I believe that our "agreement", had to do with the word "verbose". Mike has no "Special" treatment. While I disagree with the majority of what he believes doctrinally, I believe he has the right to embrace it. Of course, my recollection of the conversation was that it was between the two of us.
Yes, pawtucket, you're right. It was between the two of us and I let it slip out.
The same human phenomenon happens to me here, when I speak up.
[You get fired, kicked out of a group, and family and friends are told to shun you
because you're serving the devil, when you speak up?
That's typical of what polar bear was talking about.
YOU get people who disagree with the content and style of your posts,
and are asked to keep them to the appropriate forums and threads.
Except to those eager to see the two as the same thing, they don't resemble
each other at all.]
When I speak up about the lack of clothing (accurate memory of the written teaching) that some strut around in here, then I'm subject to the SAME KIND of attacks.
[Actually, you keep getting refuted that you're interpreting the written texts correctly, and keep
forgetting that.
And nobody kicks you from a group and tells your friends and family to shun you.
It's not the same thing. Disagreement =/= shunning and persecution.
Nobody follows you off the GSC to harass you. twi has done that.
Woe is you for not having a popular opinion!
Cry me a river.]
I question the integrity of your complaint, polar bear, because I don't see you huffing and puffing when I'm attacked thusly.
[since there's no connection-and you're not "attacked", let alone "thusly", there's no problem
with the integrity of polar bear's complaint or anyone else's complaint about twi
going after people and punishing them for asking questions.]
It's not just you, though. There are some who decry the lack of speaking up BACK THEN, and then turn right around and try to silence me here. I'm thought of as a problem that needs to be limited.
[You're welcome to post here, have you noticed that?
You're NOT welcome to post at twi-where NOBODY is welcome to post, have you noticed that?
We disagree with you- which is hardly "silencing" you.
Even though you're hallucinating some connection to polar bear's legitimate topic
about twi suppressing thought and discussion.
That you can even post, claiming you're being suppressed,
shows you're not being suppressed.
If you WERE, you wouldn't be able to post about it.
See how simple that is?
Of course you don't.]
I see blindness in many posters here, as they repeat the same human errors here as they did back then, like ganging up on the unpopular idea people, and totally ignoring their input.
[We considered your "input", and concluded it makes very little sense AT BEST,
and lacks understanding at many levels. That's not "ignoring".
Furthermore, we've considered MANY unpopular ideas here, and they all got a fair
hearing. People have been free to consider, ask questions, and draw their own
conclusions. In some cases, they rejected them as unsound. In other cases,
they accepted them as sound.
In your case, it's been rejected as unsound, and your response has been to
claim the grapes were sour after all and that's why you don't want any.]
Well, there it is, ALREADY, the charge of derailing.
[Watch as he claims he's getting the charg of derailing,
and then attempts to derail the thread in the same post....
(snip)
***
NOR is it the case that I simply (as you put it) “promote your personal agenda here at greasespot...”
What I have to offer is not my personal impressions, but the actual record: book, magazine, and tape. It’s not simply my personal agenda, but a SPEAKING UP that we need to look at the actual history, the facts of what we were taught, and not trust our HUMAN memories so much.
***
[And thus begins the attemped Mike-ification of polar bear's thread, pretty early on
page 1, even.]
You wrote: “I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike.”
I expect to be able to discuss it with those who believe in free speech, and want to discuss ideas and not personalities. I expect people with integrity.
[Actually, when offered that, Mike complained because reasonable,
rational posters paid attention and refuted him on every point,
which he also interpreted often as refuting THEM.
So, what Mike's complaining about is not the ability to DISCUSS-which
he has-
but the ability to HAVE HIS POSITIONS EMBRACED-
which he can't enforce.
Woe betide Mike for being disagreed with!
He's just like Nelson Mandela, who was put in jail for being a political dissident!
]
And, jut to set the record straight, I am NOT promoting a doctrine like the one that placed you in spiritual bondage. I have fought against the TVTs (Twi Verbal Doctrines) here bigtime. It was the TVTs that brought the darkness, not the written doctrines.
[You're promoting a NEW doctrine, which has been concluded to be
inconsistent, unnecessary, and not based on anything sensible.
Hm, it's not completely dissimilar to the doctrines that afflicted us
before after all....Never noticed that before...]
***
So, I speak up, that we need to see that the same human errors in emotional thinking are taking place here in some, just like before.
I speak up, that we did not get it right. We failed to absorb much of the written teaching, forgot another huge portion, and added in a lot of garbage, resulting in the TVT bondage that you and others STILL seem to be overly sensitive to. Get a grip. The books are pure.
[That is your OPINION. Your OPINION has been considered, your evidence has been
examined. Both have been found wanting.
But you're welcome to hang out and participate here anyway.
You're even permitted to use that welcome to spit on the welcome and complain
about your ability to post here.
It's silly and senseless, but you're permitted to do that to a point.
(ALL speech has limits, including mine and yours.)]
Dear Mike-It sounds like you are doing the attacking not me. I have don't have a lot of time and have never heard of you being attacked. If you need help you can always ask for it and I would be glad to help you. I have nothing against you. But I am not going to defend what I said. I believe it stands on it's own.
Aside from this the point of my post was that the leadership of twi were doing things contrary to the Word by their actions.
They didn't want to change and they would annialate anyone who got in their way. They defienately had an evil agenda.
Oldies-there is not point in bringing up the gory details. The idea I was trying to get across that no matter what anyone said the twi leadership were not going to change and they had enforcers to make sure no one could question them. No harm in you asking though. Thanks
You were correct,
and this was a good idea for a thread, a pair of silly posters notwithstanding.
Too bad you can't expect more civility from supposed fellow Christians, but there you go.
What went on in TWI went beyond simple disagreement. There was something wrong with you if you suggested that the leaders were wrong.
Oldies-there is not point in bringing up the gory details. The idea I was trying to get across that no matter what anyone said the twi leadership were not going to change and they had enforcers to make sure no one could question them. No harm in you asking though. Thanks
In the respectful tone of Oldies' request and your reply, I must disagree aout there not being a point in telling more. It could only serve to illustrate "the idea you were trying to get across". Now, if there are personal reasons for not giving any details of how you tried to bring up what was wrong and how you were rebuffed, that's another thing. But contrary to what some think, ther are those of us who left (or were yanked) a long time ago, did not see or experience a lot of the bad, and who are genuinely interested in knowing more about what happened.
When demanding more, many times rather than the innocent request for more information for a clearer illustration, it is simply an ongoing attempt to discredit a poster and derail a thread.
Nobody owes anyone any more information than they are willing to give.
It`s a sneaky way of inferring that one is a liar.
WashingtonWeather...THAT was a gutsy thing to do. I admire any of you who stood up when things were wrong and tried to fix them. Being the koolaid drinker that I was, I never did...I believed that it was evil not to follow every order no matter how insane...that to disobey, I would lose God`s protection.
Any who had the courage to stand up...have my respect. It was a frightening thing to do...to go against our teachings, to God`s ministry, his leaders, to risk everything to stand up for what was right. whew.
Don`tworrybehappy, Thanks for taking the time to share that information. That kind of shoots a hole in mike`s verbal tradition verses the written doctrine.
It has been long suspected that rths was simply a minimally changed copy of stiles book.
When demanding more, many times rather than the innocent request for more information for a clearer illustration, it is simply an ongoing attempt to discredit a poster and derail a thread.
Nobody owes anyone any more information than they are willing to give.
It`s a sneaky way of inferring that one is a liar.
That's the way I see it, too, Rascal. ESPECIALLY given the reputation of the person asking for details. <_<
The guy even stated that the reason for asking is to be able to better "judge" the situation. I don't know who promoted him to judge and jury, but I have a feeling Polar Bear wasn't asking to go before a court when he started the thread. Sounds like those asking for details are maybe a bit too full of themselves.
AND, it doesn't matter - perception is everything. They perceive TWI to have been a perfect place where people were treated properly according to the scriptures - no amount of details is going to change that.
Those who have had the same experience already know the feeling, the experience, the perception and have their own stories to share. They don't need details.
Donna Randall was the real "ghostwriter" of all vic's books up until jcop.......she was vic's personal and research secretary for many years up until certain events that led to her resignation during the AC '79 in athens, oh..........a not-so-auspicious event buried in the busyness of twi times back then!.........donna would type out whatever recorded teachings or meetings vic wanted to make a book or article out of.....and she would actually edit them and put them in a readable written form for him.......then he would review what donna had transcribed and editted......maybe get the research team together (cummins, bernita jess, donna herself, and various "understudies" from the in-rez corps of the aforementioned, along with assorted other invited guests......ALWAYS having every such session taped).....
and discuss, review, research, "debate" the verses or topics....and then have donna "put together" the final product..........for one final review.
Even vic's account of how he "locked himself in a hotel room in van wert for a week "in order to "put together" the first "holy spirit book"...(RTHST)....is pure HYPERBOLE!..........all he actually did was lay out j.e.stiles' book page by page and then have rhoda becker (his church secretary back then).....type out each page of vic's "book" with some minor changes which he DICTATED TO HER ......and then put it in the old printing press!..........i have acually laid out photocopies of stiles' book page by page next to photocopies of the first edition of RTHST........have you mike??.....if you have, then you know that they are almost identical from start to finish!!.......that's why there were so many subsequent editions of RTHST..... (7 by the time i left twi)......because when vic had donna's expertise available to him, he quickly dumped rhoda for the new and vastly improved model!!.......once this "writing" process was complete, after final edit and review by the research team, american christian press put out the final product!
This , in a nutshell, is the process, "the actual history, the facts"....."of the written teaching" which you seem to place so much credence in, mike........if you choose to hold vic's "written works" in the same esteem as you hold the bible, that's fine!.........your choice!.......but please be advised......VIC DID NOT WRITE ANY OF HIS BOOKS!!.......he basically dictated them all by the process i just described.
Thanks, Don!! Soooo....... Donna and others have been very much aware of the plaigarism and even CONTRIBUTED to it for all these years. Velly, velly intellesting.
We have Donna covering up sex, lies and videotape so that more lives could get ruined - Dottie Moynihan covering up a multitude of rapes so that more lives could get ruined, Dotsie keeping her mouth shut.... and we have this whole conspiracy to "market" and present the vicster as some scholar knowing full well that he was full of sh1t.
If those people had spoken up - refused to go along with the deception - fought back instead of playing the Emporer's game and complimenting his clothes - TWI might have been closed down by the time I got involved in the 90's. Yeah, that chaps my arse.
Well in the past, I have been made very uncomfortable with ongoing requests for names of people and specifics of situations that I wasn`t at liberty to give....so maybe I am feeling a smidge defensive here.
You are faced with the dilemna of being suspected as a liar or betraying a confidence entrusted to you.
Imo... it is enough to say that it happened. It isn`t my job to convince anybody by providing details to satisfy someones curiosity.
Dear Lifted Up-In response to your request. I don't want to rehash the gory details because it will bring up garbage that I have since moved on from. However you can find many examples of mistreatment in the "my story" threads.
Thanks DWBH-Your insight is always appreciated. Great post-that is worthy of a thread on it's own. We're not worthy.LOL.
WW-Thanks for your imput, you have as always a very unbiased and logical viewpoint.
Mike.........hoping this little tidbit of info helps you to put to rest your pfal worship doctrine.
I am assuming that when you say "the written teaching", you are referring to the writings of vpw,....i.e., his books, way mag articles, studies in abundant living, etc.......unfortunately, you may not be aware of the FACT that vp wierwille was at best a very poor writer with very poor writing skills..........he told this to me personally during a visit we made to his alma mater in sheboygan, WI in the fall of 1973.....vic, dotsie and some of us early way productions folks (feel free to contact dean, richie d., claudettee and ken mc.,...who were also there)... were attending the homecoming football game and he said to me, "i was never a good writer. teaching people live is my strength. i thank god for tape son! (laughs)".......mike.....NOT ONE OF VP'S "WRITTEN WORKS" WAS EVER WRITTEN DOWN BY VP!!........rather, they all started out as the written works of others.......( j.e. stiles, b.g. leonard, bullinger, etc.)...........or as transcripts made of teachings or other live presentations vic gave at various times and locations.....as you may or may not know,.....tape was ALWAYS running whenever and wherever "the teacher" spoke unles he gave orders to "cut the tape").........he told us in sheboygan that he "lacked the mental discipline" he needed to write effectually........this mental "laziness" dates all the way back to the days of the chimes hour youth caravan broadcasts ..(which were recorded......some later transcribed).
Donna Randall was the real "ghostwriter" of all vic's books up until jcop.......
Thanks PB.......for this topic. They can't silence us any longer.
At least, here at GS.........we all have a voice, eh?
Personally -- I think this to be as civil of a reply as one could hope to expect for.
I agree on PB's posts on this thread, David. Maybe it was too civil, though...I refer to PB's response to Oldies you quoted, "No harm in you asking, though. Thanks."
Yeah Mike. If Paw or the moderators told us that you were possessed or crazy and that we couldn't post in Greasespot if we agreed with you, you'd have a point. As it happens, everyone who does believe you're possessed or crazy made that conclusion himself, based on the evidence at hand.
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Mike
Yes, pawtucket, you're right. It was between the two of us and I let it slip out.
I apologize.
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WordWolf
[You get fired, kicked out of a group, and family and friends are told to shun you
because you're serving the devil, when you speak up?
That's typical of what polar bear was talking about.
YOU get people who disagree with the content and style of your posts,
and are asked to keep them to the appropriate forums and threads.
Except to those eager to see the two as the same thing, they don't resemble
each other at all.]
[Actually, you keep getting refuted that you're interpreting the written texts correctly, and keepforgetting that.
And nobody kicks you from a group and tells your friends and family to shun you.
It's not the same thing. Disagreement =/= shunning and persecution.
Nobody follows you off the GSC to harass you. twi has done that.
Woe is you for not having a popular opinion!
Cry me a river.]
[since there's no connection-and you're not "attacked", let alone "thusly", there's no problem
with the integrity of polar bear's complaint or anyone else's complaint about twi
going after people and punishing them for asking questions.]
[You're welcome to post here, have you noticed that?You're NOT welcome to post at twi-where NOBODY is welcome to post, have you noticed that?
We disagree with you- which is hardly "silencing" you.
Even though you're hallucinating some connection to polar bear's legitimate topic
about twi suppressing thought and discussion.
That you can even post, claiming you're being suppressed,
shows you're not being suppressed.
If you WERE, you wouldn't be able to post about it.
See how simple that is?
Of course you don't.]
[We considered your "input", and concluded it makes very little sense AT BEST,
and lacks understanding at many levels. That's not "ignoring".
Furthermore, we've considered MANY unpopular ideas here, and they all got a fair
hearing. People have been free to consider, ask questions, and draw their own
conclusions. In some cases, they rejected them as unsound. In other cases,
they accepted them as sound.
In your case, it's been rejected as unsound, and your response has been to
claim the grapes were sour after all and that's why you don't want any.]
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WordWolf
[Watch as he claims he's getting the charg of derailing,
and then attempts to derail the thread in the same post....
[And thus begins the attemped Mike-ification of polar bear's thread, pretty early onpage 1, even.]
[Actually, when offered that, Mike complained because reasonable,
rational posters paid attention and refuted him on every point,
which he also interpreted often as refuting THEM.
So, what Mike's complaining about is not the ability to DISCUSS-which
he has-
but the ability to HAVE HIS POSITIONS EMBRACED-
which he can't enforce.
Woe betide Mike for being disagreed with!
He's just like Nelson Mandela, who was put in jail for being a political dissident!
]
[You're promoting a NEW doctrine, which has been concluded to beinconsistent, unnecessary, and not based on anything sensible.
Hm, it's not completely dissimilar to the doctrines that afflicted us
before after all....Never noticed that before...]
***
[That is your OPINION. Your OPINION has been considered, your evidence has been
examined. Both have been found wanting.
But you're welcome to hang out and participate here anyway.
You're even permitted to use that welcome to spit on the welcome and complain
about your ability to post here.
It's silly and senseless, but you're permitted to do that to a point.
(ALL speech has limits, including mine and yours.)]
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WordWolf
You were correct,
and this was a good idea for a thread, a pair of silly posters notwithstanding.
Too bad you can't expect more civility from supposed fellow Christians, but there you go.
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Lifted Up
In the respectful tone of Oldies' request and your reply, I must disagree aout there not being a point in telling more. It could only serve to illustrate "the idea you were trying to get across". Now, if there are personal reasons for not giving any details of how you tried to bring up what was wrong and how you were rebuffed, that's another thing. But contrary to what some think, ther are those of us who left (or were yanked) a long time ago, did not see or experience a lot of the bad, and who are genuinely interested in knowing more about what happened.
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rascal
I disagree with your disagreement.
When demanding more, many times rather than the innocent request for more information for a clearer illustration, it is simply an ongoing attempt to discredit a poster and derail a thread.
Nobody owes anyone any more information than they are willing to give.
It`s a sneaky way of inferring that one is a liar.
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rascal
WashingtonWeather...THAT was a gutsy thing to do. I admire any of you who stood up when things were wrong and tried to fix them. Being the koolaid drinker that I was, I never did...I believed that it was evil not to follow every order no matter how insane...that to disobey, I would lose God`s protection.
Any who had the courage to stand up...have my respect. It was a frightening thing to do...to go against our teachings, to God`s ministry, his leaders, to risk everything to stand up for what was right. whew.
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rascal
Don`tworrybehappy, Thanks for taking the time to share that information. That kind of shoots a hole in mike`s verbal tradition verses the written doctrine.
It has been long suspected that rths was simply a minimally changed copy of stiles book.
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Belle
That's the way I see it, too, Rascal.
ESPECIALLY given the reputation of the person asking for details. <_<
The guy even stated that the reason for asking is to be able to better "judge" the situation. I don't know who promoted him to judge and jury, but I have a feeling Polar Bear wasn't asking to go before a court when he started the thread. Sounds like those asking for details are maybe a bit too full of themselves.
AND, it doesn't matter - perception is everything. They perceive TWI to have been a perfect place where people were treated properly according to the scriptures - no amount of details is going to change that.
Those who have had the same experience already know the feeling, the experience, the perception and have their own stories to share. They don't need details.
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Belle
Thanks, Don!!
Soooo....... Donna and others have been very much aware of the plaigarism and even CONTRIBUTED to it for all these years. Velly, velly intellesting.
We have Donna covering up sex, lies and videotape so that more lives could get ruined - Dottie Moynihan covering up a multitude of rapes so that more lives could get ruined, Dotsie keeping her mouth shut.... and we have this whole conspiracy to "market" and present the vicster as some scholar knowing full well that he was full of sh1t.
If those people had spoken up - refused to go along with the deception - fought back instead of playing the Emporer's game and complimenting his clothes - TWI might have been closed down by the time I got involved in the 90's. Yeah, that chaps my arse.
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rascal
Well in the past, I have been made very uncomfortable with ongoing requests for names of people and specifics of situations that I wasn`t at liberty to give....so maybe I am feeling a smidge defensive here.
You are faced with the dilemna of being suspected as a liar or betraying a confidence entrusted to you.
Imo... it is enough to say that it happened. It isn`t my job to convince anybody by providing details to satisfy someones curiosity.
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polar bear
Dear Lifted Up-In response to your request. I don't want to rehash the gory details because it will bring up garbage that I have since moved on from. However you can find many examples of mistreatment in the "my story" threads.
Thanks DWBH-Your insight is always appreciated. Great post-that is worthy of a thread on it's own. We're not worthy.LOL.
WW-Thanks for your imput, you have as always a very unbiased and logical viewpoint.
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skyrider
Mike.........hoping this little tidbit of info helps you to put to rest your pfal worship doctrine.
Thanks PB.......for this topic. They can't silence us any longer.
At least, here at GS.........we all have a voice, eh?
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Lifted Up
I agree on PB's posts on this thread, David. Maybe it was too civil, though...I refer to PB's response to Oldies you quoted, "No harm in you asking, though. Thanks."
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GeorgeStGeorge
Yeah Mike. If Paw or the moderators told us that you were possessed or crazy and that we couldn't post in Greasespot if we agreed with you, you'd have a point. As it happens, everyone who does believe you're possessed or crazy made that conclusion himself, based on the evidence at hand.
George
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