May I point out the fact that not all victims of The Holocaust were Jewish?
Furthermore, what of the many Americans, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who fought and died to liberate concentration camp inmates?(Jewish and non-Jewish)
The scope of The Holocaust is far wider than museums and public recognitions.
Wierwille placed a great deal of focus on his contention that the Jews, as a people and a nation, are somehow fraudulent and that we, the "born-again believers", have taken their place in God's grand scheme of time.
It appears to me that there are really two distinct issues being intertwined with each other.
1. Was The Holocaust real?
a. Were the victim estimates inflated?
This question is historical in nature.
2. Did Wierwille teach that we(the "born-again believers" )are the "true" chosen people of God?
This question is , by shear virtue of the definition of the word "anti", an issue of anti-Semitism.
I would have to conclude that his teaching on this subject was anti-Semitic.
Wierwille placed a great deal of focus on his contention that the Jews, as a people and a nation, are somehow fraudulent and that we, the "born-again believers", have taken their place in God's grand scheme of time.
....
I would have to conclude that his teaching on this subject was anti-Semitic.
VPW's position did not have anything to do with whether or not the Jews as a people or nation were fraudulent. Rather his position was that the the word "Jew" is a relatively modern term that is applied to those who practice or claim a religion called for by the Old Testament and the Talmud. (The Talmud is a collection of rabbinical law and tradition which was put in its present written form two or three centuries after Christ.)
Because of this, it has been wrongly assumed that most modern Jews are direct lineal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. VPW's position was that scholars (i.e. Arthur Koestler as well as others) have thoroughly documented that the majority of modern Jews are not lineal descendants of Shem, Abraham or Jacob, but rather they are predominantly descendants of an Asiatic tribe known as the Khazars - Gentiles who traced their lineage to Japheth. The Khazars as a whole nation converted to a form of the Judean religion practiced in the seventh or eight century A.D. Apparently VPW got that understanding from reading Koestler - The Thirteenth Tribe. The sources for further study included in JCOPS also reference D.M. Dunlop, Encyclopedia Judaica, M. Fishberg, The Jews: A Study of Race and Environment, Herman Rosenthal, Jewish Encylopedia, Hugo Freugerr von Kutschera, Die Chasaren, and M. Mieses, Die Entstehungsuhrsache der judischen Dialekte as other sources for study in regard to the Khazar empire, as well as Arthur Koestler, The Thirteenth Tribe.
Some historians have considered the Khazar empire the most powerful empire of its day, even stronger than the empires of Rome and Islam. As the Khazar empire declined many Khazars migrated into eastern Europe to form the cradle of modern day Jewry. As Koestler points out in The Thirteenth Tribe, the Khazars were the Third World of their day, and they chose a surprising method of resisting both Western pressure to become Christian and Eastern to adopt Islam. Rejecting both, they converted to Judaisn. I believe there has been previous debate if the evidence really proves whether or not the Khazar heritage dominates the genetic make-up of most modern day Jews as stated by Koestler. It would be interesting to note whether or not if the other sources (those I have listed above as sources for further study) corroborate what Koestler reported or not, rather than the "hearsay" of whatever comes down the Internet pipeline.
European languages called the Khazar descendants by terms which gradually developed into the word "Jew." For example, Shakespeare used the spelling Iewe in his original writings. Assuming the Khazar Jews to be descendants of the Biblical tribes and, therefore, assuming the word "Jew" bo be the proper term for the Judeans of the Bible, translators put the word "Jew" and its related words into the English Bible. It was first included in and English Bible and its present form of "Jew" in the eighteenth century. (Excerpts taken from: Appendix 3, Jew and Judean - Jesus Christ our Passover, by: Victor P. Wierwille)
If VPW shared the exact same views as Mr. Koestler, then your conclusion about VPW's teaching being anti-Semitic would be erroneous. The term anti-Semitism, as Mr. Koestler wrote, is void of meaning as it is based "on a misapprehension shared by both the killers an their victims, as the story of the Khazar Empire unfolds is perhaps the most cruel hoax history has ever perpetrated." VPW's teaching was that we, the born again believers make up the body of Christ and that there is no difference today between the Jew and the Gentile - spiritually speaking. VPW wasn't making that up. He was merely quoting scripture, specifically Romans 10:11,12 as well as other scriptural references in the New Testament regarding both Jews and Gentiles.
For the last time, please stop confusing sites like Stormfront and White Power with genuine biblical research resources, ok? I mean, you ought to get some sort of clue that you're dealing with some mentally unstable people when they actually think that Hitler was 'just misunderstood'.
For crying out loud dude. Do you actually think that the Jewish people are behind the pernicious plots to run Hollywood, the world banks, and turn the world to Marxism as these supposed sources of yours seem to indicate? ... Doesn't that sound to you like these sources are seriously overdue for their meds? :ph34r:
I won't attempt to answer every comment you made, (it's too late in the evening for that now) but here is link to a list of just a few of the Holocaust memorials and museums:
VPW's position did not have anything to do with whether or not the Jews as a people or nation were fraudulent.
Incorrect.
He stated that those who were called Jews nowadays were not the descendants of the Jews
mentioned in the Old Testament, selected out by God. That's why the term "Judean" was
used in twi-to avoid saying either "Jew" or "so-called Jew", either of which was an unacceptable
situation, albeit for different reasons.
Because of this, it has been wrongly assumed that most modern Jews are direct lineal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. VPW's position was that scholars (i.e. Arthur Koestler as well as others) have thoroughly documented that the majority of modern Jews are not lineal descendants of Shem, Abraham or Jacob, but rather they are predominantly descendants of an Asiatic tribe known as the Khazars - Gentiles who traced their lineage to Japheth. The Khazars as a whole nation converted to a form of the Judean religion practiced in the seventh or eight century A.D. Apparently VPW got that understanding from reading Koestler - The Thirteenth Tribe.
As has already been pointed out here before-
and you seem determined to remain in abject denial of-
Koestler's claims were DISPROVEN.
As quoted on the wikipedia entry on his book, "the Thirteenth Tribe",
"Recent genetic research studies have contradicted the main thesis of The Thirteenth Tribe. For example, a 2000 study of haplotypes by Hammer et al indicates that the Y chromosomes of most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are of Middle Eastern origin, containing mutations that are also common among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern peoples, yet are uncommon in the general European population. These results strongly suggest that most male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews can be traced primarily to the Middle East.
A second study (2006) by Behar et al, based on haplotype analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), also indicates that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women. These four "founder lineages" were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE."
In plain English,
modern Jews not claiming mixed heritage are descended PRIMARILY from the Jews of the Old Testament,
the 12 tribes of Israel.
Modern Jews are NOT descended PRIMARILY from the Khazars. There's genetic evidence of their
12 tribes heritage, but no genetic evidence of a Khazar heritage. That was wild speculation on the
part of Koestler, and has been disproven. Your insistence on ignoring this is sad, but correctible.
However, since you remain determined to miss this, we'll eventually have to have this same
discussion again a year or so from now again, where you paste someone else's quotation of
Koestler and someone will, again, have to link to and post the refutations that everyone ELSE
can easily see disproved Koestler YEARS AGO.
...(Excerpts taken from: Appendix 3, Jew and Judean - Jesus Christ our Passover, by: Victor P. Wierwille)
Well, that's better than no mention at all, but you didn't say what was YOU speaking, and what was
JCOP. You didn't use quotes or otherwise indicate what was their words and what was your own.
That's ok, it's almost traditional for vpw to take credit for the work of others, you're just proudly
carrying on that tradition, I expect....morality and legality don't really figure in...
May I point out the fact that not all victims of The Holocaust were Jewish?
Furthermore, what of the many Americans, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who fought and died to liberate concentration camp inmates?(Jewish and non-Jewish)
The scope of The Holocaust is far wider than museums and public recognitions.
Wierwille placed a great deal of focus on his contention that the Jews, as a people and a nation, are somehow fraudulent and that we, the "born-again believers", have taken their place in God's grand scheme of time.
It appears to me that there are really two distinct issues being intertwined with each other.
1. Was The Holocaust real?
a. Were the victim estimates inflated?
This question is historical in nature.
2. Did Wierwille teach that we(the "born-again believers" )are the "true" chosen people of God?
This question is , by shear virtue of the definition of the word "anti", an issue of anti-Semitism.
I would have to conclude that his teaching on this subject was anti-Semitic.
I have consistently found that with myself and with every PFAL grad I’ve had contact with, that the memories we have of what happened and what we were taught SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.
Box “415” is just one recent (and trivial) example of such memory degradation manifested on this thread.
I have spent almost ten years now fixing my memory deficits by refreshing my mind with the “originals” as they were taught IN PRINT. I also sometimes fall back on tape recorded data to line my memories up with what ACTUALLY happened.
There is no print record of this “holocaust” issue that I am aware of, and the tape recorded archives seem to have nothing either. There may be some stray things on tapes here and there that I am unaware of, but I’m pretty darn sure none of this ever comes up in “book and magazine form.”
What I do see in the record, though, is lots of material on the Return of Christ.
I distinctly remember (and have verified these points) that in the late 60’s and early 70’s the country was all abuzz on Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth.” In that VERY popular book Hal Lindsey makes as his MAIN POINT that the late 1940’s United Nations formation of a country in the Middle East was an act of God and that that new resulting country was a actually RE-formation of Biblical Israel. He insists that that country’s formation was the beginning of the Return. Modern Israel being Biblical Israel is the fulcrum for his whole “ministry.”
My memory of the holocaust books, as well as Arthur Koestler’s “The Thirteenth Tribe,” was that their ONLY purpose was to help diminish the impact of Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” main thesis on grads.
Dr was very careful to inform us that the Return of Christ was not in any way implied by the formation of the state of modern Israel (as Lindsey’s thesis strongly insisted), and that the True God had no part in the formation of that country in the Middle East, nor in giving it the name “Israel.” Yes, he was careful to inform us of these things, but we were not so careful in remembering them.
Dr was very careful to remind us that a can of pickles is still pickles, even if you paste on the outside a label that says “tomatoes.” The label doesn’t make it so. The man-made label of “Israel” on a country’s flag and official buildings and stationery does not make that country “beloved of God.” Modern Israel’s formation does not force God’s hand one bit at all in His saying that it’s time for the Return, nor is it a manifestation of His instigating it on His own.
I never bought nor read the holocaust books nor that one by Koestler. Having read Lindsey, I saw many other things that discredited him on other doctrinal issues, so I never felt the need to read the books in question.
I do know that it was always mentioned that the ideas in the holocaust books were that it was EXAGGERATED and HYPED. What the Hey has quite nicely summarized this in his posts above. WordWolf seems to have targeted the manner in which What the Hey presented these things in order to avoid dealing with the thought content of Hey's posts.
I never once heard the idea mentioned that the holocaust did not happened In my Box 328 days.
NEVER HEARD IT!
Not even once! That notion that Dr taught us it did not happen is a recent GreaseSpot phenomenon that’s related to memory degradation (and invention) exacerbated by heavy emotion. In my very first post here I called these two forms of human problems "memrot" and "memnot."
***
By the way, Arthur Koestler was a highly admired scholar and thinker prior to publishing that particular book and covered a VERY wide range of thought (some hooky-pook even). I had read and enjoyed several of his books both before and after his inclusion in the Way Bookstore, and I’ve discussed him here with What the Hey. Koestler must have had a lot of courage to stand behind such an unpopular idea as “The Thirteenth Tribe.” His popularity suffered greatly after it was published.
...and here’s another one for the memory police... I think he may have even been Jewish. Anyone know?
***
In summary, all of the acts of VPW regarding the contents of this thread were to help us think clearly regarding the Return of Christ, un-muddied by Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” and The United Nations formation of a country, especially one the somewhat officially rejects Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
I have consistently found that with myself and with every PFAL grad I’ve had contact with, that the memories we have of what happened and what we were taught SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.
Box “415” is just one recent (and trivial) example of such memory degradation manifested on this thread.
I have spent almost ten years now fixing my memory deficits by refreshing my mind with the “originals” as they were taught IN PRINT. I also sometimes fall back on tape recorded data to line my memories up with what ACTUALLY happened.
There is no print record of this “holocaust” issue that I am aware of, and the tape recorded archives seem to have nothing either. There may be some stray things on tapes here and there that I am unaware of, but I’m pretty darn sure none of this ever comes up in “book and magazine form.”
What I do see in the record, though, is lots of material on the Return of Christ.
I distinctly remember (and have verified these points) that in the late 60’s and early 70’s the country was all abuzz on Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth.” In that VERY popular book Hal Lindsey makes as his MAIN POINT that the late 1940’s United Nations formation of a country in the Middle East was an act of God and that that new resulting country was a actually RE-formation of Biblical Israel. He insists that that country’s formation was the beginning of the Return. Modern Israel being Biblical Israel is the fulcrum for his whole “ministry.”
My memory of the holocaust books, as well as Arthur Koestler’s “The Thirteenth Tribe,” was that their ONLY purpose was to help diminish the impact of Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” main thesis on grads.
Dr was very careful to inform us that the Return of Christ was not in any way implied by the formation of the state of modern Israel (as Lindsey’s thesis strongly insisted), and that the True God had no part in the formation of that country in the Middle East, nor in giving it the name “Israel.” Yes, he was careful to inform us of these things, but we were not so careful in remembering them.
Dr was very careful to remind us that a can of pickles is still pickles, even if you paste on the outside a label that says “tomatoes.” The label doesn’t make it so. The man-made label of “Israel” on a country’s flag and official buildings and stationery does not make that country “beloved of God.” Modern Israel’s formation does not force God’s hand one bit at all in His saying that it’s time for the Return, nor is it a manifestation of His instigating it on His own.
I never bought nor read the holocaust books nor that one by Koestler. Having read Lindsey, I saw many other things that discredited him on other doctrinal issues, so I never felt the need to read the books in question.
I do know that it was always mentioned that the ideas in the holocaust books were that it was EXAGGERATED and HYPED. What the Hey has quite nicely summarized this in his posts above. WordWolf seems to have targeted the manner in which What the Hey presented these things in order to avoid dealing with the thought content and the ideas of Hey's posts.
I never once heard the idea mentioned that the holocaust did not happened in my Box 328 days.
NEVER HEARD IT!
NOT EVEN ONCE!
That notion that Dr taught us it did not happen is a relatively recent phenomenon that’s related to memory degradation (and invention) exacerbated by heavy emotion. In my very first post here 3 years ago I called these two forms of human brain problems "memrot" and "memnot."
***
By the way, Arthur Koestler was a highly admired scholar and thinker prior to publishing that particular book and covered a VERY wide range of thought (some hooky-pook even). I had read and enjoyed several of his books both before and after his inclusion in the Way Bookstore, and I’ve discussed him here with What the Hey. Koestler must have had a lot of courage to stand behind such an unpopular idea as “The Thirteenth Tribe.” His popularity suffered greatly after it was published.
...and here’s another one for the memory police... I think he may have even been Jewish. Anyone know?
***
In summary, all of the acts of VPW regarding the contents of this thread were to help us think clearly regarding the Return of Christ, un-muddied by Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” and The United Nations formation of a country, especially one the somewhat officially rejects Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
Well Mike, maybe you "never heard it" simply 'cause you weren't paying attention.
Fact is "The Myth of the Six Million" and "The Hoax of the 20th Century" were BOTH on the recommended reading list of WayWorld as was Koestler's book. All three of which have been thoroughly discredited. Makes one wonder if there wasn't some sort of agenda that TWI had in regard to modern Jewry? At BEST, their book choices are deeply disturbing, not to mention their fondness for "Bablyon Mystery Religion", but I digress...
The book I don't recall hearing anything about in WayWorld was Hal Lindsey's book. To this day I know next to nothing about it.
If this was what Mr. Wierwille was trying to counteract with his book selections, well I think his actions were unnecessary - at least in my case...
I have consistently found that with myself and with every PFAL grad I’ve had contact with, that the memories we have of what happened and what we were taught SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.
Dr was very careful to remind us that a can of pickles is still pickles, even if you paste on the outside a label that says “tomatoes.” The label doesn’t make it so.
I never once heard the idea mentioned that the holocaust did not happened In my Box 328 days.
NEVER HEARD IT!
snip
Gee, and all this time I thought it said Peaches.
Maybe you've got something there about this memory thing.
but I do remember vp saying we wouldn't have been (much?) worse off if the Germans had won WW2 ... numbers are a little less significant and not tied to anything else. Some things are very clear and tied to a lot of other facts ...
I still don't see why bloodline matters ... surely everyone has a little of every nation by this late date ... 25 years per generation ... 80 generations (at least) to get back to the gospels. What is 2 to the 80th? About ... 1,208,925,819,614,630,000,000,000
That is how many great80 grandparents you have ... square that if you go back another 2000 years ...
I think it is a lot more than there ever have been on earth. Meaning we are all Jews and everything else ... with a good deal of "inbreeding". All it takes is one Jew to wander over to Europe or Africa and somewhere ... we are all related, even if you don't believe in Adam and Eve.
I pulled the tomatoes up from memory, and not from a printed page or tape.
It may have been both... at different times
*******
George Aar,
Yes, you may be right too. Maybe I did not pay enough attention. But I do remember how in later years, like in the late 80’s, people would say that Dr taught “never happened” and I knew right away he had said what I reported above. SOME leaders may have taught it early on, but not Dr.
You wrote: “Fact is "The Myth of the Six Million" and "The Hoax of the 20th Century" were BOTH on the recommended reading list of WayWorld as was Koestler's book. ... If this was what Mr. Wierwille was trying to counteract with his book selections, well I think his actions were unnecessary - at least in my case...”
Yes, I knew that they were in the Bookstore, as I mentioned above, and therefore recommended. But like you, I didn’t feel the need to read them. I had already rejected Lindsey’s book by the time they had been made available to us.
***
You wrote: “All three of which have been thoroughly discredited.”
Now where’s WordWolf to challenge this rhetoric? THOROUGHLY you say?
Tell me some more things that have been THOROUGHLY discredited. Even better, how about some things that are thoroughly CREDITED! Has this “thorough” dis-creditation been THOROUGHLY investigated by you?
The holocaust books may have suffered credibility problems due to the relatively unknown or weird authors, but Koestler can hardly be said to have been discredited. Many tried, but his record as a genuine intellectual still stands. At best they can mostly only say that he must have lost his mind or went senile for that one book.
***
You wrote: “Makes one wonder if there wasn't some sort of agenda that TWI had in regard to modern Jewry? At BEST, their book choices are deeply disturbing, not to mention their fondness for "Bablyon Mystery Religion", but I digress...”
The agenda is what I outlined above: merely the clearing of the muddied waters from Lindsey’s book regarding The Return of Christ.
Just like the label of racist couldn’t stick on VPW (thanks HCW), even though some posters here tried hard to do it, the earlier years of TWI had not a trace of anti-Semitism, BUT THEY DID HAVE a healthy portion of Jewish grads. Some later leaders (renegades against what they were taught) DID DEFINITELY cultivate some of it, but not Dr.
Being a former Catholic, “Babylon Mystery Religion” was a bit of an help to me in my very early ministry years, and NOT DISTURBING AT ALL. Disturbing to practicing Catholics, yes.
I am now glad these books were put there to allow us to think outside the box that What the Hey mentioned above.
There was another very odd book that was enormously useful to us, but very disturbing to the powers that be in advertising and mass media. It was “Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television.” Like Koestler’s “Thirteen Tribe” this book by Gerry Mander quickly became pretty rare. I’m glad I had a chance to see it due to it being placed in the Bookstore for a time.
I was in TWI for longer than I should probably admit, but I never even heard of this Lindsay guy until some time after I departed.Seems like there was an inordinate amount of effort put into refuting teachings that were not even well known to the general populace of believers.
I definitely do not recall the focal point of these teachings being the significance of the 2nd coming.
I'm not saying I don't recall the "2nd coming" being part of them, just that I do not recall that being the focal point or premise, if you will, that these teachings were built upon.
What I do recall is that VPW used this stuff to hammer home the point that it was his learned opinion that God had forsaken the Jews of the Bible(Yes, I know they were not called Jews yet at that point in time.) and appointed "us", instead, to be His "chosen people".
Sounds more to me like VP was trying to build an attitude of ethnocentricity in his listeners.
I never picked up an "an attitude of ethnocentricity" as I listened to him. Just the opposite, I wanted to help all men with the good news... women too!
Actually very little attention was placed on these items at the time. It’s NOW that the inordinate attention is being generated. The books were there, but not heavily touted in any way.
Like I said, Lindsey’s book was VERY popular and the waters were horribly muddied by him. To this day, much of churchianity and much politics are still befuddled by that Middle East country being given a Biblical name, a mere label. Lindsey was not the only one who proposed that Modern Israel was Biblical and signifying the early stages of The Return.
As a Catholic, I had never heard of “the Rapture” nor of the second coming. We were all into the “end of the world” and the wrath, parallel with nuclear annihilation fears. It was Lindsey’s book that first informed me of I Thessalonians. In the RC everyone stands at attention for the Gospel reading, but are allowed to sit and rest during the Epistle reading. I knew nothing of the Gathering Together at all until his book came out. I was not alone.
***
What I was taught is that Israel rejected God and His Messiah, then some came back and believed, then eventually brought in the Gentiles. I see this as a straight line, with one kink in it, the crucifixion.
Those of Israel who believed God after the crucifixion continued on the straight line of following God. These people merely had their name changed, to Christian, and continued on.
The Unbelieving of Israel continued on with the name, the label, but it was THEY who deviated from and rejected God.
Ditto for the Christians. As the centuries progressed they too deviated and rejected the True God, but we grads came back.
I'd forgotten about the "four arguments" book. I'd read that some years before my involvement with WayWorld. IIRC, it was being strongly promoted in the "Mother Earth News" - a periodical that I was want to read in my hippy daze.
As I remember it, it was a rambling, disjointed, often incoherent, voluminous screed against television broadcasting in general.
Yeah, another reasonable addition to WayWorld's scholarly book recommendations!
With regards to the previously mentioned works being discredited, hell, Woodrow (and I think Koestler as well) disavowed their books THEMSELVES! For a bit about Holocaust denial refutation, just scroll up a bit in this very thread to find some references. Or take a look at Shermers' "Why People Believe Wierd Things", he gives a pretty exhaustive analysis of the whole canard...
The "Four Arguments" book was written by a former corporate advertising executive who had a bunch of conscience problems with how blatantly he and his industry were tweaking TV watchers' brain cells. I considered it a useful insider's confession. Maybe you missed that part. Yes, he was a bit too New Age in there for me too in there with some things.
I am not aware of Koestler having second thoughts on his own book. Can you cite it?
Thanks for the info on Khazars, but I never felt a need to even read Keostler's book on them.
I am content knowing I need not pay any special spiritual attention to that area of the world or to those people,
I think that was all Dr was trying to do with placing those books for sale: getting us to not be influenced by a swarm of confusing notions regarding Modern Judaism and it's relation to Christianity.
Thanks for the info on Khazars, but I never felt a need to even read Keostler's book on them.
I am content knowing I need not pay any special spiritual attention to that area of the world or to those people,
I think that was all Dr was trying to do with placing those books for sale: getting us to not be influenced by a swarm of confusing notions regarding Modern Judaism and it's relation to Christianity.
Hmmm.
Let's see.
In order to not confuse and influence the general populace who has never heard of this stuff before, we'll put a bunch of confusing and influential books on sale in the bookstore.
I think that was all Dr was trying to do with placing those books for sale: getting us to not be influenced by a swarm of confusing notions regarding Modern Judaism and it's relation to Christianity.
And what better way to do that than by promoting erroneous propoganda, huh?
"Here KEEEDS! I'll straighten yous all out. Here's a pack of lies that explains everything!"
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
6
8
14
8
Popular Days
Sep 9
33
Sep 7
21
Sep 10
12
Sep 8
9
Top Posters In This Topic
oldiesman 6 posts
WordWolf 8 posts
Mike 14 posts
waysider 8 posts
Popular Days
Sep 9 2007
33 posts
Sep 7 2007
21 posts
Sep 10 2007
12 posts
Sep 8 2007
9 posts
waysider
May I point out the fact that not all victims of The Holocaust were Jewish?
Furthermore, what of the many Americans, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who fought and died to liberate concentration camp inmates?(Jewish and non-Jewish)
The scope of The Holocaust is far wider than museums and public recognitions.
Wierwille placed a great deal of focus on his contention that the Jews, as a people and a nation, are somehow fraudulent and that we, the "born-again believers", have taken their place in God's grand scheme of time.
It appears to me that there are really two distinct issues being intertwined with each other.
1. Was The Holocaust real?
a. Were the victim estimates inflated?
This question is historical in nature.
2. Did Wierwille teach that we(the "born-again believers" )are the "true" chosen people of God?
This question is , by shear virtue of the definition of the word "anti", an issue of anti-Semitism.
I would have to conclude that his teaching on this subject was anti-Semitic.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ductape
“I am not anti-Semitic, I am anti-Zionist.” I am sure that VPW would have wished to be the man he should have been and should have coined that phrase.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
What The Hey
VPW's position did not have anything to do with whether or not the Jews as a people or nation were fraudulent. Rather his position was that the the word "Jew" is a relatively modern term that is applied to those who practice or claim a religion called for by the Old Testament and the Talmud. (The Talmud is a collection of rabbinical law and tradition which was put in its present written form two or three centuries after Christ.)
Because of this, it has been wrongly assumed that most modern Jews are direct lineal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. VPW's position was that scholars (i.e. Arthur Koestler as well as others) have thoroughly documented that the majority of modern Jews are not lineal descendants of Shem, Abraham or Jacob, but rather they are predominantly descendants of an Asiatic tribe known as the Khazars - Gentiles who traced their lineage to Japheth. The Khazars as a whole nation converted to a form of the Judean religion practiced in the seventh or eight century A.D. Apparently VPW got that understanding from reading Koestler - The Thirteenth Tribe. The sources for further study included in JCOPS also reference D.M. Dunlop, Encyclopedia Judaica, M. Fishberg, The Jews: A Study of Race and Environment, Herman Rosenthal, Jewish Encylopedia, Hugo Freugerr von Kutschera, Die Chasaren, and M. Mieses, Die Entstehungsuhrsache der judischen Dialekte as other sources for study in regard to the Khazar empire, as well as Arthur Koestler, The Thirteenth Tribe.
Some historians have considered the Khazar empire the most powerful empire of its day, even stronger than the empires of Rome and Islam. As the Khazar empire declined many Khazars migrated into eastern Europe to form the cradle of modern day Jewry. As Koestler points out in The Thirteenth Tribe, the Khazars were the Third World of their day, and they chose a surprising method of resisting both Western pressure to become Christian and Eastern to adopt Islam. Rejecting both, they converted to Judaisn. I believe there has been previous debate if the evidence really proves whether or not the Khazar heritage dominates the genetic make-up of most modern day Jews as stated by Koestler. It would be interesting to note whether or not if the other sources (those I have listed above as sources for further study) corroborate what Koestler reported or not, rather than the "hearsay" of whatever comes down the Internet pipeline.
European languages called the Khazar descendants by terms which gradually developed into the word "Jew." For example, Shakespeare used the spelling Iewe in his original writings. Assuming the Khazar Jews to be descendants of the Biblical tribes and, therefore, assuming the word "Jew" bo be the proper term for the Judeans of the Bible, translators put the word "Jew" and its related words into the English Bible. It was first included in and English Bible and its present form of "Jew" in the eighteenth century. (Excerpts taken from: Appendix 3, Jew and Judean - Jesus Christ our Passover, by: Victor P. Wierwille)
If VPW shared the exact same views as Mr. Koestler, then your conclusion about VPW's teaching being anti-Semitic would be erroneous. The term anti-Semitism, as Mr. Koestler wrote, is void of meaning as it is based "on a misapprehension shared by both the killers an their victims, as the story of the Khazar Empire unfolds is perhaps the most cruel hoax history has ever perpetrated." VPW's teaching was that we, the born again believers make up the body of Christ and that there is no difference today between the Jew and the Gentile - spiritually speaking. VPW wasn't making that up. He was merely quoting scripture, specifically Romans 10:11,12 as well as other scriptural references in the New Testament regarding both Jews and Gentiles.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
What the Hey,
For the last time, please stop confusing sites like Stormfront and White Power with genuine biblical research resources, ok? I mean, you ought to get some sort of clue that you're dealing with some mentally unstable people when they actually think that Hitler was 'just misunderstood'.
For crying out loud dude. Do you actually think that the Jewish people are behind the pernicious plots to run Hollywood, the world banks, and turn the world to Marxism as these supposed sources of yours seem to indicate? ... Doesn't that sound to you like these sources are seriously overdue for their meds? :ph34r:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
*counts*
I counted 13 museums across the entire US.
(My count may have been off by 1.)
That's your idea of "every major American city"?
And if you didn't have any better documentation than 13,
why say "every major American city?"
Posting rhetoric you cribbed from someone else- or rearranged the words on-
isn't actually STUDY. It's regurgitation, and is only as reliable as the sources you use.
In this case, you're relying on those who make other wild claims all the time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Incorrect.
He stated that those who were called Jews nowadays were not the descendants of the Jews
mentioned in the Old Testament, selected out by God. That's why the term "Judean" was
used in twi-to avoid saying either "Jew" or "so-called Jew", either of which was an unacceptable
situation, albeit for different reasons.
As has already been pointed out here before-and you seem determined to remain in abject denial of-
Koestler's claims were DISPROVEN.
As quoted on the wikipedia entry on his book, "the Thirteenth Tribe",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirteenth_Tribe
"Recent genetic research studies have contradicted the main thesis of The Thirteenth Tribe. For example, a 2000 study of haplotypes by Hammer et al indicates that the Y chromosomes of most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are of Middle Eastern origin, containing mutations that are also common among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern peoples, yet are uncommon in the general European population. These results strongly suggest that most male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews can be traced primarily to the Middle East.
A second study (2006) by Behar et al, based on haplotype analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), also indicates that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women. These four "founder lineages" were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE."
In plain English,
modern Jews not claiming mixed heritage are descended PRIMARILY from the Jews of the Old Testament,
the 12 tribes of Israel.
Modern Jews are NOT descended PRIMARILY from the Khazars. There's genetic evidence of their
12 tribes heritage, but no genetic evidence of a Khazar heritage. That was wild speculation on the
part of Koestler, and has been disproven. Your insistence on ignoring this is sad, but correctible.
However, since you remain determined to miss this, we'll eventually have to have this same
discussion again a year or so from now again, where you paste someone else's quotation of
Koestler and someone will, again, have to link to and post the refutations that everyone ELSE
can easily see disproved Koestler YEARS AGO.
Well, that's better than no mention at all, but you didn't say what was YOU speaking, and what was
JCOP. You didn't use quotes or otherwise indicate what was their words and what was your own.
That's ok, it's almost traditional for vpw to take credit for the work of others, you're just proudly
carrying on that tradition, I expect....morality and legality don't really figure in...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
I'm just curious, is bloodline even important to Jews today?
My sister became Jewish ... is there a seperate category for those outside "the bloodline"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I have consistently found that with myself and with every PFAL grad I’ve had contact with, that the memories we have of what happened and what we were taught SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.
Box “415” is just one recent (and trivial) example of such memory degradation manifested on this thread.
I have spent almost ten years now fixing my memory deficits by refreshing my mind with the “originals” as they were taught IN PRINT. I also sometimes fall back on tape recorded data to line my memories up with what ACTUALLY happened.
There is no print record of this “holocaust” issue that I am aware of, and the tape recorded archives seem to have nothing either. There may be some stray things on tapes here and there that I am unaware of, but I’m pretty darn sure none of this ever comes up in “book and magazine form.”
What I do see in the record, though, is lots of material on the Return of Christ.
I distinctly remember (and have verified these points) that in the late 60’s and early 70’s the country was all abuzz on Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth.” In that VERY popular book Hal Lindsey makes as his MAIN POINT that the late 1940’s United Nations formation of a country in the Middle East was an act of God and that that new resulting country was a actually RE-formation of Biblical Israel. He insists that that country’s formation was the beginning of the Return. Modern Israel being Biblical Israel is the fulcrum for his whole “ministry.”
My memory of the holocaust books, as well as Arthur Koestler’s “The Thirteenth Tribe,” was that their ONLY purpose was to help diminish the impact of Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” main thesis on grads.
Dr was very careful to inform us that the Return of Christ was not in any way implied by the formation of the state of modern Israel (as Lindsey’s thesis strongly insisted), and that the True God had no part in the formation of that country in the Middle East, nor in giving it the name “Israel.” Yes, he was careful to inform us of these things, but we were not so careful in remembering them.
Dr was very careful to remind us that a can of pickles is still pickles, even if you paste on the outside a label that says “tomatoes.” The label doesn’t make it so. The man-made label of “Israel” on a country’s flag and official buildings and stationery does not make that country “beloved of God.” Modern Israel’s formation does not force God’s hand one bit at all in His saying that it’s time for the Return, nor is it a manifestation of His instigating it on His own.
I never bought nor read the holocaust books nor that one by Koestler. Having read Lindsey, I saw many other things that discredited him on other doctrinal issues, so I never felt the need to read the books in question.
I do know that it was always mentioned that the ideas in the holocaust books were that it was EXAGGERATED and HYPED. What the Hey has quite nicely summarized this in his posts above. WordWolf seems to have targeted the manner in which What the Hey presented these things in order to avoid dealing with the thought content of Hey's posts.
I never once heard the idea mentioned that the holocaust did not happened In my Box 328 days.
NEVER HEARD IT!
Not even once! That notion that Dr taught us it did not happen is a recent GreaseSpot phenomenon that’s related to memory degradation (and invention) exacerbated by heavy emotion. In my very first post here I called these two forms of human problems "memrot" and "memnot."
***
By the way, Arthur Koestler was a highly admired scholar and thinker prior to publishing that particular book and covered a VERY wide range of thought (some hooky-pook even). I had read and enjoyed several of his books both before and after his inclusion in the Way Bookstore, and I’ve discussed him here with What the Hey. Koestler must have had a lot of courage to stand behind such an unpopular idea as “The Thirteenth Tribe.” His popularity suffered greatly after it was published.
...and here’s another one for the memory police... I think he may have even been Jewish. Anyone know?
***
In summary, all of the acts of VPW regarding the contents of this thread were to help us think clearly regarding the Return of Christ, un-muddied by Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” and The United Nations formation of a country, especially one the somewhat officially rejects Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I have consistently found that with myself and with every PFAL grad I’ve had contact with, that the memories we have of what happened and what we were taught SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.
Box “415” is just one recent (and trivial) example of such memory degradation manifested on this thread.
I have spent almost ten years now fixing my memory deficits by refreshing my mind with the “originals” as they were taught IN PRINT. I also sometimes fall back on tape recorded data to line my memories up with what ACTUALLY happened.
There is no print record of this “holocaust” issue that I am aware of, and the tape recorded archives seem to have nothing either. There may be some stray things on tapes here and there that I am unaware of, but I’m pretty darn sure none of this ever comes up in “book and magazine form.”
What I do see in the record, though, is lots of material on the Return of Christ.
I distinctly remember (and have verified these points) that in the late 60’s and early 70’s the country was all abuzz on Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth.” In that VERY popular book Hal Lindsey makes as his MAIN POINT that the late 1940’s United Nations formation of a country in the Middle East was an act of God and that that new resulting country was a actually RE-formation of Biblical Israel. He insists that that country’s formation was the beginning of the Return. Modern Israel being Biblical Israel is the fulcrum for his whole “ministry.”
My memory of the holocaust books, as well as Arthur Koestler’s “The Thirteenth Tribe,” was that their ONLY purpose was to help diminish the impact of Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” main thesis on grads.
Dr was very careful to inform us that the Return of Christ was not in any way implied by the formation of the state of modern Israel (as Lindsey’s thesis strongly insisted), and that the True God had no part in the formation of that country in the Middle East, nor in giving it the name “Israel.” Yes, he was careful to inform us of these things, but we were not so careful in remembering them.
Dr was very careful to remind us that a can of pickles is still pickles, even if you paste on the outside a label that says “tomatoes.” The label doesn’t make it so. The man-made label of “Israel” on a country’s flag and official buildings and stationery does not make that country “beloved of God.” Modern Israel’s formation does not force God’s hand one bit at all in His saying that it’s time for the Return, nor is it a manifestation of His instigating it on His own.
I never bought nor read the holocaust books nor that one by Koestler. Having read Lindsey, I saw many other things that discredited him on other doctrinal issues, so I never felt the need to read the books in question.
I do know that it was always mentioned that the ideas in the holocaust books were that it was EXAGGERATED and HYPED. What the Hey has quite nicely summarized this in his posts above. WordWolf seems to have targeted the manner in which What the Hey presented these things in order to avoid dealing with the thought content and the ideas of Hey's posts.
I never once heard the idea mentioned that the holocaust did not happened in my Box 328 days.
NEVER HEARD IT!
NOT EVEN ONCE!
That notion that Dr taught us it did not happen is a relatively recent phenomenon that’s related to memory degradation (and invention) exacerbated by heavy emotion. In my very first post here 3 years ago I called these two forms of human brain problems "memrot" and "memnot."
***
By the way, Arthur Koestler was a highly admired scholar and thinker prior to publishing that particular book and covered a VERY wide range of thought (some hooky-pook even). I had read and enjoyed several of his books both before and after his inclusion in the Way Bookstore, and I’ve discussed him here with What the Hey. Koestler must have had a lot of courage to stand behind such an unpopular idea as “The Thirteenth Tribe.” His popularity suffered greatly after it was published.
...and here’s another one for the memory police... I think he may have even been Jewish. Anyone know?
***
In summary, all of the acts of VPW regarding the contents of this thread were to help us think clearly regarding the Return of Christ, un-muddied by Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” and The United Nations formation of a country, especially one the somewhat officially rejects Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Well Mike, maybe you "never heard it" simply 'cause you weren't paying attention.
Fact is "The Myth of the Six Million" and "The Hoax of the 20th Century" were BOTH on the recommended reading list of WayWorld as was Koestler's book. All three of which have been thoroughly discredited. Makes one wonder if there wasn't some sort of agenda that TWI had in regard to modern Jewry? At BEST, their book choices are deeply disturbing, not to mention their fondness for "Bablyon Mystery Religion", but I digress...
The book I don't recall hearing anything about in WayWorld was Hal Lindsey's book. To this day I know next to nothing about it.
If this was what Mr. Wierwille was trying to counteract with his book selections, well I think his actions were unnecessary - at least in my case...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Gee, and all this time I thought it said Peaches.
Maybe you've got something there about this memory thing.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
so it is Box 328?
fahrenheit 451
409 is that cleaner right?
but I do remember vp saying we wouldn't have been (much?) worse off if the Germans had won WW2 ... numbers are a little less significant and not tied to anything else. Some things are very clear and tied to a lot of other facts ...
I still don't see why bloodline matters ... surely everyone has a little of every nation by this late date ... 25 years per generation ... 80 generations (at least) to get back to the gospels. What is 2 to the 80th? About ... 1,208,925,819,614,630,000,000,000
That is how many great80 grandparents you have ... square that if you go back another 2000 years ...
I think it is a lot more than there ever have been on earth. Meaning we are all Jews and everything else ... with a good deal of "inbreeding". All it takes is one Jew to wander over to Europe or Africa and somewhere ... we are all related, even if you don't believe in Adam and Eve.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
waysider,
You may be right!
I pulled the tomatoes up from memory, and not from a printed page or tape.
It may have been both... at different times
*******
George Aar,
Yes, you may be right too. Maybe I did not pay enough attention. But I do remember how in later years, like in the late 80’s, people would say that Dr taught “never happened” and I knew right away he had said what I reported above. SOME leaders may have taught it early on, but not Dr.
You wrote: “Fact is "The Myth of the Six Million" and "The Hoax of the 20th Century" were BOTH on the recommended reading list of WayWorld as was Koestler's book. ... If this was what Mr. Wierwille was trying to counteract with his book selections, well I think his actions were unnecessary - at least in my case...”
Yes, I knew that they were in the Bookstore, as I mentioned above, and therefore recommended. But like you, I didn’t feel the need to read them. I had already rejected Lindsey’s book by the time they had been made available to us.
***
You wrote: “All three of which have been thoroughly discredited.”
Now where’s WordWolf to challenge this rhetoric? THOROUGHLY you say?
Tell me some more things that have been THOROUGHLY discredited. Even better, how about some things that are thoroughly CREDITED! Has this “thorough” dis-creditation been THOROUGHLY investigated by you?
The holocaust books may have suffered credibility problems due to the relatively unknown or weird authors, but Koestler can hardly be said to have been discredited. Many tried, but his record as a genuine intellectual still stands. At best they can mostly only say that he must have lost his mind or went senile for that one book.
***
You wrote: “Makes one wonder if there wasn't some sort of agenda that TWI had in regard to modern Jewry? At BEST, their book choices are deeply disturbing, not to mention their fondness for "Bablyon Mystery Religion", but I digress...”
The agenda is what I outlined above: merely the clearing of the muddied waters from Lindsey’s book regarding The Return of Christ.
Just like the label of racist couldn’t stick on VPW (thanks HCW), even though some posters here tried hard to do it, the earlier years of TWI had not a trace of anti-Semitism, BUT THEY DID HAVE a healthy portion of Jewish grads. Some later leaders (renegades against what they were taught) DID DEFINITELY cultivate some of it, but not Dr.
Being a former Catholic, “Babylon Mystery Religion” was a bit of an help to me in my very early ministry years, and NOT DISTURBING AT ALL. Disturbing to practicing Catholics, yes.
I am now glad these books were put there to allow us to think outside the box that What the Hey mentioned above.
There was another very odd book that was enormously useful to us, but very disturbing to the powers that be in advertising and mass media. It was “Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television.” Like Koestler’s “Thirteen Tribe” this book by Gerry Mander quickly became pretty rare. I’m glad I had a chance to see it due to it being placed in the Bookstore for a time.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
hi mike
when did you get back ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Hi Exy,
I've always been here, just been quiet. ;)
I read the thread titles every day, and once in a while a thread's content.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I was in TWI for longer than I should probably admit, but I never even heard of this Lindsay guy until some time after I departed.Seems like there was an inordinate amount of effort put into refuting teachings that were not even well known to the general populace of believers.
I definitely do not recall the focal point of these teachings being the significance of the 2nd coming.
I'm not saying I don't recall the "2nd coming" being part of them, just that I do not recall that being the focal point or premise, if you will, that these teachings were built upon.
What I do recall is that VPW used this stuff to hammer home the point that it was his learned opinion that God had forsaken the Jews of the Bible(Yes, I know they were not called Jews yet at that point in time.) and appointed "us", instead, to be His "chosen people".
Sounds more to me like VP was trying to build an attitude of ethnocentricity in his listeners.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
waysider,
I never picked up an "an attitude of ethnocentricity" as I listened to him. Just the opposite, I wanted to help all men with the good news... women too!
Actually very little attention was placed on these items at the time. It’s NOW that the inordinate attention is being generated. The books were there, but not heavily touted in any way.
Like I said, Lindsey’s book was VERY popular and the waters were horribly muddied by him. To this day, much of churchianity and much politics are still befuddled by that Middle East country being given a Biblical name, a mere label. Lindsey was not the only one who proposed that Modern Israel was Biblical and signifying the early stages of The Return.
As a Catholic, I had never heard of “the Rapture” nor of the second coming. We were all into the “end of the world” and the wrath, parallel with nuclear annihilation fears. It was Lindsey’s book that first informed me of I Thessalonians. In the RC everyone stands at attention for the Gospel reading, but are allowed to sit and rest during the Epistle reading. I knew nothing of the Gathering Together at all until his book came out. I was not alone.
***
What I was taught is that Israel rejected God and His Messiah, then some came back and believed, then eventually brought in the Gentiles. I see this as a straight line, with one kink in it, the crucifixion.
Those of Israel who believed God after the crucifixion continued on the straight line of following God. These people merely had their name changed, to Christian, and continued on.
The Unbelieving of Israel continued on with the name, the label, but it was THEY who deviated from and rejected God.
Ditto for the Christians. As the centuries progressed they too deviated and rejected the True God, but we grads came back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
HA!
I'd forgotten about the "four arguments" book. I'd read that some years before my involvement with WayWorld. IIRC, it was being strongly promoted in the "Mother Earth News" - a periodical that I was want to read in my hippy daze.
As I remember it, it was a rambling, disjointed, often incoherent, voluminous screed against television broadcasting in general.
Yeah, another reasonable addition to WayWorld's scholarly book recommendations!
With regards to the previously mentioned works being discredited, hell, Woodrow (and I think Koestler as well) disavowed their books THEMSELVES! For a bit about Holocaust denial refutation, just scroll up a bit in this very thread to find some references. Or take a look at Shermers' "Why People Believe Wierd Things", he gives a pretty exhaustive analysis of the whole canard...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
The "Four Arguments" book was written by a former corporate advertising executive who had a bunch of conscience problems with how blatantly he and his industry were tweaking TV watchers' brain cells. I considered it a useful insider's confession. Maybe you missed that part. Yes, he was a bit too New Age in there for me too in there with some things.
I am not aware of Koestler having second thoughts on his own book. Can you cite it?
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Nope, I can't cite it, Mike. You see it was a little-known text that I stumbled upon in my research and I can't currently locate it.
That's O.K. from a Wierwillian-scholarship point of view though, no?
Actually I may be entirely mistaken on that point. Seems like I heard it, but I can find no evidence of it on the net.
I did find this though, if you're really into arcane bits of trivia: http://www.britam.org/khazars.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Thanks for the info on Khazars, but I never felt a need to even read Keostler's book on them.
I am content knowing I need not pay any special spiritual attention to that area of the world or to those people,
I think that was all Dr was trying to do with placing those books for sale: getting us to not be influenced by a swarm of confusing notions regarding Modern Judaism and it's relation to Christianity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hmmm.
Let's see.
In order to not confuse and influence the general populace who has never heard of this stuff before, we'll put a bunch of confusing and influential books on sale in the bookstore.
Yep.
That makes sense.
<_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
[quote name='Mike' date='Sep 9 2007, 04:34 PM' post='366271'
I think that was all Dr was trying to do with placing those books for sale: getting us to not be influenced by a swarm of confusing notions regarding Modern Judaism and it's relation to Christianity.
And what better way to do that than by promoting erroneous propoganda, huh?
"Here KEEEDS! I'll straighten yous all out. Here's a pack of lies that explains everything!"
Edited by George AarLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.