did you ever hear wierwille speaking in tongues and/or interpret ?

[rhino]

"Olde English" is a malt liquor that is sold in 40 ounce bottles.

Errrr----That's what the guys at work told me.

these helped at excellors sessions

[Ham]

That explains a few things.. they must have been victims of improper spelling. It's supposed to be Olde English, not Old English.

Because of the mix up, they must have guzzled down a couple of these at the excellor's sessions instead.. it'd explain perfectly why they would only be able to spit out only three or four words over and over again..

[waysider]

Maybe it was supposed to help you "polish" your delivery?

:unsure:

[johniam]

Jeez I got to spell everything out for you guys. My point was that if Paul can give 5 senses instructions for the Corinthian believers, like no more than 3, one at a time, etc. then VP can give 5 senses instructions about practicing, phonetics, etc. It doesn't matter that the believers in Corinth already knew how to SIT, what matters is that manifestations in the church are decent and in order and VPs excellor sessions did not violate that. Simple.

[doojable]

Jeez I got to spell everything out for you guys. My point was that if Paul can give 5 senses instructions for the Corinthian believers, like no more than 3, one at a time, etc. then VP can give 5 senses instructions about practicing, phonetics, etc. It doesn't matter that the believers in Corinth already knew how to SIT, what matters is that manifestations in the church are decent and in order and VPs excellor sessions did not violate that. Simple.

No John, I'm sorry but your logic is flawed.

Paul was correcting a practical error (at least according to VP) He was telling them NOT to have a meeting that was confusing and was more about pride than God.

We stopped calling them "Practice sessions" in favor of "excellor sessions" the emphasis was on the one excelling - hence it was about pride.

When we did "Practice" interpretation and prophecy - it was always more than two or three at a time.

Find me a scriptural reference that makes that Okay...

Edited September 13, 2007 by doojable

[rhino]

Johnny's logic is fine, you just have to start with the premise that VP was on par with Paul, so he could issue his own revelation. As MOGFOT, previous scripture is understood in light of VP's more current gospel.

[doojable]

It doesn't matter that the believers in Corinth already knew how to SIT, what matters is that manifestations in the church are decent and in order and VPs excellor sessions did not violate that. Simple.

Of course it violated that. That's why when I ran an Intermediate class I had to do some song and dance about how God was okay with us all speaking in tongues at the same time.

And why it was okay to have more than two or three people manifest. The first intermediate class I took was split up into groups with ten to a group - try gettting "two or at the most by three" with ten people - and have them repeat it more than once so they can "practice."

Then along came the arrogance of timing it all..

John, if you can't come up with scripture, then all you got is rhetoric - and that can be found on every street corner be it in a church or in a bar. <_<

Except sometimes what you hear in a bar is more honest...

[Belle]

Teaching someone the proper order for manifestations they already know how to do is quite different than teaching someone HOW to speak in tongues or how to do it more "fluently". Your logic is seriously flawed and you still haven't provided the first scripture of the folks in the bible having excellor sessions or being taught like TWI teaches on how to speak in tongues.

Try again if you still insist that you're correct.

[Larry N Moore]

John, if you can't come up with scripture, then all you got is rhetoric - and that can be found on every street corner be it in a church or in a bar. <_<

"Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"

I don't see anything in the above scripture that prohibits you from speaking in tongues in an excelling session. In fact imo it implies Paul could have ". . . come unto you speaking in tongues . . . ." The point isn't that one couldn't speak in tongues among other believers but rather what is the profit. Some people -- myself for one -- profited from excelling sessions. All of this talk about excelling sessions being wrong seems to be a product of legalism (and I don't recall anyone being forced to participate -- in fact I remember one incident where someone chose not to and they didn't). If the Bible doesn't say you can't do it then how can you say it's wrong?

[Belle]

"Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"

I don't see anything in the above scripture that prohibits you from speaking in tongues in an excelling session. In fact imo it implies Paul could have ". . . come unto you speaking in tongues . . . ." The point isn't that one couldn't speak in tongues among other believers but rather what is the profit. Some people -- myself for one -- profited from excelling sessions. All of this talk about excelling sessions being wrong seems to be a product of legalism (and I don't recall anyone being forced to participate -- in fact I remember one incident where someone chose not to and they didn't). If the Bible doesn't say you can't do it then how can you say it's wrong?

Private interpretation is what it looks like to me. *shrug* Based on TWI's "keys to research" anyway.

The legalism, imo, is from TWI's end, not those saying that the bible doesn't teach it. And, you must have been in a very, very, very different TWI than I was. Not speaking in tongues was NOT allowed - I've seen people kicked out of TWI for not speaking in tongues and people put on probation for not doing it "well enough". I've even been told to "work with" people they thought needed to do it better - guess they forgot vee pee's "gutteral" explanation and that it's the spirit that gives the utterance....

Again, what they said and what the did were two totally different things usually. <_<

[Larry N Moore]

Private interpretation is what it looks like to me. *shrug* Based on TWI's "keys to research" anyway.

You think so? I disagree.

The legalism, imo, is from TWI's end, not those saying that the bible doesn't teach it.

If someone says that having excelling sessions is wrong I think it's incumbent upon that person to cite the scripture that prohibits it. Otherwise you're instituting a "law" that doesn't exist. And only those who have a legalistic mind will do that. Now I can cite you a verse that supports my pov but I'm sure that too will be viewed as me privately interpreting the scriptures. So why waste time?

And, you must have been in a very, very, very different TWI than I was.

Perhaps.

Not speaking in tongues was NOT allowed - I've seen people kicked out of TWI for not speaking in tongues and people put on probation for not doing it "well enough".

I suppose they didn't understand the significance of the record of the man that was ostracized after Jesus healed him of his blindness. For that matter I suppose they didn't understand a lot of what the scriptures have to say on love.

I've even been told to "work with" people they thought needed to do it better - guess they forgot vee pee's "gutteral" explanation and that it's the spirit that gives the utterance....

I've seen people who appeared to be struggling with the manifestations -- some would freeze up and not finish what they started. I'd say such people needed to be "work[ed] with" but that doesn't necessarily mean you had to have an excelling session. Maybe if people spent more time asking God, instead of leaders, what they should do more people would have been helped to overcome their fear or doubts.

Again, what they said and what the did were two totally different things usually. <_<

Yep.

[waysider]

snip

If someone says that having excelling sessions is wrong I think it's incumbent upon that person to cite the scripture that prohibits it. Otherwise you're instituting a "law" that doesn't exist. And only those who have a legalistic mind will do that. Now I can cite you a verse that supports my pov but I'm sure that too will be viewed as me privately interpreting the scriptures. So why waste time?

snip

I Cor. 14:27.

And the scripture that supports your POV?

[Larry N Moore]

I Cor. 14:27.

And the scripture that supports your POV?

1 Cor. 14:28 I don't consider an excelling session a meeting of the Church. If you were teaching the Word would you want a whole bunch of people speaking in tongues while you were teaching? Or a whole bunch of people prophesying; speaking in tongues; ministering healing etc., etc., etc.

Context. It's speaking about a fellowship of believers coming together to worship.

[Larry N Moore]

Actually waysider I suppose a better verse I could have mentioned would be verse 34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Now think about it. By your logic wouldn't the above mean that whenever believers get together women are supposed to keep their mouths shut? No. It's speaking of women in the assembly speaking up when their husbands (the prophets) are speaking. If you're in a casual setting -- say having dinner -- are women suppose to keep their mouths shut even then?

[waysider]

Pardon me.

I did not realize the subtopic at hand had changed from scriptural support of excellor sessions to women keeping silence in the church

[Larry N Moore]

Pardon me.

I did not realize the subtopic at hand had changed from scriptural support of excellor sessions to women keeping silence in the church

I know you didn't. You want to sue me? :)

[doojable]

. All of this talk about excelling sessions being wrong seems to be a product of legalism (and I don't recall anyone being forced to participate -- in fact I remember one incident where someone chose not to and they didn't). If the Bible doesn't say you can't do it then how can you say it's wrong?

Oh? Then you must never have been an Intermediate Class where the tongues were timed with a stop watch, and then the interpretation was also timed. And God help the person that was more than a few seconds off on either side.

Legalism my foot...

I can see a balance... but to go on and on and on about how you had to obey Scripture and then say, "Well God understands and accepts..."

WTF? :blink:

It was a double standard at best - and it was used to beat believers over the head and tell them how unspiritual they were.

You saw and instance where someone was allowed to not participate...GREAT! That was the exception and not the rule.

How do I know? I know what we were taught in the Corps and told to do on the field...

[Larry N Moore]

Oh? Then you must never have been an Intermediate Class where the tongues were timed with a stop watch, and then the interpretation was also timed. And God help the person that was more than a few seconds off on either side.

Legalism my foot...

I can see a balance... but to go on and on and on about how you had to obey Scripture and then say, "Well God understands and accepts..."

WTF? :blink:

It was a double standard at best - and it was used to beat believers over the head and tell them how unspiritual they were.

You saw and instance where someone was allowed to not participate...GREAT! That was the exception and not the rule.

How do I know? I know what we were taught in the Corps and told to do on the field...

Dooj, I can't rebut your experiences. It would be stupid of me to even try. I'm just sharing my experiences. You aren't required to believe them. But the question is: If excelling sessions were prohibited by the scriptures then doesn't it also say women were to keep quiet? Iow -- There is a time and place for everything. When the assembly is gathered together to worship God -- (which includes -- singing, manifestations etc., etc., etc.) everything was to be done decently and in order. That's what I see being taught in 1 Corinthians 14. If not, then you have to take verse 34 and conclude that women are NEVER allowed to speak whenever they're in the presence of other believers.

[waysider]

Dooj, I can't rebut your experiences. It would be stupid of me to even try. I'm just sharing my experiences. You aren't required to believe them. But the question is: If excelling sessions were prohibited by the scriptures then doesn't it also say women were to keep quiet? Iow -- There is a time and place for everything. When the assembly is gathered together to worship God -- (which includes -- singing, manifestations etc., etc., etc.) everything was to be done decently and in order. That's what I see being taught in 1 Corinthians 14. If not, then you have to take verse 34 and conclude that women are NEVER allowed to speak whenever they're in the presence of other believers.

Again with the "women keep silent" thing.

What's up with that?

Can we get back to excellor sessions?

That was the topic being currently discussed.

Maybe you can at least show how the "silent" thing is relevant to the validity of excellor sessions.

Better yet, maybe we can hear from some more folks who heard VPW SIT, since that was the subject that started this thread.

If what he taught us about being zealous to excel in spiritual matters is something he practiced himself, there ought to be page after page of eyewitness accounts.

ps---Jesus Wept.( Now that really IS relevant!)

[Larry N Moore]

Again with the "women keep silent" thing.

What's up with that?

Can we get back to excellor sessions?

That was the topic being currently discussed.

Maybe you can at least show how the "silent" thing is relevant to the validity of excellor sessions.

Better yet, maybe we can hear from some more folks who heard VPW SIT, since that was the subject that started this thread.

If what he taught us about being zealous to excel in spiritual matters is something he practiced himself, there ought to be page after page of eyewitness accounts.

ps---Jesus Wept.( Now that really IS relevant!)

waysider -- the issue is: Are excelling sessions wrong according to the scriptures? I don't see how my take on it is really off topic. If excelling sessions are wrong then so too is it wrong for women to speak on any occasion. Context. The Bible doesn't say it's wrong to have excelling sessions. Were they handled wrongly? Perhaps.

And yes, this thread did start out by talking about whether VPW SIT but, I wasn't the one who brought up excelling sessions. I'm the one who decided at that point to join the discussion. So please -- let's stop this foolishness of trying to direct the traffic. I'm just going with the flow.

[waysider]

The Word doesn't say it's wrong to eat tuna salad sandwiches on Tuesday nights, either, but I fail to see the relevance.

Right or wrong, Excellor sessions are not to be found in The Word.

If they are, someone please point me in the direction of that scripture.

Wierwille himself was fond of saying that if something is not mentioned in the scriptures, it's probably not important.

Yeah, I know, now someone chimes in and says something like. "Oh, Golly!, What SNS tape is that reference from?"

And so I pose the question again, Where in the scriptures do we find mention of these "excellor sessions" and the need to develop our fluency?

After we have done that, maybe we could look at some more first hand accounts of VPW speaking in tongues and interpreting.

If you think my asking that the thread stay on topic is "directing traffic" , toss me a whistle and a tin star.

Edited September 14, 2007 by waysider

[Larry N Moore]

The Word doesn't say it's wrong to eat tuna salad sandwiches on Tuesday nights, either, but I fail to see the relevance.

Right or wrong, Excellor sessions are not to be found in The Word.

If they are, someone please point me in the direction of that scripture.

Wierwille himself was fond of saying that if something is not mentioned in the scriptures, it's probably not important.

Yeah, I know, now someone chimes in and says something like. "Oh, Golly!, What SNS tape is that reference from?"

And so I pose the question again, Where in the scriptures do we find mention of these "excellor sessions" and the need to develop our fluency?

After we have done that maybe we could look at some more first hand accounts of VPW speaking in tongues and interpreting.

If you think my asking that the thread stay on topic is "directing traffic" , toss me a whistle and a tin star.

*sigh* Very well waysider -- have it your way (no pun intended).

[johniam]

Of course it violated that. That's why when I ran an Intermediate class I had to do some song and dance about how God was okay with us all speaking in tongues at the same time.

And why it was okay to have more than two or three people manifest. The first intermediate class I took was split up into groups with ten to a group - try gettting "two or at the most by three" with ten people - and have them repeat it more than once so they can "practice."

Then along came the arrogance of timing it all..

John, if you can't come up with scripture, then all you got is rhetoric - and that can be found on every street corner be it in a church or in a bar. <_<

Except sometimes what you hear in a bar is more honest...

How ridiculous your logic is: read Acts 2. The 12 all spoke in tongues at the same time. Hello. Just because Paul told those Corinthian believers to do it by two, at most by three doesn't make it law. Those believers were practicing error and Paul gave them guidelines to get into better habits. It doesn't say that all believers everywhere for all time could not have more than three people SIT with interpretation. What? A black cloud is going to come into the room as soon as the fourth tongue with interpretation is heard? I think not.

Can you come up with scripture that allows you to drive a car? I don't need scripture if simple horse sense can be used. Larry's right, it's legalism to insist that something is wrong when scripture doesn't.

[Larry N Moore]

Larry's right, it's legalism to insist that something is wrong when scripture doesn't.

Thank you, johniam. I'm pleased that I'm not the only one who sees that.

Now -- be prepared for the gnashing of the teeth. :)

Oh and btw -- I had forgotten about that passage in Acts. Good one.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Larry N Moore]

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.