I dunno, I guess one would have to ask then, what constitutes a stone?
Rape, abortion, forced sexual servitude, humiliation, degredation. intimidation, perpetual hunger...I just don`t see those as legitimate tools to be used in foraging the character and ability to become a minister for God....much less a training program for God`s elite crack troops.
I *thought* my marriage was rock solid and that it was genuinely good but when push came to shove, my ex chose TWI over his commitment to me. It took me five years and a major confrontation for me to realize that if he would choose TWI over me, then it wasn't really the great marriage I thought it was.
On the other hand, Hope and John survived about that many years with Hope being out and John wanting to stay and fix things. John eventually saw through the facade and left TWI as well. They are still happily married and, I believe, John's letter to Rosie & company is on the front page of the cafe.
Each situation is different and there are marriages that survive one spouse leaving TWI, but many, too many, that don't. You've got to do what you you've got to do.
ABSOLUTELY...I agree, the bullying came from the very top, from the very beginning. What I meant was that there were an awfull lot of really good people who did their very best to talk the talk and walk the walk. These were the people most saw, whom most interacted with....
Those were the people who ran the fellowships, who loved the people, who took the bu tt chewings from above...but continued to love, pray for, minister to everyone in their path....those were the people who`s heart was to serve God and take care of his people....
When they started getting fired for not towing the line, when people were told that their fellowships were no longer considered legitimate...when they were cast out and declared mark and avoid....when they were declared suspiscious spiritually and people warned to stay away....the people who were used to replace them...many times were viscious bullies.
The meaner you were, the more face meltings that you could brag about...the more spiritual you were viewed.
Without the strong people to prevent the bullying....the evil from the top was allowed to run unchecked.
I take copenhagen at their word....that they are stuck in twi. I feel terrible for this...knowing how bleak that existance can be.
Ah, yes, I understand what you mean now. I see from so many posts here that after the big exodus of the late 1980s that the system encouraged being meaner and meaner in a lot of ways...
Nothing is worth staying somewhere where you are miserable. But the cost for change is sometimes high.
Please do not take this wrong or as rude or ugly.
My wife is wonderful she knows how I feel she hopes one day I will drink the Koolaide
again and if I dont she will still love me and stay with me. She has for a few years.
I believe her but I have seen the out come time and time again of couples were one is going
and one is not. This is not a chance I will take.
This being said we have our agreement and I know how the twi works.
This subject is closed and not up for discussion or advice please.
The cost is to high.
No offence taken Copenhagen, in the end we all do what we do. I understand, really I do . I have been where you are and I did not like the price to pay either. I wanted a different path out of the wilderness as well, that I was stuck in. It took a teaching from Vince Finnegan to finally make me see, that when I plant tomato seeds in the ground the end result is tomatoes. If one wants cucumbers as the final result one must plant cucumber seeds. Taking a tomato plant and cutting the tomatoes off and gluing cucumbers on it won't work. If one wants to change to cucumbers one must plant cucumber seeds.
If you want to change issues in your heart you must change what seeds are planted there. The deception we all face is thinking that by changing circumstances, situations, or associations, we can change our lives. Sometimes that works in the short term. The truth is the heart is that which must be altered to change our lives. Once I realized that God had provided a way out of the wilderness I had to let go of the choices that kept me sitting there. It was silly to think I could help anyone else when I was just as stuck in the wilderness as they were. If anyone was getting out I had to go for help, down the road provided. That's not to say I did not go kicking and complaining all the way, but when I got honest I knew that it was the right choice no matter the cost. Life in the wilderness was ok, I had a little food ,a little water now and then, like a survivor castaway I had made a home there, but it was a far cry from the life of the old days of fellowship with the Father.
As I said we all have a price we will pay in life, sometimes the cost is too high. I wish you Godspeed down your path.
Dylan once said "I paid the price of solitude, but at least I'm out of debt."
Bear in mind that the corps was a training program, and as such, one would come to expect some bullying from time to time.
Bear in mind that the corps was presented as teaching to apply the Bible and serve God.
As such, one should come to expect bullying to be rare and accidental,
mis-steps by the one who bullied.
This FICTION that the corps was supposed to be some sort of paramilitary organization
where Christians were sent through some sort of Boot Camp and were expected to
be some sort of soldier/athlete Christian is not reflected in anything anyone was
handed before joining, nor part of what they signed, nor in the official comments
made verbally for those interested.
It was supposed to be some sort of Christian education-partly in the classroom,
partly outside the classroom by doing, but an education overall.
That's one reason why the "graduates" got a DIPLOMA at the conclusion.
If the corps was supposed to be some sort of military training,
then it was an INCREDIBLY poor model of one- partly because vpw designed it,
and vpw's knowledge of the military came second-hand AT BEST, and primarily
from movies and television like many of us have seen-
but we at least admit we don't really know about it.
If it HAD been based on some sort of military model- and not a CHRISTIAN EDUCATION model,
(which would have been news to most of the students, especially the Family Corps who
never planned to take their families into military training)
then-at most- the opening few weeks should have been when any high-pressure
activities took place.
However, based on what I've heard from people actually IN the military-
the bullying is seen in MOVIES and possibly when applying for elite units like
Navy Seals, Special Forces, etc, and is not seen in actual training, neither during
a normal tour, nor in boot camp. It's more like Sergeant Hulka in "Stripes"- where
he tells the men they're going to learn how to do everything the army's way, and
he's going to be their instructor. This whole "yell-at-the-trainee" stuff is reserved
for when a trainee does something SPECIFIC and STUPID.
(For example, when a trainee at the firing range stands up, and carelessly points
his rifle at someone, with live ammo in the gun. THAT's worth yelling over- and he
got yelled at over it.)
Movies show sergeants screaming at cadets, calling them worthless,
and commercials show sergeants yelling at length over a small ketchup stain on an undershirt.
That's FICTION, not reality.
However, vpw really didn't seem to have anything more substantial than that
sort of cinematic background when considering additions to the program
that were supposedly "military".
That's CARELESS, and IMPROPER PREPARATION on his part. He should have been
FAR better prepared when proposing a multi-year training program.
If one can't take some bullying, criticism and hard knocks, one may not have the right attitude. "its the stones in the brook that make it sing" ... its all attitude. Not saying that you didn't have that attitude, just commenting...
If one HAS TO "take some bullying" and "hard knocks",
one may not have the right PROGRAM.
Criticism-of PRODUCTIVE KINDS- are healthy parts of ANY training program,
no matter how inconsequential the program.
(Trainees at fast-food restaurants receive constructive criticism as well.)
The disciples were beaten by the religious authorities of their day, and rejoiced
to be counted worthy to suffer in Christ's name. Didn't mean the beatings were
correct. Their attitude was healthy- but they were responding to something
UNhealthy, and UNgodly-but dressed up as something godly.
After all. "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" makes a dandy
rationalization for "I yell because I care" and "I yell because you can take it",
but of those three sayings,
all three are from vpw,
and NONE of the three are FROM SCRIPTURE.
The first one, "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" bears a resemblance
to "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger",
which of course is from Frederich Neitzche,
the same man who said "God is dead."
Neither of those, of course, appear in Scripture, either.
OM... thanks for bringing that up... that "stones in the brook" thing... just another fine example of the indoctrination process of the CULT that we were in that convinced us that "it was good for us" to be subjugated to bullying and abuse... we were in the corps to learn how to become better servants to God and His people... in no way did that require that we be treated like rubbish... you're still a TWI apologist, you always will be.
I dunno, I guess one would have to ask then, what constitutes a stone?
Rape, abortion, forced sexual servitude, humiliation, degredation. intimidation, perpetual hunger...I just don`t see those as legitimate tools to be used in foraging the character and ability to become a minister for God....much less a training program for God`s elite crack troops.
I don't recall ONE incident in Scripture where Jesus Christ, whom VPW purported to represent as The Tupos for the Christian walk, bullied people. Reproved, corrected, probably raised his voice, sure. He said to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" There was undoubtedly a snap in His voice then, but He did NOT say, "Get thee behind me, you worthless piece of S***!" He never made his disciples feel useless and worthless, like VPW and LCM did the WC. I was there. I hated every minute of it. It was only after dismissal from the FWC I began to question my existence and contemplate suicide. It was graduates of the WC that made me think about it more and more.
Jesus restored Peter after Peter denied Him however many times he denied Him. He made a point of restoring Peter. He would never had ascended to heaven before He had restored Peter. Why? Because He loved Peter. He loved His disciples. He cared for them when they were arguing, fearful, being stupid and vacillating.
I'd rather be like Jesus than VPW or LCM.
To say that VPW or LCM represented God is an insult to the Almighty. IMO.
Bear in mind that the corps was a training program, and as such, one would come to expect some bullying from time to time. If one can't take some bullying, criticism and hard knocks, one may not have the right attitude. "its the stones in the brook that make it sing" ... its all attitude. Not saying that you didn't have that attitude, just commenting...
When I signed on to go into fellowlaborers, it was presented as a program that would study the Book Of Acts, both academically and through everyday application. The stated purpose of the program was to prepare us as leaders so we could go back to our home areas and be more effective leaders.
What is it in that representation of the program that would lead one to "expect" they would be subjected to bullying "from time to time" and suggest that it may be one's own fault that it happened due to improper attitude?
My first year there, I don't remember very much unwarranted criticism or bullying, just a lot of anal retentive labor projects and very little personal time. That was when Howie was in charge. Howie was very "laid back" and seemed to have a genuine concern for people. Still, not much academic material was delivered.
My second year, the program changed completely.( New limb leader/FLO coordinator)It became a seemingly non stop series of bullying and belittlement.(virtually NO academic material delivered.)
The product that was delivered did not even resemble the product that was advertised.
That had nothing to do with my personal expectations or attitude.
I "expected" it would be a great period of personal growth for me.
My "attitude" was one of meekness and willingness to learn.
Thus, to say that I went into it "knowing" what was to unfold over the next two years is inaccurate at best.
If anything, one would expect that such a training program would teach us how to be loving servants through day-to-day exemplification.
I did learn a lot of valuable lessons about human behavior.
That is to be expected of any young person put in a similar circumstance, regardless of the religion or cause being represented.
However, as far as being an accurate representation of the product that was presented, I would have to say it fell amazingly short.(Their fault, not mine.)
Summary: To say we went into these programs knowing what to expect is simply not at all accurate.
A very interesting and insightful thread going here. I have more comments, but they would be off Copenhagen's topic, so I'll say goodbye on this one.
You've all caused me to pause and think, which to me is a sign of a good discussion, so I thank you and I thank Pawtucket for this and all forum opportunities.
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rascal
I dunno, I guess one would have to ask then, what constitutes a stone?
Rape, abortion, forced sexual servitude, humiliation, degredation. intimidation, perpetual hunger...I just don`t see those as legitimate tools to be used in foraging the character and ability to become a minister for God....much less a training program for God`s elite crack troops.
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Belle
Copenhagen, I've been there. I understand.
I *thought* my marriage was rock solid and that it was genuinely good but when push came to shove, my ex chose TWI over his commitment to me. It took me five years and a major confrontation for me to realize that if he would choose TWI over me, then it wasn't really the great marriage I thought it was.
On the other hand, Hope and John survived about that many years with Hope being out and John wanting to stay and fix things. John eventually saw through the facade and left TWI as well. They are still happily married and, I believe, John's letter to Rosie & company is on the front page of the cafe.
Each situation is different and there are marriages that survive one spouse leaving TWI, but many, too many, that don't. You've got to do what you you've got to do.
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penworks
Ah, yes, I understand what you mean now. I see from so many posts here that after the big exodus of the late 1980s that the system encouraged being meaner and meaner in a lot of ways...
penworks
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excathedra
penworks, thank you for your posts
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WhiteDove
No offence taken Copenhagen, in the end we all do what we do. I understand, really I do . I have been where you are and I did not like the price to pay either. I wanted a different path out of the wilderness as well, that I was stuck in. It took a teaching from Vince Finnegan to finally make me see, that when I plant tomato seeds in the ground the end result is tomatoes. If one wants cucumbers as the final result one must plant cucumber seeds. Taking a tomato plant and cutting the tomatoes off and gluing cucumbers on it won't work. If one wants to change to cucumbers one must plant cucumber seeds.
If you want to change issues in your heart you must change what seeds are planted there. The deception we all face is thinking that by changing circumstances, situations, or associations, we can change our lives. Sometimes that works in the short term. The truth is the heart is that which must be altered to change our lives. Once I realized that God had provided a way out of the wilderness I had to let go of the choices that kept me sitting there. It was silly to think I could help anyone else when I was just as stuck in the wilderness as they were. If anyone was getting out I had to go for help, down the road provided. That's not to say I did not go kicking and complaining all the way, but when I got honest I knew that it was the right choice no matter the cost. Life in the wilderness was ok, I had a little food ,a little water now and then, like a survivor castaway I had made a home there, but it was a far cry from the life of the old days of fellowship with the Father.
As I said we all have a price we will pay in life, sometimes the cost is too high. I wish you Godspeed down your path.
Dylan once said "I paid the price of solitude, but at least I'm out of debt."
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WordWolf
Bear in mind that the corps was presented as teaching to apply the Bible and serve God.
As such, one should come to expect bullying to be rare and accidental,
mis-steps by the one who bullied.
This FICTION that the corps was supposed to be some sort of paramilitary organization
where Christians were sent through some sort of Boot Camp and were expected to
be some sort of soldier/athlete Christian is not reflected in anything anyone was
handed before joining, nor part of what they signed, nor in the official comments
made verbally for those interested.
It was supposed to be some sort of Christian education-partly in the classroom,
partly outside the classroom by doing, but an education overall.
That's one reason why the "graduates" got a DIPLOMA at the conclusion.
If the corps was supposed to be some sort of military training,
then it was an INCREDIBLY poor model of one- partly because vpw designed it,
and vpw's knowledge of the military came second-hand AT BEST, and primarily
from movies and television like many of us have seen-
but we at least admit we don't really know about it.
If it HAD been based on some sort of military model- and not a CHRISTIAN EDUCATION model,
(which would have been news to most of the students, especially the Family Corps who
never planned to take their families into military training)
then-at most- the opening few weeks should have been when any high-pressure
activities took place.
However, based on what I've heard from people actually IN the military-
the bullying is seen in MOVIES and possibly when applying for elite units like
Navy Seals, Special Forces, etc, and is not seen in actual training, neither during
a normal tour, nor in boot camp. It's more like Sergeant Hulka in "Stripes"- where
he tells the men they're going to learn how to do everything the army's way, and
he's going to be their instructor. This whole "yell-at-the-trainee" stuff is reserved
for when a trainee does something SPECIFIC and STUPID.
(For example, when a trainee at the firing range stands up, and carelessly points
his rifle at someone, with live ammo in the gun. THAT's worth yelling over- and he
got yelled at over it.)
Movies show sergeants screaming at cadets, calling them worthless,
and commercials show sergeants yelling at length over a small ketchup stain on an undershirt.
That's FICTION, not reality.
However, vpw really didn't seem to have anything more substantial than that
sort of cinematic background when considering additions to the program
that were supposedly "military".
That's CARELESS, and IMPROPER PREPARATION on his part. He should have been
FAR better prepared when proposing a multi-year training program.
If one HAS TO "take some bullying" and "hard knocks",one may not have the right PROGRAM.
Criticism-of PRODUCTIVE KINDS- are healthy parts of ANY training program,
no matter how inconsequential the program.
(Trainees at fast-food restaurants receive constructive criticism as well.)
The disciples were beaten by the religious authorities of their day, and rejoiced
to be counted worthy to suffer in Christ's name. Didn't mean the beatings were
correct. Their attitude was healthy- but they were responding to something
UNhealthy, and UNgodly-but dressed up as something godly.
After all. "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" makes a dandy
rationalization for "I yell because I care" and "I yell because you can take it",
but of those three sayings,
all three are from vpw,
and NONE of the three are FROM SCRIPTURE.
The first one, "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" bears a resemblance
to "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger",
which of course is from Frederich Neitzche,
the same man who said "God is dead."
Neither of those, of course, appear in Scripture, either.
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WordWolf
THERE'S an ugly truth we all had to face....
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Watered Garden
I don't recall ONE incident in Scripture where Jesus Christ, whom VPW purported to represent as The Tupos for the Christian walk, bullied people. Reproved, corrected, probably raised his voice, sure. He said to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" There was undoubtedly a snap in His voice then, but He did NOT say, "Get thee behind me, you worthless piece of S***!" He never made his disciples feel useless and worthless, like VPW and LCM did the WC. I was there. I hated every minute of it. It was only after dismissal from the FWC I began to question my existence and contemplate suicide. It was graduates of the WC that made me think about it more and more.
Jesus restored Peter after Peter denied Him however many times he denied Him. He made a point of restoring Peter. He would never had ascended to heaven before He had restored Peter. Why? Because He loved Peter. He loved His disciples. He cared for them when they were arguing, fearful, being stupid and vacillating.
I'd rather be like Jesus than VPW or LCM.
To say that VPW or LCM represented God is an insult to the Almighty. IMO.
WG
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waysider
When I signed on to go into fellowlaborers, it was presented as a program that would study the Book Of Acts, both academically and through everyday application. The stated purpose of the program was to prepare us as leaders so we could go back to our home areas and be more effective leaders.
What is it in that representation of the program that would lead one to "expect" they would be subjected to bullying "from time to time" and suggest that it may be one's own fault that it happened due to improper attitude?
My first year there, I don't remember very much unwarranted criticism or bullying, just a lot of anal retentive labor projects and very little personal time. That was when Howie was in charge. Howie was very "laid back" and seemed to have a genuine concern for people. Still, not much academic material was delivered.
My second year, the program changed completely.( New limb leader/FLO coordinator)It became a seemingly non stop series of bullying and belittlement.(virtually NO academic material delivered.)
The product that was delivered did not even resemble the product that was advertised.
That had nothing to do with my personal expectations or attitude.
I "expected" it would be a great period of personal growth for me.
My "attitude" was one of meekness and willingness to learn.
Thus, to say that I went into it "knowing" what was to unfold over the next two years is inaccurate at best.
If anything, one would expect that such a training program would teach us how to be loving servants through day-to-day exemplification.
I did learn a lot of valuable lessons about human behavior.
That is to be expected of any young person put in a similar circumstance, regardless of the religion or cause being represented.
However, as far as being an accurate representation of the product that was presented, I would have to say it fell amazingly short.(Their fault, not mine.)
Summary: To say we went into these programs knowing what to expect is simply not at all accurate.
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penworks
A very interesting and insightful thread going here. I have more comments, but they would be off Copenhagen's topic, so I'll say goodbye on this one.
You've all caused me to pause and think, which to me is a sign of a good discussion, so I thank you and I thank Pawtucket for this and all forum opportunities.
Be well one and all.
Ciao from my desk,
penworks
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