My question t them is this: "how can i grant forgiveness to someone who vehemently denies he/she committed any offense?".from what i can see, god has no problem forgiving anyone for anything if that person chooses to repent.....this process of repentance seems to precede god's granting of forgiveness.........as a matter of fact, it seems to me that forgiveness is predicated upon repentance..........
Don't Worry Be Happy,
I see your point. However, as some have mentioned Stephen; I thought of the same man when I read your original post. For me, (and I only speak for myself) it comes down to not holding on to this the rest of my life. Some injustices have been laid against me by TWI leadership between 94-07, but I don't choose to hold on to it. They are clue-less and they will remain that way. I can't change their heart anymore than anyone else in here can. I just know for my own life I will follow Stephen's example. I'll forgive, I just won't forget.
Not everything I got from TWI was good, and yet not all of it was bad either. I learned a lot of great stuff from them, and I learned some pretty bad doctrines at the same time. To quote John Juedes who I spoke with, "It will take you years to sort all of that out." I believe him. Not everything I learned was wrong, and not everything I learned was right either. TWI imposed leagalism on me, and helped destroy a good portion of my self esteem (I didn't have to let them, so I take accountability for my part). However, they also helped set me free from error that was keeping me enslaved that I learned from another church. In the end I have some things to work through. I was treated poorly at times by TWI, and treated well at other times. I have come to the conclusion that TWI is not a healthy environment for my family or myself. However, I do believe that there are lots of born again christians in TWI that I want to be respecful to. I was one of them. I looked on this site for two years without any of you knowing my presence. This site and empirenet helped me realize some things concerning TWI. I'm thankful for both. But what kept me from pulling the trigger and leaving TWI at times is the little part none of your realize. "They actually read this site!!!" They actually use your own words against you!!! I can't tell you how many times I heard something like, "The people on the internet are hard hearted" or "They don't move past their" fill in the blank. I'm not telling anyone to forgive anyone.. But for me? I'm not giving TWI the power of my resentment and anger. I'll confess my anger to God and ask for his mercy to help heal my heart. I'll take part on this site because I feel you guys care about the people in TWI, or you wouldn't bother writing about them 20 years after the fact for some of you. You are some of the most caring people this world has.
In closing, if you have anger and need to let it out, please do. But lets not forget to share with people how this site has helped us heal as well. That's what people who are still in need to see. That there is life after TWI, that there is a relationship with God after TWI, that TWI doesn't hold all the knowledge of God, and most of all lets share with them that we have not lost that "HOPE" that God, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are still very much a huge part of our lives even after TWI.
Thanks for the reminder. Yes, there is life afer The Way, and it gets better and better the further away you get.
Dooj,
As usual, great insight. It relates also I think, to T-Bone's great insight about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation
I wonder how many of those observing the crucifixion that day became followers of Jesus after the resurrection.
Profound! W&W, Doojable, Agape99, TB and others! As someone mentioned in an earlier post, Stephen was, IMO, following his Lord with his last words on this planet. Who knows where Saul of Tarsus would have ended up, had Stephen not defrocked his own self-interest ("this really sux, and really hurts!") to intercede for the ignorant? Somehow it always gets back to relationship; ours with God and our Lord, Jesus, and with each other, not only IN the Body of Christ, but it is, according to Romans, the goodness and kindness of God that leads to repentance.
Takes a lot of wisdom to walk in this age and discern good from evil, truth from error. I'm grateful that God promised wisdom if we ask.
I believe in the god of justice.......i also believe that "what goes around comes around"..............i believe in forgiveness too............but the same way my heavenly father does...........throough the act of genuine repentance................soooo.................VP, LCM, CG, HA.\, DEW, ROSIE, DONNA, TWI and all you "OFFSHOOTS".......YOU OWE GOD AN APOLOGY.........YOU OWE US AN APOLOGY................THEN WE'LL FORGIVE YOU ALL...............peace be unto you.......
DontWorryBeHappy.......I agree with your assessment on forgiveness and that when "they" fess up and admit their doings and apologize, then "I" will forgive them. But as you pointed out, Martindale seems to believe that *he did nothing wrong*.... :blink: ....and therefore, is stopping short of God's reconciliation and restoration......and man's re-establishment of fellowship.
Although twi's trustees....i.e. major players....continues to plod along in their tight-lipped mode, the disgusting abuse has long been falling "out of their closets." And, some of twi's offshoots dish out nose-spider personal prophesies to keep the playing field slanted in their favor.......amazing, how many different ways there are to lord over God's heritage and take unfair advantage over the flock. But, for Rosie, Donna and the twi gang.....is this *silent treatment* a true refuge? Hardly. The inevitable justice of God's divine power will come into play at His choosing.
For their spiritual wholeness.......THEY NEED TO BARE THEIR WICKEDNESS BEFORE THE FATHER.
And, for their betterment........THEY OWE US ALL AN APOLOGY.
Whether they choose to own up to the truth of God's Word, that's the ball in their court. The Scriptures are SO clear on their erring, their forsaking the One True God.
Perhaps, we are witnessing the spiritual truth of those whose conscience is seared. Are they so engulfed in reprobate doings that they cannot find their way out of the snares?
Pigs will be ice skating in hel l the day any of the Way principals like Rosaliee apologize for anything from the past. Chances - slim to none. Expect the Devil to send God a Birthday card before that happens.
If they did, that would probably be a good thing but it wouldn't make anything difference, better or worse for me. Imagine the effect a fly spitting on my lawn would have, it would effect me slightly less either way, good or bad.
My wife likes to say "we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us".
I like to say "we left before I had a chance to get really mean with them".
It's better this way, believe me. But I understand the sentiments expressed here, I think, a little anyway. As far as any chance for any of them to "make it right" with me, I don't need it. I encourage everyone to make their own lives as right as they can, like you have BeHappy, and get on with it.
Look at it this way - You were in the Way. Now you're not.
You win.
They're still in the Way. They lose.
If you need revenge, they're living it. If you need to forgive, just do it. If you don't want to, don't. You win either way. Wash their dirty bodies down with the clean cool rain of your love. Just don't be surprised if they're filthy dirty again this time next week. Not much you can do about that.
I just had a discussion with my DH on the way back from dinner and a movie, about the definition of forgiveness biblically and in real life, what it means and how it is applied after deep wounds suffered at the hands of others.
The movie we saw kind of relates to this topic, it is a new release called "The Brave One" with Jodie Foster. Jodie's character explains at one point in the movie, without giving the story away, that she used to look down on people who had fear in their lives, she saw it as weakness and it wasn't found in her life. She knew that violent crime was around her, but since it hadn't visited her before, she had no way to relate to those who had it happen to them personally and who'd become fearful as a result.
In the movie, she becomes the recipient of violent crime, and it forever changes her. Several times in the movie she states, "you become a different person once this happens to you, you are never the same". It makes me wonder whether those who were never deeply wounded personaly and touched by the cold, dark side of TWI, who are suggesting their version of forgiveness upon others, can even relate to those who were harmed so deeply and in a way that takes years to overcome, if ever.
My husband stated that the bible says you absolutely must forgive all others no matter what. Honestly, I've never done too much in depth research on any biblical accounts regarding forgiveness, but I wonder what the verses say? Especially to whom God says is supposed to do the forgiving and toward whom, and under what circumstances. I also am curious as to what differences there are between the biblical
definitions and the present day definitions of what forgiveness is....my research list seems to get
longer all the time. It seems that forgiveness is often used as a feelgood salvo that is to be topically applied to any and all situations, and I know that in real life it ain't that easy. People loose their religion over these offences, as we have seen here and out there in the world, and I think it would be quite hard to apply blanket forgiveness to real life if let's say, your own child was the recipient of a haneous act by a known individual, awful hard to get over and to just "forgive" it.
It just seems to me, that the more haneous and life disturbing the offence committed against one is, the longer it takes to get a grip on it (Especially in a vacuum of information about what really was going on and that it wasn't your fault, which even elongates the process more.), and the harder it is to do it on command and squeeze it into real life situations in light of what today's definition of what forgiveness should be. The devil has never said he's sorry and God hasn't forgiven him either, has He? It just seems that something is missing in our understanding of the terms of forgiveness biblically. Anyway...just my thoughts....Has anyone here done any minute research on forgiveness biblically?
It makes me wonder whether those who were never deeply wounded personally and touched by the cold, dark side of TWI, who are suggesting their version of forgiveness upon others, can even relate to those who were harmed so deeply and in a way that takes years to overcome, if ever.
...It just seems to me, that the more heinous and life disturbing the offence committed against one is, the longer it takes to get a grip on it (Especially in a vacuum of information about what really was going on and that it wasn't your fault, which even elongates the process more.), and the harder it is to do it on command and squeeze it into real life situations in light of what today's definition of what forgiveness should be.
Most of us here have been wounded, often very deeply, by TWI. The isolating way we were dealt with usually meant it does take years to get over it since there may be no supporting network.
Lk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? 43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Does that mean you need to have big debts forgiven, to be able to forgive?
Does it mean you have to have had big hurts, to be able to forgive?
You can forgive - you just have a greater and deeper understanding of what it means. Doesn't mean the smaller debtor isn't grateful or doesn't understand. Simon above lived in a very senses-oriented way. BNIS, are you suggesting forgiveness from people not deeply hurt is only "senses" forgiveness, a matter of expediency but not from the heart? Or is it that "Their version of forgiveness" might relate to how far the victims have so far managed to deal with their wounds?
You can get over it: but doesn't mean that you want to spend any more time in contact with those who hurt you, if they have not shown that they repent of their behavior. It doesn't mean where appropriate that you shouldn't warn others or expose the abuse. Biblically there are many exhortations to beware of certain people who have caused harm.
I see people, that demand or direct others to “forgive,” on this forum has been, by some posters, a veiled insult. It seems to be the attitude of some of the VP apologists.
It is a twisted pretzel; they see VP’s sins as minimal, and marginally true. They think that all sin is equal, so if I took a quarter from my mother’s purse, that is just as bad, in God’s eyes, as raping a child of God seeking your help as a minister. In that line of thought, therefore, because all have sinned, then all should forgive. I think this is a veiled insult to minimize the DAMAGE done by an evildoer, by some here.
They think, if you really forgave someone – you would not point out the sin… So, when some poster wants to sing the praises of VP or Craig, and someone who has lived the truth of what these people were really about, reports it.... It is then twisted into --- you need to “forgive”
What a twisted concept to keep the perpetrator from being exposed. Keep the injured silent... Have them "stuff" the crimes committed against them, into the dark secret places of the soul. This keeps them injured, keeps then from speaking up, then some of you say they are injured because they do not forgive... They are injured because THEY WERE injured. They remain injured because you will not let them speak, And when they venture out to speak, you hit them with "you need to forgive".... in an effort to silence them again. Sounds real CHRISTIAN but I see it as extremely harmful behavior.
If I bring up, what I believe to be calculated brick laying of deception, then according to some, I have not forgiven. If I want to warn others or help the injured to get the validation they need – then according to some .....I have not forgiven.
I think the forgiveness issue is USED as a cheap shot to get people to stop shining the light on what REALLY happened, so it can continue.
However, if I/others have worked things out with God and believe it necessary to show people the “trick,” why can’t a person, who is a forgiving person, do that? Instead we are judged as not being forgiving and if we forgave we would be over it. Many are OVER it. We speak out when VP is cantonized, then our accusers say "you need to forgive...."
I think that is a lot of the issue – "YOU cannot be a forgiving person, if you still speak of the crime.” I do not agree.
God LOVED David, he was the apple of his eye. God forgave him, but he recorded his sin for all of mankind to SEE forever. He had Uriah killed. And the consequences cost him the life of his child with Bathseba --- So, did God forgive David?
Because according to some, repetitive posters here, they see discussing things somehow proves LACK of forgiveness.
I do not think God sees it as such. God forgave David, and yet has left it in the Bible, to be discussed for all time.
Discussing Weirwille’s evil is not akin to being an unforgiving person.
Great questions, DWBH, thoughts. I'm on the way out the door, but a couple comments -
When I look at an injury, I know the extent of the injury is going to determine the extent of what needs to be done to recover, heal, get right again.
While there are limitless resources available through Christ, I believe, we are the people we are, and we benefit from that recource not only in a "snap" immdediate fix-it-be-done with it recovery but for all those times throughout life when we require time, understanding, consideration, etc. Put another way, God may be fast, but we can be slow to respond. It's just the way life is, the way we are and I think we have to recognize that with patience and as much as we can muster.
So, a big hit requires some big medicine. When I look at the injured person, where's my concern go? Towards the injured, first. There they are, lying hurt. What's it going to take to help them?
The parpabe of the "good Samaritan" comes to mind, and Jesus's response in that record but gotta go....
There is a difference between discussing "the crime" and not learning, wanting or lacking the ability to "forgive"
I find the "forgive them" argument against people reporting "the crime" to be shallow.
It seems as though, some posters want us to hold hands and in a Cumbia camp song, and pretend all was well in Weirwille land. It wasn’t and from all reports continues to stink.
But for some, whose biggest offense they have had to endure was surrendering their “blue book”, and another to be drugged and raped, I do not think one has the right to dictate to the other “you need to forgive”. It is being used (on this board- for years) as a tool to beat the victim into silence and feeling bad – that somehow it is their responsibility that they were raped.
However, when I point this out, some people PM me about how their confusion is finally cleared, while others continually fight telling me, "I need to cling to the positives and forgive." What an “almost” truth. What a statement to the left of honesty, which condemns people for sharing what they SAW, and chastises a victim for not "**forgiving" the perpetrator.
(**forgiving, according to how THEY want to see your forgiveness -- i.e., if you discuss the crime, the pain or even the deliverance, then it is apparent to them -- that you did not forgive "correctly" So, they will take the time to point THAT out, which then takes the heat off of the exposing "the darkness" -- and changes things to be about -- once again how wonderful VP was, or how his crimes were not that big a deal, or how --- well like Vp would argue -- Whatsoever things are pure think on those things -- what a subtle way to give TWI wiggle room and put the "injured" on trial.)
Yes, the Amish were great in that area. But it was different.
Here (GS) we still have cloudy Christians, crawling out from under the toxic cloud of lies, which need to hear how TWI perpetuated evil, condemnation, lies and cover-ups over the course of decades.
With the Amish, in that ONE incident, people are not still in a organization or situation where daily people are still being shot, or perhaps they would have forgiven, but decided to fight so they would stop having their kids shot daily.
If TWI had one incident of a horrible sin, such as what happened to Marsha on John Juedes web site, then I betcha, most everyone, much like the Amish, would have forgiven them for this one HORRIBLE incident. And perhaps, that one incident would have been used as a measure of where they never wanted to go again. The comparison of the Amish (although horrid) is like apples and oranges here. One was a horrible day, the other, torturous, calculated decades of destructive patterns and “acceptable” sin
II think the forgiveness issue is USED as a cheap shot to get people to stop shining the light on what REALLY happened, so it can continue.
..or ABused !
(It's the light shined by posts like those of Dot and other women who have been abused, that has exposed the wickedness of others and enabled healing to take place. Got the dirt out of the wound, so to speak.)
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' words on another important aspect of the whole process:
Matthew 18:15-17 NIV
15If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
I look at forgiveness as only one step in the whole process of reconciliation. Isn't reconciliation the ultimate goal when talking about forgiveness? At least in Christian circles. Isn't that how God works? The Holy Spirit convicts someone of sin. Then God wants the person to acknowledge their sin [admit their guilt] as the first step toward reconciliation to Him. The sinner realizes the enormity of their offense - and seeking forgiveness - is drawn to the most logical place...the Cross of Christ!... God desires to forgive - the sinner craves to be forgiven...And both sides [yes, even the sinner to some degree] are aware of what it took to get the "negotiations" thus far.
In reference to TWI-leadership offenses - the reconciliation process [brother-to-brother] is stymied by the offending party's refusal to admit an offense has been made. I think it is unbiblical to demand forgiveness in a situation where the other aspects that relate to the reconciliation process are sorely neglected.
As far as the offended party actually forgiving the offender anyway – I think in some unspoken way that may happen a lot more than we realize – just as a matter of releasing ourselves from the bonds of anger, resentment, hatred, etc. I wonder if sometimes we mistake this longing for reconciliation as being unforgiving.
For the record, I am not one to say, "You must forgive."
No one has the authority to demand someone to forgive, neither does anyone have any say in the matter whatsoever. That decision is best made between a person and God.
I will repeat - over and over and over again - that I truly believe that forgiveness DOES NOT MEAN FORGETTING. God says of Himself that He casts our sins as far as the East is from the West, and that's a good thing - because, well, He's God. (Who wants go try to live without condemnation when "The Big Guy" remembers every sin? :o ) But He has not said that I need to forget the wrong I have forgiven someone for.
Funny, even though God forgives us, He chooses in Ephesians to remind us of our depraved state prior to being born again.
To remember is wise. To remember is right. Forgive if and when you are ready - at a time YOU decide - but never ever forget - that way you will not be deceived again.
they show no responsibility on the part of their "idols" to repent of their sins, apologize, confess, or even ask for forgiveness.......instead, the responsibility for action is flipped right back on the victims who are now responsible to forgive the offenders without so much as even a hint of sorrow or contition from gulty!.........
My question to them is this: "how can i grant forgiveness to someone who vehemently denies he/she committed any offense?".from what i can see, god has no problem forgiving anyone for anything if that person chooses to repent.....this process of repentance seems to precede god's granting of forgiveness.........as a matter of fact, it seems to me that forgiveness is predicated upon repentance..........meaning that without an acto of the will and mind admitting to an offense, and then repenting of said offense, foregiveness CANNOT be granted!......now as far as man's vertical relationship with god goes, repentance and forgiveness seems to be a "2-way street".........i.e., man repents...god forgives.........am i then right in assuming that in man's dealings with his fellow man, forgiveness is also a "2-wat street"???if i wrong someone or sin against him/her, how can that person forgive me if i never APOLOGIZE?.....if i deny any wrongdoing, i will refuse to apologize don't i?.....if i refuse to accept responsibility for my actions, i will never feel the need for forgiveness, since, in my mind, i never did anything wrong!......why do i nedd to apologize and ask for forgiveness if i never did anything wrong???....................
I'm with you, I don't feel the need to forgive all these people. If they have repented it is between God and them and those of you who are expecting an apology from them are living in la la land...... They must answer to God in the end and will get their just punishment for the things they have done. For people that have wronged me I give it to God when it is out of my control. Doesn't the bible say Venegance is for God. This may sound callous to some of you but when does all this stop? In my opinion we are all responsible to some degree. No one tied us up, made us believe, made us do anything we were not willing to do! (except for the rape victims) We listened to the face meltings, etc, etc, etc....... We all at one time or another just had to say enough, which we did when we left. But we all must take responsiblity for our own actions and quit blaming everyone else. When we come to that point in our life, we will be free.
Hello everybody!!.....how's your coffe today?.......you posters are AWESOME!!.......thanks for the many great replies!.....profound, considered, polite, and divergent.....a credit to the clientelle in this joint!.....and also the manager.....thanks pawtucket!!
T-Bone.......thanks for the welcome and the post.......those verses and your insight regarding "the whole process of reconciliation" very concisely sum up my personal biblical perspective on this topic.....also, your questions are thought provoking.
ButNowISee.......yeah.......ironic how the words of jesus were twisted by twi and turned into their malpractice of "mark and avoid".
Agape99, Doojable, Wrdsandwrks, Cinderpelt.......thought provoking as well.......stephen.....corrie ten boom.....amazing individuals.......can or should their individual experiences, example and courage be expanded to include all christians in all circumstances??.......i know that i know that i don't know.
Skyrider.......again,...insightful, thought provoking questions.......the ball has been in their court for several decades now.......thankfully, god almighty is the eternal referee and we'll ALL be in his court one day!
Socks.......man i love you dude!......."the effect of a fly spitting on my lawn".....LOL!.....i agree with your "pigs iceskating in hell" theory regarding the odds that rosie and her gang will ever apologize.......your theory is probably more positive than my own expectations!.....hehehe.....just so ya know.....i don't "need revenge"....."vengeance is mine saith the lord. i will repay."......i don't feel the need to forgive them....." cast not your pearls before swine.".....yeah.....they're totally on their own.......was that a fly i just saw spitting on my lawn??
AnotherDan.......great song!!
Twinky.....again.....thought povoking questions.......looking forward to a reply from ButNowISee.
Dot Matrix.......you go girl!!......."they are injured because THEY WERE injured".......right on!!.......god.....david.....bathsheba.....uriah.....absalom.....why indeed "left in the bible to be discussed for all time"?.......thanks for the heartfelt post for the injured!!......."one was a horrible day, the other, torturous, calculated decades of destructive patterns and acceptable sin".......wow!!......i agee with twinky on that one!!
RainbowsGirl.......i love you too!!
Doojable......." forgive if and when you are ready-at a time you decide-but never ever forget-that way you will not be deceived again.".......amen Dooj.....never again!
Excathedra.......you're welcome!.....thanks for your posts and for reading mine.......i mean it too!
Thank you all!!.......keep them posts and thoughts coming........and,...to my aforementioned list of "leaders".......like doojable said.......i will never ever forget!!.......and neither can you, naked in all your wickedness before our heavenly father!!........................................PEACE!
Hello everybody!!.....how's your coffe today?.......you posters are AWESOME!!.......thanks for the many great replies!.....profound, considered, polite, and divergent.....a credit to the clientelle in this joint!.....and also the manager.....thanks pawtucket!!
T-Bone.......thanks for the welcome and the post.......those verses and your insight regarding "the whole process of reconciliation" very concisely sum up my personal biblical perspective on this topic.....also, your questions are thought provoking.
ButNowISee.......yeah.......ironic how the words of jesus were twisted by twi and turned into their malpractice of "mark and avoid".
Agape99, Doojable, Wrdsandwrks, Cinderpelt.......thought provoking as well.......stephen.....corrie ten boom.....amazing individuals.......can or should their individual experiences, example and courage be expanded to include all christians in all circumstances??.......i know that i know that i don't know.
Skyrider.......again,...insightful, thought provoking questions.......the ball has been in their court for several decades now.......thankfully, god almighty is the eternal referee and we'll ALL be in his court one day!
Socks.......man i love you dude!......."the effect of a fly spitting on my lawn".....LOL!.....i agree with your "pigs iceskating in hell" theory regarding the odds that rosie and her gang will ever apologize.......your theory is probably more positive than my own expectations!.....hehehe.....just so ya know.....i don't "need revenge"....."vengeance is mine saith the lord. i will repay."......i don't feel the need to forgive them....." cast not your pearls before swine.".....yeah.....they're totally on their own.......was that a fly i just saw spitting on my lawn??
AnotherDan.......great song!!
Twinky.....again.....thought povoking questions.......looking forward to a reply from ButNowISee.
Dot Matrix.......you go girl!!......."they are injured because THEY WERE injured".......right on!!.......god.....david.....bathsheba.....uriah.....absalom.....why indeed "left in the bible to be discussed for all time"?.......thanks for the heartfelt post for the injured!!......."one was a horrible day, the other, torturous, calculated decades of destructive patterns and acceptable sin".......wow!!......i agee with twinky on that one!!
RainbowsGirl.......i love you too!!
Doojable......." forgive if and when you are ready-at a time you decide-but never ever forget-that way you will not be deceived again.".......amen Dooj.....never again!
Excathedra.......you're welcome!.....thanks for your posts and for reading mine.......i mean it too!
Thank you all!!.......keep them posts and thoughts coming........and,...to my aforementioned list of "leaders".......like doojable said.......i will never ever forget!!.......and neither can you, naked in all your wickedness before our heavenly father!!........................................PEACE!
hi doojable.......sorry 'bout that.......i got it mixed up with a post of your's about ctboom on a different thread........thanks for clearin, that up.......
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
10
20
14
Popular Days
Sep 21
56
Sep 22
25
Sep 23
22
Sep 20
20
Top Posters In This Topic
Dot Matrix 15 posts
socks 10 posts
doojable 20 posts
DontWorryBeHappy 14 posts
Popular Days
Sep 21 2007
56 posts
Sep 22 2007
25 posts
Sep 23 2007
22 posts
Sep 20 2007
20 posts
Popular Posts
T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' wo
Linda Z
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize"
rascal
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... becaus
agape99
My question t them is this: "how can i grant forgiveness to someone who vehemently denies he/she committed any offense?".from what i can see, god has no problem forgiving anyone for anything if that person chooses to repent.....this process of repentance seems to precede god's granting of forgiveness.........as a matter of fact, it seems to me that forgiveness is predicated upon repentance..........
Don't Worry Be Happy,
I see your point. However, as some have mentioned Stephen; I thought of the same man when I read your original post. For me, (and I only speak for myself) it comes down to not holding on to this the rest of my life. Some injustices have been laid against me by TWI leadership between 94-07, but I don't choose to hold on to it. They are clue-less and they will remain that way. I can't change their heart anymore than anyone else in here can. I just know for my own life I will follow Stephen's example. I'll forgive, I just won't forget.
Not everything I got from TWI was good, and yet not all of it was bad either. I learned a lot of great stuff from them, and I learned some pretty bad doctrines at the same time. To quote John Juedes who I spoke with, "It will take you years to sort all of that out." I believe him. Not everything I learned was wrong, and not everything I learned was right either. TWI imposed leagalism on me, and helped destroy a good portion of my self esteem (I didn't have to let them, so I take accountability for my part). However, they also helped set me free from error that was keeping me enslaved that I learned from another church. In the end I have some things to work through. I was treated poorly at times by TWI, and treated well at other times. I have come to the conclusion that TWI is not a healthy environment for my family or myself. However, I do believe that there are lots of born again christians in TWI that I want to be respecful to. I was one of them. I looked on this site for two years without any of you knowing my presence. This site and empirenet helped me realize some things concerning TWI. I'm thankful for both. But what kept me from pulling the trigger and leaving TWI at times is the little part none of your realize. "They actually read this site!!!" They actually use your own words against you!!! I can't tell you how many times I heard something like, "The people on the internet are hard hearted" or "They don't move past their" fill in the blank. I'm not telling anyone to forgive anyone.. But for me? I'm not giving TWI the power of my resentment and anger. I'll confess my anger to God and ask for his mercy to help heal my heart. I'll take part on this site because I feel you guys care about the people in TWI, or you wouldn't bother writing about them 20 years after the fact for some of you. You are some of the most caring people this world has.
In closing, if you have anger and need to let it out, please do. But lets not forget to share with people how this site has helped us heal as well. That's what people who are still in need to see. That there is life after TWI, that there is a relationship with God after TWI, that TWI doesn't hold all the knowledge of God, and most of all lets share with them that we have not lost that "HOPE" that God, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are still very much a huge part of our lives even after TWI.
God Bless all of you, I Love You.
agape99
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Jesus prayed for those who took part in his crucifixion -- whether by cheering it on or actual mockery, or driving the nails --
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
One man was promised Paradise. The others received only forgiveness.
Perhaps this is the difference in our lives today.
PERHAPS...
Perhaps when we forgive we grant just that -- forgiveness -- and a release from what binds us emotionally.
Perhaps there is more for those who ask for forgiveness. We are, afterall, the Body of Christ.
Perhaps...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
Agape99
Thanks for the reminder. Yes, there is life afer The Way, and it gets better and better the further away you get.
Dooj,
As usual, great insight. It relates also I think, to T-Bone's great insight about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation
I wonder how many of those observing the crucifixion that day became followers of Jesus after the resurrection.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cinderpelt
Profound! W&W, Doojable, Agape99, TB and others! As someone mentioned in an earlier post, Stephen was, IMO, following his Lord with his last words on this planet. Who knows where Saul of Tarsus would have ended up, had Stephen not defrocked his own self-interest ("this really sux, and really hurts!") to intercede for the ignorant? Somehow it always gets back to relationship; ours with God and our Lord, Jesus, and with each other, not only IN the Body of Christ, but it is, according to Romans, the goodness and kindness of God that leads to repentance.
Takes a lot of wisdom to walk in this age and discern good from evil, truth from error. I'm grateful that God promised wisdom if we ask.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
DontWorryBeHappy.......I agree with your assessment on forgiveness and that when "they" fess up and admit their doings and apologize, then "I" will forgive them. But as you pointed out, Martindale seems to believe that *he did nothing wrong*.... :blink: ....and therefore, is stopping short of God's reconciliation and restoration......and man's re-establishment of fellowship.
Although twi's trustees....i.e. major players....continues to plod along in their tight-lipped mode, the disgusting abuse has long been falling "out of their closets." And, some of twi's offshoots dish out nose-spider personal prophesies to keep the playing field slanted in their favor.......amazing, how many different ways there are to lord over God's heritage and take unfair advantage over the flock. But, for Rosie, Donna and the twi gang.....is this *silent treatment* a true refuge? Hardly. The inevitable justice of God's divine power will come into play at His choosing.
For their spiritual wholeness.......THEY NEED TO BARE THEIR WICKEDNESS BEFORE THE FATHER.
And, for their betterment........THEY OWE US ALL AN APOLOGY.
Whether they choose to own up to the truth of God's Word, that's the ball in their court. The Scriptures are SO clear on their erring, their forsaking the One True God.
Perhaps, we are witnessing the spiritual truth of those whose conscience is seared. Are they so engulfed in reprobate doings that they cannot find their way out of the snares?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
On the Apologeez front -
Pigs will be ice skating in hel l the day any of the Way principals like Rosaliee apologize for anything from the past. Chances - slim to none. Expect the Devil to send God a Birthday card before that happens.
If they did, that would probably be a good thing but it wouldn't make anything difference, better or worse for me. Imagine the effect a fly spitting on my lawn would have, it would effect me slightly less either way, good or bad.
My wife likes to say "we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us".
I like to say "we left before I had a chance to get really mean with them".
It's better this way, believe me. But I understand the sentiments expressed here, I think, a little anyway. As far as any chance for any of them to "make it right" with me, I don't need it. I encourage everyone to make their own lives as right as they can, like you have BeHappy, and get on with it.
Look at it this way - You were in the Way. Now you're not.
You win.
They're still in the Way. They lose.
If you need revenge, they're living it. If you need to forgive, just do it. If you don't want to, don't. You win either way. Wash their dirty bodies down with the clean cool rain of your love. Just don't be surprised if they're filthy dirty again this time next week. Not much you can do about that.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
I just had a discussion with my DH on the way back from dinner and a movie, about the definition of forgiveness biblically and in real life, what it means and how it is applied after deep wounds suffered at the hands of others.
The movie we saw kind of relates to this topic, it is a new release called "The Brave One" with Jodie Foster. Jodie's character explains at one point in the movie, without giving the story away, that she used to look down on people who had fear in their lives, she saw it as weakness and it wasn't found in her life. She knew that violent crime was around her, but since it hadn't visited her before, she had no way to relate to those who had it happen to them personally and who'd become fearful as a result.
In the movie, she becomes the recipient of violent crime, and it forever changes her. Several times in the movie she states, "you become a different person once this happens to you, you are never the same". It makes me wonder whether those who were never deeply wounded personaly and touched by the cold, dark side of TWI, who are suggesting their version of forgiveness upon others, can even relate to those who were harmed so deeply and in a way that takes years to overcome, if ever.
My husband stated that the bible says you absolutely must forgive all others no matter what. Honestly, I've never done too much in depth research on any biblical accounts regarding forgiveness, but I wonder what the verses say? Especially to whom God says is supposed to do the forgiving and toward whom, and under what circumstances. I also am curious as to what differences there are between the biblical
definitions and the present day definitions of what forgiveness is....my research list seems to get
longer all the time. It seems that forgiveness is often used as a feelgood salvo that is to be topically applied to any and all situations, and I know that in real life it ain't that easy. People loose their religion over these offences, as we have seen here and out there in the world, and I think it would be quite hard to apply blanket forgiveness to real life if let's say, your own child was the recipient of a haneous act by a known individual, awful hard to get over and to just "forgive" it.
It just seems to me, that the more haneous and life disturbing the offence committed against one is, the longer it takes to get a grip on it (Especially in a vacuum of information about what really was going on and that it wasn't your fault, which even elongates the process more.), and the harder it is to do it on command and squeeze it into real life situations in light of what today's definition of what forgiveness should be. The devil has never said he's sorry and God hasn't forgiven him either, has He? It just seems that something is missing in our understanding of the terms of forgiveness biblically. Anyway...just my thoughts....Has anyone here done any minute research on forgiveness biblically?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
(The Heart of the Matter -- Henley)
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Most of us here have been wounded, often very deeply, by TWI. The isolating way we were dealt with usually meant it does take years to get over it since there may be no supporting network.
Lk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? 43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Does that mean you need to have big debts forgiven, to be able to forgive?
Does it mean you have to have had big hurts, to be able to forgive?
You can forgive - you just have a greater and deeper understanding of what it means. Doesn't mean the smaller debtor isn't grateful or doesn't understand. Simon above lived in a very senses-oriented way. BNIS, are you suggesting forgiveness from people not deeply hurt is only "senses" forgiveness, a matter of expediency but not from the heart? Or is it that "Their version of forgiveness" might relate to how far the victims have so far managed to deal with their wounds?
You can get over it: but doesn't mean that you want to spend any more time in contact with those who hurt you, if they have not shown that they repent of their behavior. It doesn't mean where appropriate that you shouldn't warn others or expose the abuse. Biblically there are many exhortations to beware of certain people who have caused harm.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Be Happy, welcome
I see people, that demand or direct others to “forgive,” on this forum has been, by some posters, a veiled insult. It seems to be the attitude of some of the VP apologists.
It is a twisted pretzel; they see VP’s sins as minimal, and marginally true. They think that all sin is equal, so if I took a quarter from my mother’s purse, that is just as bad, in God’s eyes, as raping a child of God seeking your help as a minister. In that line of thought, therefore, because all have sinned, then all should forgive. I think this is a veiled insult to minimize the DAMAGE done by an evildoer, by some here.
They think, if you really forgave someone – you would not point out the sin… So, when some poster wants to sing the praises of VP or Craig, and someone who has lived the truth of what these people were really about, reports it.... It is then twisted into --- you need to “forgive”
What a twisted concept to keep the perpetrator from being exposed. Keep the injured silent... Have them "stuff" the crimes committed against them, into the dark secret places of the soul. This keeps them injured, keeps then from speaking up, then some of you say they are injured because they do not forgive... They are injured because THEY WERE injured. They remain injured because you will not let them speak, And when they venture out to speak, you hit them with "you need to forgive".... in an effort to silence them again. Sounds real CHRISTIAN but I see it as extremely harmful behavior.
If I bring up, what I believe to be calculated brick laying of deception, then according to some, I have not forgiven. If I want to warn others or help the injured to get the validation they need – then according to some .....I have not forgiven.
I think the forgiveness issue is USED as a cheap shot to get people to stop shining the light on what REALLY happened, so it can continue.
However, if I/others have worked things out with God and believe it necessary to show people the “trick,” why can’t a person, who is a forgiving person, do that? Instead we are judged as not being forgiving and if we forgave we would be over it. Many are OVER it. We speak out when VP is cantonized, then our accusers say "you need to forgive...."
I think that is a lot of the issue – "YOU cannot be a forgiving person, if you still speak of the crime.” I do not agree.
God LOVED David, he was the apple of his eye. God forgave him, but he recorded his sin for all of mankind to SEE forever. He had Uriah killed. And the consequences cost him the life of his child with Bathseba --- So, did God forgive David?
Because according to some, repetitive posters here, they see discussing things somehow proves LACK of forgiveness.
I do not think God sees it as such. God forgave David, and yet has left it in the Bible, to be discussed for all time.
Discussing Weirwille’s evil is not akin to being an unforgiving person.
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Great questions, DWBH, thoughts. I'm on the way out the door, but a couple comments -
When I look at an injury, I know the extent of the injury is going to determine the extent of what needs to be done to recover, heal, get right again.
While there are limitless resources available through Christ, I believe, we are the people we are, and we benefit from that recource not only in a "snap" immdediate fix-it-be-done with it recovery but for all those times throughout life when we require time, understanding, consideration, etc. Put another way, God may be fast, but we can be slow to respond. It's just the way life is, the way we are and I think we have to recognize that with patience and as much as we can muster.
So, a big hit requires some big medicine. When I look at the injured person, where's my concern go? Towards the injured, first. There they are, lying hurt. What's it going to take to help them?
The parpabe of the "good Samaritan" comes to mind, and Jesus's response in that record but gotta go....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
There is a difference between discussing "the crime" and not learning, wanting or lacking the ability to "forgive"
I find the "forgive them" argument against people reporting "the crime" to be shallow.
It seems as though, some posters want us to hold hands and in a Cumbia camp song, and pretend all was well in Weirwille land. It wasn’t and from all reports continues to stink.
But for some, whose biggest offense they have had to endure was surrendering their “blue book”, and another to be drugged and raped, I do not think one has the right to dictate to the other “you need to forgive”. It is being used (on this board- for years) as a tool to beat the victim into silence and feeling bad – that somehow it is their responsibility that they were raped.
However, when I point this out, some people PM me about how their confusion is finally cleared, while others continually fight telling me, "I need to cling to the positives and forgive." What an “almost” truth. What a statement to the left of honesty, which condemns people for sharing what they SAW, and chastises a victim for not "**forgiving" the perpetrator.
(**forgiving, according to how THEY want to see your forgiveness -- i.e., if you discuss the crime, the pain or even the deliverance, then it is apparent to them -- that you did not forgive "correctly" So, they will take the time to point THAT out, which then takes the heat off of the exposing "the darkness" -- and changes things to be about -- once again how wonderful VP was, or how his crimes were not that big a deal, or how --- well like Vp would argue -- Whatsoever things are pure think on those things -- what a subtle way to give TWI wiggle room and put the "injured" on trial.)
Yes, the Amish were great in that area. But it was different.
Here (GS) we still have cloudy Christians, crawling out from under the toxic cloud of lies, which need to hear how TWI perpetuated evil, condemnation, lies and cover-ups over the course of decades.
With the Amish, in that ONE incident, people are not still in a organization or situation where daily people are still being shot, or perhaps they would have forgiven, but decided to fight so they would stop having their kids shot daily.
If TWI had one incident of a horrible sin, such as what happened to Marsha on John Juedes web site, then I betcha, most everyone, much like the Amish, would have forgiven them for this one HORRIBLE incident. And perhaps, that one incident would have been used as a measure of where they never wanted to go again. The comparison of the Amish (although horrid) is like apples and oranges here. One was a horrible day, the other, torturous, calculated decades of destructive patterns and “acceptable” sin
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
..or ABused !
(It's the light shined by posts like those of Dot and other women who have been abused, that has exposed the wickedness of others and enabled healing to take place. Got the dirt out of the wound, so to speak.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Thank You T-Bone,
This is definitely how I see it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Have a cup of Coffee
and enjoy Your stay here!
I Love you Don't Worry Be Happy, RainbowsGirl
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
For the record, I am not one to say, "You must forgive."
No one has the authority to demand someone to forgive, neither does anyone have any say in the matter whatsoever. That decision is best made between a person and God.
I will repeat - over and over and over again - that I truly believe that forgiveness DOES NOT MEAN FORGETTING. God says of Himself that He casts our sins as far as the East is from the West, and that's a good thing - because, well, He's God. (Who wants go try to live without condemnation when "The Big Guy" remembers every sin? :o ) But He has not said that I need to forget the wrong I have forgiven someone for.
Funny, even though God forgives us, He chooses in Ephesians to remind us of our depraved state prior to being born again.
To remember is wise. To remember is right. Forgive if and when you are ready - at a time YOU decide - but never ever forget - that way you will not be deceived again.
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Twinky, blowing you a kiss!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
hey don'tworrybehappy, thank you so very much for your posts, your thoughts, i mean it, thank you !!!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Thanks Behappy
I am doing a one person "wave" in my kitchen!
A big AMEN
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
rosestoyou
Dontworry,
I'm with you, I don't feel the need to forgive all these people. If they have repented it is between God and them and those of you who are expecting an apology from them are living in la la land...... They must answer to God in the end and will get their just punishment for the things they have done. For people that have wronged me I give it to God when it is out of my control. Doesn't the bible say Venegance is for God. This may sound callous to some of you but when does all this stop? In my opinion we are all responsible to some degree. No one tied us up, made us believe, made us do anything we were not willing to do! (except for the rape victims) We listened to the face meltings, etc, etc, etc....... We all at one time or another just had to say enough, which we did when we left. But we all must take responsiblity for our own actions and quit blaming everyone else. When we come to that point in our life, we will be free.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
Hello everybody!!.....how's your coffe today?.......you posters are AWESOME!!.......thanks for the many great replies!.....profound, considered, polite, and divergent.....a credit to the clientelle in this joint!.....and also the manager.....thanks pawtucket!!
T-Bone.......thanks for the welcome and the post.......those verses and your insight regarding "the whole process of reconciliation" very concisely sum up my personal biblical perspective on this topic.....also, your questions are thought provoking.
ButNowISee.......yeah.......ironic how the words of jesus were twisted by twi and turned into their malpractice of "mark and avoid".
Agape99, Doojable, Wrdsandwrks, Cinderpelt.......thought provoking as well.......stephen.....corrie ten boom.....amazing individuals.......can or should their individual experiences, example and courage be expanded to include all christians in all circumstances??.......i know that i know that i don't know.
Skyrider.......again,...insightful, thought provoking questions.......the ball has been in their court for several decades now.......thankfully, god almighty is the eternal referee and we'll ALL be in his court one day!
Socks.......man i love you dude!......."the effect of a fly spitting on my lawn".....LOL!.....i agree with your "pigs iceskating in hell" theory regarding the odds that rosie and her gang will ever apologize.......your theory is probably more positive than my own expectations!.....hehehe.....just so ya know.....i don't "need revenge"....."vengeance is mine saith the lord. i will repay."......i don't feel the need to forgive them....." cast not your pearls before swine.".....yeah.....they're totally on their own.......was that a fly i just saw spitting on my lawn??
AnotherDan.......great song!!
Twinky.....again.....thought povoking questions.......looking forward to a reply from ButNowISee.
Dot Matrix.......you go girl!!......."they are injured because THEY WERE injured".......right on!!.......god.....david.....bathsheba.....uriah.....absalom.....why indeed "left in the bible to be discussed for all time"?.......thanks for the heartfelt post for the injured!!......."one was a horrible day, the other, torturous, calculated decades of destructive patterns and acceptable sin".......wow!!......i agee with twinky on that one!!
RainbowsGirl.......i love you too!!
Doojable......." forgive if and when you are ready-at a time you decide-but never ever forget-that way you will not be deceived again.".......amen Dooj.....never again!
Excathedra.......you're welcome!.....thanks for your posts and for reading mine.......i mean it too!
Thank you all!!.......keep them posts and thoughts coming........and,...to my aforementioned list of "leaders".......like doojable said.......i will never ever forget!!.......and neither can you, naked in all your wickedness before our heavenly father!!........................................PEACE!
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I might consider forgiving them if they would first say something like----"I'm Sorry!"
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I had more to say than just Corrie Ten Boom:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=368706
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
hi doojable.......sorry 'bout that.......i got it mixed up with a post of your's about ctboom on a different thread........thanks for clearin, that up.......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.