I think any forgiveness I can give goes hand in hand with relationship. Since the relationship with those who treated us the worse in TWI has been severed and I have no desire or need to maintain any type of relationship with them, then no, I feel no need to forgive them. They were willing to use me like a tool, then toss me away like trash. They chose to treat me like yuck, and I was willing to let them for a time. I'm no longer willing.
There has to be respect in a relationship that I will willingly engage in, real respect, not phony 'household' respect. They didn't respect me back then when I was willing to have a relationship and willing to forgive...who needs that? Those relationships are over. They were ugly and unhealthy, even if they were coated in Bible verses.
If they were dying on the side of the road, yes I would help them--but that would not be not forgiveness, that would be kindness.There would be no relationship just because they were harmed and I was in a position to help.
Others, friends, family etc who mess up--that is a whole different situation. Those people care about me and I about them. Issues can be talked about and forgiveness is a natural as part of healing that rift.
I think it's appropriate to mention that not only have they not apologized, but they were/are guilty of some most heinous sins...
...gross sexual transgressions, misappropriation of money, callous disregard for those who served faithfully, manipulating people into serving them, and perhaps the worst of all...lying in God's name.
Like I said earlier...I would forgive them in a heartbeat if they genuinely apologized and acknowledged the wrongs...
...but the chances of that happening are about the same as OJ Simpson winning the Nobel Peace prize...so we move on with our lives...we put our pants on in the morning and we go to work...someday we'll die.
In the meantime, we do the best we can...the older I get, the more I find myself trusting God.
I think maybe there are a few things being addressed here:
Forgiveness in general - which is a good thing Christian thing. I am sorry but I wrecked your car and will pay for the damages
Forgiveness extended to people who never asked -- which to me seems optional. Such as we had a bully on the bus whom I have long since forgiven, we have seen forgiveness given which was not asked for, and perhaps forgiveness withheld because there was NO or not an honest repentance.
Forgiveness being USED as a chastizment - to once again place the victim in sillent bondage. "I was raped, I can finally talk about it." The response, "Have you forgiven them? Because that will set you free." There is a long road between the two cities. I was raped, denial, anger, self-hatrred, self blame, then to STOP being the victim one needs to place the blame on the responsible party (that is freeing)
And the confusion of some who see "disscussing a situation" as having never forgiven at all. "Such as VPW was a self-serving criminal." Perhaps long since forgiven, but just because he WAS forgiven does it change him from being a self-serving criminal? Naw... However, when mentioned some respond, "Well then, you have not forgiven him, or you would not bring it up."
I believe repentance should not be lost in the Christain walk. Maybe it is optional to the forgivee.... I may or may not forgive you, if you have of have not repented. Is repentance a requirement or an option?
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject.
The "I will forgive them if they apologize" theme comes up periodically around here. Personally, I think it gives too much power (in the potential forgiver's mind and heart) to the ones who have committed the wrongs. It puts the forgiver in the position of being dependent on the wrongdoer for the cue to act. No way do I want to rely on someone who has wronged me to determine in my own heart what to do. I want my actions to be entirely independent of theirs. Otherwise it seems to me like they still have too much importance in my life.
The current president of twi lied to me, manipulated situations affecting me and my future, and then trashed my reputation. I don't much like her, but if I forgive someone, that doesn't mean I have to like that person. It doesn't mean that I have to spend any time around that person. It certainly doesn't mean I have to lie down like a bath mat and let him or her walk on me one more time. T-Bone makes great distinctions between forgiveness and restoration, etc.
Waiting for an apology is, IMO, like taking too much luggage on a trip. After you've lugged it around the airport awhile, it gets heavier and more annoying. Then when you get to your destination, you discover that you didn't really need that extra dozen pairs of socks anyway and when you get ready to go home, you just have to pack that extra bag again and haul it around some more.
I think perhaps the reason God tells us to repent when seeking His forgiveness is because it's something we need to do to get our own heads right, not because he "has hurt feelings" and wants us to apologize before He'll forgive us. So the twi people who wronged me are the ones who would benefit from repenting, not me. I'm free to forgive or not forgive them regardless of what they do.
Forgiveness doesn't erase the past. It just helps us stop dragging the past around like a boulder.
In the Old Testament (somewhere in Deuteronomy) there is a description of the requirements for a slave being adopted as a bond servant.
He CHOOSES to give up what he has and then CHOOSES his master - out of love.
THAT is why I always have thought we "repent and renounce" our past and our sins...so that we are CHOOSING to let God be our Master and Jesus be our Lord. And Yes, I know that in reality we are just responding to His first act of love.
Yea, several points, that list breaks them out, Dot.
I'd consider extending forgiveness to all an option. Whether a person on the other end wants it or has responded
appropriately before, during or after is up to them. I do have the option to choose to forgive and work through that process on my own. With them, preferably.
There's some instances where it may only matter on a practical level to me at the time. When someone's dead or otherwise unavailable would be one.
The parable of the guy on the road being helped can be considered with others of Jesus's teachings. The question about who's my neighbor looks to define the relationship in loving others as I love myself. Who is that - friend, family, member of the synagogue? Someone I know, don't know? The answer defines it by how I respond - by being the neighbor to everyone, "loving" them. A stranger on the road is loved the same as someone I might know well. The people Jesus was talking to had a hypothetical relationship with his exampe, in that they would have had an aversion to Samaritans, and a reason to avoid contact with them. So His audience there may have had an intellectual and emotional hurdle to make to apply that. In a way though, it's offered as the only answer that makes sense - perhaps not in every situation - but overall, a way to craft your own behavior.
Jesus actually applies this in a form in the record of the "woman at the well", who was Samarian. Rather than refuse her as a stranger as well as a person other Jews of Jerusalem might feel obligated to avoid he engages her.
When Jesus tells Peter to forgive not many times, but 70 times 7 or whatever, He implies a wllingness to forgive another past the point it would seem worthwhile.
Not negating other points of this thread, but to add to it hopefully.
I dont ever remember that we were actualy taught on "Forgiving" within the Halls of Ivy (TWI)
I remember learning that God forgives us, but never heard it on tape or the in the Way mag, that we must forgive other's...I spent 1000's of hours in classes and reading..
So in light of that, I bet TWI will never appologize to anyone for the damage they caused to this part of the Body...I wonder if they have repented of thier actions to God,if so..Is this the only thing God requires of people to do?
I do think that it is more Godly to restore one...being there has been no action on thier part, how can they honestly serve God...if they could humble themselves to this...imagine what could happen if they did..
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... because it will make you feel better...it is required..if you don`t forgive, you are a big selfish meanie bu tt.
Isn`t that what you guys are saying that you require of me??
God said that when we repent (this seems to be required) and ask...he is faithfull and just to forgive us....
If one actually READS the 70 times 7 verse......it actually says IF they repent...seems like people always want to forget that part of the verse.
If one actually READS the 70 times 7 verse......it actually says IF they repent...seems like people always want to forget that part of the verse.
One would have to question if there is true repentance when the same sin gets repeated 70 X7 times...
BUT - I also see no commandment here. This is what I was taught regarding this verse - but I have no proof:
Apparently, the custom of the day (perhaps something set up by the Pharisees) was to forgive a person seven times. It could be that Peter was hoping to have this cut down to a smaller number. Instead Jesus expands the number - I'd say the teaching has more to do with grace and mercy than forgiveness - but then again, what do I know...?
If one actually READS the 70 times 7 verse......it actually says IF they repent...seems like people always want to forget that part of the verse.
But the fact that the person is "repenting" seven times, or 70 x 7 means, to me, that the person is not really repentant at all. Yet forgiveness is still God's desire for mankind.
As I see it the whole point of the parable is to understand the heart of God in wanting people to forgive others, as God has forgiven people. This is where God's grace and mercy comes to play. It's not always the formula "you must come to me and ask forgiveness".
As I see it the whole point of the parable is to understand the heart of God in wanting people to forgive others, as God has forgiven people. This is where God's grace and mercy comes to play. It's not always the formula "you must come to me and ask forgiveness".
Which is precisely why you cannot demand of anyone that they forgive another.
how to cook! ...and how to make others smile!
Thank you, Tom! For that you'll get seconds on dessert! ;)
How about the following verses? if these are not demanding (or commanding), or at least a statement of God's heart and what he wants us to do, I don't know what would be:
Mar 11:25 ¶ And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Well...yeah. provided that they seek repentance and ask forgivness...I wouldn`t argue that.
God sets out the guidelines for what is necessary in order to forgive....why did stephen ask God to forgive those who were killing him? Why did Jesus ask God to forgive those who didn`t know what they were doing???
I am assuming that otherwise the murderers wouldn`t be forgiven....it seems that God requires being asked before he grants it...whether from the sinner or the one sinned against....SOMEBODY has to ask before it forgivness is granted....shrug.
How about the following verses? if these are not demanding (or commanding), or at least a statement of God's heart and what he wants us to do, I don't know what would be:
Mar 11:25 ¶ And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
I don't really think there is anything that indicates that whether or not we should forgive someone depends on the nature of the sin. In practice, of course, it is easier for any of us to forgive someone for accidently bumping into us on an elevator or something than it is for some of the more grevious since we can all think of. It can be very very hard to forgive in fact...so I agree that I can't tell someone else they have to forgive someone for a particular wrong. (I'm not God, am I?)
Yah, 70 times 7 just sounds like too much, at some point, enough's enough.
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Are you sure?
Whack
Ow
Sorry
I wonder, and I'm not sure about this - but when Jesus speaks to Peter there, is He indeed "commanding", saying DO THIS or else your ears will fall off or something - or is He simply saying, "Do this", Peter. If I were you, if it were Me (did he capitalize Me? ...sorry) this is how you should live.
But then I read Matthew 18, and there's some specific cha-cha in there.
Repeated offenses - isn't that how the Christian views God's forgiveness? Over and over. Sorry, sorry sorry. The general state of how some people live is indeed sorry. Won't they ever learn? What if they're trying, really trying. Do one thing right here, another wrong there, again, again. Sorry. Again. Got it. Then something else. How many times does God's forgiveness extend itself? When does the well go dry?
Demand is a strong word - Jesus can't demand activity in a hypothetical situation. He can state how it "should" be handled, or "go and do likewise kiddo", but in practice - who knows how it plays out?
I think it's a great point too, Mr. Hammer - some things aren't mine to forgive. And doing so - in any case, I'm not completely sorted out on how that would apply to "sin" and "God"s view of anything. If I forgive someone, say awwww, let's settle this now - forget about it, we're good. I don't speak for God in that regard. That could very well be a different account. Jesus tells His followers they have binding authority at one point - do we? I have a lot of questions too, I guess.
Well...yeah. provided that they seek repentance and ask forgivness...I wouldn`t argue that.
Maybe I am not really that different on this. My take is that if God commands us to forgive, and we do it, that doesnt mean the person is forgiven. Forgiveness is a gift of mercy...and as any gift, it has to be accepted. And someone cannot accept a gift if they don't believe thay have done wrong. Maybe you can call it an offer of forgiveness.
Well...yeah. provided that they seek repentance and ask forgivness...I wouldn`t argue that.
That's not how I read the above verses. I don't see contrition as being a requirement for man to man forgiveness.
But the scripture says if one has ought against any, if one has a problem with any, one has a complaint, a problem. Doesn't say in those verses one way or the other whether the came asking for your forgiveness. But it stills says to forgive, otherwise, your sins will not be forgiven.
Man does not always express contrition. Maybe the man is dead, or blinded, or tricked, or fooled, or walking in darkness, or otherwise can't or doesn't see.
It must be a big deal to God to have it written in those threatening terms.
Maybe it comes down to this: I can forgive someone for how his/her sin or wrongdoing affects me, but it's still up to that person to repent before God. We're all still accountable to God regardless of how we work things out (or don't) between ourselves. I may be able to let someone off my hook, but I sure wouldn't have the right or the ability to let that person off God's hook!
Anyway...I think it would be interesting to study the Greek and Hebrew words for longsuffering and forbearance to see how they fit into the subject of people-to-people forgiveness.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
10
20
14
Popular Days
Sep 21
56
Sep 22
25
Sep 23
22
Sep 20
20
Top Posters In This Topic
Dot Matrix 15 posts
socks 10 posts
doojable 20 posts
DontWorryBeHappy 14 posts
Popular Days
Sep 21 2007
56 posts
Sep 22 2007
25 posts
Sep 23 2007
22 posts
Sep 20 2007
20 posts
Popular Posts
T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' wo
Linda Z
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize"
rascal
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... becaus
Bramble
I think any forgiveness I can give goes hand in hand with relationship. Since the relationship with those who treated us the worse in TWI has been severed and I have no desire or need to maintain any type of relationship with them, then no, I feel no need to forgive them. They were willing to use me like a tool, then toss me away like trash. They chose to treat me like yuck, and I was willing to let them for a time. I'm no longer willing.
There has to be respect in a relationship that I will willingly engage in, real respect, not phony 'household' respect. They didn't respect me back then when I was willing to have a relationship and willing to forgive...who needs that? Those relationships are over. They were ugly and unhealthy, even if they were coated in Bible verses.
If they were dying on the side of the road, yes I would help them--but that would not be not forgiveness, that would be kindness.There would be no relationship just because they were harmed and I was in a position to help.
Others, friends, family etc who mess up--that is a whole different situation. Those people care about me and I about them. Issues can be talked about and forgiveness is a natural as part of healing that rift.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I think it's appropriate to mention that not only have they not apologized, but they were/are guilty of some most heinous sins...
...gross sexual transgressions, misappropriation of money, callous disregard for those who served faithfully, manipulating people into serving them, and perhaps the worst of all...lying in God's name.
Like I said earlier...I would forgive them in a heartbeat if they genuinely apologized and acknowledged the wrongs...
...but the chances of that happening are about the same as OJ Simpson winning the Nobel Peace prize...so we move on with our lives...we put our pants on in the morning and we go to work...someday we'll die.
In the meantime, we do the best we can...the older I get, the more I find myself trusting God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Groucho
Teeheee
(The Oj thing)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
IMHO
I think maybe there are a few things being addressed here:
Forgiveness in general - which is a good thing Christian thing. I am sorry but I wrecked your car and will pay for the damages
Forgiveness extended to people who never asked -- which to me seems optional. Such as we had a bully on the bus whom I have long since forgiven, we have seen forgiveness given which was not asked for, and perhaps forgiveness withheld because there was NO or not an honest repentance.
Forgiveness being USED as a chastizment - to once again place the victim in sillent bondage. "I was raped, I can finally talk about it." The response, "Have you forgiven them? Because that will set you free." There is a long road between the two cities. I was raped, denial, anger, self-hatrred, self blame, then to STOP being the victim one needs to place the blame on the responsible party (that is freeing)
And the confusion of some who see "disscussing a situation" as having never forgiven at all. "Such as VPW was a self-serving criminal." Perhaps long since forgiven, but just because he WAS forgiven does it change him from being a self-serving criminal? Naw... However, when mentioned some respond, "Well then, you have not forgiven him, or you would not bring it up."
I believe repentance should not be lost in the Christain walk. Maybe it is optional to the forgivee.... I may or may not forgive you, if you have of have not repented. Is repentance a requirement or an option?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject.
The "I will forgive them if they apologize" theme comes up periodically around here. Personally, I think it gives too much power (in the potential forgiver's mind and heart) to the ones who have committed the wrongs. It puts the forgiver in the position of being dependent on the wrongdoer for the cue to act. No way do I want to rely on someone who has wronged me to determine in my own heart what to do. I want my actions to be entirely independent of theirs. Otherwise it seems to me like they still have too much importance in my life.
The current president of twi lied to me, manipulated situations affecting me and my future, and then trashed my reputation. I don't much like her, but if I forgive someone, that doesn't mean I have to like that person. It doesn't mean that I have to spend any time around that person. It certainly doesn't mean I have to lie down like a bath mat and let him or her walk on me one more time. T-Bone makes great distinctions between forgiveness and restoration, etc.
Waiting for an apology is, IMO, like taking too much luggage on a trip. After you've lugged it around the airport awhile, it gets heavier and more annoying. Then when you get to your destination, you discover that you didn't really need that extra dozen pairs of socks anyway and when you get ready to go home, you just have to pack that extra bag again and haul it around some more.
I think perhaps the reason God tells us to repent when seeking His forgiveness is because it's something we need to do to get our own heads right, not because he "has hurt feelings" and wants us to apologize before He'll forgive us. So the twi people who wronged me are the ones who would benefit from repenting, not me. I'm free to forgive or not forgive them regardless of what they do.
Forgiveness doesn't erase the past. It just helps us stop dragging the past around like a boulder.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
In the Old Testament (somewhere in Deuteronomy) there is a description of the requirements for a slave being adopted as a bond servant.
He CHOOSES to give up what he has and then CHOOSES his master - out of love.
THAT is why I always have thought we "repent and renounce" our past and our sins...so that we are CHOOSING to let God be our Master and Jesus be our Lord. And Yes, I know that in reality we are just responding to His first act of love.
"For God so loved the world..."
Okay, now I may have screwed this thread up...
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Yea, several points, that list breaks them out, Dot.
I'd consider extending forgiveness to all an option. Whether a person on the other end wants it or has responded
appropriately before, during or after is up to them. I do have the option to choose to forgive and work through that process on my own. With them, preferably.
There's some instances where it may only matter on a practical level to me at the time. When someone's dead or otherwise unavailable would be one.
The parable of the guy on the road being helped can be considered with others of Jesus's teachings. The question about who's my neighbor looks to define the relationship in loving others as I love myself. Who is that - friend, family, member of the synagogue? Someone I know, don't know? The answer defines it by how I respond - by being the neighbor to everyone, "loving" them. A stranger on the road is loved the same as someone I might know well. The people Jesus was talking to had a hypothetical relationship with his exampe, in that they would have had an aversion to Samaritans, and a reason to avoid contact with them. So His audience there may have had an intellectual and emotional hurdle to make to apply that. In a way though, it's offered as the only answer that makes sense - perhaps not in every situation - but overall, a way to craft your own behavior.
Jesus actually applies this in a form in the record of the "woman at the well", who was Samarian. Rather than refuse her as a stranger as well as a person other Jews of Jerusalem might feel obligated to avoid he engages her.
When Jesus tells Peter to forgive not many times, but 70 times 7 or whatever, He implies a wllingness to forgive another past the point it would seem worthwhile.
Not negating other points of this thread, but to add to it hopefully.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
70 x 7 is what convinced me that forgiveness is always possible, despite the unrepentant.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
I dont ever remember that we were actualy taught on "Forgiving" within the Halls of Ivy (TWI)
I remember learning that God forgives us, but never heard it on tape or the in the Way mag, that we must forgive other's...I spent 1000's of hours in classes and reading..
So in light of that, I bet TWI will never appologize to anyone for the damage they caused to this part of the Body...I wonder if they have repented of thier actions to God,if so..Is this the only thing God requires of people to do?
I do think that it is more Godly to restore one...being there has been no action on thier part, how can they honestly serve God...if they could humble themselves to this...imagine what could happen if they did..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... because it will make you feel better...it is required..if you don`t forgive, you are a big selfish meanie bu tt.
Isn`t that what you guys are saying that you require of me??
God said that when we repent (this seems to be required) and ask...he is faithfull and just to forgive us....
If one actually READS the 70 times 7 verse......it actually says IF they repent...seems like people always want to forget that part of the verse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
One would have to question if there is true repentance when the same sin gets repeated 70 X7 times...
BUT - I also see no commandment here. This is what I was taught regarding this verse - but I have no proof:
Apparently, the custom of the day (perhaps something set up by the Pharisees) was to forgive a person seven times. It could be that Peter was hoping to have this cut down to a smaller number. Instead Jesus expands the number - I'd say the teaching has more to do with grace and mercy than forgiveness - but then again, what do I know...?
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
how to cook! ...and how to make others smile!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
But the fact that the person is "repenting" seven times, or 70 x 7 means, to me, that the person is not really repentant at all. Yet forgiveness is still God's desire for mankind.
As I see it the whole point of the parable is to understand the heart of God in wanting people to forgive others, as God has forgiven people. This is where God's grace and mercy comes to play. It's not always the formula "you must come to me and ask forgiveness".
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Which is precisely why you cannot demand of anyone that they forgive another.
Thank you, Tom! For that you'll get seconds on dessert! ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Perhaps it depends on the nature of the "sin".
A brother, otherwise nice guy.. steps on my toes.. no big deal.
But, I don't see any biblical basis to forgive a false prophet or false minister for anything.
Or a "whoremonger".. "unclean".. etc, etc..
I think their forgiveness depends on something a lot bigger than me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Yes, I cannot. But Jesus can, and did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Demand? Really?
Give me some verses - cuz I just don't see what you're saying...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Doojable, its FRIDAY. FRIDAY.
the day before the WEEKEND.
How about the following verses? if these are not demanding (or commanding), or at least a statement of God's heart and what he wants us to do, I don't know what would be:
Mar 11:25 ¶ And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well...yeah. provided that they seek repentance and ask forgivness...I wouldn`t argue that.
God sets out the guidelines for what is necessary in order to forgive....why did stephen ask God to forgive those who were killing him? Why did Jesus ask God to forgive those who didn`t know what they were doing???
I am assuming that otherwise the murderers wouldn`t be forgiven....it seems that God requires being asked before he grants it...whether from the sinner or the one sinned against....SOMEBODY has to ask before it forgivness is granted....shrug.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
I don't really think there is anything that indicates that whether or not we should forgive someone depends on the nature of the sin. In practice, of course, it is easier for any of us to forgive someone for accidently bumping into us on an elevator or something than it is for some of the more grevious since we can all think of. It can be very very hard to forgive in fact...so I agree that I can't tell someone else they have to forgive someone for a particular wrong. (I'm not God, am I?)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Yah, 70 times 7 just sounds like too much, at some point, enough's enough.
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Whack
Ow
Sorry
Are you sure?
Whack
Ow
Sorry
I wonder, and I'm not sure about this - but when Jesus speaks to Peter there, is He indeed "commanding", saying DO THIS or else your ears will fall off or something - or is He simply saying, "Do this", Peter. If I were you, if it were Me (did he capitalize Me?
...sorry) this is how you should live.
But then I read Matthew 18, and there's some specific cha-cha in there.
Repeated offenses - isn't that how the Christian views God's forgiveness? Over and over. Sorry, sorry sorry. The general state of how some people live is indeed sorry. Won't they ever learn? What if they're trying, really trying. Do one thing right here, another wrong there, again, again. Sorry. Again. Got it. Then something else. How many times does God's forgiveness extend itself? When does the well go dry?
Demand is a strong word - Jesus can't demand activity in a hypothetical situation. He can state how it "should" be handled, or "go and do likewise kiddo", but in practice - who knows how it plays out?
I think it's a great point too, Mr. Hammer - some things aren't mine to forgive. And doing so - in any case, I'm not completely sorted out on how that would apply to "sin" and "God"s view of anything. If I forgive someone, say awwww, let's settle this now - forget about it, we're good. I don't speak for God in that regard. That could very well be a different account. Jesus tells His followers they have binding authority at one point - do we? I have a lot of questions too, I guess.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
Maybe I am not really that different on this. My take is that if God commands us to forgive, and we do it, that doesnt mean the person is forgiven. Forgiveness is a gift of mercy...and as any gift, it has to be accepted. And someone cannot accept a gift if they don't believe thay have done wrong. Maybe you can call it an offer of forgiveness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
That's not how I read the above verses. I don't see contrition as being a requirement for man to man forgiveness.
But the scripture says if one has ought against any, if one has a problem with any, one has a complaint, a problem. Doesn't say in those verses one way or the other whether the came asking for your forgiveness. But it stills says to forgive, otherwise, your sins will not be forgiven.
Man does not always express contrition. Maybe the man is dead, or blinded, or tricked, or fooled, or walking in darkness, or otherwise can't or doesn't see.
It must be a big deal to God to have it written in those threatening terms.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Maybe it comes down to this: I can forgive someone for how his/her sin or wrongdoing affects me, but it's still up to that person to repent before God. We're all still accountable to God regardless of how we work things out (or don't) between ourselves. I may be able to let someone off my hook, but I sure wouldn't have the right or the ability to let that person off God's hook!
Anyway...I think it would be interesting to study the Greek and Hebrew words for longsuffering and forbearance to see how they fit into the subject of people-to-people forgiveness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.