HEY DOOJ!........which by the way was the original title of one of our favorite beatles tunes!.....hehehe.........you crack me up girl!.........let me assure "y'all"......it's not the taste of the coffee here at the spot that's messin' with my touingue!.......i don't know how to make it stop!.......although without the toungue thing happenin'.......would'nt it seem presumptuous on my part to use al's pic ??..........LOL!
Ok, I am speaking of a different verse...I will find it. Still doesn`t negate the verse I quoted from Luke.
When the scumbags repent and ask for forgiveness, then they will cease to be scum bags as far as I am concerned, and I will readily forgive them....untill then they are still nothing more than arrogant amoral creeps that continue enslaving and hurting people in God`s name.
Those who have not repented, who have not asked, have then not yet been forgiven by God. Since God for some reason doesn`t forgive without the prerequisite repentance and asking....... then I think that it is pretty audacious to think that I ought out guess God in what is the appropriate procedure.
.....that's why it's so important for us to keep posting the facts so that the various individual victims can realize "it was'nt their fault"!!.....it was and is the nature of the beast that got 'em.......love and truth only hurt the the haters and the liars......that's why i post.....to continue to expose those lyin', thievin'; weasels for what they are today.....
<snip>
DWBH, I’m glad you’re still exposing those lyin’, thievin’ weasels!!!! You probably don’t remember me – but I remember talking to you on the phone – shortly after we left. I was still writing in my Corps journal [some habits are hard to break ] and noted talking to you and RumRunner one particular weekend - you spoke of the adultery and lies at HQ. And what stands out in my wife’s [Tonto] memory more than anything was me telling her how you sounded choked up after I said something like, “What are we going to do about friends…we’ve lost all our friends.” You don’t know how critical it was to our sanity and wading through the TWI bull$hi+ to be able to talk to you and other leadership who didn’t whitewash everything…Yo waitress - a round of cappuccino for all the friends I’ve gained at Grease Spot!!!!
Dearest Excathedra, I am not waiting for an apology from any twi leader....to quote my favorite story book character...*THAT would be optimistic to the point of foolishness* :)
I certainly don`t feel like I need to forgive them either. The people who think we ought to forgive them generally follow up with ...now we have to stop talking about what they did, stop warning others of the danger they pose, stop analyzing their behavior for clue as to how to avoid falling for future snares set.
God is the only one who can work in their cold arrogant hearts....I leave it to him to bring them to a point where they seek repentance. In the meantime, I continue to view them with the same disdain and disgust that was recorded when Jesus addressing the pharacees and saducees, that took advantage of God`s people....shrug
Whited selpulchers,
I saw a neat thing on the history channel. According to this guide....that *whited* sepulchers (they are still in jeruselem cemetaries today) ...were painted white because the bodies contained within had died of contagious diseases...they were painted white to warn people not to get to close because of the ongoing chance of contamination.
These leaders Jesus was referring to....were all white and shiny on the outside...but were filled inside with the stenche of death and disease...putrid ....though nice and clean looking on the outside.....still capable of infecting one if they inadvertently approached too close.
That doesn`t sound like Jesus had a very forgiving attitude when referring to those poor saducees that just needed our forgiveness.
I certainly don`t feel like I need to forgive them either. The people who think we ought to forgive them generally follow up with ...now we have to stop talking about what they did, stop warning others of the danger they pose, stop analyzing their behavior for clue as to how to avoid falling for future snares set.
God is the only one who can work in their cold arrogant hearts....I leave it to him to bring them to a point where they seek repentance. In the meantime, I continue to view them with the same disdain and disgust that was recorded when Jesus addressing the pharacees and saducees, that took advantage of God`s people....shrug
Whited selpulchers,
I saw a neat thing on the history channel. According to this guide....that *whited* sepulchers (they are still in jeruselem cemetaries today) ...were painted white because the bodies contained within had died of contagious diseases...they were painted white to warn people not to get to close because of the ongoing chance of contamination.
I could not agree with you more, about your whole post
be generalized in an attempt to come up with a successful recovery "formula" for all the victims of the abusers......but,..empathetic, compassionate, non-judgemental dialogue with other victims and sympathetic non-victims can lead to inividual understanding of the "nature of the predator".....that's why i say ....keep posting!!.....that's why a forum like this can be so helpful and healing for all parties involved, so that individual and even "collective" recovery is encouraged and gently nurtured.....so that, as both you and Groucho point out.....each individual can get to the point of forgiving him or her self!!.....that's why it's so important for us to keep posting the facts so that the various individual victims can realize "it was'nt their fault"!!.....it was and is the nature of the beast that got 'em.......love and truth only hurt the the haters and the liars......that's why i post.....to continue to expose those lyin', thievin'; weasels for what they are today.....not just what they were...'cuz they have not changed!!.....but, by the grace of god and the compassion of christ.....or maybe by the persistent, determined will of simple human dignity.....WE HAVE!!.......and we continue in the pursuit of our bliss while they wallow in the depravity of their doctrinal and practical perversions.
Groucho....."because they have not apologized or even acknowledge they did something wrong, i hold them in low regard."....."but just because they don' want my forgiveness, it does'nt mean i can't dump my bitterness. i loathe them for being the squirmy little insect that landed in the potato salad of my life..but at this point it's more of a detached emotion..it's a calm opinion rather than an emotional outrage. i forgave myself for being duped by cornfield vic....."......AMEN BRO!.....me too!!.....
And therein lies the problem I see that happens on GS repeatedly. Some of the "forgive them" group use it as a weapon against the poor women who have been raped by VPW, or the poor men he did a "vasectomy" on
It is not used as a helpful tool in healing but rather, AGAIN, another way to clobber the victim (How dare they talk about VP like this!!! I can't get them to shut up, so let's shame them into it. Ummmm if they forgave ---- then they would not still be talking about this stuff.... yeah, let's go that way.)
There have been people, who did forgive TWI and have moved on with their lives, but they still render the tattooed numbers on their arms to show they have been in the camps (so-to-speak). They speak and tell people "Danger, Danger, warning Dr. Smith" (borrowed from Lost in Space)
Or they put up a road sign warning of a danger ahead. Because they will talk about it, does not mean they have not forgiven, it means they LOVE enough to continue to warn and show people TWI was a hurtful mechanism in our lives. The VP apologist need for them to shut up as well, so they come in and NO YOU HAVE NOT forgiven or you would not continue to discuss "The evils of TWI" You would throw it away - as far as the east is from the west and remember it no more.
It sounds to me like those demons, errr people, want the dark stuff to remain a secret so they can go on doing the same harmful things and continue the work of VPW.
In helping in a rape center, believe me, part of the healing is to speak about it, be validated and then recognize it WAS NOT your fault. I think the same applies with many other figurative "rapes". So, when I see people "attack" a victim when they finally, or again, muster the courage to speak, it is HARMFUL, non-healing, cult like, mean behavior, spoken again to leave the dark things thrive in the dark and SHAME the nonresponsible victims into silence, unwarranted guilt and shame (destroying them)
Now, we can look at forgiveness as a productive healthy tool -- but I rarely see that "forgiveness" ever being offered to the posters here.
Instead, it is the f-you, you haven't forgiven my hero, therefore YOU are "once again" the problem -- forgiveness weapon used to bludgeon.
I don't feel compelled to forgive them either......nor do I see it as affecting me one way or another. Each and every day that twi wallows in its own stench of wickedness, bondage, legalism, arrogance, etc.......only confirms my rightful actions of leaving that cesspool. Sure, I think that, at times, I should have left by 1980.....but then, that would have totally changed the dynamics of my life and the family I have today.
My main reason for coming to GS is to warn others.....and share of my experiences. And, as former corps and clergy, it is distasteful to see that my years of faithfulness to live "God's Word" were, in fact, facilitating twi's leveraging of legalism and sowing of wickedness and covetousness. Therefore, I am committed to STAND ON THE TOWERS OF GS and warn others of the devices of twi and its offshoots.
I believe that each one of us adds a unique piece of the puzzle that, in turn, helps others.
And, to me...........the puzzle is nearing completion, except for a few missing pieces around wierwille's eyes and hands.
It sounds to me like those demons, errr people, want the dark stuff to remain a secret so they can go on doing the same harmful things and continue the work of VPW.
Maybe they want the same kind of worship and adoration that herr vicmeister managed to rustle up..
I think a lot of us worshipped a friggin devil..
covered himself in a wardrobe of light.. "borrowed" from somebody who didn't need it or something..
There have been people, who did forgive TWI and have moved on with their lives, but they still render the tattooed numbers on their arms to show they have been in the camps (so-to-speak). They speak and tell people "Danger, Danger, warning Dr. Smith" (borrowed from Lost in Space)
Or they put up a road sign warning of a danger ahead. Because they will talk about it, does not mean they have not forgiven, it means they LOVE enough to continue to warn and show people TWI was a hurtful mechanism in our lives. The VP apologist need for them to shut up as well, so they come in and NO YOU HAVE NOT forgiven or you would not continue to discuss "The evils of TWI" You would throw it away - as far as the east is from the west and remember it no more.
Now, we can look at forgiveness as a productive healthy tool -- but I rarely see that "forgiveness" ever being offered to the posters here.
forgiveness weapon used to bludgeon.
Great insight, this thread has me thinking, praying, and going to the Bible for answers. I agree with you Dot, "forgiveness doctrine" should never be used as a weapon against victims who can and should be encouraged to speak up, tell their stories, warn others and realize that we/they are not the only ones who have been through what they have been through.
Speaking up and exposing evil is so important. The doctrine that TWI promolgated about the "lockbox" has kept so many bound up with garbage on the inside and no way to release it. It just stays and festers and promotes continued bondage. You don't heal a bullet wound by just sewing up the wound and leaving the bullet inside, it has to be removed before the wound can heal. It is good and healthy, kathartic, to expose wrongs and to warn others of the dangers. GS has helped many who may have been "recruited" to join TWI realize that it is not a healthy organization and so avoid joining it, and others who are "in" can see that there is "life" after TWI and that what they are being told or probably more so "not told" by leadership is not the whole story. This is a healthy service that GS provides. Everyone who has been through TWI in whatever version should be encouraged to tell their story. It is healthy and important. It benefits the one telling and the one hearing.
The other side of this, or maybe not so much the other side but a completely different side, I believe, is that forgiveness(not silence, not keeping it all in) is healthy, not only is it healthy but necessary. Please, understand my heart, I'm not trying to use this as a "weapon to bludgeon", but as a step of faith, to receiving healing and having a powerful prayer life. Forgiveness does not equal silence.
Mark 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.
It seems clear to me that "anything against anyone" means that forgiveness is required. Forgive in this verse is present imperative active. It says, while you're praying, forgive.
I stand here today, on the other side of a twenty year process. The more grievous the wrong, the more grace needed. But I trust that Jesus would never command us to do something that he wouldn't provide the ability to do. I've stood over and over again at various altars and during church sevices mouthing the words, "I forgive xxxxx" begging God for the "feeling" of forgiveness to overtake the feelings of hurt that I had. Praise God that He is faithful. It's a supernatural miracle of God to receive the grace to forgive. It's a miracle of healing, who does the miracle? I provided the desire and He provided the power. It wasn't a one-time thing either.
I thank God for healthy spirit-filled churches and healthy teachers and preachers of the Word of God who have led me in service after service to give all the hurt, betrayal, shame, anger, despair and everything else and allow the power of God to forgive to overcome. This is not just a TWI issue. So many Christians have been hurt and wounded and betrayed by leaders they once trusted. So many Christians still have "the bullets" of past hurts inside and never step in to the supernatural power of God to heal, physically, mentally and spiritually.
This is why we must never forget, why we must continue to warn:
Ezekiel 3:17-21
v17. Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
v18. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thouu givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
v19. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast deliverd thy soul.
v20. Again, When a rightesous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
v21. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.
v2. Son of man, speak to the children of they people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
v3. If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
v4. Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
v5. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
v6. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
v7. So, thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
The next few verses repeat the verses in Ezekiel 3 that have already been posted.
Twice! He repeats the same warning twice.
Don't even try to silence me if I see evil - it won't bode well for anyone...
I loved your post, wrdsandwrks. What gentle, loving, godly encouragement you bring to these forums. Thank you for that.
Dot, you are correct in saying we should never use "just forgive them" as a weapon, in an effort to excuse or diminish or cover up the sins of people who have committed wrongs against God's precious ones. I'm sure you recognize, though, that not everyone who speaks in favor of forgiveness is doing that. There is a time for warning and there is a time for forgiving and a time for healing. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.
Actually, I think very little bludgeoning has gone on in this thread; I'll grant you that hasn't always been the case in the past when the topic of forgiveness has been brought up. I also think that means we are making progress!!
In my opinion, this might be the most constructive thread on the subject of forgiveness that I've ever read on GS, and I'm thankful to everyone who has contributed so far for keeping the discussion--which in the past has so often been knocked off the tracks by angry words, hurt feelings, and misunderstandings--loving and rational and civil.
So back to the subject of forgiveness (sorry for my momentary departure)...
There is no timetable given for getting to the place where "when you pray, forgive," is to happen. So it cannot be demanded by anyone person. There is a process that only God and a person can go through together.
There is a cleansing that happens when forgiveness is asked for and granted. (As Groucho stated already.)
When a person knows they done wrong and then asks forgiveness, it is a very humbling experience. There's a big difference between saying, "I'm sorry," and saying, "I was wrong will you forgive me." The first statement just speaks of how the wrondoer feels. The second statement puts the power and control in the hands of the wronged person.
I have found myself in the position of responding to a request for forgiveness, "I'm not ready just yet." Usually in a case like this, I have to work through some very deep soul searching issues and maybe even ask some questions. THAT builds a relationship. THAT brings reconciliation.
Actually, I think very little bludgeoning has gone on in this thread; I'll grant you that hasn't always been the case in the past when the topic of forgiveness has been brought up. I also think that means we are making progress!!
Hi folks!......back for some espresso today.....thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread........it has become a really nice "read" so far and refreshingly stimulating......that's why i'm having the espresso today..........hehehe.
wrdsandwrks......."this is not just a twi issue. so many christians have been hurt and wounded and betrayed by leaders they once trusted
so many christians still have 'the bullets' of past hurt inside and never step into the supernatural power of god to heal, physically, mentally and spiritually".....eloquent and poignant post wrdsandwrks.........not only is this not "just a twi issue", it's not just a christian issue either!.....it's an issue for all human beings which transects all religions and non-religiions.......it is a human life issue..and, yes,....unfortunately , millions of "bullets" have gone unremoved and fester still in so many lives.
i have long thought that christians who seek to do the things our lord did and carry on in his teachings have a distinct responsibility to bear the good fruit of god's holy seed in us......after all it is holy spirit.........but our responsibility is not just to cultivate and share this fruit amongst ourselves.....we must share it with the world as christ did......it is not just a "household" chore but a calling to serve the world the bread of life.........imo...........christianity has been arrogantly selective regarding it's choices of whom to help by limitting the "pool of the needy" to mostly fellow believers......prioritizing doctrine, theology and denominational fractionism over simply trying to do the things christ did REGARDLESS OF THE VENUE........our greatest witness is not in what we know or say, but, rather in what we do for, to and with our fewllow humans.......yet, a vast number of christrians spend more time condemning, judging and bashing each other than they do bearing and sharing the fruit of that precious seed which cost jesus christ his life at calvary.....god's gift to us makes us the most capable people in the world at helping others, yet, we let the tares of hatred, mammon, prejudice, rascism and intolerance choke that "good seed" from bearing it's fruit!.....it's not our job to prove to the world that we're "right"........it's our "job" to to demonstrate to the world that christ lives by reaching out to a mankind starving for love, validation and meaningfulness.
And NO!!......i'm not talking about "word over the world"....but, rather..."word living in the midst of the world"!........i don't care if mother theresa was a doubting roman catholic nun......neither did those dying in the streets of callcutta.......she displayed god's seed in her, she did'nt debate it with people........i don't care what she believed or did'nt believe!!.......i saw the living christ in what she DID!..........i truly agree that many christians have taken "the bullets"........but so have many non-christians........there sholuld be enough fruit to go around once all the shouting stops!!!
Sorry for the rant.......i guess i should stay away from that espresso, eh???
........our greatest witness is not in what we know or say, but, rather in what we do for, to and with our fewllow humans.......yet, a vast number of christrians spend more time condemning, judging and bashing each other than they do bearing and sharing the fruit of that precious seed which cost jesus christ his life at calvary.....god's gift to us makes us the most capable people in the world at helping others, yet, we let the tares of hatred, mammon, prejudice, rascism and intolerance choke that "good seed" from bearing it's fruit!.....it's not our job to prove to the world that we're "right"........it's our "job" to to demonstrate to the world that christ lives by reaching out to a mankind starving for love, validation and meaningfulness.
And NO!!......i'm not talking about "word over the world"....but, rather..."word living in the midst of the world"!........i don't care if mother theresa was a doubting roman catholic nun......neither did those dying in the streets of callcutta.......she displayed god's seed in her, she did'nt debate it with people........i don't care what she believed or did'nt believe!!.......i saw the living christ in what she DID!..........i truly agree that many christians have taken "the bullets"........but so have many non-christians........there sholuld be enough fruit to go around once all the shouting stops!!!
Sorry for the rant.......i guess i should stay away from that espresso, eh???
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' wo
Linda Z
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize"
rascal
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... becaus
doojable
Maybe its because you can't post and stick out your tongue at the same time. (referring to the avatar ;))
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excathedra
oh hell
the longer we wait for an apology
the longer life gets
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY DOOJ!........which by the way was the original title of one of our favorite beatles tunes!.....hehehe.........you crack me up girl!.........let me assure "y'all"......it's not the taste of the coffee here at the spot that's messin' with my touingue!.......i don't know how to make it stop!.......although without the toungue thing happenin'.......would'nt it seem presumptuous on my part to use al's pic ??..........LOL!
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doojable
Well then we will all live forever! ;)
Or at least until hell freezes over...
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rascal
Ok, I am speaking of a different verse...I will find it. Still doesn`t negate the verse I quoted from Luke.
When the scumbags repent and ask for forgiveness, then they will cease to be scum bags as far as I am concerned, and I will readily forgive them....untill then they are still nothing more than arrogant amoral creeps that continue enslaving and hurting people in God`s name.
Those who have not repented, who have not asked, have then not yet been forgiven by God. Since God for some reason doesn`t forgive without the prerequisite repentance and asking....... then I think that it is pretty audacious to think that I ought out guess God in what is the appropriate procedure.
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T-Bone
DWBH, I’m glad you’re still exposing those lyin’, thievin’ weasels!!!! You probably don’t remember me – but I remember talking to you on the phone – shortly after we left. I was still writing in my Corps journal [some habits are hard to break
] and noted talking to you and RumRunner one particular weekend - you spoke of the adultery and lies at HQ. And what stands out in my wife’s [Tonto] memory more than anything was me telling her how you sounded choked up after I said something like, “What are we going to do about friends…we’ve lost all our friends.” You don’t know how critical it was to our sanity and wading through the TWI bull$hi+ to be able to talk to you and other leadership who didn’t whitewash everything…Yo waitress - a round of cappuccino for all the friends I’ve gained at Grease Spot!!!!
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rascal
Dearest Excathedra, I am not waiting for an apology from any twi leader....to quote my favorite story book character...*THAT would be optimistic to the point of foolishness* :)
I certainly don`t feel like I need to forgive them either. The people who think we ought to forgive them generally follow up with ...now we have to stop talking about what they did, stop warning others of the danger they pose, stop analyzing their behavior for clue as to how to avoid falling for future snares set.
God is the only one who can work in their cold arrogant hearts....I leave it to him to bring them to a point where they seek repentance. In the meantime, I continue to view them with the same disdain and disgust that was recorded when Jesus addressing the pharacees and saducees, that took advantage of God`s people....shrug
Whited selpulchers,
I saw a neat thing on the history channel. According to this guide....that *whited* sepulchers (they are still in jeruselem cemetaries today) ...were painted white because the bodies contained within had died of contagious diseases...they were painted white to warn people not to get to close because of the ongoing chance of contamination.
These leaders Jesus was referring to....were all white and shiny on the outside...but were filled inside with the stenche of death and disease...putrid ....though nice and clean looking on the outside.....still capable of infecting one if they inadvertently approached too close.
That doesn`t sound like Jesus had a very forgiving attitude when referring to those poor saducees that just needed our forgiveness.
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Dot Matrix
I could not agree with you more, about your whole post
Thanks for sharing the whited selpulchers thingy
VERY interesting
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Dot Matrix
And therein lies the problem I see that happens on GS repeatedly. Some of the "forgive them" group use it as a weapon against the poor women who have been raped by VPW, or the poor men he did a "vasectomy" on
It is not used as a helpful tool in healing but rather, AGAIN, another way to clobber the victim (How dare they talk about VP like this!!! I can't get them to shut up, so let's shame them into it. Ummmm if they forgave ---- then they would not still be talking about this stuff.... yeah, let's go that way.)
There have been people, who did forgive TWI and have moved on with their lives, but they still render the tattooed numbers on their arms to show they have been in the camps (so-to-speak). They speak and tell people "Danger, Danger, warning Dr. Smith" (borrowed from Lost in Space)
Or they put up a road sign warning of a danger ahead. Because they will talk about it, does not mean they have not forgiven, it means they LOVE enough to continue to warn and show people TWI was a hurtful mechanism in our lives. The VP apologist need for them to shut up as well, so they come in and NO YOU HAVE NOT forgiven or you would not continue to discuss "The evils of TWI" You would throw it away - as far as the east is from the west and remember it no more.
It sounds to me like those demons, errr people, want the dark stuff to remain a secret so they can go on doing the same harmful things and continue the work of VPW.
In helping in a rape center, believe me, part of the healing is to speak about it, be validated and then recognize it WAS NOT your fault. I think the same applies with many other figurative "rapes". So, when I see people "attack" a victim when they finally, or again, muster the courage to speak, it is HARMFUL, non-healing, cult like, mean behavior, spoken again to leave the dark things thrive in the dark and SHAME the nonresponsible victims into silence, unwarranted guilt and shame (destroying them)
Now, we can look at forgiveness as a productive healthy tool -- but I rarely see that "forgiveness" ever being offered to the posters here.
Instead, it is the f-you, you haven't forgiven my hero, therefore YOU are "once again" the problem -- forgiveness weapon used to bludgeon.
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Dot Matrix
PS
Einstein avitar
I have a peke whose tongue does not fit in her mouth either!
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skyrider
Well said, rascal.
I don't feel compelled to forgive them either......nor do I see it as affecting me one way or another. Each and every day that twi wallows in its own stench of wickedness, bondage, legalism, arrogance, etc.......only confirms my rightful actions of leaving that cesspool. Sure, I think that, at times, I should have left by 1980.....but then, that would have totally changed the dynamics of my life and the family I have today.
My main reason for coming to GS is to warn others.....and share of my experiences. And, as former corps and clergy, it is distasteful to see that my years of faithfulness to live "God's Word" were, in fact, facilitating twi's leveraging of legalism and sowing of wickedness and covetousness. Therefore, I am committed to STAND ON THE TOWERS OF GS and warn others of the devices of twi and its offshoots.
I believe that each one of us adds a unique piece of the puzzle that, in turn, helps others.
And, to me...........the puzzle is nearing completion, except for a few missing pieces around wierwille's eyes and hands.
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Ham
Maybe they want the same kind of worship and adoration that herr vicmeister managed to rustle up..
I think a lot of us worshipped a friggin devil..
covered himself in a wardrobe of light.. "borrowed" from somebody who didn't need it or something..
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Dot Matrix
Ham
ROTFL
And yet this is so revealing - to see it written out, ya know?
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wrdsandwrks
Great insight, this thread has me thinking, praying, and going to the Bible for answers. I agree with you Dot, "forgiveness doctrine" should never be used as a weapon against victims who can and should be encouraged to speak up, tell their stories, warn others and realize that we/they are not the only ones who have been through what they have been through.
Speaking up and exposing evil is so important. The doctrine that TWI promolgated about the "lockbox" has kept so many bound up with garbage on the inside and no way to release it. It just stays and festers and promotes continued bondage. You don't heal a bullet wound by just sewing up the wound and leaving the bullet inside, it has to be removed before the wound can heal. It is good and healthy, kathartic, to expose wrongs and to warn others of the dangers. GS has helped many who may have been "recruited" to join TWI realize that it is not a healthy organization and so avoid joining it, and others who are "in" can see that there is "life" after TWI and that what they are being told or probably more so "not told" by leadership is not the whole story. This is a healthy service that GS provides. Everyone who has been through TWI in whatever version should be encouraged to tell their story. It is healthy and important. It benefits the one telling and the one hearing.
The other side of this, or maybe not so much the other side but a completely different side, I believe, is that forgiveness(not silence, not keeping it all in) is healthy, not only is it healthy but necessary. Please, understand my heart, I'm not trying to use this as a "weapon to bludgeon", but as a step of faith, to receiving healing and having a powerful prayer life. Forgiveness does not equal silence.
Mark 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.
It seems clear to me that "anything against anyone" means that forgiveness is required. Forgive in this verse is present imperative active. It says, while you're praying, forgive.
I stand here today, on the other side of a twenty year process. The more grievous the wrong, the more grace needed. But I trust that Jesus would never command us to do something that he wouldn't provide the ability to do. I've stood over and over again at various altars and during church sevices mouthing the words, "I forgive xxxxx" begging God for the "feeling" of forgiveness to overtake the feelings of hurt that I had. Praise God that He is faithful. It's a supernatural miracle of God to receive the grace to forgive. It's a miracle of healing, who does the miracle? I provided the desire and He provided the power. It wasn't a one-time thing either.
I thank God for healthy spirit-filled churches and healthy teachers and preachers of the Word of God who have led me in service after service to give all the hurt, betrayal, shame, anger, despair and everything else and allow the power of God to forgive to overcome. This is not just a TWI issue. So many Christians have been hurt and wounded and betrayed by leaders they once trusted. So many Christians still have "the bullets" of past hurts inside and never step in to the supernatural power of God to heal, physically, mentally and spiritually.
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doojable
This is why we must never forget, why we must continue to warn:
Ezekiel 3:17-21
v17. Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
v18. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thouu givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
v19. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast deliverd thy soul.
v20. Again, When a rightesous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
v21. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.
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doojable
More from Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 33:2-7:
v2. Son of man, speak to the children of they people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
v3. If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
v4. Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
v5. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
v6. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
v7. So, thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
The next few verses repeat the verses in Ezekiel 3 that have already been posted.
Twice! He repeats the same warning twice.
Don't even try to silence me if I see evil - it won't bode well for anyone...
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excathedra
thanks rascal
and all
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Linda Z
I loved your post, wrdsandwrks. What gentle, loving, godly encouragement you bring to these forums. Thank you for that.
Dot, you are correct in saying we should never use "just forgive them" as a weapon, in an effort to excuse or diminish or cover up the sins of people who have committed wrongs against God's precious ones. I'm sure you recognize, though, that not everyone who speaks in favor of forgiveness is doing that. There is a time for warning and there is a time for forgiving and a time for healing. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.
Actually, I think very little bludgeoning has gone on in this thread; I'll grant you that hasn't always been the case in the past when the topic of forgiveness has been brought up. I also think that means we are making progress!!
In my opinion, this might be the most constructive thread on the subject of forgiveness that I've ever read on GS, and I'm thankful to everyone who has contributed so far for keeping the discussion--which in the past has so often been knocked off the tracks by angry words, hurt feelings, and misunderstandings--loving and rational and civil.
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doojable
So back to the subject of forgiveness (sorry for my momentary departure)...
There is no timetable given for getting to the place where "when you pray, forgive," is to happen. So it cannot be demanded by anyone person. There is a process that only God and a person can go through together.
There is a cleansing that happens when forgiveness is asked for and granted. (As Groucho stated already.)
When a person knows they done wrong and then asks forgiveness, it is a very humbling experience. There's a big difference between saying, "I'm sorry," and saying, "I was wrong will you forgive me." The first statement just speaks of how the wrondoer feels. The second statement puts the power and control in the hands of the wronged person.
I have found myself in the position of responding to a request for forgiveness, "I'm not ready just yet." Usually in a case like this, I have to work through some very deep soul searching issues and maybe even ask some questions. THAT builds a relationship. THAT brings reconciliation.
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Dot Matrix
I agree with the above :)
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi folks!......back for some espresso today.....thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread........it has become a really nice "read" so far and refreshingly stimulating......that's why i'm having the espresso today..........hehehe.
wrdsandwrks......."this is not just a twi issue. so many christians have been hurt and wounded and betrayed by leaders they once trusted
so many christians still have 'the bullets' of past hurt inside and never step into the supernatural power of god to heal, physically, mentally and spiritually".....eloquent and poignant post wrdsandwrks.........not only is this not "just a twi issue", it's not just a christian issue either!.....it's an issue for all human beings which transects all religions and non-religiions.......it is a human life issue..and, yes,....unfortunately , millions of "bullets" have gone unremoved and fester still in so many lives.
i have long thought that christians who seek to do the things our lord did and carry on in his teachings have a distinct responsibility to bear the good fruit of god's holy seed in us......after all it is holy spirit.........but our responsibility is not just to cultivate and share this fruit amongst ourselves.....we must share it with the world as christ did......it is not just a "household" chore but a calling to serve the world the bread of life.........imo...........christianity has been arrogantly selective regarding it's choices of whom to help by limitting the "pool of the needy" to mostly fellow believers......prioritizing doctrine, theology and denominational fractionism over simply trying to do the things christ did REGARDLESS OF THE VENUE........our greatest witness is not in what we know or say, but, rather in what we do for, to and with our fewllow humans.......yet, a vast number of christrians spend more time condemning, judging and bashing each other than they do bearing and sharing the fruit of that precious seed which cost jesus christ his life at calvary.....god's gift to us makes us the most capable people in the world at helping others, yet, we let the tares of hatred, mammon, prejudice, rascism and intolerance choke that "good seed" from bearing it's fruit!.....it's not our job to prove to the world that we're "right"........it's our "job" to to demonstrate to the world that christ lives by reaching out to a mankind starving for love, validation and meaningfulness.
And NO!!......i'm not talking about "word over the world"....but, rather..."word living in the midst of the world"!........i don't care if mother theresa was a doubting roman catholic nun......neither did those dying in the streets of callcutta.......she displayed god's seed in her, she did'nt debate it with people........i don't care what she believed or did'nt believe!!.......i saw the living christ in what she DID!..........i truly agree that many christians have taken "the bullets"........but so have many non-christians........there sholuld be enough fruit to go around once all the shouting stops!!!
Sorry for the rant.......i guess i should stay away from that espresso, eh???
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waysider
Heavens no!
Have another cup.
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skyrider
THAT'S why I like coming to Greasespot.
Thanks!
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socks
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