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOU AND YOUR MINISTRY TO ASK YOU HONEST AND PERTINENT QUESTIONS??........ARE YOU STUCK IN "WE ACTUALLY ELEVATE OUR DOCTRINE OVER LOVE" MODE??........IF, AS YOU PROCLAIM, GOD "DOES NOT DO THAT", WHY THEN WOULD YOU??.........A POST OR TWO FROM ANY OF YOU WOULD SURE BE KIND, LOVING AND COMPASSIONATE TOWARDS US "OTHERS" HERE AT THE SPOT, WOULD IT NOT??.........STILL PATIENTLY HOPING YOU'LL SHARE GOD'S LOVE WITH US BY POSTING SOME ANSWERS HERE FOR US!!.........................PEACE.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!.....HOW ARE YOU GUYS DOIN'?...........STILL HAVE NOT POSTED ANYTHING HERE AT YOUR GREASESPOT FORUM, I SEE!!...............WHEN WILL YOU??...............
FROM YOUR ARTICLE, "THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE: VALUING RIGHT DOCTRINE AND RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS", BY JOHN SCHOENHEIT...........
What I am talking about is something I have seen in myself and in Christianity today. That is sometimes the “truth” that I know, that I think I am sure of in God’s Word, creates in me an intolerance for other Christians and other people in general.
Now, is that not a paradox? What I have discovered here is sometimes the truth that I know, rather than being an engine that drives love in me and produces loving relationships actually drives me from relationships. In other words, because of the truth that I know, I look at other people that do not believe like I believe and I do not bring those people into my heart by truly loving them. For some reason I wrestled with this in my past and to some extent today. Is that not strange? I will say it again, sometimes the “truth” I know rather than being the engine that produces loving relationships drives me from loving relationships.
WHAT IS PARADOXICAL, IS YOUR EGREGIOUS SILENCE HERE, AFTER ALL THE MANY THOUSANDS OF VIEWS OF WHAT YOU CHOSE TO POST HERE EARLIER THIS YEAR!!..........IS THIS THE PROOF OF YOUR "INTOLERANCE FOR OTHER CHRISTIANS AND OTHER PEOPLE IN GENERAL" HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE??......WHAT HAS DRIVEN YOU FROM YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH US??........YOU POSTED SO MUCH HERE EARLIER THIS YEAR, AND NOW, NOTHING??......DOES THE TRUTH YOU KNOW DRIVE YOU FROM THOSE OF US WHO PRESENT YOU WITH HONEST QUESTIONS REGARDING WHAT THE TRUTH YOU BELIEVE TODAY IS??.............STILL WAITING PATIENTLY FOR YOU GUYS TO "LAY SOME TRUTH ON US" HERE AT YOUR FORUM!!..................PEACE.
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excathedra
uh oh leaders don't go there !!!!
(i'm sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt)
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Ham
I wonder.. do these guys think they have all the time in the world.. they have a lot less time than they could possibly imagine.
Such a small amount of time.. to set things right.. to really "get it right" this time around..
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DontWorryBeHappy
GOOD EVENING AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!........ANOTHER DAY GONE BY WITH NO POSTS HERE FROM YOU OR ANYONE FROM YOUR MINISTRY'S "SERVANT/LEADERSHIP"!!........SURELY BY NOW YOU'VE HAD ENOUGH TIME TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING, NO??...........LOOKS LIKE YOUR PROLIFIC WRITING TEAM HAS COME ACROSS SOME FAQ'S THEY'VE DECIDED TO IGNORE!!..........WHY IS THAT??...........
FROM YOUR ARTICLE, "THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE: VALUING RIGHT DOCTRINE AND RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS", BY JOHN SCHOENHEIT........
As I have been reflecting on this lately, I know that nobody has more truth than God. God is the truth. When He had Scripture written, every syllable was true; and yet, I know that God has worked with me when I did not believe the truth on a lot of things. I see when I talk to other ministers and other denominations, that the Lord is working through them and people are getting saved and blessed under their ministries. What is very apparent to me, and I hope to you, is that God is working in them just as He is working in me! What does that tell me? It tells me that God values the relationship more than the truth that they hold.
If what we know is holding us back from being in genuine-fulfilling friendship / relationship with people, then something is wrong with the way we are relating to our doctrine. We are putting our doctrine above the love of people.
AMEN, MR. SCHOENHEIT!!....."GOD VALUES THE RELATIONSHIP MORE THAN THE TRUTH THAT THEY HOLD", BUT APPARENTLY THE MINISTRY YOU'RE PRESIDENT OF DOES NOT!!........"WE ARE PUTTING OUR DOCTRINE ABOVE THE LOVE OF PEOPLE.".....AMEN AGAIN, MR. SCHOENHEIT!!........SO WHY NOT COME DOWN OUT OF YOUR IVORY TOWER OF SILENCE AND ANSWER A FEW OF THE QUESTIONS POSTED HERE ON THE GREASESPOT FORUM PROVIDED YOU??........YOUR MINISTRY USED TO HAVE A FORUM SIMILAR TO THIS ONE AT ONE TIME.......WHAT HAPPENED TO IT??.......LOST THE BALANCE OF TRUTH AND LOVE??........WHAT IS IT THAT YOU GUYS "KNOW" THAT IS "HOLDING" YOU "BACK FROM BEING IN GENUINE-FULLFILLING FRIENDSHIP/RELATIONSHIP" WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS HERE AT THE GREASESPOT CAFE??.......NOT A LARGE ENOUGH VENUE FOR YOU??..........STILL PATIENTLY HOPING THAT YOU'LL FIND US WORTH YOUR TIME AND LOVE TO SHARE SOME OF WHAT YOU KNOW WITH US!!.......................PEACE.
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Belle
:o
Sounds like CES is a "do as I say, not as I do" ministry.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello to all my fellow patrons, and members of the greasespot cafe! Hello to all who visit here to read what the manager of this fine establishment has provided in the many, varied forums on the menu! Hello to all the current and former members of CES/STF who visit here, and/or, are members of the greasespot cafe cyber-community! And, hello, one final time to you, Jeff Blackburn and John Lynn!!
I started this thread just over 2 months ago, as a result of a phone call i received from john lynn in early january, 2007. when john called me, he wanted to fill me in on what was going on with him and CES/STF at the time. he said that, the amount of info was too much for him to cover in one brief phone conversation, so he asked me to come to the greasespot and read everything they (referring to himself and other members of CES/STFI) had posted here, and then, if i did'nt mind, to get back to him and let him know my thoughts regarding it all. as i've explained previously, on this thread, due to more pressing, personal circumstances in my life at that time, i did not get around to reading all the material to which john directed me here, until mid-august, 2007. at that time, after spending 3 weeks reading all the various threads and posts here, in the "CES In Crisis" forum........a forum started by Pawtucket in response to the volume of posts and views concerning all the info posted here about CES/STFI by Captain Crunch initially, and jeff blackburn, john lynn, and other members of CES/STFI...........i called john lynn and asked him for pawtucket's phone number, so that i might ask paw, what, if any, arrangements were made with jeff, john lynn, and CES/STFI, about the forum he provided for them here at the greasespot. Paw was gracious enough to answer all my questions, and then he invited me to become a member here, in order to post my thoughts about all of this right here at the greasespot.
I was a poster at waydale, and i became involved directly with Extwi's lawesuit against TWI and it's then board of trustees, until it was settled out of court by TWI......ultimately leading to martindale's resignation as TWI's president in april, 2001, and, eventually, to his being "let go" by TWI in september, 2001. i was also an early member of the greasespot cafe, but, after extwi's legal victory, and martindale's ignominious departure from TWI, i "retired" from the spot and just lived my life, enjoying my family and professional life. during my time at waydale and the very early days of the greasespot, i was inundated with phone calls, e-mails, visitors, etc., because of my previous "high profile" corps assignment in TWI, and the info i was able to post at waydale. that's why i did not want to start posting again here at the greasespot. i did not want to put myself in the position of being "overwhelmed" with communications and questions again. but, i realized that, because everything john lynn asked me to read was "published" here at the greasespot, the greasespot was really the only "right" place for me to respond to john lynn's initial request! so, i agreed to join and begin posting, if pawtucket did'nt mind me being "anonymous", so as to avoid undo attention (both positive and negative) to my posts, because of the unavoidable "name recognition" my posts might engender. i wanted to be read and treated just like anyone else here at the spot...........and, i still do..........so, i will keep my "handle", Don'tWorryBeHappy, ........and whatever anonymity it affords me..........i sincerely hope, that my decision regarding my "identity", does not offend or bother any of the other members of our greasespot cafe community.
It has been my opinion, that jeff b., john lynn, and the leadership of CES/STFI, have an ethical responsibility to post answers to my initial october 1, 2007 post, on this same thread, here at the greasespot cafe. that is still my opinion tonight. however, that is not the opinion of jeff b., or john lynn. nor is it the opinion of john schoenheit, or dan gallagher. i have spoken personally with john lynn, regarding this thread. at his behest, i have also spoken personally with john schoenheit and dan gallagher about this thread. my conversations with each of them have been amicable, mutually respectful, and, honest. i would still prefer that they speak for themselves here at the greasespot.........but, we have agreed to disagree on that point.........all 3 have, however, agreed to allow me to quote specific parts of our conversations, and, john lynn has agreed to allow me to quote specific parts of a personal e-mail he sent me recently. i have agreed to do so honestly, and, within certain "constraints" forced upon us by the ongoing lawsuits being pursued individually against john lynn, jeff blackburn and dan gallagher by mark and karen ann graeser. they (john l., john s., and dan) each have trusted me to do as i promised, and i will therefore, abide by the terms we have agreed upon. i will not breach or betray that agreement. i hope i have earned the trust of my fellow geasespotters, that i will post the facts pertinent to this thread, as nspoken to me by john s., john l., and dan, within the framework of the constraints we have agreed upon. i have not, as of this writing, spoken with jeff b.
i apologize if i have offended any of my fellow greasespotters with this thread. i have done my best to encourage these men to post for themselves here, but, as i will explain, it is their belief, that they cannot, or should not post here at this time. i will try to bring closure to this thread. i will try my best to spread out this closure over several posts, so as to avoid one long, huge, post that "bores to death" any and all who have an interest in reading the answers given me by them, and, my final conclusions and thoughts regarding those answers. thank you in advance to all of you who may choose to read...........
i will begin with the answers to my questions in post #1 of this thread, as given to me by the 3 people i have personally spoken with. i'll be happy to respond as i can to any questions you may have as we go along............SO,............HERE GOES............
#1) what is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"......
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-----mr. schoenheit believes that STF's current position on "personal prophecy" is biblically and doctrinally accurate, as outlined in their book,
"PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANIFESTATION OF PROPHECY". he freely admitted that "mistakes have been made" in the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of their doctrine, and the practice of personal prophecy by some at the BOD level of STF. he feels the mistakes in practice were the result of a normal learining curve in the proper use of this manifestation, among both the leadership of STF, and the general membership. he likened it to the process of normal human growth and development in areas like learning to walk, talk, read, spell, etc., mistakes are part of the normal growth and learning process, and, though painful at times, are usually "unavoidable" when learning anything "new"........he did not come across as flippant to me, about mistakes made, nor did he seek to avoid discussion of specific mistakes, or necessary corrections. he appears to be quite willing to discuss specifics with anyone who wants to do so with him, and says he would be happy to speak with any STF follower who calls him with with such specifics, and/or questions. i take him at his word. but, i am not a follower of STF, nor do i believe their doctrine concerning "personal prophecy"......thus, i personally have no specifics regarding "personal prophecy" to discuss with him, other than those raised by some of the info posted here, regarding the personal prophecies given to or concerning, elizabeth lynn. he did concede that mistakes were made by various personal prophecy practitioners regarding mrs. lynn, but i did not discuss that at length with him..........nor do i feel that discussing prophecies concerning elizabeth lynn on this thread would be proper for me.....but, as i said, if you would like t do so with mr.schoenheit, he says he will take your call.......so, take him up on it and let us know what happens, if you choose to. john s., did say that STF will continue to teach its doctrine concerning "personal prophecy", and will continue to work on getting "better and better" at the proper practice of it......he also conceded that the term "personal prophecy" does not appear in the bible, but he believes that the practice is obvious in scripture, and used examples like nathan and david, and agabus and paul......again, i personally do not agree that these records, (nor the others he listed rapidly) are indeed, examples of "personal prophecy" in the bible.......but, thats just me.....he did express to me that he thinks there was an "over-reliance" upon the use of "personal prophecy" as practiced by some at the STF BOD level, due to their previous track record of "accuracy", but feels this is being addressed, and will continue to be addressed further in "due time"........i cannot go into further specifics at this time, in this public forum.........
DAN GALLAGHER-------mr. gallagher is currently a defendant in a lawsuit, which restricts both what he can discuss about personal prophecy and what i can post about our discussion concerning the question. he too believes, that the STF doctrine is accurate regarding "personal prophecy", but also feely admits that "mistakes in practice" have been made. he believes that these mistakes must be addressed by STF leadership with their followers, but this has to be put on a "back burner" until various legal issues raised by the lawsuit against him, are settled.......that's all i can post about this at tis time.
JOHN LYNN-------john lynn is also a defendant in a lawsuit, individually, and separately from dan, and jeff b.......they are not "co-defendants".......he is retiscent about discussing much at all, "publically", about the many things posted on the web about his private life......plus, according to john, there are now many constraints upon him because of this lawsuit, that prevent him from being able to "publically" answer or post anything regarding the numerous issues raised by his letter posted hear at the greasespot last december. he too believes that STF doctrine concerning "personal prophecy" is " absolutely biblically accurate", as in outlined in the aforementioned book. he has given me permission to post here, a quote from an e-mail he sent me on 11/25/07, which follows:
"neither john [schoenheit] nor i read Gspot. The Lord knows our hearts, he knows the investment He has made in our ministry due to our faithfulness to hold fast to the truth of the Word, and we count on him to move us through the current situation and open doors for us to share the marvelous truth we are privileged to know. If and when the time comes that we think it is best to address the issue with those involved with STF, we will, but most likely not on Gspot. Very few of our supporters are swayed by anything on GS, and we have seen little fruit from any involvement there."
john lynn is not a current member of the STF BOD. he is a "private citizen", who promotes STF in his "spare time". he teaches often at various STF events and fellowships, and contributes articles and teaching tapes to their magazines and on-line store. he has no "official" leadership role in STF at this time......... as others have quoted him on this thread, he is willing to talk with you personally if you choose to contact him. my questions as posted to him on this thread, still stand. but, due to his current legal situation, that's all i can post at this time.
OKAY!!!................that's enough for tonight!!........more will follow during the next several days..........to all my fellow greasespotters, from the bottom of my heart to yours...................peace.............DWBH.
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Belle
Thank you, DWBH!
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Ham
Thanks DWBH.
Interesting. What I wonder though is.. I didn't think there was exactly a "learning curve" that lasts from late adolescence into late adulthood when it comes to the manifestations.. supposed to be like "easy as falling off a log backwards".Learning curve perhaps, but I wouldn't exactly call it "normal".
It all seems to go back to their little book..
The little book appears to be "untouchable"
Maybe it really is time for all the players in the CES fiasco to turn in their chips..
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Tom Strange
I agree with our bushy tailed rodent friend... if Personal Prophecy were "of God" or "from God" wouldn't it be perfect from the get go? Sorry, this just sounds (so far) like so much babble... but at least it's something. To me (IMO), they're just digging themselves a deeper ditch...
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello to everybody following the "long and winding road" of this thread!.........thanks for your posts, Belle, Mr.Hammeroni, and Tom Strange!.........i agee that the "learning curve" in STF for the "practical application" and operation of "personal prophecy" seems somewhat lengthy.........john s. did make a distinction between what he termed "corporate prophecy" and "personal prophecy".......corporate being a message from or for god to a body or group of believers and personal being just that, personally to a specific individual.......but, one of my problems with the examples of david and nathan, and paul and agabus, being "obvious" examples of " personal prophecy" in the bible is, that both david and paul were not just "average individuals" who were the objects of personal instruction or information from god.......david was the king of israel!.....the situation nathan was prophesying to david about was far more important to the kingdom of israel as a whole, than just a sin david committed in his "personal life"!!.........the ramifications of sin in david's life affected every person in the nation of israel because of david's position as israel's king!.......within the context of that position, david really had no "personal life" that was of no concern to every member of the tribes.......everything he did, said and thought in his heart had an impact on the legitimacy and righteousness of his reign, imho!.....so, god's prophetic reproof to david via nathan was of great import and impact not only to david personally, but also to the entire nation over which he was king.......a nation comprised of god's chosen people!!......david's responsibility, and accountability, was not merely "personal", but rather "national", because of his position as king........so also with paul......paul was god's apostle to the nations!.......his entire life revolved around his calling by god and jesus christ to preach the revelation of jesus christ to the whole world with particular emphasis of lifelong service to the church of the body of christ..his life was "not his own"......if he was wrong about going to jerusalem, it was not just a personal mistake,......it was a mistake that would affect the entire church........as i said, just one of my problems..........
#2) what is your ministry's current position regarding karen ann graeser's understanding and application of the "gift ministry" of a prophet? what have you learned or "unlearned" from mark and karen ann?
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------Mr. schoenheit again referred to the STF book on prophecy, reiterating that he and the rest of the STF BOD believe that, their doctrine regarding the "gift ministry" of a prophet is "biblically sound and accurate". there are, however, "major disagreements" among the current BOD members as to the "practice" of "personal prophecy", and the "gift ministry" of a prophet, as carried out by mrs. graeser during the recent past,.......particularly calendar year 2006. these "disagreements" to date, remain "irreconcilable", and were among the issues that led to the personnel change in the position of president of STF in january, 2007. apparently, it is steve resner and mark graeser who disagree with the rest of the BOD regarding the "practical application" of "personal prophecy" and the "gift ministry" of a prophet in the church as "operated" by mrs. graeser, and others in STF who agree with her "current practice". STF is not currently being sued by the graeser's, nor is john schoenheit. however, john s. and i agreed that, it remains a "possibility" that this could change, since the pursuit of the current lawsuits against jeff b., john lynn, and dan gallagher, is totally the prerogative, and in the "control" of the graeser's, and it is ultimately up to them as to whether or not these lawsuits will continue, and if new lawsuits will be initiated against STF and/or mr. schoenheit. in light of this, john s. and i agreed to suspend any further discussion, at this time, regarding mrs. graeser's practice of "personal prophecy" and her "operation of the gift ministry" of a prophet. john s. did say that, STF will continue to teach what their book declares to be "correct doctrine" concerning the manifestation prophecy, and will continue to encourage STF supporters to "improve" the practical application of this doctrine so as to avoid repeating "mistakes" made in the past, and to eliminate any "over-reliance" upon the use of this manifestation, and/or the "gift ministry" of a prophet.
DAN GALLAGHER-------dan is very limited as to what he can discuss about anything involving the graeser's, due to their current ongoing lawsuit against him. he feels strongly that, once the lawsuit is settled, and the legal boundaries regarding what he may state publicly are established, he will freely discuss whatever he is allowed to with anyone who has "questions or concerns". dan and i also agreed that, the ultimate "control" of the status of the current lawsuit against him rests with the graeser's, and whatever court will have jurisdiction over the case.
JOHNLYNN-------obviously, john lynn's letter of december, 2006, to mark graeser, ( an editterd version of which is posted here at the greasespot cafe), and letters to and from elizabeth lynn posted here at the greasespot, and the "personal prophecies" to and about elizabeth (also posted here at the greaespot), contain a great deal of information about john l's "position" regarding karen ann graeser's "understanding and application of the 'gift ministry' of a prophet". beyond that which is already a matter of "public record" here at the greasespot, john l., under the advice of legal counsel, is not able to discuss anything further, publicly, at this time.
obviously, the lawsuits being pressed by the graeser's against jeff b., john l., and dan g., are putting quite a damper on what these men feel they can discuss publicly about this second question i asked. it really is a shame, imho, that the graeser's have placed their "personal" feelings above STF's responsibility to share all the truths and facts about this crucial issue to their ministry, with the supporters of their ministry!........again, imho, their choice to pursue these lawsuits against their brethren is not faithful to biblical instruction regarding the proper handling of such "doctrinal disputes" between elders and "servant/leaders" in the christian church........seems to me that, each side should just come out and say what they believe the points of disagreement between them are, and then let their followers choose whom they will believe and follow!!........sure would save a lot of everybody's time and money, dontcha think???..........but, again,......that's just me.......
thanks again to all those who have taken the time to read this thread.............question #3 tomorrow.....................peace.
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Sunesis
Well, I guess all I can think of is, its just sad. With all the harm and off the wall prophecies resulting in great hurt, destruction of a marriage, and ultimately lawsuits and other things, how can they still feel this whole personal prophecy thing is right, and godly? Look at the results, or "fruit."
I don't think God will be able to work with them or teach them until they get this wrong teaching/darkness out of their ministry.
After all this, you would think someone would have learned something.
Thanks for sharing DWBH.
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Tom Strange
Great points Sunesis...
My thoughts about this 'second chapter' are pretty much the same as yesterday: "if Personal Prophecy were "of God" or "from God" wouldn't it be perfect from the get go?"
Their answers seem to remain "it is of/from God" (and it's in our book)... so that only leads me to conclude that those who were operating the manifestation/ministry were not doing so "of/from God"... it would kind of shoot "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" all to pieces wouldn't it?
Thanks again DWBH, keep smiling bro...
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Ham
I think that's the "learning curve" JS was referring to..
a curve of destruction.
"well, mistakes were made.."
pretty casual disregard of human life, no?
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Bumpy
And this kind of stuff can get pretty out of hand as well, especially when "All in the Family" starts to $$ splinter!
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071205/D8TBG0DG1.html
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Ham
from your article, Bumpy:
"swarthier"?Thanks.. I finally got what Kesey was alluding to about the cornstarch..
but the parallels are rather interesting. They beat the snot out of each other with prophecies and religious inuendo and some maybe not entirely false accusation, and then they blame the devil for tearing their organization apart? "see, we all gotta band together on the big T truth.. the "truth" itself is at stake here.. we've got the bruises to prove it.."
sheesh.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi to all you Greasespotters out there!!.........hope you're having a good holiday season so far, and getting all that shopping and shipping done!
Thanks for your posts, Sunesis, Strange One, Mr.Hammeroni,and monsieur LeBump!....i re-read some of the letters and "prophecies" posted here on Captain Crunch's original "CES is in a Mess" thread, which was started almost one year ago, on december 16, 2006. i was still shaking my head in disbelief and disgust at the "mistakes" made by the CES/STFI "servant leadership" in their "practical application of the manifestation of prophecy", both corporate and personal. thanks again, Captain Crunch for having the guts to put out all that stuff!......and, thanks to elizabeth lynn for allowing her letters and the "prophecies" given to/about her to be posted. most likely, very little, if anything, would have come to light about how deviant the decision making processes at the CES/STFI BOD level had become.....nor would we have known what questions to ask, or what changes to look for, had we not had the greasespot cafe open and running, to provide a forum for those folks to "spill the beans"!!........thanks Pawtucket, for keeping this place open, and not being afraid to provide new menu items for us customers!
Sunesis.....your post asks the most relevant and poignant questions regarding both the doctrine and the practice of "understanding and utilizing the manifestation of prophecy" as demonstrated by CES/STFI, now simply STF. i agree with the strange one, "great points sunesis"! and, tom strange, your questions are equally poignant and to the point.......mr.ham, and bumpy both find it difficult to accept the oh-so-long "learning curve" of destruction that is still bending and curving its way through the STF fellowships and events around the world!.......me too!
#3)- what do you believe your ministry's responsibility is to your followers regarding an explanation of "what went wrong"? what have you done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice?
JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------mr. schoenheit stated that, he is always more than happy to hear from any STF supporter, anytime, from anywhere, who has specific questions or concerns regarding the beliefs and practices propounded by STF. he stated that his personal "best" way of working with people who have questions, is via phone, or face-to-face conversation. he lives in a rural location where he is limited to dial-up internet access, which makes e-mail communication cumbersome and slow, and he's really not that "accomplished" at internet use. he prefers hearing the voice of the person with all the conversational and inflectional nuance voice communication affords the parties involved. he said he tends to delete e-mails once he's responded to them, so "follow-up" at a later date is usually unavailable since addresses and phone numbers are lost in cyberspace. he did not seem to have a problem talking with me or answering my questions on the phone. he did state that, through the years, there have been small numbers of "disgruntled followers" of CES/STFI who have remained "dissatisfied" with various "positions" taken or not taken by their ministry, and have left the ministry or remain critical of it. but, he feels that "this kind of thing" happens in all "churches or ministries", and is unavoidable when dealing with the public and/or "former followers". if people choose to remain disgruntled, there is really "no response that will satisfy them", but, he's always willing to try and resolve issues with ministry followers/supporters. he did provide a caveat regarding those who are "nasty" or, "obviously just want to argue", saying that he really does not have the time to engage in dialogue with folks who are determined not to really seek resolution or to restore a "right relationship" with CES/STFI/STF. he did state that he would like to "keep in touch" with me if i have any future questions or concerns about STF doctrine or practice. he stated that STF continues to enjoy "tremendous growth" around the world, and that he believes god will continue to bless their ministry and its supporters, as they remain "faithful to the word". as far as what they've done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice, the following specifics were discussed........the "prophetic council" was was disbanded in january, 2007, and there has been no such council in operation at STF throughout calendar year 2007. john said that the "prophetic council" was CES/STFI's response to the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks on the usa. he said, that , following 9/11, various CES/STFI followers from around the country and the world, wrote of "visions" and "dreams" they had experienced of "burning skyscrapers" or "airplanes crashing into buildings", prior to the actual events of 9/11. john said, "i'm not saying that we might have prevented 9/11 from happening, but if we had had a cleainghouse of some sort, to gather and evaluate such "visions", then perhaps we could have at least alerted our followers that our country was in need of fervent prayer, because of imminent threat". so, according to john s., that is the genesis of the CES/STFI "prophetic council". he also stated that this council's "function got out of hand", and was "overly relied upon" because of the previous "prophetic track record" of accuracy of some of its members. it was, therefore, disbanded in january, 2007. there are no plans to re-institute a "prophetic council" at this time. john also stated that, there has been a purposeful "de-emphasis" on the practice of "personal prophecy" by STF, throughout its "events and fellowships", in order to avoid wrong practice and repetition of "any mistakes" made in the use of this manifestation. what the future role of "personal prophecy" in STF, may be is not certain. but, STF will continue to offer its publication on prophecy, and will continue to teach the "right doctrine" contained therein. he also stated that, he does not believe that the greasespot cafe is an appropriate forum for STF to publicly address any previous CES/STFI "problems or mistakes". he feels that STF, through its various "newsletters, magazine and websites", has enough resources of its own to communicate whatever the BOD decides is necessary and proper, whenever it decides to do so.
DAN GALLAGHER-------of the 3 men i spoke with, dan seemed the most eager to publicly address any and all "issues or past mistakes" of CES/STFI. he feels strongly that, STF has a "moral and spiritual responsibility" to do so. he is frustrated that the current lawsuit against him by the graeser's constrains him from being able to handle many of the "specific issues" he feels need to be addressed now. i take dan at his word. and, i too am frustrated by the selfishness (imho) of the graeser's insistence upon pursuing this foolish lawsuit, instead of allowing STF to deal with the many isssues raised by the various CES/STFI practices promoted and in use, while the graeser's and their supporters were "running the show". i believe dan could be and would be doing alot more publicly, were it not for the lawsuit. again, that's just my opinion after talking with dan.
JOHN LYNN-----of the 3 men i spoke with, john l. seems the most retiscent at publicly addressing the "past mistakes" made by CES/STFI. imho, that could be due to the fact that, there are so many "issues" involving john l.'s past with CES/STFI splattered across cyberspace over the last ten years, that, it is just too overwhelming right now for him to handle them all publicly. he re-married elizabeth this past spring, has his SAT prepartion classes to promote and run, and he travels quite a bit, teaching for and promoting STF. since he has no "official" position currently with STF, he has been more "vocal" about the various "issues" raised by the numerous threads regarding the "crisis" at CES/STFI posted here at the greasespot. but, under the advice of legal counsel, he now feels he must "cut back" on his public comments regarding "all of this", because he also is being sued by the graeser's at this time. however, he has granted me permission to post specific parts of his recent (11/25/07) e-mail to me, which may shed some light on his "answer" TO QUESTION #3. JOHN L. feels very strongly that, the greasespot is not an appropriate venue on which he should post anything. despite the posts he himself has made here, or those posted by others containing information written by him, (i.e. his letter to mark graeser of december, 2006), he feels he has borne the brunt of numerous "vicious", "mean-spirited", personal attacks here at the greasespot, and also from e-mails, letters or phonecalls from greasespot members to the address and phone number he posted here. as many of you have read from him before, here at the spot, he does not believe he is responsible to respond to anyone who refuses to use their real name when communicating with him.
quotes from john lynn's e-mail to me, dated 11/25/07:
"I was most blessed to read in your last email that you want to be pro-truth and transparency re: ministries with their roots in TWI. I believe you, and that brings up a lot for me. First, I think you will agree that there was nowhere else on earth that you, I, et al, could have heard the Word we did in TWI. In PFAL, we were in the right place at the right time. The enemy saw the theretofore unparalleled conjunction of biblical truth (TWI was by far the most significant unitarian, dispensational movement we know of since the 1st century church) and young, capable, energetic, and committed men and women like you and me, and he used every means to destroy TWI and its people."
"In the 20+ years since, I think I've had as good a vantage point as anyone from which to view the development of ministries begun by ex-Way folks. Some have abandoned critical elements of the faith (the administrations in Scripture, for one) and gone to planets far, far away. Others have, in my opinion, evolved into pretty much a TWI replica run by decent people who do care about God's people. I cannot say that they love God and people more or less than we do, but I can say that I know no one has more right doctrine to offer than we do."
"On the practical side, DWBH, I sure hope you know me well enough to know that I would not be a part of anything that was in any way abusive, dishonest, clandestine, or in any way ungodly, and I think you may know JS well enough also. If not, trust me, he would not countenance anything like that either. Nor would Dan Gallagher, and that is why they stood against the ---------- when they realized what was going on. I believe we are without guile."
"Furthermore, we long ago realized the privilege that was ours to hear the Word as it hasn't been taught since the first century, and we have not taken lightly our responsibility to steward it, build upon it, and make it known. We also saw what happened in TWI and are committed not to repeat any of the errors thereof. Our Father has been faithful to help us touch the hearts of thousands of people around the world--and that number is growing exponentially."
"OK, so I put myself in your shoes, given what you said, and I assume that you must still hold to the Word as your bottom line for faith and practice. If so, I think I can make a case that your present "wild card" status isn't serving you if you want to best carry out your commitment to the Body. I don't know what you are accomplishing on Gspot, but I do know that from your current perspective, you have little understanding of what STF is all about. The Word clearly says that each of us is to be closely involved with others of like mind and heart, for the sake of the Lord and the Gospel."
"During the past 20 years, I have heard countless excuses from ex-Way folks as to why they want no part of another "organization," etc. I can understand their pain, but if I am to take the Word seriously, none hold water, biblically speaking, nor will they at the Bema. You know what the Word says about how the Body is to function. I love you, and I'd like to hear why you think the best use of your time is posting on Gspot rather than getting up close and personal with us and seeing if what I say is true. At least then you could be a firsthand witness, one way or the other."
"I don't know if you have read/heard any of what we teach, but why not check it out? Why not call John and/or Dan and get to know their hearts?"
as you all know, despite their refusal to respond here at the greasespot, i have now called john s., dan gallagher, and john l.. i am doing my best to post what they have permited me to post on this thread.........and to do so honestly, objectively and straightforwardly. i am purposely trying to "withhold" my personal, long-considered opinions regarding these reponses until after i have posted these responses here. then, separately, i will post my own thoughts, in light of the phone conversation i had with john lynn in january,2007, so as to avoid any confusion as to who said what, when, etc...........i am doing my best to accurately present the responses they've given me within the framework of my agreeement with these 3 men. i am taking my time because i don't want to screw it up!!............so, thanks to all you wonderful greasespotters for your patience and for taking the time to read this really long thread!!!..............................peace.
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Bumpy
DWBH, I think this is a game you have play with "kid gloves". These guys at CES are all old wounded TWI Vets, playing their next and possibly final act out in the courtrooms of America. Not a place I would want to be "advertising" a Christian ministry!
As a former long distance supporter, there are few things I personally miss, other than the company of good old fashioned brainwashed fellow cult believers opening up song books! Only Kidding!!
IF, corporate America can be used as an example, the cult heads of state have to be removed due to lack of job performance. You can't put this crap out into the public domain, and still spin the weekly Bible CD off in the mail. Credibility is the issue, and too many people (myself included) are tired of hearing the same old tunes.
Once it became a legal issue for the courts, the train left the station. (Did you write the book of love & do you have faith in God above?)
Humpty Dumpty cannot be resurrected with the same characters writing the script! Le Bump
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Tom Strange
Thank you DWBH for taking the time to go through all of this in order to allow information to see the light of day.
Thank you Bumpy for your comments which I also think are spot on!
I've got a lot to comment on in that last post of yours DWBH... right now I only have this to say:
To John S&L - RUBBISH! (translated what comes out of the south end of a north bound bull)
To Dan G. - Thanks for being forthright and not making excuses. I think there are a lot of people who want to hear what you have to say at a later date.
These responses, and especially this one to question number 3, really shine a bright and glaring light on the two Johns...
more later.
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Eyesopen
DWBH, thanks for posting these responses.
I agree with LeBump and Mr. Strange, but I would add this to his list:
To the Graesers-shame on you, for disrupting, misdirecting and confusing your brethren in Christ, and then double shame on you for allowing the courts to settle your dispute. I'm fairly certain that the record in Corinthians does not agree with this practice, just as DWBH has said.
I also have lots to comment on but unfortunately I need to get back to work.
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George Aar
Yes, I know the teaming masses have been waiting with bated breath for me to weigh in on this issue, so here goes.
As reprehensible as I find the actions of STIFFY - and any of the other various and sundry splinters for that matter - I find I have an equal amount of disdain for anyone dumb enough to buy into such nonsense FOR A SECOND TIME!
Unrestrained credulity has its costs. "Decoder ring" theology didn't prove itself out very well with the likes of the conman VP, why in the world would you think his minions have anything more to offer? If you're willing to throw in with the SAME CAST of maladjusted characters, pitching basically the same old snake oil (NEW! IMPROVED!), well, I think you deserve whatever you get.
Good grief, we're in our 40's and 50's now (some in their 60's), Isn't it about time to wake up and smell the DECADE?
So, for those who STILL don't get it, I'll help you out. There IS NO Santa Claus, you really CAN'T start a "zeo-down" real estate empire with the change leftover from your lunch at McDonald's, and there are no long-lost secrets hidden in The Bible that some red-mouthed, mid-west jerkoff has just discovered, and that will change your life markedly for the better if you just study hard enough. Grow up fer Chrissake.
There, I've said it...
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Ham
I was wondering when you would, George..
if this isn't the right place, what venue does he feel is "appropriate"?
I can only think, in his mind, no "public" venue will treat him "nicely". Along with the rest of the higher ups.
If I were him.. I'd still ask myself a few questions..
The Graesers were at least at one time very very close friends.. with him, and the Schoenheits as well.. "committed" to da word of CES as strongly as he was. They were at least once like-minded.
What happened? Where did the "commitment" go, the "friendship"?
friends don't exactly take friends to court, at least LIGHTLY.
It's easy to just blame the devil for something like this. I think it's more along the lines of being in "biblical denial".
I wonder if he's even considered looking at all of this from a "five senses" perspective..
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