II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.)
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
--------------
[God warned that false prophets AND false teachers would come,
and introduce "destructive heresies" secretly. They would teach (by action and lesson) SENSUALITY- a following-after of
lusts and the deeds of the flesh. Their GREED was the motive for EXPLOITING CHRISTIANS, and why they lied to them.]
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
[Animals operate primarily from instinct. They don't really REASON, or deal in abstractions.
Humans were granted reason to make their own decisions. Humans have no excuse when they
choose to embrace instincts. Some humans have chosen to sin in the daytime. That's one thing,
but here, WORSE is being spoken of- these chronic, voluntary sinners choose to DECEIVE and
pretend they are fine, upstanding leaders- with small exceptions for when they're interacting
with their fellow Christians.]
----------------
15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
=======
[balaam was a prophet of God, and was supposed to SERVE GOD.
Instead Balaam served his appetites, Balaam served SIN.
Balaam loved MONEY, and exhibited MADNESS over it. He really, really loved money.
None of us dislike it, but this man was willing to practice idolatry over it.
People like him are haughty and full of self-pride, and teach others to sin and follow lusts.
They speak of FREEDOM, even FREEDOM and LIBERTY IN CHRIST,
while serving sin wholeheartedly.]
=========
Jude 3-11
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
[We're being warned that among the Christians, some UNGODLY people have turned God's GRACE-
and the freedoms under Christ- and made them an EXCUSE TO SIN.]
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
=========
[This is serious stuff.
God's putting these guys in the same category as Sodom and Gomorrah.]
===
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
[There's the connection to Balaam again.
They are envious and despise God's counsel like Cain,
and money produced an idolatry like with Balaam.]
=========
Revelation 2:13-15.
13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
-----
[balaam wasn't just out for MONEY.
(Balaam wasn't a sinner for one long, greedy weekend. He was weak of character besides that.
Balaam taught Israel to perform idolatry and IMMORAL ACTS.
I bet there was money in it for him to do that....]
I had always wondered, over the years, exactly what was the purpose of these few small books that are sandwiched between Paul's writings and the majestic book of Revelation. I and II Peter, James, and especially Jude.
A year or so ago I was reading them and it hit me like a ton of bricks, that those little books back there were written specifically for Christians who are living in the "last days," or the end days (the perilous times) that come before the gathering and the tribulation begins.
Revelation, though specifically written "for the church," deals with Christ's and God's judgment on an unbelieving world - what is to come after the gathering.
But the admonitions in Jude and Peter, et al., are there for us - how to deal and live in these last perilous days - now, how to not get seduced from proper doctrine.
50 years ago, or 100 years ago, it was not needful - the time was not what it is today. Now, these little books open and unfold and we see them in a way we never would have thought of even 20 or 30 years ago.
Satan's ministers in the last days will be in the church. He doesn't care about other religions - they aren't going to lead anyone to Christ. Thus, target those who have the potential to be Christians - i.e., the places where Christ is taught. Keep as many out of the coming Kingdom as possible. Take as many down with him as he can.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The basic idea of an antichrist is they claim to have a special anointing. By way of this, they set themselves up in place of Christ in the lives of Christians. An antichrist is a false teacher. They go out on their own. This is set in contrast with the verse below.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction (anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
The word for anointing according to Thayer’s:
1) to anoint
a) consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with the necessary powers for its administration
b) enduing Christians with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
This verse is making the point that all Christians are anointed and therefore not to believe some special anointing.
1Jo 2:21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
They teach lies.
1Jo 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
The word for deny is not meaning they say Christ doesn’t exist. They teach false things about Him and deny Him and God in the manner that they live and teach. Their teaching will promote lawlessness.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
They wouldn’t succeed in seducing Christians if they weren’t “teaching” the Bible.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
These verses in essence describe the cult phenomena. This chapter emphasizes the need to abide in Christ in life style in contrast to the false teaching that promotes and ignores lawlessness (sin).
And tying into what WW posted, these are the preceding verses that introduce the subject of antichrists:
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Once again you see the motive of false teachers/antichrists.
Matt 10:16 - Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
I was fooled once - hopefully, I'll be able to identify any future Balaams I may run into much quicker, easier and before there's any damage to me and my loved ones.
Remembering sin doesn't mean you don't forgive. Forgiveness doesn't mean you excuse the sin either.
One can't continually speak of and remember someone's sins, not excuse them, and still be following Jesus's instructions to forgive. Can't be done. Especially when using the bible as a pretext to condemn someone to eternal death.
Golly if that's how shallow forgiveness really is, I think we are all in deeep doo doo.
Gee seems to me Jesus didn`t follow your rules either oldies...he remembered the saducees and pharacies sins...and spoke of them...He never asked anybody to forgive them, just condemned them and their actions soundly.
What a meanie...speaking and teaching in a manner that billions of people through out history would read about and recognize the evil...tut tut how unloving, how unkind....guess he is right there with us in deep doo doo.
Gosh...and he has already told us that there are going to be some that he will tell to depart on the day of judgement who call on his name....how unforgiving...what a jerk....
Lifted, of course it's clear that God spoke to Balaam. And?
Right, It wasn't just jackass speak, inspite of the "trouble" Balaam had in following instructions properly. and even after God had to use his jackass to get through. It didn't stop God from communicating directly with him. or, if you wish, the fact that God did so didn't mean Balaam wasnt messing up big time.
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WordWolf
II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.)
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
--------------
[God warned that false prophets AND false teachers would come,
and introduce "destructive heresies" secretly. They would teach (by action and lesson) SENSUALITY- a following-after of
lusts and the deeds of the flesh. Their GREED was the motive for EXPLOITING CHRISTIANS, and why they lied to them.]
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
[Animals operate primarily from instinct. They don't really REASON, or deal in abstractions.
Humans were granted reason to make their own decisions. Humans have no excuse when they
choose to embrace instincts. Some humans have chosen to sin in the daytime. That's one thing,
but here, WORSE is being spoken of- these chronic, voluntary sinners choose to DECEIVE and
pretend they are fine, upstanding leaders- with small exceptions for when they're interacting
with their fellow Christians.]
----------------
15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
=======
[balaam was a prophet of God, and was supposed to SERVE GOD.
Instead Balaam served his appetites, Balaam served SIN.
Balaam loved MONEY, and exhibited MADNESS over it. He really, really loved money.
None of us dislike it, but this man was willing to practice idolatry over it.
People like him are haughty and full of self-pride, and teach others to sin and follow lusts.
They speak of FREEDOM, even FREEDOM and LIBERTY IN CHRIST,
while serving sin wholeheartedly.]
=========
Jude 3-11
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
[We're being warned that among the Christians, some UNGODLY people have turned God's GRACE-
and the freedoms under Christ- and made them an EXCUSE TO SIN.]
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
=========
[This is serious stuff.
God's putting these guys in the same category as Sodom and Gomorrah.]
===
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
[There's the connection to Balaam again.
They are envious and despise God's counsel like Cain,
and money produced an idolatry like with Balaam.]
=========
Revelation 2:13-15.
13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
-----
[balaam wasn't just out for MONEY.
(Balaam wasn't a sinner for one long, greedy weekend. He was weak of character besides that.
Balaam taught Israel to perform idolatry and IMMORAL ACTS.
I bet there was money in it for him to do that....]
Do these warnings remind anyone of anyone?
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rascal
Gosh if THAT doesn`t describe vp and twi :o
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WordWolf
We have "false teachers" TEACHING SENSUALITY- to follow lusts and deeds of the flesh, greed and exploitation of Christians
to whom they lied.
We have those who have trained their hearts to greed.
They served their appetites, and SIN.
They taught "we're free and not under law", and used that as an EXCUSE to SIN unreservedly,
and TEACH OTHERS TO SIN.
They despised God's counsel. They taught others to perform immoral acts.
Now,
on the other hand,
we had vpw......
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oldiesman
My response is that there's plenty of sin to go around... and I would offer the following serious admonitions from Jesus:
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Sunesis
I had always wondered, over the years, exactly what was the purpose of these few small books that are sandwiched between Paul's writings and the majestic book of Revelation. I and II Peter, James, and especially Jude.
A year or so ago I was reading them and it hit me like a ton of bricks, that those little books back there were written specifically for Christians who are living in the "last days," or the end days (the perilous times) that come before the gathering and the tribulation begins.
Revelation, though specifically written "for the church," deals with Christ's and God's judgment on an unbelieving world - what is to come after the gathering.
But the admonitions in Jude and Peter, et al., are there for us - how to deal and live in these last perilous days - now, how to not get seduced from proper doctrine.
50 years ago, or 100 years ago, it was not needful - the time was not what it is today. Now, these little books open and unfold and we see them in a way we never would have thought of even 20 or 30 years ago.
Satan's ministers in the last days will be in the church. He doesn't care about other religions - they aren't going to lead anyone to Christ. Thus, target those who have the potential to be Christians - i.e., the places where Christ is taught. Keep as many out of the coming Kingdom as possible. Take as many down with him as he can.
Great words to take heed to WW.
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oldiesman
This is a good thread to see just how many posters in their hearts wish Mr. Wierwille eternal death. So posters, please post your true feelings.
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another spot
Antichrists:
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The basic idea of an antichrist is they claim to have a special anointing. By way of this, they set themselves up in place of Christ in the lives of Christians. An antichrist is a false teacher. They go out on their own. This is set in contrast with the verse below.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction (anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
The word for anointing according to Thayer’s:
1) to anoint
a) consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with the necessary powers for its administration
b) enduing Christians with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
This verse is making the point that all Christians are anointed and therefore not to believe some special anointing.
1Jo 2:21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
They teach lies.
1Jo 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
The word for deny is not meaning they say Christ doesn’t exist. They teach false things about Him and deny Him and God in the manner that they live and teach. Their teaching will promote lawlessness.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
They wouldn’t succeed in seducing Christians if they weren’t “teaching” the Bible.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
These verses in essence describe the cult phenomena. This chapter emphasizes the need to abide in Christ in life style in contrast to the false teaching that promotes and ignores lawlessness (sin).
And tying into what WW posted, these are the preceding verses that introduce the subject of antichrists:
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Once again you see the motive of false teachers/antichrists.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I believe Wierwille was Christian and therefore has eternal life.
That's because of GOD'S GRACE, not because of Wierwille's works.
Too bad he felt the need to continue in sin, so that grace might abound.
George
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WordWolf
This is a good thread to see how many posters are willing to try to discredit verses or distract from them
to try to remove their applicability to vpw and others.
So posters, please post your true feelings.
Too bad.
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ex10
Well done, WW. I get so tired of people here comparing VPW to King David or the Apostle Paul. I think it's insulting to God and Jesus, as well.
If anybody insists on comparing VPW to a bible character, Balaam is the perfect choice. Thanks for starting the thread, WW. :wub:
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Belle
Once again, WordWolf - excellent thread!
Matt 10:16 - Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
I was fooled once - hopefully, I'll be able to identify any future Balaams I may run into much quicker, easier and before there's any damage to me and my loved ones.
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Nottawayfer
Remembering sin doesn't mean you don't forgive. Forgiveness doesn't mean you excuse the sin either.
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oldiesman
One can't continually speak of and remember someone's sins, not excuse them, and still be following Jesus's instructions to forgive. Can't be done. Especially when using the bible as a pretext to condemn someone to eternal death.
Golly if that's how shallow forgiveness really is, I think we are all in deeep doo doo.
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rascal
Gee seems to me Jesus didn`t follow your rules either oldies...he remembered the saducees and pharacies sins...and spoke of them...He never asked anybody to forgive them, just condemned them and their actions soundly.
What a meanie...speaking and teaching in a manner that billions of people through out history would read about and recognize the evil...tut tut how unloving, how unkind....guess he is right there with us in deep doo doo.
Gosh...and he has already told us that there are going to be some that he will tell to depart on the day of judgement who call on his name....how unforgiving...what a jerk....
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Lifted Up
Does this mean God never really spoke to Baalam?
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ex10
?? God spoke to Balaam through his jackass. :o
So I'm not sure I get your meaning, Lifted.
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Lifted Up
Yes, He did, but before that, in versus 9, 12, and 20 the conversation was a little more direct than that, I do believe.
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Ham
hmm.. getting advice from a jackass.
the jackass wasn't much smarter, either.
After running off the path, crushing the guys foot..
"hey.. whatcha beating ME for??"
I think the jackass would be a better choice..
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Ham
I wonder if the jackass sounded like Eddy Murphy..
"what is it with this beat the donkey thing you've got.."
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ex10
Lifted, of course it's clear that God spoke to Balaam. And?
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Lifted Up
Right, It wasn't just jackass speak, inspite of the "trouble" Balaam had in following instructions properly. and even after God had to use his jackass to get through. It didn't stop God from communicating directly with him. or, if you wish, the fact that God did so didn't mean Balaam wasnt messing up big time.
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Ham
I still think the jackass makes a better comparison for the old vicmeister.
In the unlikely event the Lord opened his mouth.. spoke to somebody's "madness" here..
when he went home at the end of the day, he was not likely to still be giving dictation. Probably brayed like he did the day before..
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ex10
Exactly, Lifted. By the way, it's so nice to see you here again.
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Lifted Up
maybe someone thought we were gonna wind up arguing over this.
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