this topic is a big one in my family's life. More on the personal repentance aspect than forgiveness though. But, to answer your question on my thoughts............
I believe they(all of the above) get forgiveness from GOD, when they repent. Which they haven't (not publicly anyway). So, they will have to answer to HIM.
They get forgiveness from ME, when "I"give it. I will not allow them to have the power over me by being mad, angry, bitter, and unforgiving....................
Well, Don't Worry, my short answer to your questions is, a long answer. :lol:
When I choose to forgive someone, I do it for my health and personal peace. It matters not to me, whether they choose to remain an ignorant numb butt. That's their personal choice. So be it.
For my own sake, I purge my mind of the baggage that comes along with holding that grudge, when I by my own choice, recognize the evil perpetrated against moi, get real mad about it, grieve, cuss, throw things, whatever is needed for my release, and then let go of it.
This technique works especially well, when I need to forgive someone who is deceased. Once I've sufficiently purged, with a little help from Mom, friends, relatives, wandering pedestrians, Jesus, Fellow Greasespotters, whoever..........then I can get on with the business of living my life, baggage free.
My outlook is simplistic, I know. But I tend to be on the selfish side, and really hate prolonging the torment. ;) I have too much life ahead of me, to stay stuck in past crud. After all, I'm still trying to find my bliss.
PS disclaimer: This is my own personal technique, perfected over the years. I would never presume to demand that anyone else adopt my strategy. As some as so prone to do here. I don't believe in black/white "principles" anymore. Just getting up in the morning being excited about my day in the life, is enuff for me.
Maybe my perspective is a little different than others...I no longer feel injured by what happened in twi...I'm over it.
...and I'm a better man now than I was then. I look at them with disgust and with righteous anger...I would forgive them in a heartbeat if they came to me and said they were sorry...but they have not done that. It's not like I am preoccupied with thinking about them (I stop thinking about them when I leave this website)...and I am certainly not being consumed by "bitterness"...I simply think that they are wrong in what they do and they are hurting people...and I say so.
I have too much going on in my life to spend much time thinking about twi...My forgiving them or not does not bother me one way or the other. We all stand before God and that's what counts. I am responsible for my own sins...they are responsible for theirs...
what Bliss and ex10 said makes sense to me, and i think of Jesus' words on the cross (which Washington alluded to)
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
it's quite plain that they were unrepentant at that time, so i would take exception to your question:
My question t them is this: "how can i grant forgiveness to someone who vehemently denies he/she committed any offense?"
“Servants, [be]subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:” (1Pe 2:18-23 AV)
“Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, [and are] the offscouring of all things unto this day.” (1Co 4:11-13 AV)
That said, repentence for the wrongdoer is a very good thing, as is apology and reparation. God's judgment is up to Him, and I'm sure He will take into account whatever is right.
My favorite "forgiveness" quote comes from Derek Prince, and it goes something like this:
Unforgiveness is the poison we take, trying to kill someone else.
Last year, not far from here, a milkman killed a bunch of Amish kids at a school. He was going to rape the little girls first, but thankfully he didn't. I passed by the place today. It's absolutely inconceivable, but it happened. Where do you stick this stuff in your heart? There's nowhere for it but to give it to God.
When Jesus said, "he that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also..." I no longer think of the stuff I used to think about. I think of forgiving the unforgivable, of not turning his face from spitting, of his words "happy are ye..." in the sermon on the mount. That's the tough stuff.
Forgiveness is as much for oneself as for another. Like AD's quote about non-forgiveness being a poison. It is when we start to forgive that we get healed. Lack of forgiveness is an open sore in one's own heart.
We are to bless those who persecute us. Pray for them. Read how Job prayed for his persecutors. To truly pray for someone you cannot hold unforgiveness against them; you have to let it go.
Refusing to forgive someone because they haven't shown they are repentant or haven't apologized to you is Wayspeak. That's what LCM taught, as an excuse for getting people to grovel to him (him!)when he had M&A'd them, humiliated them and slandered them vilely.
"Be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Where does this say, only if they seek forgiveness first?
More clearly - when JC did it on the cross, he did it for his own fulfillment of the law, not because they did anything to him.
There was no repentance here. This stands in the face of the not repenting. Forgiveness happens and is going to happen. It sweeps in waves over the spirit of man. Love is empty without it.
The subject of forgiveness was touched on in a thread by the same name. There are some quotes from a book, What's So Amazing About Grace by Phillip Yancy.
I agree with what many of the people have said so far. Forgiveness benefits both parties, but the only party to actually receive the benefit is the party that forgives. If someone has done something to me......if I refuse to forgive them, it's like me drinking poison waiting for the other party to drop dead. That's insane to do that. Somehow, I think I used to think that withholding forgiveness really made the other people suffer for their wrong doing......when in fact, they usually could either care less, or are completely unaware of what they have actually done, and they have gone on living their lives without one thought a day about what I am consumed in my thinking about aLL day. Who's paying the price here? Well for one, I am....cause like someone said, I'm the one that carries it around....I take it everywhere I go......I never leave it anywhere....I talk about it, I think about it...I play it over and over again in my head, it grows and increases my own personal pain. Will they pay a price? sure I think so....but I leave that to God. God is a just God. So, in summary, I have acquired the practice of forgiveness and doing it quickly cause I know what it does to me. Would I like to have an apology......Of course.......will I get an apology? who knows. My forgiveness is not continguent upon whether or not they apologize......Oh yes, I forgot something else.....I pray for those who wrong me and that is not an easy thing to do in the beginning. Why you ask? Two reasons....one the bible tells me to do that and Two.....I have found that is a phenomenal way of ridding myself of all those feelings I have toward that person. I pray for them what I would want in my life......that they would have health, that they would be healed of anything that they need to be healed of, I pray they would prosper and that they would have blessings that I would want in my life. The result........Pretty soon I am like no longer carrying even the feelings I once had for them. God is pretty smart on this subject.....we should follow the directions......It's a great freedom for us......forgivenss and prayer!!
In general I agree with what you're saying. In addition, not being a Christian I feel no compulsion to follow Jesus' (or anyone else's in the bible) example of forgiveness.
But your characterization of yourself as a "man who knew too much" suggests that you were in a position of leadership yourself. Have you any forgveness to seek?
..........by attacking the victims they try to ignore the obvious and proveableguilt of whichever one of their "idols" they're tying to protect.......they so no responsibility on the part of their "idols" to repent of their sins, apologize, confess,or even ask for forgiveness.......instead, the responsibility for action is flipped right back on the victims who are now responsible to forgive the offenders without so much as even a hint of sorrow or contition from gulty!.........
Don't Worry Be Happy! Glad you can be so happy starting this thread. :)
I will answer some of your statements here:
(1) By admonishing victims to forgive as Jesus instructed, one is not attacking them.
(2) Communicating scriptures on forgiveness of men doesn't mean the communicator is engaging in idolatry of those men.
(3) Forgiveness by the victim is not contingent upon the offender being contrite.
3) Forgiveness by the victim is not contingent upon the offender being contrite.
true, but being contrite would certainly help, even perhaps remove the "stumbling block" one has placed before the one who supposedly refuses to forgive..
Thanks to all who have taken the time to read and reply to this thread. the heart displayed by you regarding your forgiveness of those mentioned in my list of "leaders" is a true testament to your individual desires to be "imitators of god as dear children" by doing the things christ did. i respect and admire you and wish i could summjon up the desire to br as forgiving toward those "leaders" as most of you have been. those of you who are christians are indeed a credit to your heavenly father and your lord jesus christ!..............and i sncerely mean that!..........
Oakspear.........i was referring not just to myself as "the man who knew too much" but to the "many posters here" who found themselves in that position. however, you are correct in your inference that i was in a "leadership position" in twi prior to leaving in "86. i have , by the grace of god, not been in the position of "needing forgiveness" from a great many people i worked with in twi because i can honestly say before you , god and jesus christ that i never participated in any sexual misconduuct of any kind during my time in twi......nor did i steal or otherwise misappropriate any abs or other minstry funds, i was'nt a drunk...nor did i willfully or intentionally hurt, abuse or "seek vengeance" upon any believer i worked with during those years. there have been occasions through the years when believers whom i have hurt or offended confronted me and if indeed i hurt or wronged them i unhesitatingly apologized and ask for their forgiveness. i felt then and still believe today that this was a part of my responsibilty before god as a "leader"........if i have offended or wronged you please .........let's talk...............
To make a long story shorter (can't really say this will be "short"....hehehe).........my first 10 years in twi were fun, exciting, and, other than what seemed at times like more than my "fair share" of "facemeltings" from vp while in the corps,...i really enjoyed a lot of great experiences. my spouse was never molested, although she was once "groped" by vp but turned around and nearly smacked him one..........that was it......we never found ourselves "included" in any of the "secret esociety" sex games or any other wierd stuff......but things began to change for us in 1980 and grew far worse beginning with the "anniversary year" of '81-82....culminating in the mantle thing of october '82.......'82-86 were really awful as we seemed to be spending more and more time counselling people who were confiding in us about truly horrific things that were perpetrated against them at the hands of "leadership".....we were naive enough to think that the "power of the word" was enough with which to confront these "leaders" and reform the wrong doctrines and practices that seemed to be spreading like an out-of-control wildfire!.........boy were we ever wrong!!.....it finally got to the tipping point of where we resigned from our positions and left "the ministy" forever in "86.....we were never fired.....we considered our resignation a "protest" against the injustices we were receiving more and more firsthand information about......i felt it was my responsibilty to fight against these injustices on behalf of the hundreds of "little people" that i knew firsthand had been betrayed by their "ministry" and it's leadersl......
that lasted about 2 years until i decided it was no longer "profitable" to continue fighting the viscious lies and personal atacks levelled against me by twi and it's "leaders".......so, i went back to school.....real, accreditted school....and took on the profession in which i work to this day.......i truly love what i do and find it wonderfu;lly fulfilling and rewarding......i lived a happily twi-free life until 1999, when i was contacted by paul a. and encouraged to become a "poster" at waydale.....i also became involved with his and fern's legal battle with twi until they won their settlement.........waydale stopped and i hung around the greaespot until martindale was forced to resign.........i felt my contribution was done so i just faded out of the picture enjoying life and my job........i remain a fiercely independent, unchurched christian who has decided not to be a part of any christian or religious organization of any kind............
My current presence here at the gsc is due to an interesting confluence of events in several twi "offshoots".......a few months back, a former "leader"of one of the "offshoots" contacted me out -of-the-blue telling me of some of the recent events that had occurred in that group, asking me to "check out" gsc to catch up on all the facts which had been posted here and then give my thoughts regarding it all.........i finally got around to doing that about a month ago and spent a whole heckuva lot of time reading a lot of threads in various forums........as i read, i really started getting "bugged" reading the posts by people who had shared their stories back during the waydale days and were still being challenged by some of the vp "protectors" i referred to in my previous post.......then i read posts from people who had left in the mid "90's, and after 2000 and some even very recently and found that the horror stories were not only continuing but in some cases were even worse!.........i started seeing the same injustices still being repeated and in fact worsening into the so called "present truth"!........
my father was a union organizer in the 1930's in the southern us and mexico until enlisting in the army in december, 1941.....after serving in the european theater through 1945 he was stationed in the american sector of occupied germany and participated in the postpwar denazification as an intelligence officer in the oss from "46-'48......it was during this time that he met my mother whose family were holocaust survivors of dachau, imprisoned not because they were jews, (they were'nt)....but because my maternal grandfather had been a "social democrat"...(socialist)..political leader before the war and was a political prisoner at dachau......so, i admit to having a "quixotic idealism" against injustice programmed into me by folks which may indeed be a characer flaw..........
i'm not as good at the forgiveness part of christianity as many of you are here.........i do not feel i need to forgive the "leaders" i mentioned in my previous post in order to accomplish something good for myself.......although i certainly understand and appreciate what bliss, washington weather, ex10, ww, cman and others have posted here....and as i said before i truly do respect you for being able to do what you needed to do to move on with life.........i honestly have not thought much at all about twi or it's "offshoots" during the last 7 years, until i started reading here at the spot..........my recent reading adventures reminded me that all those "leaders" i menioned above still have never publicly apologized to any one!.......they continue taking money from people they're lying to.....duping them into the same old "myths and legends" ....... the horror stories i've read about the stuff that's transpired from '89 to the present are just as bad as the ones i knew about up through '88 when i "checked out" of it all..........imo.............they still owe god and thousands of god's children an apology!.......and, as of right now, i still don't forgive any of them............forget 'em?.......easy!..........forgive 'em?...........not until they apologize!............
if i have offended anyone here........i apologize........i ask your forgiveness............i wish you all peace...........................and,.....btw.............don't worry.........i'm happy!...............
Hello Happy Person. Seems we may have known each other at one time. Greets.
Since nearly everything a person truly needs to know to succeed in life and indeed, be happy, can be learned in an Eastwood movie, I would have to quote this from Magnum Force, which your posts reminded me of:
A man's got to know his limitations.
We lift our weight when push comes to shove, whatever it is. Knowing where we're at on the topic of forgiveness is important I think. We can't do more than we can do and we should learn to live with that even as we try to reach a little higher, if we sense there's a higher level we can achieve.
One of the takes on the snip "no condemnation in Christ" that I've pondered over the years is how easy it is, how human, to condemn myself and generally feel like crap when I don't live up to what I feel I can be or what others see in me. At my best I'm probably reasonably good, not all that bad. It's depressing to see myself ever live down to my lowest standards. I feel bad and I condemn myself as being bad. But I'm not. I have hope, in a new day. Get up and put one foot in front of the other and no matter what, do it again. And again. There's really nothing else you can do. It's exhilerating to hit the brighter side and be the me I know I am.
If I can forgive myself, it's the start of learning to forgive others. Others - seems easy compared to living inside this skin, somedays and getting on with it. Others - you can do whatever the hel l you want, if I forgive you that's that. Now beat it. Me, I have to live with. Try waking up to that every morning. It's no picnic, trust me.
But I can only get better by moving on and up, best as I can and trying to learn to live within my limits, while working on extending them. Who knows what can be done, given the time and effort?
what Bliss and ex10 said makes sense to me, and i think of Jesus' words on the cross (which Washington alluded to)
I also think of Stephen in Acts 7:59,60
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them! And having said this he fell asleep.
Stephen obviously forgave those who killed him. I also wonder how much his dying prayer had to do with the future salvation of Saul of Tarsus who in the words of the NIV (Acts 8:1)
And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.
it's quite plain that they were unrepentant at that time, so i would take exception to your question:
That said, repentence for the wrongdoer is a very good thing, as is apology and reparation. God's judgment is up to Him, and I'm sure He will take into account whatever is right.
Last year, not far from here, a milkman killed a bunch of Amish kids at a school. He was going to rape the little girls first, but thankfully he didn't. I passed by the place today. It's absolutely inconceivable, but it happened. Where do you stick this stuff in your heart? There's nowhere for it but to give it to God.
It is inconceivable. I remember that the Amish people captured the attention of the world, not just because this horiffic crime was perpetrated against them, but also because they publically forgave the murderer and his family. The media was buzzing about their amazing words of forgiveness and how they reached out to muderer's wife in forgiveness and compassion, truly witnessing to the miraculous power of forgiveness.
hello socks.....my dear, old minster friend........again...happy b-day..............i'm sorry.........i'm tired...........just got home from an open heart case........seeing double and ready to hit the sack.......starting again in 4 and a half hours..........sorry.but i'm not understanding what you're saying here.......could be i'm just to beat.......but, if you don't mind...........could you tell me a bit more plainly what you're saying to me?.......i'm not following you.........but do know one thing.........love you and j.............thanks for your patience in helping me to understand your reply...............i'm hittin' the sack now socks..............peace..
I have no more bitterness as Grouco stated of the Way of how we expended our youth. I don't need the drama and learned as EX 10 to purge our luggage. I left my Samsonite on the dock long ago but keep my carry on.
Something I do carry is to never forgot what I was forgiven for, Oh boy. That is a daily if not moment process. It keeps me in check.
This keeps me humble as I know if you carry unforgiveness around that I am carrying poison around. I hurt only me.
I just can't be bothered!
Why people in the Way and now behave is beyond me but I am happy to not be controlled any longer and live my own life and make my own decisios right or wrong.
DWBH-Thanks for your heart and insight. I don't have a lot of time to post, but I do appreciate reading what others have said.
No on can dispute that we must forgive to keep a clear conscience. I think most here have done that.
But we don't have to forget about it.
It is good that we continue to bring up the fact that they have not asked for forgivness or admitted there was anything wrong. We can and must warn others of their evil deeds and hypocritical nature. No one can deny Jesus Christ did that when speaking of the religious zealots of his day.
I guess maybe I'm not as noble as some here cuz I haven't forgiven them nor do I think about forgiving them...
As far as "me" goes, I try not to hurt/offend/wrong anyone and if/when I do I ask their forgiveness (or at least their understanding that I screwed up and don't feel too good about it)...
My name is Tom and I was in a cult. Not just any cult, but a cult that hurt/used/abused and attempted to destroy people.
I blame myself for falling for it... no one else. Do I feel like I wasted years of my life? Sometimes I do. Did I ever hurt people? I probably did, although never intentionally or in a calculated way... (unless you count bringing people into TWI)
Forgiveness is kind of 'foreign' to me as far as the giving of it goes... and I really don't think it bothers me that much, doesn't weigh me down in any way (of course, that could be a product of being in a cult for years)
The way I look at things is that "it's on their ledger"... know what I mean? It's their problem to deal with... I don't feel like I have to forget what they've done, to me that would be foolish, on the contrary (unless it's a one time screw up) I kind of feel the need to be on the lookout for 'them' and also feel like I have a responsibility to my fellow humans to let them know what these folks were/are capable of (again, unless it was a one time thing)...
I think maybe it's the old "it's not a sin to make a mistake but it is a sin to keep making the same mistake over and over"... it's probably that kind of thing with me. If you make a mistake deal with it. If you keep doing it over and over... well, that's your problem BUT I'm sure going to let others know to be on the lookout for you... of that you can be certain.
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' words on another important aspect of the whole process:
Matthew 18:15-17 NIV
15If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
I look at forgiveness as only one step in the whole process of reconciliation. Isn't reconciliation the ultimate goal when talking about forgiveness? At least in Christian circles. Isn't that how God works? The Holy Spirit convicts someone of sin. Then God wants the person to acknowledge their sin [admit their guilt] as the first step toward reconciliation to Him. The sinner realizes the enormity of their offense - and seeking forgiveness - is drawn to the most logical place...the Cross of Christ!... God desires to forgive - the sinner craves to be forgiven...And both sides [yes, even the sinner to some degree] are aware of what it took to get the "negotiations" thus far.
In reference to TWI-leadership offenses - the reconciliation process [brother-to-brother] is stymied by the offending party's refusal to admit an offense has been made. I think it is unbiblical to demand forgiveness in a situation where the other aspects that relate to the reconciliation process are sorely neglected.
As far as the offended party actually forgiving the offender anyway – I think in some unspoken way that may happen a lot more than we realize – just as a matter of releasing ourselves from the bonds of anger, resentment, hatred, etc. I wonder if sometimes we mistake this longing for reconciliation as being unforgiving.
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' wo
Linda Z
There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize"
rascal
Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... becaus
bliss
Thanks DWBH,
this topic is a big one in my family's life. More on the personal repentance aspect than forgiveness though. But, to answer your question on my thoughts............
I believe they(all of the above) get forgiveness from GOD, when they repent. Which they haven't (not publicly anyway). So, they will have to answer to HIM.
They get forgiveness from ME, when "I"give it. I will not allow them to have the power over me by being mad, angry, bitter, and unforgiving....................
So, I forgive them, for MY SAKE, not theirs.
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ex10
Well, Don't Worry, my short answer to your questions is, a long answer. :lol:
When I choose to forgive someone, I do it for my health and personal peace. It matters not to me, whether they choose to remain an ignorant numb butt. That's their personal choice. So be it.
For my own sake, I purge my mind of the baggage that comes along with holding that grudge, when I by my own choice, recognize the evil perpetrated against moi, get real mad about it, grieve, cuss, throw things, whatever is needed for my release, and then let go of it.
This technique works especially well, when I need to forgive someone who is deceased. Once I've sufficiently purged, with a little help from Mom, friends, relatives, wandering pedestrians, Jesus, Fellow Greasespotters, whoever..........then I can get on with the business of living my life, baggage free.
My outlook is simplistic, I know. But I tend to be on the selfish side, and really hate prolonging the torment. ;) I have too much life ahead of me, to stay stuck in past crud. After all, I'm still trying to find my bliss.
PS disclaimer: This is my own personal technique, perfected over the years. I would never presume to demand that anyone else adopt my strategy. As some as so prone to do here. I don't believe in black/white "principles" anymore. Just getting up in the morning being excited about my day in the life, is enuff for me.
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washingtonweather
Yeah -- what ex10 said--
More clearly - when JC did it on the cross, he did it for his own fulfillment of the law, not because they did anything to him.
In my life its got to be so I can move on....does my forgiveness equate to their repentance--- I dunno - its really apples and oranges to me.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Maybe my perspective is a little different than others...I no longer feel injured by what happened in twi...I'm over it.
...and I'm a better man now than I was then. I look at them with disgust and with righteous anger...I would forgive them in a heartbeat if they came to me and said they were sorry...but they have not done that. It's not like I am preoccupied with thinking about them (I stop thinking about them when I leave this website)...and I am certainly not being consumed by "bitterness"...I simply think that they are wrong in what they do and they are hurting people...and I say so.
I have too much going on in my life to spend much time thinking about twi...My forgiving them or not does not bother me one way or the other. We all stand before God and that's what counts. I am responsible for my own sins...they are responsible for theirs...
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anotherDan
what Bliss and ex10 said makes sense to me, and i think of Jesus' words on the cross (which Washington alluded to)
it's quite plain that they were unrepentant at that time, so i would take exception to your question:That said, repentence for the wrongdoer is a very good thing, as is apology and reparation. God's judgment is up to Him, and I'm sure He will take into account whatever is right.
My favorite "forgiveness" quote comes from Derek Prince, and it goes something like this:
Last year, not far from here, a milkman killed a bunch of Amish kids at a school. He was going to rape the little girls first, but thankfully he didn't. I passed by the place today. It's absolutely inconceivable, but it happened. Where do you stick this stuff in your heart? There's nowhere for it but to give it to God.
When Jesus said, "he that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also..." I no longer think of the stuff I used to think about. I think of forgiving the unforgivable, of not turning his face from spitting, of his words "happy are ye..." in the sermon on the mount. That's the tough stuff.
I hope that's considered and respectful enough.
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Twinky
Forgiveness is as much for oneself as for another. Like AD's quote about non-forgiveness being a poison. It is when we start to forgive that we get healed. Lack of forgiveness is an open sore in one's own heart.
We are to bless those who persecute us. Pray for them. Read how Job prayed for his persecutors. To truly pray for someone you cannot hold unforgiveness against them; you have to let it go.
Refusing to forgive someone because they haven't shown they are repentant or haven't apologized to you is Wayspeak. That's what LCM taught, as an excuse for getting people to grovel to him (him!)when he had M&A'd them, humiliated them and slandered them vilely.
"Be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Where does this say, only if they seek forgiveness first?
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WordWolf
Then again, there's forgiveness, and there's atonement, and there's reinstatement.
I can forgive someone of wrongs done to me, but that doesn't mean I let them do it again.
If someone stole money from me, I can forgive them, but forget any chance of me
leaving any money near them again.
If someone abused authority under me, I can forgive them, but forget any chance of me
letting them anywhere near responsibility again.
That's just ASKING for trouble.
Demonstrated remorse is important- it shows a person knows they did wrong, and is
at least claiming they will attempt to correct their wrong, or at least not do it again.
However, that doesn't mean they get reinstated to any previous position that they
used TO do wrong.
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cman
There was no repentance here. This stands in the face of the not repenting. Forgiveness happens and is going to happen. It sweeps in waves over the spirit of man. Love is empty without it.
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anotherDan
WW: definitely
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doojable
The subject of forgiveness was touched on in a thread by the same name. There are some quotes from a book, What's So Amazing About Grace by Phillip Yancy.
Forgiveness Thread
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newlife
Thanks for the topic.......
I agree with what many of the people have said so far. Forgiveness benefits both parties, but the only party to actually receive the benefit is the party that forgives. If someone has done something to me......if I refuse to forgive them, it's like me drinking poison waiting for the other party to drop dead. That's insane to do that. Somehow, I think I used to think that withholding forgiveness really made the other people suffer for their wrong doing......when in fact, they usually could either care less, or are completely unaware of what they have actually done, and they have gone on living their lives without one thought a day about what I am consumed in my thinking about aLL day. Who's paying the price here? Well for one, I am....cause like someone said, I'm the one that carries it around....I take it everywhere I go......I never leave it anywhere....I talk about it, I think about it...I play it over and over again in my head, it grows and increases my own personal pain. Will they pay a price? sure I think so....but I leave that to God. God is a just God. So, in summary, I have acquired the practice of forgiveness and doing it quickly cause I know what it does to me. Would I like to have an apology......Of course.......will I get an apology? who knows. My forgiveness is not continguent upon whether or not they apologize......Oh yes, I forgot something else.....I pray for those who wrong me and that is not an easy thing to do in the beginning. Why you ask? Two reasons....one the bible tells me to do that and Two.....I have found that is a phenomenal way of ridding myself of all those feelings I have toward that person. I pray for them what I would want in my life......that they would have health, that they would be healed of anything that they need to be healed of, I pray they would prosper and that they would have blessings that I would want in my life. The result........Pretty soon I am like no longer carrying even the feelings I once had for them. God is pretty smart on this subject.....we should follow the directions......It's a great freedom for us......forgivenss and prayer!!
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Oakspear
DWBH:
In general I agree with what you're saying. In addition, not being a Christian I feel no compulsion to follow Jesus' (or anyone else's in the bible) example of forgiveness.
But your characterization of yourself as a "man who knew too much" suggests that you were in a position of leadership yourself. Have you any forgveness to seek?
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oldiesman
Don't Worry Be Happy! Glad you can be so happy starting this thread. :)
I will answer some of your statements here:
(1) By admonishing victims to forgive as Jesus instructed, one is not attacking them.
(2) Communicating scriptures on forgiveness of men doesn't mean the communicator is engaging in idolatry of those men.
(3) Forgiveness by the victim is not contingent upon the offender being contrite.
Don't Worry Be Happy! :)
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Ham
true, but being contrite would certainly help, even perhaps remove the "stumbling block" one has placed before the one who supposedly refuses to forgive..
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DontWorryBeHappy
Thanks to all who have taken the time to read and reply to this thread. the heart displayed by you regarding your forgiveness of those mentioned in my list of "leaders" is a true testament to your individual desires to be "imitators of god as dear children" by doing the things christ did. i respect and admire you and wish i could summjon up the desire to br as forgiving toward those "leaders" as most of you have been. those of you who are christians are indeed a credit to your heavenly father and your lord jesus christ!..............and i sncerely mean that!..........
Oakspear.........i was referring not just to myself as "the man who knew too much" but to the "many posters here" who found themselves in that position. however, you are correct in your inference that i was in a "leadership position" in twi prior to leaving in "86. i have , by the grace of god, not been in the position of "needing forgiveness" from a great many people i worked with in twi because i can honestly say before you , god and jesus christ that i never participated in any sexual misconduuct of any kind during my time in twi......nor did i steal or otherwise misappropriate any abs or other minstry funds, i was'nt a drunk...nor did i willfully or intentionally hurt, abuse or "seek vengeance" upon any believer i worked with during those years. there have been occasions through the years when believers whom i have hurt or offended confronted me and if indeed i hurt or wronged them i unhesitatingly apologized and ask for their forgiveness. i felt then and still believe today that this was a part of my responsibilty before god as a "leader"........if i have offended or wronged you please .........let's talk...............
To make a long story shorter (can't really say this will be "short"....hehehe).........my first 10 years in twi were fun, exciting, and, other than what seemed at times like more than my "fair share" of "facemeltings" from vp while in the corps,...i really enjoyed a lot of great experiences. my spouse was never molested, although she was once "groped" by vp but turned around and nearly smacked him one..........that was it......we never found ourselves "included" in any of the "secret esociety" sex games or any other wierd stuff......but things began to change for us in 1980 and grew far worse beginning with the "anniversary year" of '81-82....culminating in the mantle thing of october '82.......'82-86 were really awful as we seemed to be spending more and more time counselling people who were confiding in us about truly horrific things that were perpetrated against them at the hands of "leadership".....we were naive enough to think that the "power of the word" was enough with which to confront these "leaders" and reform the wrong doctrines and practices that seemed to be spreading like an out-of-control wildfire!.........boy were we ever wrong!!.....it finally got to the tipping point of where we resigned from our positions and left "the ministy" forever in "86.....we were never fired.....we considered our resignation a "protest" against the injustices we were receiving more and more firsthand information about......i felt it was my responsibilty to fight against these injustices on behalf of the hundreds of "little people" that i knew firsthand had been betrayed by their "ministry" and it's leadersl......
that lasted about 2 years until i decided it was no longer "profitable" to continue fighting the viscious lies and personal atacks levelled against me by twi and it's "leaders".......so, i went back to school.....real, accreditted school....and took on the profession in which i work to this day.......i truly love what i do and find it wonderfu;lly fulfilling and rewarding......i lived a happily twi-free life until 1999, when i was contacted by paul a. and encouraged to become a "poster" at waydale.....i also became involved with his and fern's legal battle with twi until they won their settlement.........waydale stopped and i hung around the greaespot until martindale was forced to resign.........i felt my contribution was done so i just faded out of the picture enjoying life and my job........i remain a fiercely independent, unchurched christian who has decided not to be a part of any christian or religious organization of any kind............
My current presence here at the gsc is due to an interesting confluence of events in several twi "offshoots".......a few months back, a former "leader"of one of the "offshoots" contacted me out -of-the-blue telling me of some of the recent events that had occurred in that group, asking me to "check out" gsc to catch up on all the facts which had been posted here and then give my thoughts regarding it all.........i finally got around to doing that about a month ago and spent a whole heckuva lot of time reading a lot of threads in various forums........as i read, i really started getting "bugged" reading the posts by people who had shared their stories back during the waydale days and were still being challenged by some of the vp "protectors" i referred to in my previous post.......then i read posts from people who had left in the mid "90's, and after 2000 and some even very recently and found that the horror stories were not only continuing but in some cases were even worse!.........i started seeing the same injustices still being repeated and in fact worsening into the so called "present truth"!........
my father was a union organizer in the 1930's in the southern us and mexico until enlisting in the army in december, 1941.....after serving in the european theater through 1945 he was stationed in the american sector of occupied germany and participated in the postpwar denazification as an intelligence officer in the oss from "46-'48......it was during this time that he met my mother whose family were holocaust survivors of dachau, imprisoned not because they were jews, (they were'nt)....but because my maternal grandfather had been a "social democrat"...(socialist)..political leader before the war and was a political prisoner at dachau......so, i admit to having a "quixotic idealism" against injustice programmed into me by folks which may indeed be a characer flaw..........
i'm not as good at the forgiveness part of christianity as many of you are here.........i do not feel i need to forgive the "leaders" i mentioned in my previous post in order to accomplish something good for myself.......although i certainly understand and appreciate what bliss, washington weather, ex10, ww, cman and others have posted here....and as i said before i truly do respect you for being able to do what you needed to do to move on with life.........i honestly have not thought much at all about twi or it's "offshoots" during the last 7 years, until i started reading here at the spot..........my recent reading adventures reminded me that all those "leaders" i menioned above still have never publicly apologized to any one!.......they continue taking money from people they're lying to.....duping them into the same old "myths and legends" ....... the horror stories i've read about the stuff that's transpired from '89 to the present are just as bad as the ones i knew about up through '88 when i "checked out" of it all..........imo.............they still owe god and thousands of god's children an apology!.......and, as of right now, i still don't forgive any of them............forget 'em?.......easy!..........forgive 'em?...........not until they apologize!............
if i have offended anyone here........i apologize........i ask your forgiveness............i wish you all peace...........................and,.....btw.............don't worry.........i'm happy!...............
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anotherDan
DWBH, thanks for sharing your story with us.
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socks
Hello Happy Person. Seems we may have known each other at one time. Greets.
Since nearly everything a person truly needs to know to succeed in life and indeed, be happy, can be learned in an Eastwood movie, I would have to quote this from Magnum Force, which your posts reminded me of:
A man's got to know his limitations.
We lift our weight when push comes to shove, whatever it is. Knowing where we're at on the topic of forgiveness is important I think. We can't do more than we can do and we should learn to live with that even as we try to reach a little higher, if we sense there's a higher level we can achieve.
One of the takes on the snip "no condemnation in Christ" that I've pondered over the years is how easy it is, how human, to condemn myself and generally feel like crap when I don't live up to what I feel I can be or what others see in me. At my best I'm probably reasonably good, not all that bad. It's depressing to see myself ever live down to my lowest standards. I feel bad and I condemn myself as being bad. But I'm not. I have hope, in a new day. Get up and put one foot in front of the other and no matter what, do it again. And again. There's really nothing else you can do. It's exhilerating to hit the brighter side and be the me I know I am.
If I can forgive myself, it's the start of learning to forgive others. Others - seems easy compared to living inside this skin, somedays and getting on with it. Others - you can do whatever the hel l you want, if I forgive you that's that. Now beat it. Me, I have to live with. Try waking up to that every morning. It's no picnic, trust me.
But I can only get better by moving on and up, best as I can and trying to learn to live within my limits, while working on extending them. Who knows what can be done, given the time and effort?
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wrdsandwrks
I also think of Stephen in Acts 7:59,60
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them! And having said this he fell asleep.
Stephen obviously forgave those who killed him. I also wonder how much his dying prayer had to do with the future salvation of Saul of Tarsus who in the words of the NIV (Acts 8:1)
And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.
It is inconceivable. I remember that the Amish people captured the attention of the world, not just because this horiffic crime was perpetrated against them, but also because they publically forgave the murderer and his family. The media was buzzing about their amazing words of forgiveness and how they reached out to muderer's wife in forgiveness and compassion, truly witnessing to the miraculous power of forgiveness.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hello socks.....my dear, old minster friend........again...happy b-day..............i'm sorry.........i'm tired...........just got home from an open heart case........seeing double and ready to hit the sack.......starting again in 4 and a half hours..........sorry.but i'm not understanding what you're saying here.......could be i'm just to beat.......but, if you don't mind...........could you tell me a bit more plainly what you're saying to me?.......i'm not following you.........but do know one thing.........love you and j.............thanks for your patience in helping me to understand your reply...............i'm hittin' the sack now socks..............peace..
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socks
Don't worry.
Be happy.
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fellowshipper
I have no more bitterness as Grouco stated of the Way of how we expended our youth. I don't need the drama and learned as EX 10 to purge our luggage. I left my Samsonite on the dock long ago but keep my carry on.
Something I do carry is to never forgot what I was forgiven for, Oh boy. That is a daily if not moment process. It keeps me in check.
This keeps me humble as I know if you carry unforgiveness around that I am carrying poison around. I hurt only me.
I just can't be bothered!
Why people in the Way and now behave is beyond me but I am happy to not be controlled any longer and live my own life and make my own decisios right or wrong.
Life is good.
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polar bear
DWBH-Thanks for your heart and insight. I don't have a lot of time to post, but I do appreciate reading what others have said.
No on can dispute that we must forgive to keep a clear conscience. I think most here have done that.
But we don't have to forget about it.
It is good that we continue to bring up the fact that they have not asked for forgivness or admitted there was anything wrong. We can and must warn others of their evil deeds and hypocritical nature. No one can deny Jesus Christ did that when speaking of the religious zealots of his day.
I'm glad you came back to share with us.
PB
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Tom Strange
I guess maybe I'm not as noble as some here cuz I haven't forgiven them nor do I think about forgiving them...
As far as "me" goes, I try not to hurt/offend/wrong anyone and if/when I do I ask their forgiveness (or at least their understanding that I screwed up and don't feel too good about it)...
My name is Tom and I was in a cult. Not just any cult, but a cult that hurt/used/abused and attempted to destroy people.
I blame myself for falling for it... no one else. Do I feel like I wasted years of my life? Sometimes I do. Did I ever hurt people? I probably did, although never intentionally or in a calculated way... (unless you count bringing people into TWI)
Forgiveness is kind of 'foreign' to me as far as the giving of it goes... and I really don't think it bothers me that much, doesn't weigh me down in any way (of course, that could be a product of being in a cult for years)
The way I look at things is that "it's on their ledger"... know what I mean? It's their problem to deal with... I don't feel like I have to forget what they've done, to me that would be foolish, on the contrary (unless it's a one time screw up) I kind of feel the need to be on the lookout for 'them' and also feel like I have a responsibility to my fellow humans to let them know what these folks were/are capable of (again, unless it was a one time thing)...
I think maybe it's the old "it's not a sin to make a mistake but it is a sin to keep making the same mistake over and over"... it's probably that kind of thing with me. If you make a mistake deal with it. If you keep doing it over and over... well, that's your problem BUT I'm sure going to let others know to be on the lookout for you... of that you can be certain.
...but that's just me.
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' words on another important aspect of the whole process:
Matthew 18:15-17 NIV
15 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
I look at forgiveness as only one step in the whole process of reconciliation. Isn't reconciliation the ultimate goal when talking about forgiveness? At least in Christian circles. Isn't that how God works? The Holy Spirit convicts someone of sin. Then God wants the person to acknowledge their sin [admit their guilt] as the first step toward reconciliation to Him. The sinner realizes the enormity of their offense - and seeking forgiveness - is drawn to the most logical place...the Cross of Christ!... God desires to forgive - the sinner craves to be forgiven...And both sides [yes, even the sinner to some degree] are aware of what it took to get the "negotiations" thus far.
In reference to TWI-leadership offenses - the reconciliation process [brother-to-brother] is stymied by the offending party's refusal to admit an offense has been made. I think it is unbiblical to demand forgiveness in a situation where the other aspects that relate to the reconciliation process are sorely neglected.
As far as the offended party actually forgiving the offender anyway – I think in some unspoken way that may happen a lot more than we realize – just as a matter of releasing ourselves from the bonds of anger, resentment, hatred, etc. I wonder if sometimes we mistake this longing for reconciliation as being unforgiving.
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