Hi Steve! Yes, I have been studying the ''Orthodox Preterism" view for some time now. Not the heretical, full or ''Hyperpreterist'' belief that Jesus returned to earth and all judgements are final now view.
This seems to be the direction you are headed with the belief in a rapture then. Am I right?
Do you believe that all is over? No judgments left?
I do believe that the destruction of Jeruselem and the Temple in 70ad was a fulfillment of many prophesies..........
and that the whole ''Left Behind'' series has plagued many well meaning Christians, into a sort of gloom-doom life.
But I don't believe that Jesus had returned for the judgements.
I don't believe in a ''rapture'' or ''gathering together''. I believe when he comes back, judgement time.
For those interested in studying this topic, I suggest to
check out www.preteristsite.com
She has ooodles of info on there.
As well as
www.tektonics.org
Great sites for this kind of study.
I was so disappointed in my lack of knowledge concerning religious history and what really befell Isreal in those days.
Josephus records many of the horrifying incidents when Nero's gang from Rome destroyed the temple and the people there.
bliss, No I am not a full preterist. I do believe that evil in all its forms will be completely destroyed at the final ressurrection and judgement. Rev 20:10 - 15. I am still unclear about Rev 21. Some believe that Rev 21 returns to 70 A.D.and the new heavens and earth are spiritual. In other words, in post 70 A.D earth... God is dealing with man in a different way. It's the new heavens and earth of the new covenant. I have also considered a literal new heavens and earth being created.
As far as the rapture/gathering together... I believe that it was a literal catching up of the 1st century christians who stuck with Christ through total hell on earth from the persecution they endured. Also known as the martyrs. Satan was literally trying to kill every one of them through the antichrist(possibly Nero) and seed of satan jews. Christians have not quite endured that level of hostility since. This appears to be the 1st ressurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:5. The dead in Christ are raised and caught up with the ones still alive. Not sure if this includes the old testament believers. This web site has an interesting perspective: http://www.preteristviewpoint.com/id5.html I think these people are full preterists which I am not, however, I agree with their explanation of a literal catching up of the 1st century saints.
Nice thread. Greetings to all. Preterism IS a good topic and, I think, not to be dismissed. I can't discern the difference tween orthodox and heterodox preterism. someone else can give us those dividing lines. I remember seeing a website that claims that both preterism and futurism are both plots by Catholics to keep us all from seeing that the Roman Catholic church herself (and that old Beast the Pope) Is the very fulfillment of prophecy. Let us not forget the Spanish Inquisition (NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquistion! ooo!).
but anyway. IamSteve, I humbly suggest you might enjoy reading a book called When Time Shall Be No More. by Paul Boyer. I found this to be a very very helpful work on the History of Prophecy. I don't remember Mr. Boyer getting into Preterism specifically but the grand history of how Christianity has acted in different centuries is very enlightening. Context is King and History is context. It is a wonderful thing. God Bless you Doctor Hedstrom, where ever you are!
In many ways I think a significant jolt of preterism would be a refreshing thing for our Christianity. As for me, providence has placed me in a place where I don't even believe the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back. I believe he is the most recent incarnation of Vishnu. I've taken a more hindu perspective on things -but hey- don't let that get us off track okay? :(
Christ Jesus is in my marrow. and I believe He'll come back at the end-of-days. where does that fit into our eschatology?
I believe that it was a literal catching up of the 1st century christians who stuck with Christ through total hell on earth from the persecution they endured. Also known as the martyrs. Satan was literally trying to kill every one of them through the antichrist(possibly Nero) and seed of satan jews. Christians have not quite endured that level of hostility since.
I would have to disagree with that statement. Saints have continued to be burned at the stake, there is persecution today in the African countries, and I've just experienced and for that matter am still experiencing intense persecution since I started my ministry. Talk about satan jews....try satan christians. I believe Jesus called them "tares" and "wolves in sheep's clothing." He also said that there would be those who will think that by killing you they are doing God a service, hence this implies that these people think that they know God and serve Him. RIGHT! Well anyway...
I have no real position on the subject but did mull around The Last Trumpet for a while after leaving TWI. The site did convince me to reconsider my position on the rapture and pre-trib views of the future. Its kind of fun reading even if every discussion about the end times, here, there or anywhere, is pure speculation.
In all the readings and studying I've done since The Way Days, what looks the most sense-able is simply: He is coming back at the end of the world. And yet, that IS the rub isn't it? If the preterists are true He already came back when Titus leveled Jerusalem once and for all.
In all the readings and studying I've done since The Way Days, what looks the most sense-able is simply: He is coming back at the end of the world. And yet, that IS the rub isn't it? If the preterists are true He already came back when Titus leveled Jerusalem once and for all.
You are partially right Carl. The 'rub' is that it is NOT FINISHED. He is coming.................but for what is the question ''partial'' preterists asks.
The ''Full'' or "Hyper'' preterist camp claim he came back and all is done. Most consider this position ''heretical''. I agree.
In true preterism this is not the case.
They believe in the Olivet discouse in Mat 24......describes what happend to the temple and people in 60AD. Note Jesus talking about ''this generation''.........But he is still coming back for the judgements and to finish his course.
The HOPE is still THE HOPE! When he comes, he comes. And we will be there for it all.
It's just not with all the ''rapture'', 7 year tribulation hoopla.
it's nice to know that. thank you for the clarification. that what you said has a ring of sound doctrine to it. as far as something we might call 'sound Christian doctrine.' I don't see any other way to explain the "this generation" condition in the Gospels.
This is a fascinating topic. One of the biggest turnarounds in my perspective on the Bible happened a few years ago when I began to read the Scripture from the perspective of its original audience, as Steve has done (Welcome SteveIam).
My conclusion was similar. Much of the NT is based on the belief and expectation that Jesus would return for THEM. The verses cited in Matthew 24 and Revelation chapter one are some of the clearest, but this thread runs throughout the NT, even the Pauline epistles.
Romans chapter 1:18 for example, says "For the wrath of God is reaveled from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness."
Not the wrath of God shall be revealed, he said IS revealed. Paul believed that God's wrath and judgement were either ongoing or imminent. This belief is also the undercurrent of Romans 8:13, which doesn't hold true to fact unless one views it as a statement made in anticipation of Christ's speedy return.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. But if ye, through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Now if we think of this as TWI and most Fundies do and read ourselves and our times into this verse, it is simply not true. We know PLENTY of people, some in our former associaton who lived after the flesh and are still foggin' the mirror. And there are those who lived godly lives and are deceased. So the verse, as written, cannot be believed literally. But if we remember 1:18, and consider the possiblitiy that Paul was expecting Christ to return any day and wipe out the unbelieving and evil and save the just, a whole new meaning surfaces. I think Paul wrote this verse believing that Jesus would come back and judge the Church and the world and only spare the righteous. The same connotation can be clearly seen in throughout the book of Hebrews, beginning in chapter 2 ("How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?"). Here are a few snippets.
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Hbr 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it]not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 10:23 - 31 speaks in strong language of judgment on God's people for failing to believe until the end. The end was expected and referred to as visibly imminent.
Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our]faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hbr 10:31 [it is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Sobering stuff. This is not the cheery hopeful expecation we learned in TWITville, in which everybody gets eternal rewards. The exhortation to hold on for a promised deliverance becomes moe intense in the following verses. Again, the context is an expectation that Christ would return quickly, "in a little while". "He...will not tarry". And when he arrives, those who didn't live righteously right up until the end are not going to be greeted with open arms and Cheezits.
Hbr 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hbr 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
"Draw back unto perdition" connotes a failure of faithfulness resulting in destruction. The context sets this in contrast to the following phrase referring to believing and salvation. The phrase "...believe to the saving of the soul" implies that salvation is achieved not by believing one time, but believing for a lifetime. I know this contradicts what we were taught about salvation by grace and all that, but these verses must be in here for a reason.
I have grappled with them for several years and the most logical conclusion seems to me that the NT writers expected a speedy return of Christ, resulting in salvation for the faithful and judgment for the unfaithful. I don't know much about preterism, but I can see the foundation of it in passages like these. This of course raises a ginormous doctrinal dilemma. If these Apostles and Prophets were right, Jesus should have been here years ago, centuries ago, milennia ago! So I guess the preterists assume that the Apostles were right and Jesus really did come back and judge the earth. He just decided not to stick around.
While I can see the basis for the doctrine, I find hard to believe that Jesus Christ has already come back and judged the earth, in fulfilment of all the prophecies of the book of Revelation. If that is the case, and this belief is based on an acceptance of these Biblical prophecies as sound and true, then we are to assume that we are living either in the thousand year Kingdom or the new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteouosness.
I cannot accept the latter, but the former is possible.
I Corinthians 15 speaks of the Kingdom of Christ as a heavenly one, not an earthly kingdom. This of course agrees with Jesus' testimony before the Pilate and the High Priest that his kingdom was not of this world. A comparative reading of Acts 2:30-35 and I Corinthians 15: 23 - 28 indicates that the promised reign of the Messiah began with the Ascension and will continue, not as a period of perfect peace on earth, as Revelation predicts, but a time of struggle during which the Lord's enemies will be eventually vanquished.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
"Until I make thy foes thy footstool" means 'until I defeat your enemies and humble them under your feet. So according to Peter's interpretation of David's prophecy, when Jesus Christ was taken up into heaven, God seated him at the right hand of his throne (witnessed by Stephen just before he was martyred). Christ is to remain there, seated at God's right hand until God defeats his enemies. Again, this implies that the advent of the Kingdom of Christ did not automatically defeat the evil and banish wickedness from the land, as we have been lead to believe. Rather it is the beginning of a struggle, the END of which, will bring the end of evil on the earth. I Corinthians 15:24 - 28 is more specific about this chain of events.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh]the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (katargeo) all rule and all authority and power.
katargeo is most often translated "destroy", "do away with" or "abolish". To put down rule in this passage does not mean to lay down as one lays down a hat on a bed. The end comes when the Father has abolished all rule and authority and power that is in oppositon to the Kingdom of His Son!
1Cr 15:25 For he (Jesus) must reign, till he(God) hath put all enemies under his (Jesus') feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that]shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
So putting I Corinthians and Acts together seems to tell us that the Kingdom of Christ is not the earthly kingdom of Revelaton, but a heavenly Kingdom given to him by God Almighty who is working to subdue its enemies. When those enemies are put down, Jesus Kingdom will come to an end and he will turn the throne over to God himself. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. This is the most intriguing aspect of this interpretation.
Rather than looking forward to the return of Christ to abolish death, these passages indicate that it will be the opposite. The abolition of death is what will trigger the end of Christ's Kingdom and the end of this age. Then comes the gathering together.
Putting the gathering together after the end of the struggles between God and Satan (the enemies of the Kingdom) also clears up some apparent contradictions between the chronologies of I Corinthians 15 and I thessalonians 4 and 5, but that's a topic for another thread.
great post. I studied it closely and followed it through. Good, yes. You may be aware of this but I can't pass up the chance to remind everyone: Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT scripture in the NT.
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Psalm 110:1)
and this fact, I think, really sets your post on one seriously unmovable Rock!
He must Reign until all enemies are His footstool. Upon this Rock shall He build His church. The very gates of Hell cannot prevail against it!
and if the preterists are correct, then it may be as you say,
then we are to assume that we are living ... in the thousand year Kingdom
. and this makes the Parousia Postmillennial does it not? And postmillennialism was very popular in the U.S. until WWI. Remember, Christians in the colonies believed that North America was the location of the New Jerusalem 200 years before the Latter-Day-Saints made it one of their doctrines.
In closing, Albert Schweitzer was a blessing to me for study. He helped me see that all the endtime prophecies of the primitive Christians was completely in the context of ancient Jewish eschatology. There must come a Messianic Kingdom. Jesus was to bring that when He came back. Now, if He came back in 70AD as the Preterists tell us, then where is that Kingdom? We are living in it now, maybe not me but somebody.
Quite right Carl. If we are living in the "thousand year" kingdom, the parousia is postmillenial. The obvious problem there is that the Kingdom began well over 1,000 years ago. I don't think its much of a stretch to interpret the phrase a thousand years as a figure of speech referring to a very, very long time. It may be two, three, or ten thousand years before the time of this age if fulfilled.
Thanks Bliss. I've bookmarked the Preterist debate website and intend to study it in the days to come. I still have lots of questions about this topic and Im not really expecting to find a single theology that pulls all the Scriptural threads together into a tidy package.
Jerry, We have been studying Revelation at church this year and it's taken on a totally different look to me. I will look up more on preterist, but one thing I must agree on is the insight of faithfulness. Revelations biggest message at that time was to these poor Christians being persecuted. It is telling them in so many ways to hang in there, this persecution won't last forever. You may not live to see the end of it (just like the guys in Hebrews didn't), but God has that sown up for you. You'll wind up with the Lord in heaven. One of the historic things brought up was that the way most see the book of Revelation today was started around the end of the 1800's. Before that it was taken for what it was, an apocolyptic writing. Lots of symbolism. However, that symbolism meant something to those people alive at that time. I just never looked at Revelation as a comfort, but after sitting through this study, my views are dramatically changing.
You guys would really enjoy it over on www.theologyweb.com
You can get into all this stuff with very well educated and ''deep thinking'' persons.......... :unsure:
I enjoy it very much.
I also recomend, as I said before, on the ''orthodox preterist'' study
www.preteristsite.com
bless
:o But, but.... but..... you mean it's okay to get on the internet?? It's okay to question things, read stuff put out by someone other than TWI? You mean we can actually learn something from someone who might not believe every single thing exactly the way we do??
:P Isn't it great to have the freedom to question things - learn new things and talk about it with all kinds of folks with so much knowledge and to have access to resources so much more vast than anything TWI ever provided?
I'm just amazed at all that's out there and how very limited our knowledge was in TWI - yet how friggin' arrogant and egotistical we were - knowledge puffeth up but we didn't even have any knowledge to be puffed up about! LOL!
Thanks for the links, Bliss.
Thanks for the comments on this thread, too. I haven't posted but have been enjoying reading. Jerry, I always learn from you. Thanks for sharing, y'all.
I must respectfully disagree about Preterism, although I once thought it was the correct view. I'll list why I disagree with it.
1. The doctrine of Preterism is a Jesuit invention, whose goal was protecting the Catholic church and the Pope from the visions in Revelation (i.e., the "beast" is Rome, the woman who rides the beast, the harlot is the Catholic church, etc.).
2. Preterists believe that ALL prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. They generally believe that all of the prophecies relating to the end-times were fulfilled spiritually circa AD 70.
Result, they accept the OT prophecies as literal and true, yet "spiritualize" Revelation. Even though Revelation is the literal fulfillment of the OT prophecies, to have the doctrine of Preterism stand, everything in Revelation is now a spiritual allegory, nothing to be taken literally, no prophecies fulfilled.
For example, Preterism spiritualizes all passages of scripture in the New Testament that relate to the nation of Israel and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel". They teach that the "old earth", which scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and earth, they say, is the New Covenant and the "elements" which scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law." (Does this mean the 10 Commandments are now defunct?)
Preterism can produce some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity - instead of the peace under Christ's rule, and superabundance of the earth, all tears wiped away, no more pain and sorrow, etc., that is found in Revelation. Does the description of earth in Rev 21-22 even come close to the state of the world today?
4. Revelation was most likely NOT written during the persecutions of Nero, but near the end of the century, 30 years after Nero.
There are many reasons for this, but I'll hit on a couple of the most common, although there are many more. First, the church was already in error. When we read about the 7 churches in Rev. we see that Ephesus had "lost its first love." Smyrna had those who belonged to "the synagogue of Satan." Pergamos had not only Nicolaitanes, but those who held "the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of Israel," etc.
All of the Churches were already in a state of decline from what they were when Paul wrote his Epistles to some of them - this takes time.
Second, according to the early "church fathers," with few exceptions, they are unanimous in ascribing the exile of John, and the writing of the Apocalypse, to the time of Domitian. Irenaeus, Victorinus, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Jerome, etc. They all wrote that John was the prophet who was banished under Domitian (30 years after Nero) and had the great Revelation.
4. For Revelation to have occurred in AD 70 - and all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, then you must then ask:
When was the Gospel preached to all the nations (notwithstanding LCM's entering into the promised land)?
When was the Mark of the Beast implemented?
When were the two witnesses killed in front of the entire earth, their deaths rejoiced over by the world, then raised after 3 days?
What about the King of the East’s (China?) 200 million man army?
When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky?
When did the world's water turn to blood? ("as they have spilled the blood of the prophets, let them drink blood")
When did the Euphrates dry up?
Why did we have a rebirth of Israel - again?
If Jerusalem was forever removed in 70 A.D., why is it back?
Where is the new heaven new earth?
Where is the great white throne?
When did all mankind see Christ returning with his saints and wail and try and hide themselves?
Where is the new Jerusalem come down to earth?
When did Christ return in total Glory for all to see?
Where is Christ who rules the earth from Jeruselem?
Where is the no more sorrow and tears?
It goes on and on.
Thus, while Preterism does a good job of absolving the Catholic church from any possiblity of being the "Babylon Mystery Religion" to come, and is an interesting theory, I do not believe it true.
I must respectfully disagree about Preterism, although I once thought it was the correct view. I'll list why I disagree with it.
1. The doctrine of Preterism is a Jesuit invention, whose goal was protecting the Catholic church and the Pope from the visions in Revelation (i.e., the "beast" is Rome, the woman who rides the beast, the harlot is the Catholic church, etc.).
2. Preterists believe that ALL prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. They generally believe that all of the prophecies relating to the end-times were fulfilled spiritually circa AD 70.
Result, they accept the OT prophecies as literal and true, yet "spiritualize" Revelation. Even though Revelation is the literal fulfillment of the OT prophecies, to have the doctrine of Preterism stand, everything in Revelation is now a spiritual allegory, nothing to be taken literally, no prophecies fulfilled.
For example, Preterism spiritualizes all passages of scripture in the New Testament that relate to the nation of Israel and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel". They teach that the "old earth", which scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and earth, they say, is the New Covenant and the "elements" which scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law." (Does this mean the 10 Commandments are now defunct?)
Preterism can produce some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity - instead of the peace under Christ's rule, and superabundance of the earth, all tears wiped away, no more pain and sorrow, etc., that is found in Revelation. Does the description of earth in Rev 21-22 even come close to the state of the world today?
4. Revelation was most likely NOT written during the persecutions of Nero, but near the end of the century, 30 years after Nero.
There are many reasons for this, but I'll hit on a couple of the most common, although there are many more. First, the church was already in error. When we read about the 7 churches in Rev. we see that Ephesus had "lost its first love." Smyrna had those who belonged to "the synagogue of Satan." Pergamos had not only Nicolaitanes, but those who held "the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of Israel," etc.
All of the Churches were already in a state of decline from what they were when Paul wrote his Epistles to some of them - this takes time.
Second, according to the early "church fathers," with few exceptions, they are unanimous in ascribing the exile of John, and the writing of the Apocalypse, to the time of Domitian. Irenaeus, Victorinus, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Jerome, etc. They all wrote that John was the prophet who was banished under Domitian (30 years after Nero) and had the great Revelation.
4. For Revelation to have occurred in AD 70 - and all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, then you must then ask:
When was the Gospel preached to all the nations (notwithstanding LCM's entering into the promised land)?
When was the Mark of the Beast implemented?
When were the two witnesses killed in front of the entire earth, their deaths rejoiced over by the world, then raised after 3 days?
What about the King of the East’s (China?) 200 million man army?
When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky?
When did the world's water turn to blood? ("as they have spilled the blood of the prophets, let them drink blood")
When did the Euphrates dry up?
Why did we have a rebirth of Israel - again?
If Jerusalem was forever removed in 70 A.D., why is it back?
Where is the new heaven new earth?
Where is the great white throne?
When did all mankind see Christ returning with his saints and wail and try and hide themselves?
Where is the new Jerusalem come down to earth?
When did Christ return in total Glory for all to see?
Where is Christ who rules the earth from Jeruselem?
Where is the no more sorrow and tears?
It goes on and on.
Thus, while Preterism does a good job of absolving the Catholic church from any possiblity of being the "Babylon Mystery Religion" to come, and is an interesting theory, I do not believe it true.
Bliss - anyone with Xena - Warrior Queen! on the page is a friend of mine :)
I thought it was a very good article. I can understand his feelings re semantics, and I think he feels Preterism - the more moderate version which does not believe all has happened, has been hijacked and people think of hyperpreterism when they think of Preterism.
I think many Christians have many differing views on how the world/and we, arrive at the events in the Book of Revelation. Also, for example, the 7 churches in Revelation - some think it shows the many different types and varieties of churches now - one of them described may fit your church, or, others think its a historical/chronological history of the church through the ages and we're in the last one, the Laodicean one, now, others think...
What ever one believes, I think one must keep in mind, the bible is a book of prophecy, who's center is Christ.
I think if one realizes these 3 simple things, then whatever else they choose to believe is great. The 3 things are:
1. The OT prophecizes the redeemer to come - Christ. Christ is shown as the suffering, perfect sacrificial lamb (which came to pass and was fulfilled when he was condemned to death (sacrificed) by the High Priest Pilate), and shown as the one coming back in Glory. There were two aspects to him. The priests were looking for the Ruler/Glorious one and overlooked the meek sacrificial lamb who's blood had to be shed for all.
2. In the NT - He came to the earth from above, he was "God with us," he was sacrified, risen and is now preparing a place for us in heaven. He will return in the air for us (does not come to earth).
3. Revelation - The glorified Christ rises and judgment of the Gentiles and Jews commences. He returns with his own to earth and rules and restores order.
Without the Book of Revelation, there is no ending to the story that began in Genesis. Without an end to the story, there is no hope for mankind.
Its interesting, because even if we don't understand all of the Book of Revelation, Christ does say, blessed are those who read it.
There's a special blessing to those who read it. He doesn't say you have to understand it, just read it.
At the end, he tells us, it is written for the church. In it, the Glorious Messiah/Christ is revealed in all his full glory. It is our Hope (Christ) revealed.
Thus, I do not believe this all happened in AD 70 or a bit beyond - we do not have our new bodies and are not with our Lord, with him in our new bodies, as a new creation, unlike any ever seen before, like as a bride never to be separated from him.
I agree, its a great feeling just kind of going with the flow (or Spirit) and ending up where it leads.
I left TWI and explored, looked at this and that, thought this was right, then changed my mind - it took time, but I really believe as we are not afraid to explore all possibilities and hold to that which is good, as you look back, you can see how God has led you and taught you.
God is vastly varied and wants us to know his varied and manifold wisdom (Eph.). I think it would be weird, robotic and awful if we all thought the same way and believed the exact same thing.
I guess now, I fall into the rapture, pre-trib, futurist gang :) But that was after I was a universalist, preterist, mid-trib, then post-trib.
I guess my point is, it takes time to study things, then you learn about another topic - and well, how do these fit together? All of them are fascinating, but I think the Spirit will lead you into truth in his own way with each person individually.
Xena would still be kind of a cool name, don't you think? :)
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TheInvisibleDan
Welcome IamSteve -
I first encountered the preterist perspective several years ago through the footnotes in Weymouth's New Testament, which cited
works such as Russell's "The Parousia" and another work entitled "The Lord Has Come". I think the Preterist view has a lot going
for it, in that it may serve as a decent introduction toward considering more intensely the content of the NT writings, its prophecies, its end-time
scenarios against the backdrop of their actual, immediate historical contexts.
Which in turn can lead to "harder stuff" like "higher criticism"...
I enjoy the Preterist archive site. When coming across the preterist view in pre-internet days of old, I could not for all my efforts track down
certain works like Russell's "The Parousia" cited in Weymouth (aside from a microfich of "The Lord Has Come"). Now it's posted online, along
with many other rare works.
Danny
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Abigail
I'm reading. Hope you will share more.
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bliss
Hi Steve! Yes, I have been studying the ''Orthodox Preterism" view for some time now. Not the heretical, full or ''Hyperpreterist'' belief that Jesus returned to earth and all judgements are final now view.
This seems to be the direction you are headed with the belief in a rapture then. Am I right?
Do you believe that all is over? No judgments left?
I do believe that the destruction of Jeruselem and the Temple in 70ad was a fulfillment of many prophesies..........
and that the whole ''Left Behind'' series has plagued many well meaning Christians, into a sort of gloom-doom life.
But I don't believe that Jesus had returned for the judgements.
I don't believe in a ''rapture'' or ''gathering together''. I believe when he comes back, judgement time.
For those interested in studying this topic, I suggest to
check out www.preteristsite.com
She has ooodles of info on there.
As well as
www.tektonics.org
Great sites for this kind of study.
I was so disappointed in my lack of knowledge concerning religious history and what really befell Isreal in those days.
Josephus records many of the horrifying incidents when Nero's gang from Rome destroyed the temple and the people there.
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IamSteve
bliss, No I am not a full preterist. I do believe that evil in all its forms will be completely destroyed at the final ressurrection and judgement. Rev 20:10 - 15. I am still unclear about Rev 21. Some believe that Rev 21 returns to 70 A.D.and the new heavens and earth are spiritual. In other words, in post 70 A.D earth... God is dealing with man in a different way. It's the new heavens and earth of the new covenant. I have also considered a literal new heavens and earth being created.
As far as the rapture/gathering together... I believe that it was a literal catching up of the 1st century christians who stuck with Christ through total hell on earth from the persecution they endured. Also known as the martyrs. Satan was literally trying to kill every one of them through the antichrist(possibly Nero) and seed of satan jews. Christians have not quite endured that level of hostility since. This appears to be the 1st ressurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:5. The dead in Christ are raised and caught up with the ones still alive. Not sure if this includes the old testament believers. This web site has an interesting perspective: http://www.preteristviewpoint.com/id5.html I think these people are full preterists which I am not, however, I agree with their explanation of a literal catching up of the 1st century saints.
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Carl Smuda
Nice thread. Greetings to all. Preterism IS a good topic and, I think, not to be dismissed. I can't discern the difference tween orthodox and heterodox preterism. someone else can give us those dividing lines. I remember seeing a website that claims that both preterism and futurism are both plots by Catholics to keep us all from seeing that the Roman Catholic church herself (and that old Beast the Pope) Is the very fulfillment of prophecy. Let us not forget the Spanish Inquisition (NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquistion! ooo!).
but anyway. IamSteve, I humbly suggest you might enjoy reading a book called When Time Shall Be No More. by Paul Boyer. I found this to be a very very helpful work on the History of Prophecy. I don't remember Mr. Boyer getting into Preterism specifically but the grand history of how Christianity has acted in different centuries is very enlightening. Context is King and History is context. It is a wonderful thing. God Bless you Doctor Hedstrom, where ever you are!
In many ways I think a significant jolt of preterism would be a refreshing thing for our Christianity. As for me, providence has placed me in a place where I don't even believe the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back. I believe he is the most recent incarnation of Vishnu. I've taken a more hindu perspective on things -but hey- don't let that get us off track okay? :(
Christ Jesus is in my marrow. and I believe He'll come back at the end-of-days. where does that fit into our eschatology?
respectfully,
Carl
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brideofjc
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JumpinJive
An interesting discussion/debate on the subject from The Last Trumpet website: http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/debate3.html
I have no real position on the subject but did mull around The Last Trumpet for a while after leaving TWI. The site did convince me to reconsider my position on the rapture and pre-trib views of the future. Its kind of fun reading even if every discussion about the end times, here, there or anywhere, is pure speculation.
-JJ
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Carl Smuda
In all the readings and studying I've done since The Way Days, what looks the most sense-able is simply: He is coming back at the end of the world. And yet, that IS the rub isn't it? If the preterists are true He already came back when Titus leveled Jerusalem once and for all.
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bliss
You are partially right Carl. The 'rub' is that it is NOT FINISHED. He is coming.................but for what is the question ''partial'' preterists asks.
The ''Full'' or "Hyper'' preterist camp claim he came back and all is done. Most consider this position ''heretical''. I agree.
In true preterism this is not the case.
They believe in the Olivet discouse in Mat 24......describes what happend to the temple and people in 60AD. Note Jesus talking about ''this generation''.........But he is still coming back for the judgements and to finish his course.
The HOPE is still THE HOPE! When he comes, he comes. And we will be there for it all.
It's just not with all the ''rapture'', 7 year tribulation hoopla.
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Carl Smuda
Bliss,
it's nice to know that. thank you for the clarification. that what you said has a ring of sound doctrine to it. as far as something we might call 'sound Christian doctrine.' I don't see any other way to explain the "this generation" condition in the Gospels.
Carl
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Jbarrax
This is a fascinating topic. One of the biggest turnarounds in my perspective on the Bible happened a few years ago when I began to read the Scripture from the perspective of its original audience, as Steve has done (Welcome SteveIam).
My conclusion was similar. Much of the NT is based on the belief and expectation that Jesus would return for THEM. The verses cited in Matthew 24 and Revelation chapter one are some of the clearest, but this thread runs throughout the NT, even the Pauline epistles.
Romans chapter 1:18 for example, says "For the wrath of God is reaveled from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness."
Not the wrath of God shall be revealed, he said IS revealed. Paul believed that God's wrath and judgement were either ongoing or imminent. This belief is also the undercurrent of Romans 8:13, which doesn't hold true to fact unless one views it as a statement made in anticipation of Christ's speedy return.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. But if ye, through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Now if we think of this as TWI and most Fundies do and read ourselves and our times into this verse, it is simply not true. We know PLENTY of people, some in our former associaton who lived after the flesh and are still foggin' the mirror. And there are those who lived godly lives and are deceased. So the verse, as written, cannot be believed literally. But if we remember 1:18, and consider the possiblitiy that Paul was expecting Christ to return any day and wipe out the unbelieving and evil and save the just, a whole new meaning surfaces. I think Paul wrote this verse believing that Jesus would come back and judge the Church and the world and only spare the righteous. The same connotation can be clearly seen in throughout the book of Hebrews, beginning in chapter 2 ("How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?"). Here are a few snippets.
Hebrews 10:23 - 31 speaks in strong language of judgment on God's people for failing to believe until the end. The end was expected and referred to as visibly imminent.
Sobering stuff. This is not the cheery hopeful expecation we learned in TWITville, in which everybody gets eternal rewards. The exhortation to hold on for a promised deliverance becomes moe intense in the following verses. Again, the context is an expectation that Christ would return quickly, "in a little while". "He...will not tarry". And when he arrives, those who didn't live righteously right up until the end are not going to be greeted with open arms and Cheezits.
"Draw back unto perdition" connotes a failure of faithfulness resulting in destruction. The context sets this in contrast to the following phrase referring to believing and salvation. The phrase "...believe to the saving of the soul" implies that salvation is achieved not by believing one time, but believing for a lifetime. I know this contradicts what we were taught about salvation by grace and all that, but these verses must be in here for a reason.
I have grappled with them for several years and the most logical conclusion seems to me that the NT writers expected a speedy return of Christ, resulting in salvation for the faithful and judgment for the unfaithful. I don't know much about preterism, but I can see the foundation of it in passages like these. This of course raises a ginormous doctrinal dilemma. If these Apostles and Prophets were right, Jesus should have been here years ago, centuries ago, milennia ago! So I guess the preterists assume that the Apostles were right and Jesus really did come back and judge the earth. He just decided not to stick around.
While I can see the basis for the doctrine, I find hard to believe that Jesus Christ has already come back and judged the earth, in fulfilment of all the prophecies of the book of Revelation. If that is the case, and this belief is based on an acceptance of these Biblical prophecies as sound and true, then we are to assume that we are living either in the thousand year Kingdom or the new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteouosness.
I cannot accept the latter, but the former is possible.
I Corinthians 15 speaks of the Kingdom of Christ as a heavenly one, not an earthly kingdom. This of course agrees with Jesus' testimony before the Pilate and the High Priest that his kingdom was not of this world. A comparative reading of Acts 2:30-35 and I Corinthians 15: 23 - 28 indicates that the promised reign of the Messiah began with the Ascension and will continue, not as a period of perfect peace on earth, as Revelation predicts, but a time of struggle during which the Lord's enemies will be eventually vanquished.
"Until I make thy foes thy footstool" means 'until I defeat your enemies and humble them under your feet. So according to Peter's interpretation of David's prophecy, when Jesus Christ was taken up into heaven, God seated him at the right hand of his throne (witnessed by Stephen just before he was martyred). Christ is to remain there, seated at God's right hand until God defeats his enemies. Again, this implies that the advent of the Kingdom of Christ did not automatically defeat the evil and banish wickedness from the land, as we have been lead to believe. Rather it is the beginning of a struggle, the END of which, will bring the end of evil on the earth. I Corinthians 15:24 - 28 is more specific about this chain of events.
katargeo is most often translated "destroy", "do away with" or "abolish". To put down rule in this passage does not mean to lay down as one lays down a hat on a bed. The end comes when the Father has abolished all rule and authority and power that is in oppositon to the Kingdom of His Son!
So putting I Corinthians and Acts together seems to tell us that the Kingdom of Christ is not the earthly kingdom of Revelaton, but a heavenly Kingdom given to him by God Almighty who is working to subdue its enemies. When those enemies are put down, Jesus Kingdom will come to an end and he will turn the throne over to God himself. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. This is the most intriguing aspect of this interpretation.
Rather than looking forward to the return of Christ to abolish death, these passages indicate that it will be the opposite. The abolition of death is what will trigger the end of Christ's Kingdom and the end of this age. Then comes the gathering together.
Putting the gathering together after the end of the struggles between God and Satan (the enemies of the Kingdom) also clears up some apparent contradictions between the chronologies of I Corinthians 15 and I thessalonians 4 and 5, but that's a topic for another thread.
Peace y'all
JerryB
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Carl Smuda
JerryB,
great post. I studied it closely and followed it through. Good, yes. You may be aware of this but I can't pass up the chance to remind everyone: Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT scripture in the NT.
and this fact, I think, really sets your post on one seriously unmovable Rock!He must Reign until all enemies are His footstool. Upon this Rock shall He build His church. The very gates of Hell cannot prevail against it!
and if the preterists are correct, then it may be as you say,
. and this makes the Parousia Postmillennial does it not? And postmillennialism was very popular in the U.S. until WWI. Remember, Christians in the colonies believed that North America was the location of the New Jerusalem 200 years before the Latter-Day-Saints made it one of their doctrines.In closing, Albert Schweitzer was a blessing to me for study. He helped me see that all the endtime prophecies of the primitive Christians was completely in the context of ancient Jewish eschatology. There must come a Messianic Kingdom. Jesus was to bring that when He came back. Now, if He came back in 70AD as the Preterists tell us, then where is that Kingdom? We are living in it now, maybe not me but somebody.
respectfully,
Car
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Jbarrax
Quite right Carl. If we are living in the "thousand year" kingdom, the parousia is postmillenial. The obvious problem there is that the Kingdom began well over 1,000 years ago. I don't think its much of a stretch to interpret the phrase a thousand years as a figure of speech referring to a very, very long time. It may be two, three, or ten thousand years before the time of this age if fulfilled.
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Carl Smuda
So then, doesn't this open us up to all kinds of fun? Theonomy, Reconstructionism, Dominion Theology, and the like?
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bliss
You guys would really enjoy it over on www.theologyweb.com
You can get into all this stuff with very well educated and ''deep thinking'' persons.......... :unsure:
I enjoy it very much.
I also recomend, as I said before, on the ''orthodox preterist'' study
www.preteristsite.com
bless
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Jbarrax
Thanks Bliss. I've bookmarked the Preterist debate website and intend to study it in the days to come. I still have lots of questions about this topic and Im not really expecting to find a single theology that pulls all the Scriptural threads together into a tidy package.
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irisheyes
Jerry, We have been studying Revelation at church this year and it's taken on a totally different look to me. I will look up more on preterist, but one thing I must agree on is the insight of faithfulness. Revelations biggest message at that time was to these poor Christians being persecuted. It is telling them in so many ways to hang in there, this persecution won't last forever. You may not live to see the end of it (just like the guys in Hebrews didn't), but God has that sown up for you. You'll wind up with the Lord in heaven. One of the historic things brought up was that the way most see the book of Revelation today was started around the end of the 1800's. Before that it was taken for what it was, an apocolyptic writing. Lots of symbolism. However, that symbolism meant something to those people alive at that time. I just never looked at Revelation as a comfort, but after sitting through this study, my views are dramatically changing.
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Belle
:o But, but.... but..... you mean it's okay to get on the internet?? It's okay to question things, read stuff put out by someone other than TWI? You mean we can actually learn something from someone who might not believe every single thing exactly the way we do??
:P Isn't it great to have the freedom to question things - learn new things and talk about it with all kinds of folks with so much knowledge and to have access to resources so much more vast than anything TWI ever provided?
I'm just amazed at all that's out there and how very limited our knowledge was in TWI - yet how friggin' arrogant and egotistical we were - knowledge puffeth up but we didn't even have any knowledge to be puffed up about! LOL!
Thanks for the links, Bliss.
Thanks for the comments on this thread, too. I haven't posted but have been enjoying reading. Jerry, I always learn from you. Thanks for sharing, y'all.
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Sunesis
I must respectfully disagree about Preterism, although I once thought it was the correct view. I'll list why I disagree with it.
1. The doctrine of Preterism is a Jesuit invention, whose goal was protecting the Catholic church and the Pope from the visions in Revelation (i.e., the "beast" is Rome, the woman who rides the beast, the harlot is the Catholic church, etc.).
2. Preterists believe that ALL prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. They generally believe that all of the prophecies relating to the end-times were fulfilled spiritually circa AD 70.
Result, they accept the OT prophecies as literal and true, yet "spiritualize" Revelation. Even though Revelation is the literal fulfillment of the OT prophecies, to have the doctrine of Preterism stand, everything in Revelation is now a spiritual allegory, nothing to be taken literally, no prophecies fulfilled.
For example, Preterism spiritualizes all passages of scripture in the New Testament that relate to the nation of Israel and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel". They teach that the "old earth", which scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and earth, they say, is the New Covenant and the "elements" which scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law." (Does this mean the 10 Commandments are now defunct?)
Preterism can produce some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity - instead of the peace under Christ's rule, and superabundance of the earth, all tears wiped away, no more pain and sorrow, etc., that is found in Revelation. Does the description of earth in Rev 21-22 even come close to the state of the world today?
4. Revelation was most likely NOT written during the persecutions of Nero, but near the end of the century, 30 years after Nero.
There are many reasons for this, but I'll hit on a couple of the most common, although there are many more. First, the church was already in error. When we read about the 7 churches in Rev. we see that Ephesus had "lost its first love." Smyrna had those who belonged to "the synagogue of Satan." Pergamos had not only Nicolaitanes, but those who held "the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of Israel," etc.
All of the Churches were already in a state of decline from what they were when Paul wrote his Epistles to some of them - this takes time.
Second, according to the early "church fathers," with few exceptions, they are unanimous in ascribing the exile of John, and the writing of the Apocalypse, to the time of Domitian. Irenaeus, Victorinus, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Jerome, etc. They all wrote that John was the prophet who was banished under Domitian (30 years after Nero) and had the great Revelation.
4. For Revelation to have occurred in AD 70 - and all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, then you must then ask:
When was the Gospel preached to all the nations (notwithstanding LCM's entering into the promised land)?
When was the Mark of the Beast implemented?
When were the two witnesses killed in front of the entire earth, their deaths rejoiced over by the world, then raised after 3 days?
What about the King of the East’s (China?) 200 million man army?
When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky?
When did the world's water turn to blood? ("as they have spilled the blood of the prophets, let them drink blood")
When did the Euphrates dry up?
Why did we have a rebirth of Israel - again?
If Jerusalem was forever removed in 70 A.D., why is it back?
Where is the new heaven new earth?
Where is the great white throne?
When did all mankind see Christ returning with his saints and wail and try and hide themselves?
Where is the new Jerusalem come down to earth?
When did Christ return in total Glory for all to see?
Where is Christ who rules the earth from Jeruselem?
Where is the no more sorrow and tears?
It goes on and on.
Thus, while Preterism does a good job of absolving the Catholic church from any possiblity of being the "Babylon Mystery Religion" to come, and is an interesting theory, I do not believe it true.
Just my 2 Cents. I know many will disagree.
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Sunesis
You summed up my questions. Good job.
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bliss
Hi Sunesis!
I totally understand your questions......or disagreements.................
that is why it is important to look into which ''preterism'' you are talking about.
Most of your concerns are from the ''hyper, or full preterists'' belief camp.
They are known to many in the orthodox Christian circles as heretics! No, Jesus is not finished!
It's about semantics if I can say that without gagging.............
please read up on this here
http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/warrensemantics.html
Please let me know what you think of it.
bless
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Sunesis
Bliss - anyone with Xena - Warrior Queen! on the page is a friend of mine :)
I thought it was a very good article. I can understand his feelings re semantics, and I think he feels Preterism - the more moderate version which does not believe all has happened, has been hijacked and people think of hyperpreterism when they think of Preterism.
I think many Christians have many differing views on how the world/and we, arrive at the events in the Book of Revelation. Also, for example, the 7 churches in Revelation - some think it shows the many different types and varieties of churches now - one of them described may fit your church, or, others think its a historical/chronological history of the church through the ages and we're in the last one, the Laodicean one, now, others think...
What ever one believes, I think one must keep in mind, the bible is a book of prophecy, who's center is Christ.
I think if one realizes these 3 simple things, then whatever else they choose to believe is great. The 3 things are:
1. The OT prophecizes the redeemer to come - Christ. Christ is shown as the suffering, perfect sacrificial lamb (which came to pass and was fulfilled when he was condemned to death (sacrificed) by the High Priest Pilate), and shown as the one coming back in Glory. There were two aspects to him. The priests were looking for the Ruler/Glorious one and overlooked the meek sacrificial lamb who's blood had to be shed for all.
2. In the NT - He came to the earth from above, he was "God with us," he was sacrified, risen and is now preparing a place for us in heaven. He will return in the air for us (does not come to earth).
3. Revelation - The glorified Christ rises and judgment of the Gentiles and Jews commences. He returns with his own to earth and rules and restores order.
Without the Book of Revelation, there is no ending to the story that began in Genesis. Without an end to the story, there is no hope for mankind.
Its interesting, because even if we don't understand all of the Book of Revelation, Christ does say, blessed are those who read it.
There's a special blessing to those who read it. He doesn't say you have to understand it, just read it.
At the end, he tells us, it is written for the church. In it, the Glorious Messiah/Christ is revealed in all his full glory. It is our Hope (Christ) revealed.
Thus, I do not believe this all happened in AD 70 or a bit beyond - we do not have our new bodies and are not with our Lord, with him in our new bodies, as a new creation, unlike any ever seen before, like as a bride never to be separated from him.
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bliss
Ha Ha ! I like Xena too.........the author and moderator of that site is a female. Her name is Dee Dee Warren.
What's even funnier is that just last night, my husband was going over possible baby names (i am with child) and one was ''Z'' ena....
He said it meant ''large breasts".. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!
I don't think we'll be using that one............
I agree with most of your conclusions. Christ is the center, beginning and the end. I guess it's just the ''how'' of the ''what'' many disagree on.
No matter. I never put myself in any camp anymore.
I really try to allow God to direct me, whether it is mainstream or popular. Not follow man or creed.
I am ok with that finally.
:)
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Sunesis
Yes, definitely tell hubby - no Zena!
I agree, its a great feeling just kind of going with the flow (or Spirit) and ending up where it leads.
I left TWI and explored, looked at this and that, thought this was right, then changed my mind - it took time, but I really believe as we are not afraid to explore all possibilities and hold to that which is good, as you look back, you can see how God has led you and taught you.
God is vastly varied and wants us to know his varied and manifold wisdom (Eph.). I think it would be weird, robotic and awful if we all thought the same way and believed the exact same thing.
I guess now, I fall into the rapture, pre-trib, futurist gang :) But that was after I was a universalist, preterist, mid-trib, then post-trib.
I guess my point is, it takes time to study things, then you learn about another topic - and well, how do these fit together? All of them are fascinating, but I think the Spirit will lead you into truth in his own way with each person individually.
Xena would still be kind of a cool name, don't you think? :)
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