I empathize with your post a lot. For a long long time I agreed with the hypocrites that I was a leper, unworthy of inhaling oxygen on this planet, sure to be condemned to the mists of outer darkness.
But you know, that was 7 years ago, and I'm starting to pull out of it, though I do have "flashbacks" if you will when people I meet exhibit certain attitudes. At least I can get hacked off at them.
I am very very cautious around church people, including my own church. When it was decided, this being a baby church, that it was time to have members, my husband was all for it (he has pretty much left the past behind him). I was the last one of the church plant group to turn in a form. I had to think about it and think about it, and I'm still not sure I really wanted to or just caved in to others' expectations.
The farther away from TWI I get the more independent I get. Makes for some friction sometimes, but as Old Blue Eyes (I think) sang "I gotta be me!"
The same human phenomenon happens to me here, when I speak up.
When I speak up about the lack of clothing (accurate memory of the written teaching) that some strut around in here, then I'm subject to the SAME KIND of attacks.
I question the integrity of your complaint, polar bear, because I don't see you huffing and puffing when I'm attacked thusly.
It's not just you, though. There are some who decry the lack of speaking up BACK THEN, and then turn right around and try to silence me here. I'm thought of as a problem that needs to be limited.
I see blindness in many posters here, as they repeat the same human errors here as they did back then, like ganging up on the unpopular idea people, and totally ignoring their input.
I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike.
That isn`t even isn`t the same ball park with what polar bear is talking about....
We fought too hard for our freedom, we have come way too far in our healing and understanding for pfal to hold any appeal friend.
I personally think that you are given quite a bit of leeway and freedom to promote your personal agenda her at greasespot...and think that it is mighty silly, not to mention thankless for you to whine about persecution simply because your attempts are not well recieved...
Polar bear, I wish that I had been couragious enough to have spoken up :(
I totally believed that the lack was in my spirituality and understanding....that if I could JUST get all of the physical details into alignment, that the spiritual would follow.
What a crock, we were just taught how to ignore the egregious error, and continue to support those perpetrating the evil.
Probably many of those who "lacked spiritual understanding" were a sight further on in understanding and meekness to what the Word really says, than those doing the beating up. The bullies were/are all puffed-up with their understanding of the WORDS of the Word, not the meaning of the words.
Too busy admiring the cloth to consider that it should have been turned into clothing to be worn.
I tried to speak up about what I saw in the ministry. I do and always will love God and I thought I could help to change things.
Well it turned out the "Emperor" didn't want things changed and had his so called "protectors" around him at all times who backed him up blindly and who had no remorse for any of their actions.
I was identifed as a troublemaker. I was the one causing the problem. I was the one on trial. There were no problems with the ministry.
Wasn't "blind faith" condemned by the ministry when it concerned other groups. What hypocracy.
I was compelled to place complete allegience to the commander or else be banished into a spiritual wasteland (as I was taught).
I was treated like I had leprosy.
Well that was it. I was gone.
Now I realize it was the best thing I could have done. It was what woke me up to see the "evil" nature of the whole thing.
Now I'm finished with being in the control of any person. (sorry got to go my wife's making me get off the puter)
Can you share your specific incident(s) with all the details so folks can understand you better? Without specific facts I'm unable to make a judgment about the situation you speak of one way or the other.
Same kinda accusation I heard a limb guy use on a lady who was asking advice about what to do about an old scumbucket in twig that wouldn't keep his hands off of her..
that was back in the "good old days" of der vey, 1976.
I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike.
That isn`t even isn`t the same ball park with what polar bear is talking about....
We fought too hard for our freedom, we have come way too far in our healing and understanding for pfal to hold any appeal friend.
I personally think that you are given quite a bit of leeway and freedom to promote your personal agenda her at greasespot...and think that it is mighty silly, not to mention thankless for you to whine about persecution simply because your attempts are not well recieved...
Rascal,
Well, there it is, ALREADY, the charge of derailing.
You wrote: “That isn`t even isn`t the same ball park with what polar bear is talking about....”
Wanna bet?
Polar bear, like so many others here, often decry activities and procedures that took place back then as wrong... and often with the implication that TWI was inhumanly unique in the implementation of these wrong procedures.
I am pointing out (by questioning the integrity of polar’s challenge) that these were merely HUMAN foibles, and that the EXACT SAME thing happens here, because there are humans here. I am pointing out that polar’s complaint lacks integrity or wholeness because it’s selfish, and polar (along with many others) seems to be poised to NOT address the same problem here. That it lacks depth, is my criticism.
***
You wrote (with my highlighting): “I personally think that you are given quite a bit of leeway and freedom to promote your personal agenda her at greasespot...and think that it is mighty silly, not to mention thankless for you to whine about persecution simply because your attempts are not well recieved...”
Yes, I agree IT WOULD BE silly and thankless of me. I direct my thanks to pawtucket for tolerating all the complaints against me, and striking up an agreement that limits my posting, but DOES ALLOW IT!
To pawtucket I am thankful, but to you and your kind, rascal, I am not.
***
NOR is it a matter of “simply because [my] attempts are not well received...” that I am speaking up now about this human phenomenon. I grieve for you and other grads who so easily blackwash SO MUCH of what they were taught that was good.
***
NOR is it the case that I simply (as you put it) “promote your personal agenda here at greasespot...”
What I have to offer is not my personal impressions, but the actual record: book, magazine, and tape. It’s not simply my personal agenda, but a SPEAKING UP that we need to look at the actual history, the facts of what we were taught, and not trust our HUMAN memories so much.
***
You wrote: “I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike.”
I expect to be able to discuss it with those who believe in free speech, and want to discuss ideas and not personalities. I expect people with integrity.
And, jut to set the record straight, I am NOT promoting a doctrine like the one that placed you in spiritual bondage. I have fought against the TVTs (Twi Verbal Doctrines) here bigtime. It was the TVTs that brought the darkness, not the written doctrines.
***
So, I speak up, that we need to see that the same human errors in emotional thinking are taking place here in some, just like before.
I speak up, that we did not get it right. We failed to absorb much of the written teaching, forgot another huge portion, and added in a lot of garbage, resulting in the TVT bondage that you and others STILL seem to be overly sensitive to. Get a grip. The books are pure.
Mike, you are afforded every courtesy here. I didn`t accuse you of derailing...I accuse you of misapropriately applying polar bears noble attempts to address the evil of twi with your shameless never ending pfal info mercial.
Not in the same ball park, not even close.
Twi didn`t listen because they embraced evil.....
people don`t listen to you because you promote the doctrine that allowed the evil to run rampant.
NOW I charge you with derailing for yet another shameless pfal plug :)
I understand you just fine, Polar Bear - I totally relate!
I don't need any details as I don't intend to make any judgement about the situation. I'm sure you didn't start this thread so that others could judge you but rather to share your experience and discuss it, especially with those who have had similar experiences, perceptions.
I'll tell ya - it's a wonder I wasn't kicked out a long time before I was.
I spoke up several times, even admitted to going - gasp - on the evil internet - was called on the carpet for that one big time.
My ex and I spoke up not a few times about not wanting to be assistant HFCs anymore and were told over and over again that we were desperately needed to help just till "this" passes - and new "this" situations kept coming up and we kept having more and more of our time controlled and manipulated by TWI leaders. Finally, when I let our HFC know exactly how we felt - we were called into a face-melting session and told that we should probably just take a break for a while. I guess it took causing problems to get what we wanted - couldn't get it just by asking for it - geeze - what kind of sense would that make??
When speaking up in person didn't get anything accomplished, I started speaking out on WayDale and then here at the cafe. That caused the Florida Inquisition, in which every single believer in the whole state of Florida was questioned about posting online with the intention of finding out who said insurgent was.
And, well, then there's this letter I sent to someone on staff at hq.....
Mike, you made an agreement to limit your posting? You dirty dawg you. :o :D
Yes, because WHEN I SPEAK UP it rattles so many shallow thinkers' cages that they flood management with complaints. They usually can't address the content of what I say, so they simply cry "foul!"
When I speak up, and say that the posting majority here has no clothes, many shallow thinkers revolt. They want free speech for themselves, but not for anyone who DARES to point out the abject nudity of some here.
Many of you guys (and gals) here are STARK NAKED, and all the while you complement each others' fine apparel.
The very human and inefficient practice of closing eyes to the "emperor's" nakedness is an on-going phenomenon, and not something of the past. By "emperor" here I mean the majority held theory of what went wrong in TWI. I have a different theory, WITH FACTS to back it up, and I speak it up.
Call it an infomercial if you have no ammunition to shoot it down. We were sloppy on doctrine back then and it still goes on today.
Mike, I doubt you "rattle anyone's cage" - although you'd like to flatter yourself and think so.
Your absolute idolitry of PFAL and VPW and your never ending informercial for them, and constant derails of threads, and castigating of anyone who has moved beyond PFAL and VPW are bbbbbboooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggg.
You brought on the posting consequences yourself.
Quit whining about it.
And yes, Polar Bear is talking about something totally different. You're doing an apple to oranges comparison. We all understand what he is saying, maybe you better go back and read his post again.
NOR is it the case that I simply (as you put it) “promote your personal agenda here at greasespot...”
What I have to offer is not my personal impressions, but the actual record: book, magazine, and tape. It’s not simply my personal agenda, but a SPEAKING UP that we need to look at the actual history, the facts of what we were taught, and not trust our HUMAN memories so much.
***
....
Now these be "revisionists" claims you are making, Mike. Yes, you WILL BE persecuted for making those claims, and if you are any kind of true "revisionist" then you should expect this kind of treatment from others. It's like the Holocaust Revisionists who are being persecuted for making their claims. Sounds to me like the same typical "depraived human" responses to the same kind of "revisionist claims."
But at least no one here has beaten you up, broken your jaw, burnt down your house, sent you letter bombs, unjustly hauled you into court, thrown you in jail, etc., etc., etc., much like they have already done to Ernest Zundel and Robert Faurisson for their "denial" of the Holocaust - or have they? Well, it wouldn't surprise me to learn there are some people here who would like to do those kind of things to you, for reasons listed below.
Apparently providing an accurate record and account of TWI and PFAL history doesn't arouse too many people's interests, emotions and outrage (at least to the outside world) as does providing an accurate account and record of the Holocaust - that is, until you start stepping on the toes of those who have a specific agenda and invested interest to protect that you are putting into jeopardy. Frankly speaking, the outside world could care less about TWI and about PFAL historical accuracy. Why is that? Because there's no big $ involved in that, and nobody's pocketbook is in danger like there is when one is protecting the "Holy Blessed Holocaust".
Apparently providing an accurate record and account of TWI and PFAL history doesn't arouse too many people's interests, emotions and outrage (at least to the outside world) as does providing an accurate account and record of the Holocaust - that is, until you start stepping on the toes of those who have a specific agenda and invested interest to protect that you are putting into jeopardy.
And WHAT pray tell would that be...???
Frankly speaking, the outside world could care less about TWI and about PFAL historical accuracy. Why is that? Because there's no big $ involved in that,
The only "big money" in TWI is already in the pockets of those at HQ. <_<
and nobody's pocketbook is in danger like there is when one is protecting the "Holy Blessed Holocaust".
You're mixing threads and subjects... why is that?
I question the integrity of your complaint, polar bear, because I don't see you huffing and puffing when I'm attacked thusly.
Dear Mike-It sounds like you are doing the attacking not me. I have don't have a lot of time and have never heard of you being attacked. If you need help you can always ask for it and I would be glad to help you. I have nothing against you. But I am not going to defend what I said. I believe it stands on it's own.
Aside from this the point of my post was that the leadership of twi were doing things contrary to the Word by their actions.
They didn't want to change and they would annialate anyone who got in their way. They defienately had an evil agenda.
Oldies-there is not point in bringing up the gory details. The idea I was trying to get across that no matter what anyone said the twi leadership were not going to change and they had enforcers to make sure no one could question them. No harm in you asking though. Thanks
I speak up, that we did not get it right. We failed to absorb much of the written teaching, forgot another huge portion, and added in a lot of garbage, resulting in the TVT bondage that you and others STILL seem to be overly sensitive to. Get a grip. The books are pure.
I take it you haven't reviewed an Advanced Class syllabus lately.
Does it qualify as "written teaching"?
You might just want to put the sections on devil spirits to the accuracy "litmus test" before you declare it to be pure.
Yes, PB, I do understand the gist of what you are saying about having to " bite your tongue."
Having to do that and confer with each other in secret, lest we be castigated, is, in part, where my handle "Waysider" comes from.
I am not THE Waysider, I am one of MANY Waysiders.
We(Waysiders) knew we had to speak in private because we saw what happened to those who dared to express concerns that all was not right in the Fellowlaborers program.
We had no idea, though, how wide in scope the problematic concerns were.
We thought it was isolated to our little program.
A couple years after we graduated from the program, one of the guys, who had returned to his home town, spoke out about what he had seen.
Within hours, he had "thugs" at his front door giving him some very stern warnings to keep his opinions to himself.
No, I'm not going to "document" it.
I really don't care if anyone believes it or not.
I know what happened and that's good enough for me.
thanks fort the post polar bear!...........Mike.........hello!......i'm a newbie here, so please forgive me if i am not familiar with all that you have posted here previoulsy.....i certainly don't want to encourage you to have to "rehash" what you may have posted here before, nor do i wish to jeopardize your posting agreement with our venerable host.......so, i will try to limit this post to 2 issues you've raised in this thread so far.
#1)"the lack of clothing (accurate memory of the written teaching)"..........#2)"we need to look at the actual history, the facts of what we were taught"
Most of what i will state here will be firsthand, eyewitness accounts...that is.....i was personally present at the events i may recount here, and am therefore not resorting to "hearsay"..........for accounts pre-dating my actual involvement in twi, i will rely on quotes from those who were there of from information gathered from my many conversations with the former "official historian" of twi, assigned by vp himself.....back in the days when we actually had someone in that position!!
I am assuming that when you say "the written teaching", you are referring to the writings of vpw,....i.e., his books, way mag articles, studies in abundant living, etc.......unfortunately, you may not be aware of the FACT that vp wierwille was at best a very poor writer with very poor writing skills..........he told this to me personally during a visit we made to his alma mater in sheboygan, WI in the fall of 1973.....vic, dotsie and some of us early way productions folks (feel free to contact dean, richie d., claudettee and ken mc.,...who were also there)... were attending the homecoming football game and he said to me, "i was never a good writer. teaching people live is my strength. i thank god for tape son! (laughs)".......mike.....NOT ONE OF VP'S "WRITTEN WORKS" WAS EVER WRITTEN DOWN BY VP!!........rather, they all started out as the written works of others.......( j.e. stiles, b.g. leonard, bullinger, etc.)...........or as transcripts made of teachings or other live presentations vic gave at various times and locations.....as you may or may not know,.....tape was ALWAYS running whenever and wherever "the teacher" spoke unles he gave orders to "cut the tape").........he told us in sheboygan that he "lacked the mental discipline" he needed to write effectually........this mental "laziness" dates all the way back to the days of the chimes hour youth caravan broadcasts ..(which were recorded......some later transcribed).
Donna Randall was the real "ghostwriter" of all vic's books up until jcop.......she was vic's personal and research secretary for many years up until certain events that led to her resignation during the AC '79 in athens, oh..........a not-so-auspicious event buried in the busyness of twi times back then!.........donna would type out whatever recorded teachings or meetings vic wanted to make a book or article out of.....and she would actually edit them and put them in a readable written form for him.......then he would review what donna had transcribed and editted......maybe get the research team together (cummins, bernita jess, donna herself, and various "understudies" from the in-rez corps of the aforementioned, along with assorted other invited guests......ALWAYS having every such session taped).....
and discuss, review, research, "debate" the verses or topics....and then have donna "put together" the final product..........for one final review.
Donna Randall was quite a scholar in her own right......she taught the early corps' english every week during our first year in rez......everything from basic english grammar and syntax to business writing and communication........she also was adept in koine greek and the use of greek lexical aids to the bible........she co-developed with cummins a class called "research writing and design" which was to form the basis and format of each individual corps member's research project, which was supposed to be a "master's level thesis" prepared by each corps member and required for graduation.
Even vic's account of how he "locked himself in a hotel room in van wert for a week "in order to "put together" the first "holy spirit book"...(RTHST)....is pure HYPERBOLE!..........all he actually did was lay out j.e.stiles' book page by page and then have rhoda becker (his church secretary back then).....type out each page of vic's "book" with some minor changes which he DICTATED TO HER ......and then put it in the old printing press!..........i have acually laid out photocopies of stiles' book page by page next to photocopies of the first edition of RTHST........have you mike??.....if you have, then you know that they are almost identical from start to finish!!.......that's why there were so many subsequent editions of RTHST..... (7 by the time i left twi)......because when vic had donna's expertise available to him, he quickly dumped rhoda for the new and vastly improved model!!.......once this "writing" process was complete, after final edit and review by the research team, american christian press put out the final product!
This , in a nutshell, is the process, "the actual history, the facts"....."of the written teaching" which you seem to place so much credence in, mike........if you choose to hold vic's "written works" in the same esteem as you hold the bible, that's fine!.........your choice!.......but please be advised......VIC DID NOT WRITE ANY OF HIS BOOKS!!.......he basically dictated them all by the process i just described.
this post is already too long!!.....sorry......but rest assured mike and oldiesman........there are plenty more FACTS i can recount for you....... in detail how the research team "wrote" all vic's books......but , perhaps that should be a separate thread.....we've already derailed this one!....sorry pb!!........but, i'll even be willing to tell you who else was there at some of those sessions.....some living some dead......feel free to contact those still living and see if these are the FACTS!!......most are still alive and you can contact them yourself to verify what i've posted here or may yet post in that "thread yet to come".
In the meantime, before you condemn the "clothing" choices of other posters here at the spot.........check your mirror mike.......what fashion statement are you making??.........what clothes are you wearing mike??..........or not wearing??..................peace.
I believe that our "agreement", had to do with the word "verbose". Mike has no "Special" treatment. While I disagree with the majority of what he believes doctrinally, I believe he has the right to embrace it. Of course, my recollection of the conversation was that it was between the two of us.
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Watered Garden
(((((Polar Bear,)))))
I empathize with your post a lot. For a long long time I agreed with the hypocrites that I was a leper, unworthy of inhaling oxygen on this planet, sure to be condemned to the mists of outer darkness.
But you know, that was 7 years ago, and I'm starting to pull out of it, though I do have "flashbacks" if you will when people I meet exhibit certain attitudes. At least I can get hacked off at them.
I am very very cautious around church people, including my own church. When it was decided, this being a baby church, that it was time to have members, my husband was all for it (he has pretty much left the past behind him). I was the last one of the church plant group to turn in a form. I had to think about it and think about it, and I'm still not sure I really wanted to or just caved in to others' expectations.
The farther away from TWI I get the more independent I get. Makes for some friction sometimes, but as Old Blue Eyes (I think) sang "I gotta be me!"
WG
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Mike
The same human phenomenon happens to me here, when I speak up.
When I speak up about the lack of clothing (accurate memory of the written teaching) that some strut around in here, then I'm subject to the SAME KIND of attacks.
I question the integrity of your complaint, polar bear, because I don't see you huffing and puffing when I'm attacked thusly.
It's not just you, though. There are some who decry the lack of speaking up BACK THEN, and then turn right around and try to silence me here. I'm thought of as a problem that needs to be limited.
I see blindness in many posters here, as they repeat the same human errors here as they did back then, like ganging up on the unpopular idea people, and totally ignoring their input.
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Outfield
It always had me curious had we had it sooo right and others had it sooo wrong. I'm still working on that.
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rascal
I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike.
That isn`t even isn`t the same ball park with what polar bear is talking about....
We fought too hard for our freedom, we have come way too far in our healing and understanding for pfal to hold any appeal friend.
I personally think that you are given quite a bit of leeway and freedom to promote your personal agenda her at greasespot...and think that it is mighty silly, not to mention thankless for you to whine about persecution simply because your attempts are not well recieved...
Polar bear, I wish that I had been couragious enough to have spoken up :(
I totally believed that the lack was in my spirituality and understanding....that if I could JUST get all of the physical details into alignment, that the spiritual would follow.
What a crock, we were just taught how to ignore the egregious error, and continue to support those perpetrating the evil.
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Twinky
Two great beating up weapons:
1. You lack spiritual understanding
2. You are not meek to the Word.
Probably many of those who "lacked spiritual understanding" were a sight further on in understanding and meekness to what the Word really says, than those doing the beating up. The bullies were/are all puffed-up with their understanding of the WORDS of the Word, not the meaning of the words.
Too busy admiring the cloth to consider that it should have been turned into clothing to be worn.
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rascal
Ever seeking but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth....kind of fits in there I think Twinky.
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oldiesman
Can you share your specific incident(s) with all the details so folks can understand you better? Without specific facts I'm unable to make a judgment about the situation you speak of one way or the other.
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Ham
Same kinda accusation I heard a limb guy use on a lady who was asking advice about what to do about an old scumbucket in twig that wouldn't keep his hands off of her..
that was back in the "good old days" of der vey, 1976.
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Mike
Rascal,
Well, there it is, ALREADY, the charge of derailing.
You wrote: “That isn`t even isn`t the same ball park with what polar bear is talking about....”
Wanna bet?
Polar bear, like so many others here, often decry activities and procedures that took place back then as wrong... and often with the implication that TWI was inhumanly unique in the implementation of these wrong procedures.
I am pointing out (by questioning the integrity of polar’s challenge) that these were merely HUMAN foibles, and that the EXACT SAME thing happens here, because there are humans here. I am pointing out that polar’s complaint lacks integrity or wholeness because it’s selfish, and polar (along with many others) seems to be poised to NOT address the same problem here. That it lacks depth, is my criticism.
***
You wrote (with my highlighting): “I personally think that you are given quite a bit of leeway and freedom to promote your personal agenda her at greasespot...and think that it is mighty silly, not to mention thankless for you to whine about persecution simply because your attempts are not well recieved...”
Yes, I agree IT WOULD BE silly and thankless of me. I direct my thanks to pawtucket for tolerating all the complaints against me, and striking up an agreement that limits my posting, but DOES ALLOW IT!
To pawtucket I am thankful, but to you and your kind, rascal, I am not.
***
NOR is it a matter of “simply because [my] attempts are not well received...” that I am speaking up now about this human phenomenon. I grieve for you and other grads who so easily blackwash SO MUCH of what they were taught that was good.
***
NOR is it the case that I simply (as you put it) “promote your personal agenda here at greasespot...”
What I have to offer is not my personal impressions, but the actual record: book, magazine, and tape. It’s not simply my personal agenda, but a SPEAKING UP that we need to look at the actual history, the facts of what we were taught, and not trust our HUMAN memories so much.
***
You wrote: “I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike.”
I expect to be able to discuss it with those who believe in free speech, and want to discuss ideas and not personalities. I expect people with integrity.
And, jut to set the record straight, I am NOT promoting a doctrine like the one that placed you in spiritual bondage. I have fought against the TVTs (Twi Verbal Doctrines) here bigtime. It was the TVTs that brought the darkness, not the written doctrines.
***
So, I speak up, that we need to see that the same human errors in emotional thinking are taking place here in some, just like before.
I speak up, that we did not get it right. We failed to absorb much of the written teaching, forgot another huge portion, and added in a lot of garbage, resulting in the TVT bondage that you and others STILL seem to be overly sensitive to. Get a grip. The books are pure.
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rascal
Mike, you are afforded every courtesy here. I didn`t accuse you of derailing...I accuse you of misapropriately applying polar bears noble attempts to address the evil of twi with your shameless never ending pfal info mercial.
Not in the same ball park, not even close.
Twi didn`t listen because they embraced evil.....
people don`t listen to you because you promote the doctrine that allowed the evil to run rampant.
NOW I charge you with derailing for yet another shameless pfal plug :)
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Belle
I understand you just fine, Polar Bear - I totally relate!
I don't need any details as I don't intend to make any judgement about the situation. I'm sure you didn't start this thread so that others could judge you but rather to share your experience and discuss it, especially with those who have had similar experiences, perceptions.
I'll tell ya - it's a wonder I wasn't kicked out a long time before I was.
I spoke up several times, even admitted to going - gasp - on the evil internet - was called on the carpet for that one big time.
My ex and I spoke up not a few times about not wanting to be assistant HFCs anymore and were told over and over again that we were desperately needed to help just till "this" passes - and new "this" situations kept coming up and we kept having more and more of our time controlled and manipulated by TWI leaders.
Finally, when I let our HFC know exactly how we felt - we were called into a face-melting session and told that we should probably just take a break for a while. 
I guess it took causing problems to get what we wanted - couldn't get it just by asking for it - geeze - what kind of sense would that make??
When speaking up in person didn't get anything accomplished, I started speaking out on WayDale and then here at the cafe. That caused the Florida Inquisition, in which every single believer in the whole state of Florida was questioned about posting online with the intention of finding out who said insurgent was.
And, well, then there's this letter I sent to someone on staff at hq.....
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washingtonweather
When we got a hold of teh lawsuit papers posted on waydale, we sent every family in New Mexico a set of copies out of our pocket.
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oldiesman
Mike, you made an agreement to limit your posting? You dirty dawg you. :o :D
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Mike
Yes, because WHEN I SPEAK UP it rattles so many shallow thinkers' cages that they flood management with complaints. They usually can't address the content of what I say, so they simply cry "foul!"
When I speak up, and say that the posting majority here has no clothes, many shallow thinkers revolt. They want free speech for themselves, but not for anyone who DARES to point out the abject nudity of some here.
Many of you guys (and gals) here are STARK NAKED, and all the while you complement each others' fine apparel.
The very human and inefficient practice of closing eyes to the "emperor's" nakedness is an on-going phenomenon, and not something of the past. By "emperor" here I mean the majority held theory of what went wrong in TWI. I have a different theory, WITH FACTS to back it up, and I speak it up.
Call it an infomercial if you have no ammunition to shoot it down. We were sloppy on doctrine back then and it still goes on today.
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Sunesis
Mike, I doubt you "rattle anyone's cage" - although you'd like to flatter yourself and think so.
Your absolute idolitry of PFAL and VPW and your never ending informercial for them, and constant derails of threads, and castigating of anyone who has moved beyond PFAL and VPW are bbbbbboooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggg.
You brought on the posting consequences yourself.
Quit whining about it.
And yes, Polar Bear is talking about something totally different. You're doing an apple to oranges comparison. We all understand what he is saying, maybe you better go back and read his post again.
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doojable
Ummmm.....
Mike - don't go there...
You've gotten to say your peace PLENTY! There was a thread dedicated to PFAL and you posted plenty...
As I recall, there was another tread before that one that was about the same subject.
Edited to honor Mike's agreement with Paw. I didn't read that post until after I had started this one.
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What The Hey
Now these be "revisionists" claims you are making, Mike. Yes, you WILL BE persecuted for making those claims, and if you are any kind of true "revisionist" then you should expect this kind of treatment from others. It's like the Holocaust Revisionists who are being persecuted for making their claims. Sounds to me like the same typical "depraived human" responses to the same kind of "revisionist claims."
But at least no one here has beaten you up, broken your jaw, burnt down your house, sent you letter bombs, unjustly hauled you into court, thrown you in jail, etc., etc., etc., much like they have already done to Ernest Zundel and Robert Faurisson for their "denial" of the Holocaust - or have they? Well, it wouldn't surprise me to learn there are some people here who would like to do those kind of things to you, for reasons listed below.
Apparently providing an accurate record and account of TWI and PFAL history doesn't arouse too many people's interests, emotions and outrage (at least to the outside world) as does providing an accurate account and record of the Holocaust - that is, until you start stepping on the toes of those who have a specific agenda and invested interest to protect that you are putting into jeopardy. Frankly speaking, the outside world could care less about TWI and about PFAL historical accuracy. Why is that? Because there's no big $ involved in that, and nobody's pocketbook is in danger like there is when one is protecting the "Holy Blessed Holocaust".
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Ham
What do squirrels need with clothes anyway..
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doojable
And WHAT pray tell would that be...???
The only "big money" in TWI is already in the pockets of those at HQ. <_<
You're mixing threads and subjects... why is that?
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polar bear
Dear Mike-It sounds like you are doing the attacking not me. I have don't have a lot of time and have never heard of you being attacked. If you need help you can always ask for it and I would be glad to help you. I have nothing against you. But I am not going to defend what I said. I believe it stands on it's own.
Aside from this the point of my post was that the leadership of twi were doing things contrary to the Word by their actions.
They didn't want to change and they would annialate anyone who got in their way. They defienately had an evil agenda.
Oldies-there is not point in bringing up the gory details. The idea I was trying to get across that no matter what anyone said the twi leadership were not going to change and they had enforcers to make sure no one could question them. No harm in you asking though. Thanks
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waysider
I take it you haven't reviewed an Advanced Class syllabus lately.
Does it qualify as "written teaching"?
You might just want to put the sections on devil spirits to the accuracy "litmus test" before you declare it to be pure.
Yes, PB, I do understand the gist of what you are saying about having to " bite your tongue."
Having to do that and confer with each other in secret, lest we be castigated, is, in part, where my handle "Waysider" comes from.
I am not THE Waysider, I am one of MANY Waysiders.
We(Waysiders) knew we had to speak in private because we saw what happened to those who dared to express concerns that all was not right in the Fellowlaborers program.
We had no idea, though, how wide in scope the problematic concerns were.
We thought it was isolated to our little program.
A couple years after we graduated from the program, one of the guys, who had returned to his home town, spoke out about what he had seen.
Within hours, he had "thugs" at his front door giving him some very stern warnings to keep his opinions to himself.
No, I'm not going to "document" it.
I really don't care if anyone believes it or not.
I know what happened and that's good enough for me.
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Oakspear
What went on in TWI went beyond simple disagreement. There was something wrong with you if you suggested that the leaders were wrong.
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DontWorryBeHappy
thanks fort the post polar bear!...........Mike.........hello!......i'm a newbie here, so please forgive me if i am not familiar with all that you have posted here previoulsy.....i certainly don't want to encourage you to have to "rehash" what you may have posted here before, nor do i wish to jeopardize your posting agreement with our venerable host.......so, i will try to limit this post to 2 issues you've raised in this thread so far.
#1)"the lack of clothing (accurate memory of the written teaching)"..........#2)"we need to look at the actual history, the facts of what we were taught"
Most of what i will state here will be firsthand, eyewitness accounts...that is.....i was personally present at the events i may recount here, and am therefore not resorting to "hearsay"..........for accounts pre-dating my actual involvement in twi, i will rely on quotes from those who were there of from information gathered from my many conversations with the former "official historian" of twi, assigned by vp himself.....back in the days when we actually had someone in that position!!
I am assuming that when you say "the written teaching", you are referring to the writings of vpw,....i.e., his books, way mag articles, studies in abundant living, etc.......unfortunately, you may not be aware of the FACT that vp wierwille was at best a very poor writer with very poor writing skills..........he told this to me personally during a visit we made to his alma mater in sheboygan, WI in the fall of 1973.....vic, dotsie and some of us early way productions folks (feel free to contact dean, richie d., claudettee and ken mc.,...who were also there)... were attending the homecoming football game and he said to me, "i was never a good writer. teaching people live is my strength. i thank god for tape son! (laughs)".......mike.....NOT ONE OF VP'S "WRITTEN WORKS" WAS EVER WRITTEN DOWN BY VP!!........rather, they all started out as the written works of others.......( j.e. stiles, b.g. leonard, bullinger, etc.)...........or as transcripts made of teachings or other live presentations vic gave at various times and locations.....as you may or may not know,.....tape was ALWAYS running whenever and wherever "the teacher" spoke unles he gave orders to "cut the tape").........he told us in sheboygan that he "lacked the mental discipline" he needed to write effectually........this mental "laziness" dates all the way back to the days of the chimes hour youth caravan broadcasts ..(which were recorded......some later transcribed).
Donna Randall was the real "ghostwriter" of all vic's books up until jcop.......she was vic's personal and research secretary for many years up until certain events that led to her resignation during the AC '79 in athens, oh..........a not-so-auspicious event buried in the busyness of twi times back then!.........donna would type out whatever recorded teachings or meetings vic wanted to make a book or article out of.....and she would actually edit them and put them in a readable written form for him.......then he would review what donna had transcribed and editted......maybe get the research team together (cummins, bernita jess, donna herself, and various "understudies" from the in-rez corps of the aforementioned, along with assorted other invited guests......ALWAYS having every such session taped).....
and discuss, review, research, "debate" the verses or topics....and then have donna "put together" the final product..........for one final review.
Donna Randall was quite a scholar in her own right......she taught the early corps' english every week during our first year in rez......everything from basic english grammar and syntax to business writing and communication........she also was adept in koine greek and the use of greek lexical aids to the bible........she co-developed with cummins a class called "research writing and design" which was to form the basis and format of each individual corps member's research project, which was supposed to be a "master's level thesis" prepared by each corps member and required for graduation.
Even vic's account of how he "locked himself in a hotel room in van wert for a week "in order to "put together" the first "holy spirit book"...(RTHST)....is pure HYPERBOLE!..........all he actually did was lay out j.e.stiles' book page by page and then have rhoda becker (his church secretary back then).....type out each page of vic's "book" with some minor changes which he DICTATED TO HER ......and then put it in the old printing press!..........i have acually laid out photocopies of stiles' book page by page next to photocopies of the first edition of RTHST........have you mike??.....if you have, then you know that they are almost identical from start to finish!!.......that's why there were so many subsequent editions of RTHST..... (7 by the time i left twi)......because when vic had donna's expertise available to him, he quickly dumped rhoda for the new and vastly improved model!!.......once this "writing" process was complete, after final edit and review by the research team, american christian press put out the final product!
This , in a nutshell, is the process, "the actual history, the facts"....."of the written teaching" which you seem to place so much credence in, mike........if you choose to hold vic's "written works" in the same esteem as you hold the bible, that's fine!.........your choice!.......but please be advised......VIC DID NOT WRITE ANY OF HIS BOOKS!!.......he basically dictated them all by the process i just described.
this post is already too long!!.....sorry......but rest assured mike and oldiesman........there are plenty more FACTS i can recount for you....... in detail how the research team "wrote" all vic's books......but , perhaps that should be a separate thread.....we've already derailed this one!....sorry pb!!........but, i'll even be willing to tell you who else was there at some of those sessions.....some living some dead......feel free to contact those still living and see if these are the FACTS!!......most are still alive and you can contact them yourself to verify what i've posted here or may yet post in that "thread yet to come".
In the meantime, before you condemn the "clothing" choices of other posters here at the spot.........check your mirror mike.......what fashion statement are you making??.........what clothes are you wearing mike??..........or not wearing??..................peace.
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pawtucket
I believe that our "agreement", had to do with the word "verbose". Mike has no "Special" treatment. While I disagree with the majority of what he believes doctrinally, I believe he has the right to embrace it. Of course, my recollection of the conversation was that it was between the two of us.
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