Point being are people looking for other churches or offshoots to find that same
feeling or friendship?Or is it a soul searching to find where you can do your best for God?
I don't look for the same feeling or friendship.. mainly because I think the level of friendship I thought I had was a carefully crafted illusion, some on my part, to begin with.
I don't know if people are even capable of setting aside their baser instincts to have that kind of intimacy with someone who is a complete stranger or outsider. It's hard enough for even blood relatives to do so..
Copenhagen, this is like being on drugs/alcohol/smoking, false spiritual addiction or "high". Not really healthy. We thought JC had returned and Satan had been destroyed, pseudo Garden of Eden. Me, I left in late fall of '79 but already began to feel the wrath of Wierwille and Company, a den of vipers. And this is before Martindale took over. TWI re-inforced my arrogance. yes, I wish things had been different(going to Appalachian State in Boone instead of East Carolina in Greenville) and never running into The Way International and instead focusing my time on College classes instead of Twig/PFAL, etc. But I can't moan and cry over "spilt milk", rather I picked myself up and focus on my present job and interests. Also, I wish I had gotten married back in late 70's and had children(instead of being single and lonely, and hating it), but unlike Doctor Who, I don't have a Tardis to whisk me back in time(nor the Time Tunnel or any other SciFi TV or movie program). :unsure: :blink: :( :mellow: :huh: :wacko:
Copenhagen, I looked for that feeling for a long time. It was never quite the same. Then I realized that what I needed was not the friendship and cameraderie of other people, which will disappear in a heartbeat if you leave the sacred walls of Zion (TWI), either by your own volition or they decide you are no longer worthy of the privilege of fellowshipping with them.
What I needed in my life was a real, personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I needed to know who He is for real. I did the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, something a lot of posters here may never do. I admitted to myself that a lot of what TWI teaches as "rightly-divided Word" is not that at all. I'm not going into what I kept and what I cast aside as part of my personal beliefs; that doesn't belong in this thread. I admitted that I am a sinner and that I need a savior. I asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart and be my Lord.
You don't get that from TWI. What IMO they teach is an illusion of salvation. You "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart", but you do not confess you are a sinner and need a savior. Thus, it is easy to subtly usurp the rightful position of Jesus Christ in your heart and mind and life with the false friendships of TWI, the leadership, not of Christ as the Head of the Church, but as TWI as the omniescent, and eventually omnipotent lord of your being. They teach that to ask Jesus to be your Lord and hand over your life to Him is to become possessed. That is absolute garbanzo beans; if Jesus is your Lord, they can't be. So they drive a wedge between you and Him.
Anyways, that's what worked for me. And as a result, I have a church home that I love and that loves me right back. But's it's the fellowship with Christ that fills the gap, not people.
I understand what you're saying. They were great times, we were young, we loved God, he loved us.
But, we can't go back. It was youth, you can't go home again.
I've met some of my old "best buddies."
Its very interesting, because as an adult you can tell, you now have nothing in common with them whatsoever except that you used to be in TWI together once.
If you were to meet them today, you may find, after the initial enthusiasm and rehashing your history, stories, and the good old days history you have together, that you really don't want to hang out with them.
There are great churches out there and great fellowships. I found that not having TWI to depend on, I really had to deepen my relationship with Christ.
I hope you find what you are looking for on your journey.
I don`t know copenhagen, I remember all you speak of....but I guess that I have found many great friends since leaving twi.
I truly think that the camradery and like mindedness that you described, comes from investing ones self with people whom have similar goals.
Goodness, we invested our hearts and souls into God, serving him via twi for decades....You try investing that kind of time and effort into most any cause that you are passionate about and you will generally find people that you like and respect that share your zeal.
I see it in the group of us that participates in fund raising activities for our local battered womens shelter, our karate school, our home school activity group, our horse training facility friends...our arabian club friends...the kid`s theatre group...Our neighbors..our little country church.....
I have found that it takes a lot of time, effort and enthusiasm invested to achieve the intimacy of fellowship that you are hungry for.... We all were that way about twi at one time....we were all passionate and like minded, there were so many terrific people that shared the same ideas and goals we did....we are alll still out here.....it is just that now we have found different activities to invest ourselves in and become passionate about. God`s still there with us...we are still learning and growing, we are still serving... it is just in different directions that we personally and individually find exciting and fulfilling.
Try investing as much time and thought as we did in twi in another group or activity for a while and see if you don`t find wonderfull folks that share your exhuberance... a sense of purpose.
What you are missing is still available, just not in twi it would seem. Have you considered that in being kept busy in twi where you are miserable, there is very little left to invest in something that would make your efforts feel meaningfull and appreciated...build the feeling of brotherhood.
Copenhagen, your description of life in twi reminds me forcebly of being stuck in a very bad marriage....lonely and miserable year after year, unable to seek a life with a person whom could care for you and you could love because you are stuck with someone whom mistreats you and whom you resent....you can`t leave, so you spend day after day mooning over what you wish would happen, how you wish that things were different....frustrated, angry, lonely....
Years go by, things never get better and then all of a sudden you realise one day that you are old and you waisted so much precious time being sad and unfulfilled.
Imo, life is way too short to not be passionately inspired by what we do and whom we do it with every day...be it in our marriage, our activities, or whom we fellowship with.
Rascal expressed many thoughts and feelings that I share, too, and in such a lovely way! I would add that you might consider writing down the pros and cons of staying with TWI and weigh them carefully. See what it all adds up to or comes down to. I remember around the time I began thinking of leaving, I looked around the WOW auditorium (this was in about 1985) and thought "Who in here really cares about MY wellbeing? If my wellbeing means I need to leave this group, who in here would support me in that decision?" Well, I found out real fast the answers to those questions when I did leave. But, today I often think of - even feel like - Job who after losing soooo much, gained everything back sevenfold later in life because he stuck to his truth. I'm reminded of this quote: To thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man." Good night and good luck!
Thanks Penworks....funny isn`t it?? When you realise that your brothers and sisters in Christ...those whom we considered closer to us than our blood family...the very folks we would fall on a sword for....only felt that way about us as long as we were standing in the house hold.....
Copenhagen, I understand being stuck and not able to leave...sigh. My heart just went out to you when I read of how uninspiring twi activities are for you these days. :(
I don`t think things can ever be any different.... the people who made twi what it was during those exciting inspiring times have found different avenues to apply their inspiration and talent. The musicians, the talented teachers, the kind pastors...all have gone.
What I noticed during the late eighties as people were being forced out, fired, bullied into compliance and silence....that the only people in twi in GOOD stabnding...those who were being promoted and assigned to fill in the positians of people being bullied out....were those who were cruel and harsh.
I remember arguing with my husband when he talked of no longer accepting assignments....I begged him to do what was necessary to stay in good standing...I remember so clearly how desperate I felt, I could see so clearly where twi was headed.
I told mark tearfully that couldn`t he see??? If all of the kind, caring people were to continue to allow themselves to be driven away....the only ones left in charge would be the bullies...the cruel folks....there would be nobody left standing in the gap to protect the innocent.
He was smart though...he knew that there was no salvaging the situation...though we stayed for several years more in non leadership positions to try.
I don`t figure a lot of people really knew what was the turning point...why twi fellowship suddenly became so visciously harsh...the tasks so demanding.
I believe it was because the people that kept the bullies in check for so many years..., the ones who refused to be bullied were finally driven away....there were very few people left to stand in the path...to deflect the cruelty ....to stand in the path of the evil of the bullies in charge at the top.
I don`t think a lot of people understand why twi is so different today...why it is impossible to recover any of what made it an exciting vibrant group.
Rascal, I understand a lot of what you mean about the bullies remaining after so much dust settled, but I have to say that I was around EARLY on in the 1970s, in the Second Corps, and experienced a good deal of personal bullying from the founder of TWI. I have to be fair and say he started that bully ball rolling. It didn't just appear in the 80s. What we see today is an inevitable outgrowth of the seeds planted in the 1940s.
When I examine my experience (which I've been doing the past 20 years) I see that groups like this can only be what they are. Huh? I mean, that to expect them to be able to maintain kindness in the face of challenging questions, for instance, is close to impossible. Questions are threatening to them. This sort of fundamentalist system is afraid by its very nature of any non-compliance. Fear is the lasso used to rope people into their corral and tie 'em down.
Anyhow, I second the motion for Copenhagen to branch out and try to meet new friends. To keep the old may not be possible. But the world is full of good people who can show up in our lives when we least expect them, so let the universe provide for you, Copenhagen. The key word is "let"!
ABSOLUTELY...I agree, the bullying came from the very top, from the very beginning. What I meant was that there were an awfull lot of really good people who did their very best to talk the talk and walk the walk. These were the people most saw, whom most interacted with....
Those were the people who ran the fellowships, who loved the people, who took the bu tt chewings from above...but continued to love, pray for, minister to everyone in their path....those were the people who`s heart was to serve God and take care of his people....
When they started getting fired for not towing the line, when people were told that their fellowships were no longer considered legitimate...when they were cast out and declared mark and avoid....when they were declared suspiscious spiritually and people warned to stay away....the people who were used to replace them...many times were viscious bullies.
The meaner you were, the more face meltings that you could brag about...the more spiritual you were viewed.
Without the strong people to prevent the bullying....the evil from the top was allowed to run unchecked.
I take copenhagen at their word....that they are stuck in twi. I feel terrible for this...knowing how bleak that existance can be.
I grew up as a teen in twi and had many great times.
The people were awesome frienships were special.
Friends were made better then what school offred, they loved you for who you were,Gods kid.
The pure joy of fellowship, the word and people made it exciting.
The music was top notch, and everyone wanted to start a band write songs and
show there love for God.
(((((Copenhagen)))))
I so know how it is being "stuck in twi" when your heart is anywhere but in twi - believe me - I'm all too familiar with that. I feel for ya. It's a miserable place to be.
I think, too, that some of the experiences and fondness you have may be due, somewhat to the young age at which those memories were formed and, sadly, from a protected perspective since most young folks in TWI are sheltered from the ugliness. We also tend to be a bit more naive and oblivious to the pain others may be experiencing when we're young. I know, for me, I gave adults way too much credit. And, as a result, fell for, settled for and ignored quite a bit.
What I did, and what I encouraged my ex-husband to do, was to do those things that really thrill your soul - what do you like to do? Write? Play an instrument? Play a sport? Perform in the theater? Collect coins? DO THOSE THINGS! Get involved with some folks who share the same - non-religious interests that you have. There are local intramural athletic teams, a community theater, karate classes, yoga classes, etc. - www.meetup.com has been a great place for me to find interesting people to meet up with and helped get me out of my little hermitage.
A church - especially TWI - is not and can not be all things to all people. If you are indeed stuck in TWI, then the only non-threatening way for you to find that companionship, camaraderie, acceptance and fun that is so lacking is to begin spreading your wings in other areas of interest.
Now, there ARE some wonderful churches out there. I've found a church I love attending - I love the people; the services are uplifting and the discussions we have are stimulating, but I no longer focus my life 24/7 on quoting scripture, witnessing and doing whatever "the church" wants me to do with my time. I actually have a life now - what a concept!
I think being in TWI is kind of like "Shawshank Redemption" - we were in a prison that dictated, manipulated and controlled 100% of our lives. Once we're no longer in that prison, we don't know how to make our own decisions - we don't know how to act and we've certainly lost touch with what's "normal" and what "normal" people do.
What do you like to do, Copenhagen? Do that! The rest will follow. :)
Fostering, encouraging and supporting any thing your children have an interest in is also a good way to make sure they have the friendships, supportive relationships and fun that you remember so fondly from your growing up days. Those fond memories don't have to come from TWI - many of us who weren't raised in TWI still have those same nostalgic thoughts from our youth - they just aren't TWI related.
I do have some great memories from our Youth Group activities at the Baptist Church where I grew up, but I also have equally great memories from my time in the theater - school plays, thespian society, community theater, special arts camps, college theater.... you get the idea.
Girl Scouts / Boy Scouts - great kid centered wholesome fun - ask ArkieRon if his son feels slighted not growing up in TWI.
Rascal and her whole crew are Karate experts - Just ask her nicely about that, though, she's a black belt, ya know? ;)
Sometimes it helps to get things in perspective, and then decide what it is you want.
There were some GREAT things about some of the fellowships - as you stated. Of course those things many times happened with a bunch of skeletons hanging in closets that everyone was directing us away from.
So what is it that you want? A church home? To meet great people? To have some of your old friends to keep in touch?
It may be that what you once had as an "all-in-one" package now needs to be divided up. (I think a few other posters have said this already.) The great thing about that is that you will meet even more people. Also, if you are involved in many things, then no one things can set you up for complete disappointment, as TWI did.
I searched for a church and was able to find one that served not only my needs, but my kids' needs as well.
I got involved with the PTA and various other school responsiblities.
I returned to my hobbies and re-nurtured my talents in various classes.
It may take a while, but you certainly have many fine folks here who are willing to bounce ideas around.
Ditto to what Belle and Rascal have shared! It's a brave adventure you are on, Copenhagen, but remember some of us have gone before you and done it already, so it can be undertaken - just one baby step at a time...
I'm not sure if you were looking for input or just lamenting on the way things are. If you were looking for input I'd offer this.
First, you are never stuck anywhere that you don't want to be, it is only limited by, if you are willing to do what is needed to make the change. Nothing is worth staying somewhere where you are miserable. But the cost for change is sometimes high.
Many times the experiences of our youth seem to be better than they really were. I do think that there were some great times as well, but in looking back part of that was tempered with the advantages of youth , vs the weight of an adult. For myself I think that part of the *good old days * was certainly due to the lack of responsibility to the world. I could say the same about the hippie days. I don't think you will ever reclaim those times, your not the same person that you were. We all grow up.
People are often bitter of giving up there youth to the twi feeling it was a waste.
I could be a lot further in my career now with out the twi, and have a better 401k and more money.
I regret some but not all of it.
I must confess I don't get this. The Way was not a school for a job placement, it was biblical research and teaching. While one may have learned and taken away some things useful in job situations for sure, it none the less was not why we were there. Although it may be disputable as to the degree, The Way offered spiritual training , it was not intended to enrich 401K's or build secular careers. If that was what one wanted you signed on the wrong dotted line. If I want groceries I don't go to the bar and then complain that there is no food there.
I may be misunderstanding you but it looks like you were not wanting some secular involvement program, or a church to attend, but rather you are looking for the old feeling and fellowship that you had. It appears that you are overall satisfied with you beliefs and not wanting to adopt traditional church ideas ( such as The Trinity, The dead alive, ect.) I'd offer this to you, the closest thing to what you appear to be looking for is the CFF group. They have not moved too far from the Way doctrine, and do offer at least in some locations some opportunities for fellowship and fun. Some of the Wierwille kids are involved with CFF and they do offer many opportunities for youth events. I've met a few people off and on over the years that fellowship there and always found their company to be quite enjoyable. A few months back I attended a BBQ and had a great time talking with Sara W. and we sang some of those old songs around the campfire with guitars, it was enjoyable but it was not the same as in my youth. As Mary Hopkins once sang.......
... but I have to say that I was around EARLY on in the 1970s, in the Second Corps, and experienced a good deal of personal bullying from the founder of TWI. ...
Bear in mind that the corps was a training program, and as such, one would come to expect some bullying from time to time. If one can't take some bullying, criticism and hard knocks, one may not have the right attitude. "its the stones in the brook that make it sing" ... its all attitude. Not saying that you didn't have that attitude, just commenting...
OM... thanks for bringing that up... that "stones in the brook" thing... just another fine example of the indoctrination process of the CULT that we were in that convinced us that "it was good for us" to be subjugated to bullying and abuse... we were in the corps to learn how to become better servants to God and His people... in no way did that require that we be treated like rubbish... you're still a TWI apologist, you always will be.
My wife is wonderful she knows how I feel she hopes one day I will drink the Koolaide
again and if I dont she will still love me and stay with me. She has for a few years.
I believe her but I have seen the out come time and time again of couples were one is going
and one is not. This is not a chance I will take.
From what I've seen in the past, it all depends on the spouses attitude and how they deal with it.
For instance, if your wife respects and loves you anyway despite you having no desire to stay in twi; then it is a workable situation. At least it was in "those good old days."
I don't blame twi for wanting you both in there, naturally they will see that as the best possible arrangement.
But this is one of those situations where *you* have to be in control of the situation and not let others control *you*.
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Ham
I don't look for the same feeling or friendship.. mainly because I think the level of friendship I thought I had was a carefully crafted illusion, some on my part, to begin with.
I don't know if people are even capable of setting aside their baser instincts to have that kind of intimacy with someone who is a complete stranger or outsider. It's hard enough for even blood relatives to do so..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Copenhagen, this is like being on drugs/alcohol/smoking, false spiritual addiction or "high". Not really healthy. We thought JC had returned and Satan had been destroyed, pseudo Garden of Eden. Me, I left in late fall of '79 but already began to feel the wrath of Wierwille and Company, a den of vipers. And this is before Martindale took over. TWI re-inforced my arrogance. yes, I wish things had been different(going to Appalachian State in Boone instead of East Carolina in Greenville) and never running into The Way International and instead focusing my time on College classes instead of Twig/PFAL, etc. But I can't moan and cry over "spilt milk", rather I picked myself up and focus on my present job and interests. Also, I wish I had gotten married back in late 70's and had children(instead of being single and lonely, and hating it), but unlike Doctor Who, I don't have a Tardis to whisk me back in time(nor the Time Tunnel or any other SciFi TV or movie program). :unsure: :blink: :( :mellow:
:huh: :wacko: 
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Watered Garden
Copenhagen, I looked for that feeling for a long time. It was never quite the same. Then I realized that what I needed was not the friendship and cameraderie of other people, which will disappear in a heartbeat if you leave the sacred walls of Zion (TWI), either by your own volition or they decide you are no longer worthy of the privilege of fellowshipping with them.
What I needed in my life was a real, personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I needed to know who He is for real. I did the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, something a lot of posters here may never do. I admitted to myself that a lot of what TWI teaches as "rightly-divided Word" is not that at all. I'm not going into what I kept and what I cast aside as part of my personal beliefs; that doesn't belong in this thread. I admitted that I am a sinner and that I need a savior. I asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart and be my Lord.
You don't get that from TWI. What IMO they teach is an illusion of salvation. You "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart", but you do not confess you are a sinner and need a savior. Thus, it is easy to subtly usurp the rightful position of Jesus Christ in your heart and mind and life with the false friendships of TWI, the leadership, not of Christ as the Head of the Church, but as TWI as the omniescent, and eventually omnipotent lord of your being. They teach that to ask Jesus to be your Lord and hand over your life to Him is to become possessed. That is absolute garbanzo beans; if Jesus is your Lord, they can't be. So they drive a wedge between you and Him.
Anyways, that's what worked for me. And as a result, I have a church home that I love and that loves me right back. But's it's the fellowship with Christ that fills the gap, not people.
WG
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Sunesis
I understand what you're saying. They were great times, we were young, we loved God, he loved us.
But, we can't go back. It was youth, you can't go home again.
I've met some of my old "best buddies."
Its very interesting, because as an adult you can tell, you now have nothing in common with them whatsoever except that you used to be in TWI together once.
If you were to meet them today, you may find, after the initial enthusiasm and rehashing your history, stories, and the good old days history you have together, that you really don't want to hang out with them.
There are great churches out there and great fellowships. I found that not having TWI to depend on, I really had to deepen my relationship with Christ.
I hope you find what you are looking for on your journey.
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rascal
I don`t know copenhagen, I remember all you speak of....but I guess that I have found many great friends since leaving twi.
I truly think that the camradery and like mindedness that you described, comes from investing ones self with people whom have similar goals.
Goodness, we invested our hearts and souls into God, serving him via twi for decades....You try investing that kind of time and effort into most any cause that you are passionate about and you will generally find people that you like and respect that share your zeal.
I see it in the group of us that participates in fund raising activities for our local battered womens shelter, our karate school, our home school activity group, our horse training facility friends...our arabian club friends...the kid`s theatre group...Our neighbors..our little country church.....
I have found that it takes a lot of time, effort and enthusiasm invested to achieve the intimacy of fellowship that you are hungry for.... We all were that way about twi at one time....we were all passionate and like minded, there were so many terrific people that shared the same ideas and goals we did....we are alll still out here.....it is just that now we have found different activities to invest ourselves in and become passionate about. God`s still there with us...we are still learning and growing, we are still serving... it is just in different directions that we personally and individually find exciting and fulfilling.
Try investing as much time and thought as we did in twi in another group or activity for a while and see if you don`t find wonderfull folks that share your exhuberance... a sense of purpose.
What you are missing is still available, just not in twi it would seem. Have you considered that in being kept busy in twi where you are miserable, there is very little left to invest in something that would make your efforts feel meaningfull and appreciated...build the feeling of brotherhood.
Copenhagen, your description of life in twi reminds me forcebly of being stuck in a very bad marriage....lonely and miserable year after year, unable to seek a life with a person whom could care for you and you could love because you are stuck with someone whom mistreats you and whom you resent....you can`t leave, so you spend day after day mooning over what you wish would happen, how you wish that things were different....frustrated, angry, lonely....
Years go by, things never get better and then all of a sudden you realise one day that you are old and you waisted so much precious time being sad and unfulfilled.
Imo, life is way too short to not be passionately inspired by what we do and whom we do it with every day...be it in our marriage, our activities, or whom we fellowship with.
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polar bear
Looks like you are looking for a feeling.
You would probably be better off joining some non-religious group or volunteer group that acutually accomplishes something.
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penworks
Rascal expressed many thoughts and feelings that I share, too, and in such a lovely way! I would add that you might consider writing down the pros and cons of staying with TWI and weigh them carefully. See what it all adds up to or comes down to. I remember around the time I began thinking of leaving, I looked around the WOW auditorium (this was in about 1985) and thought "Who in here really cares about MY wellbeing? If my wellbeing means I need to leave this group, who in here would support me in that decision?" Well, I found out real fast the answers to those questions when I did leave. But, today I often think of - even feel like - Job who after losing soooo much, gained everything back sevenfold later in life because he stuck to his truth. I'm reminded of this quote: To thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man." Good night and good luck!
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rascal
Thanks Penworks....funny isn`t it?? When you realise that your brothers and sisters in Christ...those whom we considered closer to us than our blood family...the very folks we would fall on a sword for....only felt that way about us as long as we were standing in the house hold.....
Copenhagen, I understand being stuck and not able to leave...sigh. My heart just went out to you when I read of how uninspiring twi activities are for you these days. :(
I don`t think things can ever be any different.... the people who made twi what it was during those exciting inspiring times have found different avenues to apply their inspiration and talent. The musicians, the talented teachers, the kind pastors...all have gone.
What I noticed during the late eighties as people were being forced out, fired, bullied into compliance and silence....that the only people in twi in GOOD stabnding...those who were being promoted and assigned to fill in the positians of people being bullied out....were those who were cruel and harsh.
I remember arguing with my husband when he talked of no longer accepting assignments....I begged him to do what was necessary to stay in good standing...I remember so clearly how desperate I felt, I could see so clearly where twi was headed.
I told mark tearfully that couldn`t he see??? If all of the kind, caring people were to continue to allow themselves to be driven away....the only ones left in charge would be the bullies...the cruel folks....there would be nobody left standing in the gap to protect the innocent.
He was smart though...he knew that there was no salvaging the situation...though we stayed for several years more in non leadership positions to try.
I don`t figure a lot of people really knew what was the turning point...why twi fellowship suddenly became so visciously harsh...the tasks so demanding.
I believe it was because the people that kept the bullies in check for so many years..., the ones who refused to be bullied were finally driven away....there were very few people left to stand in the path...to deflect the cruelty ....to stand in the path of the evil of the bullies in charge at the top.
I don`t think a lot of people understand why twi is so different today...why it is impossible to recover any of what made it an exciting vibrant group.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear ((((((((((Copenhagen)))))))))))),
I put my reply to You in the "For music Lovers" by Polar Bear on the bottom of page #56
I Love You Copenhagen, RainbowsGirl
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penworks
Rascal, I understand a lot of what you mean about the bullies remaining after so much dust settled, but I have to say that I was around EARLY on in the 1970s, in the Second Corps, and experienced a good deal of personal bullying from the founder of TWI. I have to be fair and say he started that bully ball rolling. It didn't just appear in the 80s. What we see today is an inevitable outgrowth of the seeds planted in the 1940s.
When I examine my experience (which I've been doing the past 20 years) I see that groups like this can only be what they are. Huh? I mean, that to expect them to be able to maintain kindness in the face of challenging questions, for instance, is close to impossible. Questions are threatening to them. This sort of fundamentalist system is afraid by its very nature of any non-compliance. Fear is the lasso used to rope people into their corral and tie 'em down.
Anyhow, I second the motion for Copenhagen to branch out and try to meet new friends. To keep the old may not be possible. But the world is full of good people who can show up in our lives when we least expect them, so let the universe provide for you, Copenhagen. The key word is "let"!
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rascal
ABSOLUTELY...I agree, the bullying came from the very top, from the very beginning. What I meant was that there were an awfull lot of really good people who did their very best to talk the talk and walk the walk. These were the people most saw, whom most interacted with....
Those were the people who ran the fellowships, who loved the people, who took the bu tt chewings from above...but continued to love, pray for, minister to everyone in their path....those were the people who`s heart was to serve God and take care of his people....
When they started getting fired for not towing the line, when people were told that their fellowships were no longer considered legitimate...when they were cast out and declared mark and avoid....when they were declared suspiscious spiritually and people warned to stay away....the people who were used to replace them...many times were viscious bullies.
The meaner you were, the more face meltings that you could brag about...the more spiritual you were viewed.
Without the strong people to prevent the bullying....the evil from the top was allowed to run unchecked.
I take copenhagen at their word....that they are stuck in twi. I feel terrible for this...knowing how bleak that existance can be.
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Belle
(((((Copenhagen)))))
I so know how it is being "stuck in twi" when your heart is anywhere but in twi - believe me - I'm all too familiar with that.
I feel for ya. It's a miserable place to be.
I think, too, that some of the experiences and fondness you have may be due, somewhat to the young age at which those memories were formed and, sadly, from a protected perspective since most young folks in TWI are sheltered from the ugliness. We also tend to be a bit more naive and oblivious to the pain others may be experiencing when we're young. I know, for me, I gave adults way too much credit.
And, as a result, fell for, settled for and ignored quite a bit. 
What I did, and what I encouraged my ex-husband to do, was to do those things that really thrill your soul - what do you like to do? Write? Play an instrument? Play a sport? Perform in the theater? Collect coins? DO THOSE THINGS! Get involved with some folks who share the same - non-religious interests that you have. There are local intramural athletic teams, a community theater, karate classes, yoga classes, etc. - www.meetup.com has been a great place for me to find interesting people to meet up with and helped get me out of my little hermitage.
A church - especially TWI - is not and can not be all things to all people. If you are indeed stuck in TWI, then the only non-threatening way for you to find that companionship, camaraderie, acceptance and fun that is so lacking is to begin spreading your wings in other areas of interest.
Now, there ARE some wonderful churches out there. I've found a church I love attending - I love the people; the services are uplifting and the discussions we have are stimulating, but I no longer focus my life 24/7 on quoting scripture, witnessing and doing whatever "the church" wants me to do with my time. I actually have a life now - what a concept!
I think being in TWI is kind of like "Shawshank Redemption" - we were in a prison that dictated, manipulated and controlled 100% of our lives. Once we're no longer in that prison, we don't know how to make our own decisions - we don't know how to act and we've certainly lost touch with what's "normal" and what "normal" people do.
What do you like to do, Copenhagen? Do that! The rest will follow. :)
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Belle
Fostering, encouraging and supporting any thing your children have an interest in is also a good way to make sure they have the friendships, supportive relationships and fun that you remember so fondly from your growing up days. Those fond memories don't have to come from TWI - many of us who weren't raised in TWI still have those same nostalgic thoughts from our youth - they just aren't TWI related.
I do have some great memories from our Youth Group activities at the Baptist Church where I grew up, but I also have equally great memories from my time in the theater - school plays, thespian society, community theater, special arts camps, college theater.... you get the idea.
Girl Scouts / Boy Scouts - great kid centered wholesome fun - ask ArkieRon if his son feels slighted not growing up in TWI.
Rascal and her whole crew are Karate experts - Just ask her nicely about that, though, she's a black belt, ya know? ;)
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excathedra
big hug copenhagen and you too thomas loy
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doojable
Copenhagen,
Sometimes it helps to get things in perspective, and then decide what it is you want.
There were some GREAT things about some of the fellowships - as you stated. Of course those things many times happened with a bunch of skeletons hanging in closets that everyone was directing us away from.
So what is it that you want? A church home? To meet great people? To have some of your old friends to keep in touch?
It may be that what you once had as an "all-in-one" package now needs to be divided up. (I think a few other posters have said this already.) The great thing about that is that you will meet even more people. Also, if you are involved in many things, then no one things can set you up for complete disappointment, as TWI did.
I searched for a church and was able to find one that served not only my needs, but my kids' needs as well.
I got involved with the PTA and various other school responsiblities.
I returned to my hobbies and re-nurtured my talents in various classes.
It may take a while, but you certainly have many fine folks here who are willing to bounce ideas around.
Take your time, and take care!
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penworks
Ditto to what Belle and Rascal have shared! It's a brave adventure you are on, Copenhagen, but remember some of us have gone before you and done it already, so it can be undertaken - just one baby step at a time...
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WhiteDove
Copenhagen
I'm not sure if you were looking for input or just lamenting on the way things are. If you were looking for input I'd offer this.
First, you are never stuck anywhere that you don't want to be, it is only limited by, if you are willing to do what is needed to make the change. Nothing is worth staying somewhere where you are miserable. But the cost for change is sometimes high.
Many times the experiences of our youth seem to be better than they really were. I do think that there were some great times as well, but in looking back part of that was tempered with the advantages of youth , vs the weight of an adult. For myself I think that part of the *good old days * was certainly due to the lack of responsibility to the world. I could say the same about the hippie days. I don't think you will ever reclaim those times, your not the same person that you were. We all grow up.
I must confess I don't get this. The Way was not a school for a job placement, it was biblical research and teaching. While one may have learned and taken away some things useful in job situations for sure, it none the less was not why we were there. Although it may be disputable as to the degree, The Way offered spiritual training , it was not intended to enrich 401K's or build secular careers. If that was what one wanted you signed on the wrong dotted line. If I want groceries I don't go to the bar and then complain that there is no food there.
I may be misunderstanding you but it looks like you were not wanting some secular involvement program, or a church to attend, but rather you are looking for the old feeling and fellowship that you had. It appears that you are overall satisfied with you beliefs and not wanting to adopt traditional church ideas ( such as The Trinity, The dead alive, ect.) I'd offer this to you, the closest thing to what you appear to be looking for is the CFF group. They have not moved too far from the Way doctrine, and do offer at least in some locations some opportunities for fellowship and fun. Some of the Wierwille kids are involved with CFF and they do offer many opportunities for youth events. I've met a few people off and on over the years that fellowship there and always found their company to be quite enjoyable. A few months back I attended a BBQ and had a great time talking with Sara W. and we sang some of those old songs around the campfire with guitars, it was enjoyable but it was not the same as in my youth. As Mary Hopkins once sang.......
Once upon a time there was a tavern
Where we used to raise a glass or two
Remember how we laughed away the hours
And dreamed of all the great things we would do
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days
Then the busy years went rushing by us
We lost our starry notions on the way
If by chance I'd see you in the tavern
We'd smile at one another and we'd say
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days
Just tonight I stood before the tavern
Nothing seemed the way it used to be
In the glass I saw a strange reflection
Was that lonely woman really me
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes those were the days
Through the door there came familiar laughter
I saw your face and heard you call my name
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la...
Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days
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copenhagen
Thanks all for the information and advice given.
I am taking it all in.
To answer a few questions I really dont know what I want.
Well in the context I want my family out of the twi.
That being said and not going to happen I really am not sure what I want.
Mabye it is that feeling someone said I once had.
Mabye its that sold out commitment I once had, but at this time in my life I really
believe I could never sell out to anything again.Burn me once shame on u 2x on me.
I am involved in a few things outside of the way and work. I make every sports event
my kids are in.
These things are great but I am a very passionate person and like to jump with both feet,
give it my all. In twi that is not going to happen. Thus the void and trapped feeling.
The context of money and 401k where people usually feel like their youth was wasted on twi, and are now older
and going back to school and are years behind playing catch up.
Yes I wasted time and money on twi events that I know cost me a promotion a time or to.
I was told at work that if I could stay focused on work I could go far in the company.
Well I went out WOW for the second time and never got the nod for management.
God worked it all out and the guy who told me this now works for me at another company,
not only am I the boss of him, I make more money and he is 20 years older then me.
This is not a copenhagen is great and look at me, its a God will always take care of you.
In all I did I know my heart was to serve God not the twi. That is why I feel ok with the time lost at
my job.
Whitedove said
Nothing is worth staying somewhere where you are miserable. But the cost for change is sometimes high.
Please do not take this wrong or as rude or ugly.
My wife is wonderful she knows how I feel she hopes one day I will drink the Koolaide
again and if I dont she will still love me and stay with me. She has for a few years.
I believe her but I have seen the out come time and time again of couples were one is going
and one is not. This is not a chance I will take.
This being said we have our agreement and I know how the twi works.
This subject is closed and not up for discussion or advice please.
The cost is to high.
copenhagen
Whitedove,
Thanks I like the song.
copenhagen
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Ham
That is not a bad thing in itself. Same for me in a lot of ways.. I don't want to fill that little void with something that I DON'T want..
:)
One of the pseudo bigwigs in der vey asked me after I left.. "whatcha gonna DO? where ya gonna go (for fellowship)??"
I should have pulled out the Bret Butler answer at the moment..
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Tom Strange
well... there's always tomorrow... one day that light bulb just may go "on" for her... just as it did for you.
I know (at one time) I would never have thought it would happen for me... but it did... just as it did for you.
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oldiesman
Bear in mind that the corps was a training program, and as such, one would come to expect some bullying from time to time. If one can't take some bullying, criticism and hard knocks, one may not have the right attitude. "its the stones in the brook that make it sing" ... its all attitude. Not saying that you didn't have that attitude, just commenting...
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Tom Strange
OM... thanks for bringing that up... that "stones in the brook" thing... just another fine example of the indoctrination process of the CULT that we were in that convinced us that "it was good for us" to be subjugated to bullying and abuse... we were in the corps to learn how to become better servants to God and His people... in no way did that require that we be treated like rubbish... you're still a TWI apologist, you always will be.
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Tom Strange
sorry for the derail copenhagen, I just couldn't let that go by...
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oldiesman
From what I've seen in the past, it all depends on the spouses attitude and how they deal with it.
For instance, if your wife respects and loves you anyway despite you having no desire to stay in twi; then it is a workable situation. At least it was in "those good old days."
I don't blame twi for wanting you both in there, naturally they will see that as the best possible arrangement.
But this is one of those situations where *you* have to be in control of the situation and not let others control *you*.
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