31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Was he lifted up?
Then all will be drawn to him.
cman,
My progression was, being very scared of eternal torment............
Learning of God's love for me, no longer worried for myself..............
Through the Way International believing in annihilation of the wicked..........
(this was a merciful annihilation and did not conflict with the Love God.)
Later I studied "Christian Universalism" on the internet and believed this for many years.
Christian Universalism is Bible based.
I was Bible bound(confined) for a good 20 year through this progression.
Today I have shed the religion of Christianity completely.
Through Christianity I learned spirituality and above all the supremacy of love. I learned to love God and most of my fellow humans. I learned to seek first the kingdom of God. All this is good.
I had to shed Christianity because of the duality. God/devil, Heven/Hell, Good/evil.
I have found the teachings of Ernest Holmes "Science of Mind" to be close to what was taught in TWI without the dualism.
Panentheism is a theology/philosophy that covers a lot of ground
(from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (Theós) "god"; "all-in-God") is the theological position that God is immanent within the Universe, but also transcends it. It is distinguished from pantheism, which holds that God is synonymous with the material universe. In panentheism, God is viewed as creator and/or animating force behind the universe, and the source of universal truth. The term is closely associated with the God of Greek philosophy and the Logos in the works of Herakleitos, which pervades the cosmos and whereby all things were made.
Well, more politely, labels are to be used properly, not used as weapons or making a 'them' and 'us'. Separating and dividing people is when they suck imo. To communicate, they are needed sometimes as sirguessalot's link provides many labels that intertwine....loosing the labels and getting some wisdom and understanding.
I don't think man can 'free will' himself salvation.
That's not our call.
Nor do I think man can free will himself out of salvation.
It's coming ready or not.
Free will is a joke imo, as far as this is concerned.
A person didn't will his first birth and can't will the second.
Hey Cman,
and yet we have volition.
We are Spirit.
"Spirit is the power that knows itself".
In every moment we have a choice to live love or to not live love.
Can salvation be lost?
Sure.........remember what it is.....wholeness.
When we make the choice to seperate from our spiritual life and as Paul would say live according to the flesh....... we live according to that which brings spiritual death. When we live according to the Spirit we experience LIFE and PEACE.
The Prodigal Son chose to leave.......and then chose to return...........Volition.
The loving father let the Son do as he chose to do.........live far from him or close.
When the son chose to come home the father said.....Look, my son who was dead he is now alive!
Back the topic........If Christ draws all men to Himself, Christ draws according to man's free choice. It can not be "force all men to me".
Sarah and I met in a twig fellowship back in 1990.
I went off to the gulf war and when I got back we got married.
Sarah and I went through a lot of Spiritual searching as the TWI was falling apart.
We came to the point where we needed more then our collective Spirituality was bringing us.
This is where we where finally released to the "New Thought Movement", not to be confused with "new age".
A core concept in "new thought" is that all humanity has the spark of Divinity. None are left out.
"The renewed mind" to Spiritual Truth, is a core spiritual practice of New thought.
A lot of the practice if New Thought goes with the core concepts of PFAL.
The Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation for example. I like to say the Highest attainable goal in the present moment is love. Living love is what drew most of us to twigs. The love. "God is love". Love manifest, is me living godly, or the Spirit spark in me at one with God's purpose in life.
Cman, as far as "opting out of Dying", I'm not saying that.
Dying is a transition to the next life. There is no death. We all transition. Life never dies, it just moves to another plane of existence.
You can't kill truth. You can't kill Spirit. You can kill the body but the Spirit goes on.............
This body is a temple for the Spirit. This body is a the physical in which the Spiritual is manifest.
As far as knowing what comes after this life...........none of us know what comes next.
Here is the logic that we can assume.
If God is good now and life is good now, the next will be good as well.
God is one. There is no duality with God. God will not change in the next life.
The love and comfort that you get from God in the NOW you will get in the next life.
What we believe makes a big difference in how we life. This why I always said "the first premise of Christianity is 'God loves you'."
When you know that you are loved, you are able to free yourself from self hate. When you know God's love you are able to love as God loves.
I don't worry about the future life for I live in the now with the "I AM" who loves me and is part of me and I of the "I AM".
I think they tried to kill Jesus for saying stuff like that.........you can't kill the truth.
I'm not one to question what folks say is part of their spiritual experience.
They Know what they know, and that is what makes it real for them.
Do I have to beleive that what they say is true for all? No.
Like you said earlier........Believe what you want. That is what we are all doing.
We are believing what we have found to be true through trial and error.
That is why our beleifs change. We learn in time what beleifs lead to life and peace and which ones lead to death and distress............That Paul had a great influence on my own way of thinking spiritual life.
Some never realize (in this life) that they are in control of their destiny through what they decide to believe and what they decide to not believe.
Our believing comes from our souls. Our spirit gives orders our souls. Every thing that pops into our heads is not truth. What pops into our heads must be checked according to the truth that we have learned in our journy. Our Spiritual man, has the ability to purify our soul man, so that our soul and Spirit get on the same page of music....this is called Christ consciousness. "We have the mind of Christ".
Man in his propper state uses his Spiritual birthright, to control where his soul goes in life.
Man that does not renew the mind to Spirit(love, goodness, faith, hope ect), follows his soul wherever his soul may lead.
The body may be bound......in prison, but the soul does not have to be, for the Spiritual man is able to control the soul talk to bring all things back to truth. Truth is never bound.
Things that are not seen.......Spirit, soul......these are the things that create what is seen.......the unseen brings into manifestation what is seen. This is called the creative process.
Spirit and Soul work together for good or for error in every man.
Sharing way more then asked for............Thanks for listening. I'm enjoying our conversation.
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TheEvan
A wise approach to understanding the topic is considering other scriptures.
You'll find numerous verses in support of what you're implying and numerous verses proving it wrong.
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Patrick and Sarah
cman,
My progression was, being very scared of eternal torment............
Learning of God's love for me, no longer worried for myself..............
Through the Way International believing in annihilation of the wicked..........
(this was a merciful annihilation and did not conflict with the Love God.)
Later I studied "Christian Universalism" on the internet and believed this for many years.
Christian Universalism is Bible based.
I was Bible bound(confined) for a good 20 year through this progression.
Today I have shed the religion of Christianity completely.
Through Christianity I learned spirituality and above all the supremacy of love. I learned to love God and most of my fellow humans. I learned to seek first the kingdom of God. All this is good.
I had to shed Christianity because of the duality. God/devil, Heven/Hell, Good/evil.
I have found the teachings of Ernest Holmes "Science of Mind" to be close to what was taught in TWI without the dualism.
Here is a link to the core concepts.
http://cslabq.org/AboutUs/WhatWeBelieve.htm
This the "Spiritual Living Center" I attend.
Peace and have fun
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sirguessalot
to add...
Panentheism is a theology/philosophy that covers a lot of ground
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cman
hmmm the topic, TheEvan, is all?
Or is it whatever we want it to be.
Perhaps one or two verses can spark some thought.
And PRODUCE more verses....Now.
Who made me to differ from another?
Certainly more verses in us.
And yes the duality, P&S, scares many.
Wars and rumors of wars-Us against Them illusion.....
Digging a bit deeper into the heart.
Dark And Light, Night and Day, Heaven and Hell.
When this- that appears as duality becomes one then the eye is single.
I have not called myself a christian for some time.
Though Christ remains. Quite worldwide into the universe.
Of which you may think that I am a 'christian universalist'.
Labels suck.
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Patrick and Sarah
Well, the Christian Universalist believes that through the accomplished work of Jesus Christ the whole creation is "saved".
There is a strong historical backing within Christianity for this belief.
To me it ment that God was truly all powerful and did not have to 'cut his losses' as the ego of man might think.
It also reconciled the wrath of God to being ultimately restorative.
'God resisteth the proud'......Why? Because He loves them. God resists the proud so that they might become humble and find the true grace of God.
God is love.
Lable? Spiritual being, Human being, truth seeker,
Not all lables suck :)
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cman
Well, more politely, labels are to be used properly, not used as weapons or making a 'them' and 'us'. Separating and dividing people is when they suck imo. To communicate, they are needed sometimes as sirguessalot's link provides many labels that intertwine....loosing the labels and getting some wisdom and understanding.
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cman
sheesh...started a conversation and killed it too it seems..lol..
i know we are all busy with stuff, me too, i reckon....
thanks for the links Todd and P&S
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Bramble
Panentheism is a concept often found in the pagan/Wiccan beliefs.
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cman
Putting aside the scripture wars.
One can see a few ideas that keep coming.
That there is something that men can see that others have not yet seen.
This idea is throughout the bible even.
And it is not that anyone has some special powers.
But that there is a special power and something to be seen.
Seen in and around us in multiple ways.
Yet the source, the fountainhead of it, eludes many.
Could argue through a million lives about it.
But I won't, I'll just quit fighting it and let things unfold as they come.
From all these perspectives of different people.
And from what is experienced now which includes the past and present.
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Patrick and Sarah
Hey Cman,
You did not kill the thread.
I had to go to work.
Actually, I am impressed with the restraint here in not throwing Bible verses around.
To me it has been a question of CAN God save all?
Of course..............
Then why whould God not save all?
Free will is often the answer. The other answer has to do with Calvinism and predestination.
Of course if man can free will himself to salvation then why the need for Jesus Christ's sacrifice?
Now here is a way that I have heard it said.
Jesus Chist could have been talking of the Christ consciousness in every man.......If the Christ Power be lifted up, all men will be drawn to this!
Love. When you lift high the highest attainable goal in the present moment, love, all men are drawn to this.
Love never fails.
Remember how attractive "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" is?
The key is the renewed mind. Renewed to love. This is the drawing force that saves the world!
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cman
I don't think man can 'free will' himself salvation.
That's not our call.
Nor do I think man can free will himself out of salvation.
It's coming ready or not.
Free will is a joke imo, as far as this is concerned.
A person didn't will his first birth and can't will the second.
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Patrick and Sarah
Hey Cman,
and yet we have volition.
We are Spirit.
"Spirit is the power that knows itself".
In every moment we have a choice to live love or to not live love.
Can salvation be lost?
Sure.........remember what it is.....wholeness.
When we make the choice to seperate from our spiritual life and as Paul would say live according to the flesh....... we live according to that which brings spiritual death. When we live according to the Spirit we experience LIFE and PEACE.
The Prodigal Son chose to leave.......and then chose to return...........Volition.
The loving father let the Son do as he chose to do.........live far from him or close.
When the son chose to come home the father said.....Look, my son who was dead he is now alive!
Back the topic........If Christ draws all men to Himself, Christ draws according to man's free choice. It can not be "force all men to me".
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cman
Believe what you want to.
It don't matter to me, I'm not in charge.
There is powers greater then you and your will.
Should one choose to live godly in this life, I'm all for it.
The next is not your call.
Though this life now can yield to Christ. Or not.
Afterwards you are not calling the shots as you might think.
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Patrick and Sarah
Hey Cman,
I agree.
We don't have any Idea what the next life will bring......or what is after this life.
That is why this life is the one to be lived for.
Being drawn to Christ in the now.
Being led by Christ in the now.
I have no Idea about the future.
If there is a future life and I have volition now.......I should have volition then as well.
What is truth?
Truth is that which is not bound. Truth is what "makes us free".
There is truth now and as we find it we are set free.
Do we have to seek truth?
No.
It is the bondage that makes us desire the freedom.
God heard their cry and sent Moses.
God heard their cry and sent Jesus.
God hears our Cry and sends Christ who draws us to truth that sets us free.
All men
Just a thought.
Peace
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Mark Sanguinetti
A godly topic. It sounds like I am in agreement with Patrick and Sarah on this one. Is that two people or one?
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cman
Can't say I agree with everything they said.
Don't matter anyway.
I do know for certain you can't opt out of dieing.
No choice, sorry.
Nor are there things you can opt on after.
There was no choice in the first birth.
There is and isn't in the next while we live now.
Afterwards there is more to come, no doubt.
This is what Jesus was saying to Nic.
What those folks should have known.
And I don't think ole Nic was being sarcastic.
Can a man enter into his mothers womb again?
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Patrick and Sarah
Hi Mark,
Patrick and Sarah are two who have become one.
Sarah and I met in a twig fellowship back in 1990.
I went off to the gulf war and when I got back we got married.
Sarah and I went through a lot of Spiritual searching as the TWI was falling apart.
We came to the point where we needed more then our collective Spirituality was bringing us.
This is where we where finally released to the "New Thought Movement", not to be confused with "new age".
A core concept in "new thought" is that all humanity has the spark of Divinity. None are left out.
"The renewed mind" to Spiritual Truth, is a core spiritual practice of New thought.
A lot of the practice if New Thought goes with the core concepts of PFAL.
The Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation for example. I like to say the Highest attainable goal in the present moment is love. Living love is what drew most of us to twigs. The love. "God is love". Love manifest, is me living godly, or the Spirit spark in me at one with God's purpose in life.
Cman, as far as "opting out of Dying", I'm not saying that.
Dying is a transition to the next life. There is no death. We all transition. Life never dies, it just moves to another plane of existence.
You can't kill truth. You can't kill Spirit. You can kill the body but the Spirit goes on.............
This body is a temple for the Spirit. This body is a the physical in which the Spiritual is manifest.
As far as knowing what comes after this life...........none of us know what comes next.
Here is the logic that we can assume.
If God is good now and life is good now, the next will be good as well.
God is one. There is no duality with God. God will not change in the next life.
The love and comfort that you get from God in the NOW you will get in the next life.
What we believe makes a big difference in how we life. This why I always said "the first premise of Christianity is 'God loves you'."
When you know that you are loved, you are able to free yourself from self hate. When you know God's love you are able to love as God loves.
I don't worry about the future life for I live in the now with the "I AM" who loves me and is part of me and I of the "I AM".
I think they tried to kill Jesus for saying stuff like that.........you can't kill the truth.
Patrick
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cman
you can't be certain of that
ever heard of being caught up?
some do know
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Patrick and Sarah
I'll buy that.
I'm not one to question what folks say is part of their spiritual experience.
They Know what they know, and that is what makes it real for them.
Do I have to beleive that what they say is true for all? No.
Like you said earlier........Believe what you want. That is what we are all doing.
We are believing what we have found to be true through trial and error.
That is why our beleifs change. We learn in time what beleifs lead to life and peace and which ones lead to death and distress............That Paul had a great influence on my own way of thinking spiritual life.
Some never realize (in this life) that they are in control of their destiny through what they decide to believe and what they decide to not believe.
Our believing comes from our souls. Our spirit gives orders our souls. Every thing that pops into our heads is not truth. What pops into our heads must be checked according to the truth that we have learned in our journy. Our Spiritual man, has the ability to purify our soul man, so that our soul and Spirit get on the same page of music....this is called Christ consciousness. "We have the mind of Christ".
Man in his propper state uses his Spiritual birthright, to control where his soul goes in life.
Man that does not renew the mind to Spirit(love, goodness, faith, hope ect), follows his soul wherever his soul may lead.
The body may be bound......in prison, but the soul does not have to be, for the Spiritual man is able to control the soul talk to bring all things back to truth. Truth is never bound.
Things that are not seen.......Spirit, soul......these are the things that create what is seen.......the unseen brings into manifestation what is seen. This is called the creative process.
Spirit and Soul work together for good or for error in every man.
Sharing way more then asked for............Thanks for listening. I'm enjoying our conversation.
Patrick
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