Yah, 70 times 7 just sounds like too much, at some point, enough's enough.
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Are you sure?
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Ya know Socks..
some people might be into that kind of thing..
I have forgiven some "brethren" for some pretty dispicable things.
But.. how many times do you let the same coyote raid the hen house?
His very nature DEMANDS that he consume poultry, if other suitable food isn't on the menu at the time..
maybe the particular poultry is a lot more easy to come by than their more physically fit cousins..
Even with "I'm sorry to have hurt your feelins".. let alone hurt your "flock", nothing's changed.
If I was the farmer, he'd probably meet up with the wrong end of a ten gague the second time.
Then I'd probably pray for his soul or something..
A false prophet, a false minister, by his or her very nature, will simply endeavor to deceive and rape the flock, figuratively or literally, whether sorry or not, whether "forgiven" or not. I think they are mindless about it, they don't think they did anything wrong.
Sometimes it may not be in one's power to sincerely offer forgiveness..
I Googled the expression "seventy times seven" because I figured it had to be a figure of speech. Several sites (representing a diverse bunch of denominations) said it's hyperbole. Makes sense to me. In other words, the answer to Peter's question was, "A LOT of times!!" Who's going to literally count to 490?
Rascal, I don't for a fraction of a second think any of us can or should tell God what to do. I don't see where anyone has said that. Please explain.
For those tired of carrying a load of guilt and shame, wondering what all the hubbub is over silly little details like remorse, repentance and forgiveness – start looking to the industry leader in unconscionable acts – send for the Indulgences R Us complete catalog today and relief is on the way!
Time for a commercial break…
Excerpts from The 2007 Indulgences R Us Catalog:
Page 1.Our Mission: To provide quality qualm abatement to the general public at a fair price…Our customers not only receive a certificate [hereafter referred to as "permit" or "document"] verifying they have participated in our qualm abatement program – but have all the resources of Indulgences R Us at their disposal...People can always spot one of our satisfied customers by the shameless look on their face. They'll know where you've been by the way you sin and grin. We've been taking care of consciences for over half a century.
***
Pages 2 through 487: Legalities & such. Standard agreement/contract details, payment schedules, industrial and philosophical jargon, legal shenanigans, release of liability forms, and assorted plagiarized material.
***
Page 488: Main List of Permits:
Presumptuous Sin – for the serious planner. Good for a one time occurrence. Call for current pricing.
Life-Dominating Sin – for the professional. A better value than the Presumptuous Sin Permit - for the repeat offender. Call for current pricing.
Two-for-One Sin sale on Adultery: A single permit is issued to a specific couple. If one of the partners is replaced the couple must apply for a new Two-for-One Sin Permit. Call for current pricing.
Collusion Sin – group packages available. Big seller with terrorists, mobsters, and cults. Call for current pricing.
Man-o-godSindrome: Our most comprehensive permit for the man who wants everything! Permit is transferable. Call for current pricing.
Smoke and Mirrors Sin: permit provides support to crisis-managers, newly appointed executives, fall guys, and heirs to the throne when dealing with past issues of associates or predecessors. Manipulation of truths behind the facts is accomplished at the sub-atomic level and can be costly but we're intent on staying competitively priced. Call for current pricing.
***
Page 2820. Have it your way. Fill out the personality and preferences questionnaire so our technicians can set the parameters on the Anti-Jiminy-Cricket 3000 System to match your character.
***
Page 2825. Preferred Mitigation Techniques. Choose any of the following conscience-adjustment programs. You may also write in your own or leave the whole thing totally up to us:
Drambui
Positive Affirmations
Cloak of Invisibility
Holographic simulation of snow on gas pumps with voice of God sound track
Seared with a Hot Iron – the technique preferred by most sadomasochists.
***
Page 2827…Frequently asked questions:
Question: Why do I need to get a permit from Indulgences R Us? I could do all this myself.
Answer: True. But along with the permit comes our time-saving techniques and experienced technical support staff. You will save money, time, energy, embarrassment and shame spent needlessly on the superfluous services of psychiatrists, ministers, priests, rabbis, gurus, counselors, mentors, confidants, friends & family, medications or alcohol. We are an all-in-one provider, eliminating the need for outsourcing – a One-stop Sin-shop.
***
Question: How can I be sure your system will work a year from now – this world is constantly changing?
Answer: We take great pride in our state-of-the-art technology, research staff and inventors of evil. We are the world leader in unscrupulous thought patterns – setting the standard for unconscionable acts.
***
Question: Will a permit from Indulgences R Us help me in a court of law?
Answer: The actual document will not. But frequent treatments from our Anti-Jiminy-Cricket 3000 System will enhance your ability to portray innocence on the witness stand. More than one satisfied customer has said, "I passed the Lie-Detector test with flying colors!"
***
Question: Is the cost of the permit tax-deductible?
Answer: Technically…no. But with our Anti-Jiminy-Cricket 3000 System you'll have no qualms doing so.
***
Question: Why do you ask customers to note a preferred mitigation technique?
Answer: At Indulgences R Us we would rather facilitate than motivate. Some customers have said our services/products so fire the imagination that the feeling is similar to being a little kid in a candy store. However, we respect each individual's personality, proclivities, belief system, values and delusions – and will tailor a program that is compatible with every category.
***
Question: Will the permit be destroyed if I take it to hell?
Answer: Every permit document undergoes an eternal state treatment – a proprietary process [plagiarism-pending] that renders the document impervious to repetitive gnashing of teeth, continuous weeping, and worm-borers and able to withstand temperatures up to 27,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit [15,000,255.4 Kelvin]. Bottom line is we do everything possible to make sure both you and your permit are ready for hell.
***
Question: I don't believe in hell – but am concerned about karma – can Indulgences R Us help me?
Answer: Yes. With our recent purchase of the rights to the Upaninad Minus Formula, a diligent research team translating ancient Purana Texts, and surgical disabling of the Sensory Input Memory Port you'll will no longer experience that vicious cycle. Surgery side effects are minimal – such as forgetting that a hot stove will burn your hand – but eventual scar tissue and callus build up significantly reduce the pain of such an event.
ROTFALMFAO!!!!!!!............T-Bone........did you write that???.......that is just too funny!!!!!!..........i'm still cleaning off my 'puter screen!!!.......thanks for that!!!!
the posts so far on this thread......imo.......have been fabulous!!!........thanks to all of you........looks like i'm just gonna have to have my java at this place on a regular basis..........thanks again everybody........keep 'em coming.........
Yup – I did Don't Don't[/b]]…there's something about Grease Spot that just inspires me . Well, you said so yourself with your comment on all the fabulous posts of this thread. This is a great place to think out loud – glad you came here!
Well Linda, I thought that it was pretty self explanetory...
God REQUIRES repentance and asking before he ever forgives...sometimes, as in the case of Jesus and Stephen, they asked for forgiveness on behalf of those who murdered them....
At any rate, he requires SOMEONE to ask, it would seem.
I am at a loss why someone would tell me that I ought to forgive without the prerequisit criteria being met any more than they would demand God wave the prerequisit of repentance and asking.....
I`ll forgive the skunks that hurt us when and if that criteria has been met.
If you think I am being hard hearted or mean..... Tell God he oughtta not be so mean either.
See, that's the thing that gives me pause, Rascal. We aren't God. I'm not convinced that the requirements are the same for getting forgiveness from God and getting forgiveness from each other. I still wonder whether God tells us to repent so that we can get our hearts right, and therefore be able to accept his forgiveness. It seems like apples and oranges, maybe. On a human to human level, I see where Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 X 7--i.e., a LOT of times.
And no, I don't think God is mean and hard-hearted at all.
For those tired of carrying a load of guilt and shame, wondering what all the hubbub is over silly little details like remorse, repentance and forgiveness – start looking to the industry leader in unconscionable acts – send for the Indulgences R Us complete catalog today and relief is on the way!
T-Bone, LOL.
If Indulgences R Us doesn't do it for you, you can always go to e-confession and receive virtual absolution:
Yeah...but you left out the part in that same verse that said IF he repent.....forgive 70 x7 I challeng you to read it in it`s entirety.
Jesus also told the desciples in Luke17:4 and if he tresspass against thee seven times in a day, (here is the important part) and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
I agree, we need to get our hearts right when we repent. I think the asking forgiveness comes naturally from a repentant heart.
Why would God forgive someone who hadn`t changed..someone who refused to ask???
Why should I??? What is it that makes it wrong for me to follow and apply the criteria that God requires?
God REQUIRES repentance and asking before he ever forgives...sometimes, as in the case of Jesus and Stephen, they asked for forgiveness on behalf of those who murdered them....
At any rate, he requires SOMEONE to ask, it would seem.
If this is true, then God can forgive someone without that person repenting, if the person/people who were wronged do the asking.
I have read about cases where the family of a murdered person forgave the murderer, with no sign of repentance or guilt admission on the part of the murderer.
I still think forgiveness is a gift, and a gift has no effect if the receiver rejects the gift. Of course we can still offer that gift and the opportunity to accept or reject it.
PRECISELY...it is a gift that WE can chose to give...as Jesus asked on behalf of those who cruified, and stephen asked on behalf of those whom stoned him...
But it isn`t required, it isn`t like we are bad for holding people to the required standard...if someone wants to do that....cool by me, but I`ll be darned if someone will twist the scriptures (not you ex) to make them say that I have to.
It is between them and God. My thought is that if they ever repent before God, they will be moved to apologize to us as well.
See, that's the thing that gives me pause, Rascal. We aren't God.
That's actually part of my point.. why would a person try to stand in the Lord's place, and try to forgive some of these scumbags for something that the Lord himself has a real issue with?
If He relegates these false prophets and such to "eternal" fire.. if you believe the bible literally.. or even if you soften it as a figure or something.. "a real, real bad trip".. or something equivalent..
How could I do better?
I may mouth the words "I forgive".. but do I really?
Or do I look at their real nature, and simply recognize and accept it for what it really is?
PRECISELY...it is a gift that WE can chose to give...as Jesus asked on behalf of those who cruified, and stephen asked on behalf of those whom stoned him...
But it isn`t required, it isn`t like we are bad for holding people to the required standard...if someone wants to do that....cool by me, but I`ll be darned if someone will twist the scriptures (not you ex) to make them say that I have to.
It is between them and God. My thought is that if they ever repent before God, they will be moved to apologize to us as well.
Okay, i guess we are pretty close. If we HAVE to give a gift to someone (forgiveness or otherwise) what meaning does it have?
Some of the best gifts I have received have been the unexpected and unrequired; the two of which usually go together. And of course they have been true gifts, from those not expecting something back.
I dunno.. I think it's a lot like the advice some give.. "just get over it.."
does a person, really?
I think a person can learn from it, provided they lived through it to begin with..
I have seen some interviews with people who lived through savage attacks from bears, sharks.. the most closure I've seen people experience is to just understand the nature of the predator.. that it wasn't their fault.. that the animal was simply behaving like those of it's kind have done for a millennium.
I think there's different levels of animosity. Some of us have been out of twi for nearly 20 years now...others have left twi more recently. Perhaps it's like comparing old scars to new wounds. Each person had their own level of participation...there's bound to be a mixed bag of opinions when it comes to forgiving those most complicit in that nasty little cult.
Bottom line...You have to live with yourself. Eventually, a person has to learn how to let go of the bitterness or suffer ulcers and high blood pressure...we call it "moving on with your life"...Because they have not apologized or even acknowledge that they did anything wrong, I hold them in low regard. They have not sought my forgiveness...it's here for them if they want it but they don't seem to want it...but just because they don't want my forgiveness, it doesn't mean that I can't dump my bitterness...I loath them for being the squirmy little insect that landed in the potato salad of life for me...but at this point, it's more of a detached emotion...it's a calm opinion rather than an emotional outrage. I forgave myself for being duped by Cornfield Vic and his band of merry pranksters...but as far as it goes, I haven't got any calls from king okie, rosie the riveter, or any of the ghouls that work for them...nope, no apologies
Forgiveness is for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven.
Still, a good old fashioned "I'm Sorry", wouldn't hurt and would make it a lot easier to set the process in motion.
Of course, saying "I'm sorry." implies that one has done something wrong and I am not sure they I have ever heard anyone in TWI do that in a heartfelt manner. (Which is quite different from a court oriented statement.)
Forgiveness is for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven.
I think it works both ways...if you've ever wronged someone and after a heartfelt apology, they forgave you...it's almost a cleansing experience because a burden has been lifted from you...you've been forgiven. I honestly think that there's benefit for both parties.
Until twi admits they were wrong they will not seek forgiveness...and their burden remains with them.
I think it works both ways...if you've ever wronged someone and after a heartfelt apology, they forgave you...it's almost a cleansing experience because a burden has been lifted from you...you've been forgiven. I honestly think that there's benefit for both parties.
Being one who likes to cut to the chase.....please forgive me for my concision.
Maybe just maybe, God knows how we are, and how we humans like to slice and dice and put conditions on things that God has made unconditional.
Maybe that's why we need Jesus. I don't know for sure, just guessing here. <_<
But it seems to me that Jesus has given us many examples, and words of wisdom, on the topic at hand. Maybe it's just up to us as individuals, who follow his lead, to work it out for our own selves? Maybe, he thinks that much of us.
Discussion on the topic is very good. Maybe that's what was intended in the first place. Jesus gives us the general parameters, and we strive to be as forgiving as he was/is? And we just work it out our own way with him? and others who are striving for the same goal? being more like him?
Hi again all you coffee drinkers!!........a few thoughts and comments.....
Mr.Hammeroni.......first, let me say that your posts are always so concise and to-the-point.....jocular or serious.....but consistently enjoyable....."i think a person can learn from it provided they lived through it to begin with"....."the most closure i've seen people experience is just to understand the nature of the predator".....i agree with you wholeheartedly.....the individual esperiences of those injured by their "leaders" cannot...imo...be generalized in an attempt to come up with a successful recovery "formula" for all the victims of the abusers......but,..empathetic, compassionate, non-judgemental dialogue with other victims and sympathetic non-victims can lead to inividual understanding of the "nature of the predator".....that's why i say ....keep posting!!.....that's why a forum like this can be so helpful and healing for all parties involved, so that individual and even "collective" recovery is encouraged and gently nurtured.....so that, as both you and Groucho point out.....each individual can get to the point of forgiving him or her self!!.....that's why it's so important for us to keep posting the facts so that the various individual victims can realize "it was'nt their fault"!!.....it was and is the nature of the beast that got 'em.......love and truth only hurt the the haters and the liars......that's why i post.....to continue to expose those lyin', thievin'; weasels for what they are today.....not just what they were...'cuz they have not changed!!.....but, by the grace of god and the compassion of christ.....or maybe by the persistent, determined will of simple human dignity.....WE HAVE!!.......and we continue in the pursuit of our bliss while they wallow in the depravity of their doctrinal and practical perversions.
Groucho....."because they have not apologized or even acknowledge they did something wrong, i hold them in low regard."....."but just because they don' want my forgiveness, it does'nt mean i can't dump my bitterness. i loathe them for being the squirmy little insect that landed in the potato salad of my life..but at this point it's more of a detached emotion..it's a calm opinion rather than an emotional outrage. i forgave myself for being duped by cornfield vic....."......AMEN BRO!.....me too!!.....and that's one of the reasons i'm glad you're still here groucho....to lend a hand to those who are struggling to let time heal their wounds through calm, yet compassionate dialogue.....factual.....honest.....loving.....and eventually.....healing!
So.....to all you "leaders".....you can lie to yourelves.....you can lie to one another.....you have and do lie to us......BUT GOD KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING.....HOW YOU PERSIST IN EVIL.....AND WE KNOW TOO!!.....AND YOU CAN'T EVER SHUT US UP AGAIN!!...........PEACE.
Rascal, I'm not trying to argue, nor am I attempting to "twist the Scriptures." I'm just tryiing to understand forgiveness better. Since you challenged me to do so, I read the verse in its context again, and I'm not seeing where Jesus said, "until seventy times seven IF he repents."
In the context of the whole parable, the servants did ask for patience, but I don't see where Jesus said that forgiveness is dependent upon repentance.
Matthew 18:
"21": Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
"22": Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
"23": Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
"24": And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
"25": But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
"26": The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
"27": Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
"28": But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
"29": And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
"30": And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
"31": So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
"32": Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
"33": Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
"34": And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
"35": So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Again, I don't see "if he repents."
The question and answer in this account pertain to forgiving a brother. I'm sure some among us don't think that applies to any of the twi leadership who have hurt people, but that's a whole different discussion.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
10
20
14
Popular Days
Sep 21
56
Sep 22
25
Sep 23
22
Sep 20
20
Top Posters In This Topic
Dot Matrix 15 posts
socks 10 posts
doojable 20 posts
DontWorryBeHappy 14 posts
Popular Days
Sep 21 2007
56 posts
Sep 22 2007
25 posts
Sep 23 2007
22 posts
Sep 20 2007
20 posts
Popular Posts
T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' wo
Linda Z
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize"
rascal
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... becaus
Ham
Ya know Socks..
some people might be into that kind of thing..
I have forgiven some "brethren" for some pretty dispicable things.
But.. how many times do you let the same coyote raid the hen house?
His very nature DEMANDS that he consume poultry, if other suitable food isn't on the menu at the time..
maybe the particular poultry is a lot more easy to come by than their more physically fit cousins..
Even with "I'm sorry to have hurt your feelins".. let alone hurt your "flock", nothing's changed.
If I was the farmer, he'd probably meet up with the wrong end of a ten gague the second time.
Then I'd probably pray for his soul or something..
A false prophet, a false minister, by his or her very nature, will simply endeavor to deceive and rape the flock, figuratively or literally, whether sorry or not, whether "forgiven" or not. I think they are mindless about it, they don't think they did anything wrong.
Sometimes it may not be in one's power to sincerely offer forgiveness..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
I Googled the expression "seventy times seven" because I figured it had to be a figure of speech. Several sites (representing a diverse bunch of denominations) said it's hyperbole. Makes sense to me. In other words, the answer to Peter's question was, "A LOT of times!!" Who's going to literally count to 490?
Rascal, I don't for a fraction of a second think any of us can or should tell God what to do. I don't see where anyone has said that. Please explain.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Paid advertisement:
For those tired of carrying a load of guilt and shame, wondering what all the hubbub is over silly little details like remorse, repentance and forgiveness – start looking to the industry leader in unconscionable acts – send for the Indulgences R Us complete catalog today and relief is on the way!
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
ROTFALMFAO!!!!!!!............T-Bone........did you write that???.......that is just too funny!!!!!!..........i'm still cleaning off my 'puter screen!!!.......thanks for that!!!!
the posts so far on this thread......imo.......have been fabulous!!!........thanks to all of you........looks like i'm just gonna have to have my java at this place on a regular basis..........thanks again everybody........keep 'em coming.........
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Yup – I did Don't Don't[/b]]…there's something about Grease Spot that just inspires me
. Well, you said so yourself with your comment on all the fabulous posts of this thread. This is a great place to think out loud – glad you came here!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well Linda, I thought that it was pretty self explanetory...
God REQUIRES repentance and asking before he ever forgives...sometimes, as in the case of Jesus and Stephen, they asked for forgiveness on behalf of those who murdered them....
At any rate, he requires SOMEONE to ask, it would seem.
I am at a loss why someone would tell me that I ought to forgive without the prerequisit criteria being met any more than they would demand God wave the prerequisit of repentance and asking.....
I`ll forgive the skunks that hurt us when and if that criteria has been met.
If you think I am being hard hearted or mean..... Tell God he oughtta not be so mean either.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
See, that's the thing that gives me pause, Rascal. We aren't God. I'm not convinced that the requirements are the same for getting forgiveness from God and getting forgiveness from each other. I still wonder whether God tells us to repent so that we can get our hearts right, and therefore be able to accept his forgiveness. It seems like apples and oranges, maybe. On a human to human level, I see where Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 X 7--i.e., a LOT of times.
And no, I don't think God is mean and hard-hearted at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
T-Bone, LOL.
If Indulgences R Us doesn't do it for you, you can always go to e-confession and receive virtual absolution:
http://www.absolution-online.com/confessional/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Yeah...but you left out the part in that same verse that said IF he repent.....forgive 70 x7 I challeng you to read it in it`s entirety.
Jesus also told the desciples in Luke17:4 and if he tresspass against thee seven times in a day, (here is the important part) and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
I agree, we need to get our hearts right when we repent. I think the asking forgiveness comes naturally from a repentant heart.
Why would God forgive someone who hadn`t changed..someone who refused to ask???
Why should I??? What is it that makes it wrong for me to follow and apply the criteria that God requires?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
just scanning..... scanning..... forgive me
god's NEVER does in my humble opinion and i thank him and jesus christ for that, i really do
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
If this is true, then God can forgive someone without that person repenting, if the person/people who were wronged do the asking.
I have read about cases where the family of a murdered person forgave the murderer, with no sign of repentance or guilt admission on the part of the murderer.
I still think forgiveness is a gift, and a gift has no effect if the receiver rejects the gift. Of course we can still offer that gift and the opportunity to accept or reject it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
PRECISELY...it is a gift that WE can chose to give...as Jesus asked on behalf of those who cruified, and stephen asked on behalf of those whom stoned him...
But it isn`t required, it isn`t like we are bad for holding people to the required standard...if someone wants to do that....cool by me, but I`ll be darned if someone will twist the scriptures (not you ex) to make them say that I have to.
It is between them and God. My thought is that if they ever repent before God, they will be moved to apologize to us as well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i know, raskie, thanks and hugs hugs hugs
this i could never, in a million years, know....
love,
ex
i will add (like i have said before, i think) i have cried over more than one casket, asking why someone didn't say they were sorry
but i still believe i don't know
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
That's actually part of my point.. why would a person try to stand in the Lord's place, and try to forgive some of these scumbags for something that the Lord himself has a real issue with?
If He relegates these false prophets and such to "eternal" fire.. if you believe the bible literally.. or even if you soften it as a figure or something.. "a real, real bad trip".. or something equivalent..
How could I do better?
I may mouth the words "I forgive".. but do I really?
Or do I look at their real nature, and simply recognize and accept it for what it really is?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
Okay, i guess we are pretty close. If we HAVE to give a gift to someone (forgiveness or otherwise) what meaning does it have?
Some of the best gifts I have received have been the unexpected and unrequired; the two of which usually go together. And of course they have been true gifts, from those not expecting something back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I dunno.. I think it's a lot like the advice some give.. "just get over it.."
does a person, really?
I think a person can learn from it, provided they lived through it to begin with..
I have seen some interviews with people who lived through savage attacks from bears, sharks.. the most closure I've seen people experience is to just understand the nature of the predator.. that it wasn't their fault.. that the animal was simply behaving like those of it's kind have done for a millennium.
The bible does call "them" brute beasts..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I think there's different levels of animosity. Some of us have been out of twi for nearly 20 years now...others have left twi more recently. Perhaps it's like comparing old scars to new wounds. Each person had their own level of participation...there's bound to be a mixed bag of opinions when it comes to forgiving those most complicit in that nasty little cult.
Bottom line...You have to live with yourself. Eventually, a person has to learn how to let go of the bitterness or suffer ulcers and high blood pressure...we call it "moving on with your life"...Because they have not apologized or even acknowledge that they did anything wrong, I hold them in low regard. They have not sought my forgiveness...it's here for them if they want it but they don't seem to want it...but just because they don't want my forgiveness, it doesn't mean that I can't dump my bitterness...I loath them for being the squirmy little insect that landed in the potato salad of life for me...but at this point, it's more of a detached emotion...it's a calm opinion rather than an emotional outrage. I forgave myself for being duped by Cornfield Vic and his band of merry pranksters...but as far as it goes, I haven't got any calls from king okie, rosie the riveter, or any of the ghouls that work for them...nope, no apologies
Edited by GrouchoMarxJrLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
IMO
Forgiveness is for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven.
Still, a good old fashioned "I'm Sorry", wouldn't hurt and would make it a lot easier to set the process in motion.
Of course, saying "I'm sorry." implies that one has done something wrong and I am not sure they I have ever heard anyone in TWI do that in a heartfelt manner. (Which is quite different from a court oriented statement.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I think it works both ways...if you've ever wronged someone and after a heartfelt apology, they forgave you...it's almost a cleansing experience because a burden has been lifted from you...you've been forgiven. I honestly think that there's benefit for both parties.
Until twi admits they were wrong they will not seek forgiveness...and their burden remains with them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yes, that's a very good point, Groucho.
I agree.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
So many posts, so little time. :B)
Being one who likes to cut to the chase.....please forgive me for my concision.
Maybe just maybe, God knows how we are, and how we humans like to slice and dice and put conditions on things that God has made unconditional.
Maybe that's why we need Jesus. I don't know for sure, just guessing here. <_<
But it seems to me that Jesus has given us many examples, and words of wisdom, on the topic at hand. Maybe it's just up to us as individuals, who follow his lead, to work it out for our own selves? Maybe, he thinks that much of us.
Discussion on the topic is very good. Maybe that's what was intended in the first place. Jesus gives us the general parameters, and we strive to be as forgiving as he was/is? And we just work it out our own way with him? and others who are striving for the same goal? being more like him?
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i don't really get into the bible much
and i'm not waiting for anyone's apologies
i'm just tryin' to get along in life
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
Hi again all you coffee drinkers!!........a few thoughts and comments.....
Mr.Hammeroni.......first, let me say that your posts are always so concise and to-the-point.....jocular or serious.....but consistently enjoyable....."i think a person can learn from it provided they lived through it to begin with"....."the most closure i've seen people experience is just to understand the nature of the predator".....i agree with you wholeheartedly.....the individual esperiences of those injured by their "leaders" cannot...imo...be generalized in an attempt to come up with a successful recovery "formula" for all the victims of the abusers......but,..empathetic, compassionate, non-judgemental dialogue with other victims and sympathetic non-victims can lead to inividual understanding of the "nature of the predator".....that's why i say ....keep posting!!.....that's why a forum like this can be so helpful and healing for all parties involved, so that individual and even "collective" recovery is encouraged and gently nurtured.....so that, as both you and Groucho point out.....each individual can get to the point of forgiving him or her self!!.....that's why it's so important for us to keep posting the facts so that the various individual victims can realize "it was'nt their fault"!!.....it was and is the nature of the beast that got 'em.......love and truth only hurt the the haters and the liars......that's why i post.....to continue to expose those lyin', thievin'; weasels for what they are today.....not just what they were...'cuz they have not changed!!.....but, by the grace of god and the compassion of christ.....or maybe by the persistent, determined will of simple human dignity.....WE HAVE!!.......and we continue in the pursuit of our bliss while they wallow in the depravity of their doctrinal and practical perversions.
Groucho....."because they have not apologized or even acknowledge they did something wrong, i hold them in low regard."....."but just because they don' want my forgiveness, it does'nt mean i can't dump my bitterness. i loathe them for being the squirmy little insect that landed in the potato salad of my life..but at this point it's more of a detached emotion..it's a calm opinion rather than an emotional outrage. i forgave myself for being duped by cornfield vic....."......AMEN BRO!.....me too!!.....and that's one of the reasons i'm glad you're still here groucho....to lend a hand to those who are struggling to let time heal their wounds through calm, yet compassionate dialogue.....factual.....honest.....loving.....and eventually.....healing!
So.....to all you "leaders".....you can lie to yourelves.....you can lie to one another.....you have and do lie to us......BUT GOD KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING.....HOW YOU PERSIST IN EVIL.....AND WE KNOW TOO!!.....AND YOU CAN'T EVER SHUT US UP AGAIN!!...........PEACE.
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Rascal, I'm not trying to argue, nor am I attempting to "twist the Scriptures." I'm just tryiing to understand forgiveness better. Since you challenged me to do so, I read the verse in its context again, and I'm not seeing where Jesus said, "until seventy times seven IF he repents."
In the context of the whole parable, the servants did ask for patience, but I don't see where Jesus said that forgiveness is dependent upon repentance.
Matthew 18:
"21": Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
"22": Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
"23": Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
"24": And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
"25": But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
"26": The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
"27": Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
"28": But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
"29": And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
"30": And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
"31": So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
"32": Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
"33": Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
"34": And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
"35": So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Again, I don't see "if he repents."
The question and answer in this account pertain to forgiving a brother. I'm sure some among us don't think that applies to any of the twi leadership who have hurt people, but that's a whole different discussion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.