I have Muslim friends who have either left and returned, or left altogether. They didn't face any problems, with the only potential being their parents getting upset. Still, the majority of Islam seems to be quite a bit more tolerant than TWI when it comes to a "mark and avoid" process. Additionally, this politician has spoken out very vocally against Islam, which of course has triggered some nutcases to attack him. I'd imagine a U.S. Congressman saying, "Jesus was a criminal" on TV would get quite a few death threats from radical Christian extremists too, and probably have his house bombed. Extremists are always wrong, no matter what the religion.
Still, the majority of Islam seems to be quite a bit more tolerant than TWI when it comes to a "mark and avoid" process. ....
I'd imagine a U.S. Congressman saying, "Jesus was a criminal" on TV would get quite a few death threats from radical Christian extremists too, and probably have his house bombed. ....
To judge the majority of Islam, you'd go to the middle east where I think they are less tolerant than TWI. Did TWI ever issue any death threats for cartoons depicting Jesus in a bad light? Murder and terrorism was never part of TWI ... you really want to say Islam is quite a bit more tolerant? Come on ....
We know of all the attrocities incited by faith based rage in Islam, and for printing cartoons of Mohammed's image ... are there any cases of Christians bombing anything in reaction to calling Jesus vile names? I can't think of one. Yet you say Christians would probably bomb a congressman's house?
And Pawtucket has this site which exposes twi problems, yet I don't think twi has issued a death threat, despite his direct rejection of that religion.
Some time ago, I read an article or maybe it was a film of some kind... anyway, the substance of the piece was a documentation of many individual "conversions" of Muslims to Christianity. I seem to remember the producer of the piece acknowledged that much more than he was reporting was happening, but he was limiting his report to cases where individual Muslim men and women came to personal epiphanies of Christ, spontaneously experienced, often to the chagrin and even horror of the recipients. If anyone knows what I'm talking about (I obviously don't!), then would you post it here? Is it a book or an article or a film? IIR, there were numerous interviews with former Muslims.
Some time ago, I read an article or maybe it was a film of some kind... anyway, the substance of the piece was a documentation of many individual "conversions" of Muslims to Christianity. I seem to remember the producer of the piece acknowledged that much more than he was reporting was happening, but he was limiting his report to cases where individual Muslim men and women came to personal epiphanies of Christ, spontaneously experienced, often to the chagrin and even horror of the recipients. If anyone knows what I'm talking about (I obviously don't!), then would you post it here? Is it a book or an article or a film? IIR, there were numerous interviews with former Muslims.
Dan, I know I saw a web site a while back devoted to stories of Muslim conversions, many of whom converted when Jesus appeared to them in a dream or vision. I don't have the URL offhand but I'll look and see if I can find it.
That link gave several Koran quotes of what was supposed to happen to those that left ...
14 passages in the Koran refer to apostasy — According to Baidhawi’s commentary, Sura 4: 88-89 reads: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard.”
Of course the more closed off they are when in the cult, the harder it is to get out. But there are plenty of reasons to be Christian instead of Muslim ... even from a senses point of view. It is when the dark ages aspects of Islam meet the more modern west and more "modernized" Christian views ... then things get interesting.
this politician has spoken out very vocally against Islam, which of course has triggered some nutcases to attack him.
the term nutcases may be debatable, in the sense that the word may imply they are extremeists in the islamic faith. I have heard that many "moderates", including many who oppose the suicide bombings because so many innocents are killed, openly advocate death for those who renounce Islam. Whether or not they themselves pursue it may not make a lot of difference.
I'm not sure how we can even debate this. I base much of my opinions on talking to actual Muslims, most of whom I have been friends with (and in one case a relative.) Obviously, religious extremists aren't going to hang out with an atheist most of the time, so the fact that I have friends that are Muslim should attest to something. As far as people from the middle east being more extreme, my Muslim friends have been from Pakistan, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Egypt, India, Iran, and Palestine. I've never been close with one of those Nation of Islam folks, and all the Muslims I have known are immigrants.
I do feel that it is more valid to get the information based on actually talking to Muslims than it is to base your opinions off of what you read on the news. I'm also not defending the religion as I do not support any religion. However, I don't like to see people demonized because of their religion nor do I like when people take one group and use it to try to make others look bad. You can't base all Muslims off of your knowledge of al Qaeda any more than you can base your opinions of all Christians off of Christian terrorist groups like the Army of God.
I do not believe in religions, but I do believe in people. There are good people of pretty much every faith, including Muslims and including people in TWI. I will continue to defend those people, even though I see the whole debate as fruitless when I have to discuss it with people that get everything they know from cable news and biased sites on the internet.
I'm not sure how we can even debate this. I base much of my opinions on talking to actual Muslims.... I see the whole debate as fruitless when I have to discuss it with people that get everything they know from cable news and biased sites on the internet.
What amazes me P-Mosh is your constant claim of moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity. You claimed Christians would blow up the house of a congressman if he blaphemed Jesus, yet that has never happened. You want to ignore all the faith based Islam beheadings and cruel treatment of women and calls for death of those that speak out against Islam... apparently because you don't know these people. So you must think it was all made up by cable news and biased web sites ... good grief. Only major network news is safe for you apparently.
As out there as TWI is/was, they haven't resorted to physical violence. That was really my main point ... people can leave TWI or other radical Christian groups without fear. Not so with the radical side of Islam. Leaving TWI ... piece of cake ...
Thanks Dan ... another part of the article I first mentioned gave several verses about killing those that leave Islam. It seems it IS difficult to leave in many Muslim environments.
If those who advocate and/or actively pursue death for those who renounce Islam are exrtemists, and not "mainline" Islam, it brings up an interesting point. there are quite a number of people who have publically denounced people they view as Christian extremists. It has happened on Greasespot. Whether or not they are right in their judgement is not my point. When i see islams publically denounce the death sentence for leaving Islam as not being a rwal part of their religion, then the idea that Islam is not a violent religion will gain a lot of credence. In that sense, I may actually trust what I read about, depending on thge source, more that I would a private conversation with someone I know...much less a private conversation between people I dont know as someone else relates it. If a person still of the Iislamic faith can publically renounce the idea that those leaving "the faith" must be killed, then the idea of Islam as a peaceful religion could gain some credence.
And then there's always the likes of Adam Yahiye Gadahn who aids Bin Laden in his blinders vision that if we all become Islam there would be an end to the war in Iraq and we'd all live happily ever after.
I know not all here agree to be a Christian is appealing to them but being one I can only go on personal experience, of which I am the authority of, and I don't have to worry that my leaders in the church will one day tell me I have to kill myself and as many innocents as I can to prove my loyalty to God.
In that same vein of thought I believe that the Muslims that know the extremists amongst them are committing murder rather than godly actions will in time hopefully gain the strength as a whole to squelch the sick ones in their fold and prove they stand for something of life not death.
Until that day, until at least enough of them say "enough is enough" the sick ones will continue to tarnish that faith and the 1/4th of the world now numbered among them will be looked poorly upon while some like these men and women in these articles will see the evil being taught them to perform and move towards the light.
I put it here in open just because the contrast struck me. While twi effects were large for many of us ... and for some there was more impact than others ... at least we had no real fear of physical harm when we left. The emotional harm seems terrible, but compared to parts of the Islam cult, there is really no comparison.
Maybe it is easier ot get out of parts of Islam in America than it was to leave TWI ... but thankfully nothing in the epistles supports killing people that don't show up for twig, or that don't bow to the east at the right times have fluent enough tongues.
What amazes me P-Mosh is your constant claim of moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity. You claimed Christians would blow up the house of a congressman if he blaphemed Jesus, yet that has never happened.
How many congressmen have spoken out against Jesus publicly? I was discussing hypotheticals. If you want to talk about real events, I can provide those too. How about the Christians that bomb womans health clinics or shoot abortion doctors? You might argue that they are not mainstream Christians and that I would be using examples of extremists to demonize all Christians. If that's the case, you might actually be able to get my point.
You want to ignore all the faith based Islam beheadings and cruel treatment of women and calls for death of those that speak out against Islam... apparently because you don't know these people. So you must think it was all made up by cable news and biased web sites ... good grief. Only major network news is safe for you apparently.
You're ascribing to religion the tenets of dictatorship. From what I've seen, beheadings and mysogeny are not part of mainstream islam, but rather due to political dictatorships and their strongarm tactics. Sure, they like to wrap themselves up in religion just like George W. Bush does when he bombs people, but the fact is that the problems are political in nature.
The thing is, you don't see the news reporting on the fact that Pakistan was run by a woman until the current dictator Musharraff took over in a coup. You won't see that women don't have to wear burkhas in Jordan. You don't see that historically speaking, Jews and Christians are viewed as protected minorities in Muslim-run countries.
I encourage you to read up on your history. Read about the Persian empire (watching 300 doesn't count), read up on Spain when it was under Muslim rule, and try to learn something other than your biased sources. It would be better for you to talk to actual Muslims, but you've already showed your hatred for those you don't know so I doubt that would happen.
As out there as TWI is/was, they haven't resorted to physical violence. That was really my main point ... people can leave TWI or other radical Christian groups without fear. Not so with the radical side of Islam. Leaving TWI ... piece of cake ...
Thanks Dan ... another part of the article I first mentioned gave several verses about killing those that leave Islam. It seems it IS difficult to leave in many Muslim environments.
Note that in your message to Dan you said "many" rather than all or a majority. I guess we are making some progress then.
As far as the physical violence is concerned, TWI is not the worst of the worst. One of my goals in constantly arguing about this is to get people to see that there is no monolithic "Islam" any more than there is a monolithic Christianity. The problem is that what you and others here are doing is combining moderate Muslims in with the equivalent of the Christian snake handlers. Most people do this out of either ignorance or bigotry, and I'm assuming the former around here. I've always been one to speak up for the underdog, especially when they are being misrepresented. Again, as you glossed over in my last post, I have friends and one relative that are Muslims, and they don't believe in any of the nonsense you attribute to them. They are some of the most tolerant people I know when it comes to other religions including Judaism. This doesn't jive with what you post or what I see on the news. I think it's dishonest to represent all Muslims based upon the extremists.
If those who advocate and/or actively pursue death for those who renounce Islam are exrtemists, and not "mainline" Islam, it brings up an interesting point. there are quite a number of people who have publically denounced people they view as Christian extremists. It has happened on Greasespot. Whether or not they are right in their judgement is not my point. When i see islams publically denounce the death sentence for leaving Islam as not being a rwal part of their religion, then the idea that Islam is not a violent religion will gain a lot of credence. In that sense, I may actually trust what I read about, depending on thge source, more that I would a private conversation with someone I know...much less a private conversation between people I dont know as someone else relates it. If a person still of the Iislamic faith can publically renounce the idea that those leaving "the faith" must be killed, then the idea of Islam as a peaceful religion could gain some credence.
A problem with this is that most Muslim leaders have denounced murder altogether, but they don't make the news because they aren't killing people. The ten commandments apply to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Thou Shalt Not Kill. It's pretty basic, and all three religions supposedly believe it, despite the fact that all three holy books of those religions are full of killing and in some cases murder. What I think would be a more interesting conversation though would be what happened to make some Muslims ok with killing? What changed from the days of the caliphates where Jews and Christians were seen as equals? Where did the different sects such as Sunni and Shia come from and what is different about them? I think if we answered some of these questions here, a more accurate view of what is really going on would emerge.
Also, I find it odd that you would believe the media more than you would someone you know. I know you trust the media more than reading what I've written about my own conversations, but I tend to prefer to make my decisions based upon people with the facts over people just out to make some money or whip up fear like the media.
Something interesting about this topic is that despite my Muslim friends, some of whom have quit or who have simply "lapsed", I never heard about the concept of killing someone who left. They seemed to drop it pretty easily, and I've only met one or two Muslims who had to pray towards Mecca on a regular basis. Maybe you don't hear many Muslims denouncing the killing of people who leave because it isn't a common problem?
How about the Christians that bomb womans health clinics or shoot abortion doctors? You might argue that they are not mainstream Christians and that I would be using examples of extremists to demonize all Christians. If that's the case, you might actually be able to get my point.
There was nothing difficult about your point ... it is basic moral equivalence. Because 0.01% of Christians support bombing abortion clinics, you equate that with the 10-20% of Muslims that polls have shown support terrorism. It is not surprising you know more peaceful Muslims ... I never sid ALL ... most are peaceful ... but percentage wise a lot more are supportive of terrorism. I don't expect you to get my point ... because you are on a mission ...
"One of
my goals in constantly arguing
about this is to get people to see that there is no monolithic "Islam" any more than there is a monolithic Christianity."
and ...
The problem is that what you and others here are doing is combining moderate Muslims in with the equivalent of the Christian snake handlers. Most people do this out of either ignorance or bigotry, and I'm assuming the former around here.
That is not the problem ... everyone here "gets" that probably 80% are just good folks, at least in the US ... of the other 20%, most would appear to be good folks till you hear of what the imams are saying in "church".
... the problems are political in nature.
...try to learn something other than your biased sources. It would be better for you to talk to actual Muslims, but you've already showed your hatred for those you don't know so I doubt that would happen.
sigh ... Imams and Islam are the big part of the politics ... recognizing that is not hatred. You have to cherry pick your history to not see Mohammed used the sword, and that Islam has a bloody history. Some were treated OK after they were subdued and under sharia law.
Again, as you glossed over in my last post, I have friends and one relative that are Muslims, and they don't believe in any of the nonsense you attribute to them. They are some of the most tolerant people I know when it comes to other religions including Judaism. This doesn't jive with what you post or what I see on the news. I think it's dishonest to represent all Muslims based upon the extremists.
Picking some relatively positive points about Islam and claiming that proves there is no huge negative is just goofy. The news doesn't cover positives much, whether it is Iraq or Islam. It is dishonest moral equivalence to claim the 15% of Muslims that support terrorism equals 0.01% of Christians that support bombing abortion clinics.
Leaving a Christian group is much safer than leaving Islam ... your anecdotal evidence and ad hominem attacks not withstanding.
It looks like the Pope felt the need to speak out about Muslims rights to convert to Christianity ...
The Pope has again risked provoking the wrath of the Islamic world, by criticising its treatment of Christians.
Benedict XVI attacked Muslim nations where Christians are either persecuted or given the status of second-class citizens under the Shariah Islamic law.
He also defended the rights of Muslims to convert to Christianity, an act which warrants the death penalty in many Islamic countries
.
His comments came almost exactly a year after he provoked a wave of anger among Muslims by quoting a Byzantine emperor who linked Islam to violence.
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Mister P-Mosh
I have Muslim friends who have either left and returned, or left altogether. They didn't face any problems, with the only potential being their parents getting upset. Still, the majority of Islam seems to be quite a bit more tolerant than TWI when it comes to a "mark and avoid" process. Additionally, this politician has spoken out very vocally against Islam, which of course has triggered some nutcases to attack him. I'd imagine a U.S. Congressman saying, "Jesus was a criminal" on TV would get quite a few death threats from radical Christian extremists too, and probably have his house bombed. Extremists are always wrong, no matter what the religion.
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rhino
To judge the majority of Islam, you'd go to the middle east where I think they are less tolerant than TWI. Did TWI ever issue any death threats for cartoons depicting Jesus in a bad light? Murder and terrorism was never part of TWI ... you really want to say Islam is quite a bit more tolerant? Come on ....
We know of all the attrocities incited by faith based rage in Islam, and for printing cartoons of Mohammed's image ... are there any cases of Christians bombing anything in reaction to calling Jesus vile names? I can't think of one. Yet you say Christians would probably bomb a congressman's house?
And Pawtucket has this site which exposes twi problems, yet I don't think twi has issued a death threat, despite his direct rejection of that religion.
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anotherDan
Some time ago, I read an article or maybe it was a film of some kind... anyway, the substance of the piece was a documentation of many individual "conversions" of Muslims to Christianity. I seem to remember the producer of the piece acknowledged that much more than he was reporting was happening, but he was limiting his report to cases where individual Muslim men and women came to personal epiphanies of Christ, spontaneously experienced, often to the chagrin and even horror of the recipients. If anyone knows what I'm talking about (I obviously don't!), then would you post it here? Is it a book or an article or a film? IIR, there were numerous interviews with former Muslims.
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wrdsandwrks
Dan, I know I saw a web site a while back devoted to stories of Muslim conversions, many of whom converted when Jesus appeared to them in a dream or vision. I don't have the URL offhand but I'll look and see if I can find it.
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rhino
That link gave several Koran quotes of what was supposed to happen to those that left ...
Of course the more closed off they are when in the cult, the harder it is to get out. But there are plenty of reasons to be Christian instead of Muslim ... even from a senses point of view. It is when the dark ages aspects of Islam meet the more modern west and more "modernized" Christian views ... then things get interesting.
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Lifted Up
the term nutcases may be debatable, in the sense that the word may imply they are extremeists in the islamic faith. I have heard that many "moderates", including many who oppose the suicide bombings because so many innocents are killed, openly advocate death for those who renounce Islam. Whether or not they themselves pursue it may not make a lot of difference.
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Mister P-Mosh
I'm not sure how we can even debate this. I base much of my opinions on talking to actual Muslims, most of whom I have been friends with (and in one case a relative.) Obviously, religious extremists aren't going to hang out with an atheist most of the time, so the fact that I have friends that are Muslim should attest to something. As far as people from the middle east being more extreme, my Muslim friends have been from Pakistan, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Egypt, India, Iran, and Palestine. I've never been close with one of those Nation of Islam folks, and all the Muslims I have known are immigrants.
I do feel that it is more valid to get the information based on actually talking to Muslims than it is to base your opinions off of what you read on the news. I'm also not defending the religion as I do not support any religion. However, I don't like to see people demonized because of their religion nor do I like when people take one group and use it to try to make others look bad. You can't base all Muslims off of your knowledge of al Qaeda any more than you can base your opinions of all Christians off of Christian terrorist groups like the Army of God.
I do not believe in religions, but I do believe in people. There are good people of pretty much every faith, including Muslims and including people in TWI. I will continue to defend those people, even though I see the whole debate as fruitless when I have to discuss it with people that get everything they know from cable news and biased sites on the internet.
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anotherDan
One testimony:
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/abdul.html
and here's a Christian Today article (not Christianity Today)
visions of Jesus:
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rhino
What amazes me P-Mosh is your constant claim of moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity. You claimed Christians would blow up the house of a congressman if he blaphemed Jesus, yet that has never happened. You want to ignore all the faith based Islam beheadings and cruel treatment of women and calls for death of those that speak out against Islam... apparently because you don't know these people. So you must think it was all made up by cable news and biased web sites ... good grief. Only major network news is safe for you apparently.
As out there as TWI is/was, they haven't resorted to physical violence. That was really my main point ... people can leave TWI or other radical Christian groups without fear. Not so with the radical side of Islam. Leaving TWI ... piece of cake ...
Thanks Dan ... another part of the article I first mentioned gave several verses about killing those that leave Islam. It seems it IS difficult to leave in many Muslim environments.
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Lifted Up
If those who advocate and/or actively pursue death for those who renounce Islam are exrtemists, and not "mainline" Islam, it brings up an interesting point. there are quite a number of people who have publically denounced people they view as Christian extremists. It has happened on Greasespot. Whether or not they are right in their judgement is not my point. When i see islams publically denounce the death sentence for leaving Islam as not being a rwal part of their religion, then the idea that Islam is not a violent religion will gain a lot of credence. In that sense, I may actually trust what I read about, depending on thge source, more that I would a private conversation with someone I know...much less a private conversation between people I dont know as someone else relates it. If a person still of the Iislamic faith can publically renounce the idea that those leaving "the faith" must be killed, then the idea of Islam as a peaceful religion could gain some credence.
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ChattyKathy
And then there's always the likes of Adam Yahiye Gadahn who aids Bin Laden in his blinders vision that if we all become Islam there would be an end to the war in Iraq and we'd all live happily ever after.
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wrdsandwrks
Here's another one:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/69001.aspx
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ChattyKathy
I know not all here agree to be a Christian is appealing to them but being one I can only go on personal experience, of which I am the authority of, and I don't have to worry that my leaders in the church will one day tell me I have to kill myself and as many innocents as I can to prove my loyalty to God.
In that same vein of thought I believe that the Muslims that know the extremists amongst them are committing murder rather than godly actions will in time hopefully gain the strength as a whole to squelch the sick ones in their fold and prove they stand for something of life not death.
Until that day, until at least enough of them say "enough is enough" the sick ones will continue to tarnish that faith and the 1/4th of the world now numbered among them will be looked poorly upon while some like these men and women in these articles will see the evil being taught them to perform and move towards the light.
I can pray for it anyway.
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TOMMYZ
This wasn't too long ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/21/...tian/index.html
The gov't wimped out by declaring him "mentally unfit" and ducking the issue.
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ChattyKathy
But they are such a peaceful religion you know. It is us Westerners, especially the Christians, that have caused all their problems.
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dmiller
I would add some comments here -- but it would relegate this thread to the politcal forum.
<_< :blink: <_<
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TOMMYZ
Didn't we have a political thread on this subject right after 9/11 or shortly thereafter ? I seem to remember posting in that one.
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ChattyKathy
I'm amazed this has stayed here as long as it has actually. But Muslim leaders have made Islam=politics.
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rhino
Right Cathy, sadly
I put it here in open just because the contrast struck me. While twi effects were large for many of us ... and for some there was more impact than others ... at least we had no real fear of physical harm when we left. The emotional harm seems terrible, but compared to parts of the Islam cult, there is really no comparison.
Maybe it is easier ot get out of parts of Islam in America than it was to leave TWI ... but thankfully nothing in the epistles supports killing people that don't show up for twig, or that don't bow to the east at the right times have fluent enough tongues.
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Mister P-Mosh
How many congressmen have spoken out against Jesus publicly? I was discussing hypotheticals. If you want to talk about real events, I can provide those too. How about the Christians that bomb womans health clinics or shoot abortion doctors? You might argue that they are not mainstream Christians and that I would be using examples of extremists to demonize all Christians. If that's the case, you might actually be able to get my point.
You're ascribing to religion the tenets of dictatorship. From what I've seen, beheadings and mysogeny are not part of mainstream islam, but rather due to political dictatorships and their strongarm tactics. Sure, they like to wrap themselves up in religion just like George W. Bush does when he bombs people, but the fact is that the problems are political in nature.
The thing is, you don't see the news reporting on the fact that Pakistan was run by a woman until the current dictator Musharraff took over in a coup. You won't see that women don't have to wear burkhas in Jordan. You don't see that historically speaking, Jews and Christians are viewed as protected minorities in Muslim-run countries.
I encourage you to read up on your history. Read about the Persian empire (watching 300 doesn't count), read up on Spain when it was under Muslim rule, and try to learn something other than your biased sources. It would be better for you to talk to actual Muslims, but you've already showed your hatred for those you don't know so I doubt that would happen.
Note that in your message to Dan you said "many" rather than all or a majority. I guess we are making some progress then.
As far as the physical violence is concerned, TWI is not the worst of the worst. One of my goals in constantly arguing about this is to get people to see that there is no monolithic "Islam" any more than there is a monolithic Christianity. The problem is that what you and others here are doing is combining moderate Muslims in with the equivalent of the Christian snake handlers. Most people do this out of either ignorance or bigotry, and I'm assuming the former around here. I've always been one to speak up for the underdog, especially when they are being misrepresented. Again, as you glossed over in my last post, I have friends and one relative that are Muslims, and they don't believe in any of the nonsense you attribute to them. They are some of the most tolerant people I know when it comes to other religions including Judaism. This doesn't jive with what you post or what I see on the news. I think it's dishonest to represent all Muslims based upon the extremists.
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Mister P-Mosh
A problem with this is that most Muslim leaders have denounced murder altogether, but they don't make the news because they aren't killing people. The ten commandments apply to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Thou Shalt Not Kill. It's pretty basic, and all three religions supposedly believe it, despite the fact that all three holy books of those religions are full of killing and in some cases murder. What I think would be a more interesting conversation though would be what happened to make some Muslims ok with killing? What changed from the days of the caliphates where Jews and Christians were seen as equals? Where did the different sects such as Sunni and Shia come from and what is different about them? I think if we answered some of these questions here, a more accurate view of what is really going on would emerge.
Also, I find it odd that you would believe the media more than you would someone you know. I know you trust the media more than reading what I've written about my own conversations, but I tend to prefer to make my decisions based upon people with the facts over people just out to make some money or whip up fear like the media.
Something interesting about this topic is that despite my Muslim friends, some of whom have quit or who have simply "lapsed", I never heard about the concept of killing someone who left. They seemed to drop it pretty easily, and I've only met one or two Muslims who had to pray towards Mecca on a regular basis. Maybe you don't hear many Muslims denouncing the killing of people who leave because it isn't a common problem?
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rhino
There was nothing difficult about your point ... it is basic moral equivalence. Because 0.01% of Christians support bombing abortion clinics, you equate that with the 10-20% of Muslims that polls have shown support terrorism. It is not surprising you know more peaceful Muslims ... I never sid ALL ... most are peaceful ... but percentage wise a lot more are supportive of terrorism. I don't expect you to get my point ... because you are on a mission ...
and ...
That is not the problem ... everyone here "gets" that probably 80% are just good folks, at least in the US ... of the other 20%, most would appear to be good folks till you hear of what the imams are saying in "church".
sigh ... Imams and Islam are the big part of the politics ... recognizing that is not hatred. You have to cherry pick your history to not see Mohammed used the sword, and that Islam has a bloody history. Some were treated OK after they were subdued and under sharia law.Picking some relatively positive points about Islam and claiming that proves there is no huge negative is just goofy. The news doesn't cover positives much, whether it is Iraq or Islam. It is dishonest moral equivalence to claim the 15% of Muslims that support terrorism equals 0.01% of Christians that support bombing abortion clinics.
Leaving a Christian group is much safer than leaving Islam ... your anecdotal evidence and ad hominem attacks not withstanding.
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ChattyKathy
Bill,
Breaking my rule of posting while at lunch.... :)
I think you are doing a fine job so I won't bother to get into the mix at this point.
Thanks,
Kathy
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rhino
It looks like the Pope felt the need to speak out about Muslims rights to convert to Christianity ...
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