In His Image and a Living Soul; with His word to understand and know Him! Born Again of His Spirit! Awesome! To be able Live now and throughout eternity; Is it any wonder that we need a lifetime to grasp, appreciate and somewhat understand all that God has given us? We were so awesomely made that no man throughout all the ages yet can understand it all!
Sirg, no doubt the body is looking at dust and the mind looks at the body and thoughts look at the mind and what it's thinking, and more higher thoughts are checking out those thoughts. Continuing to an ever widening circle of understanding and enlightenment as it's all being processed and realized.
cman, your question (and this thread) reminds me of (at least) this section from the letter to the Ephesians 3...
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
i cant help but notice that this section is describing a deeply contemplative position..and/or the results of a lifestyle of contemplation
...something which most modern mainstream bibledom is unfamiliar with ... and oftentimes taught to be downright fearful of
yet, without some sort of regular contemplative type activity in life...we are much less able to dislodge our sense of self from objects
...such as bodies, feelings, thoughts, possessions, objectified others, etc...
like taking steps backward without moving your body...following that path of wider, longer, deeper, higher subjective comprehension
...relaxing backwards into your deeper self ... layer by layer by layer til we are indeed at a place that is quite easily described as beyond thought ..yet sees
it seems quite clear to me that phrases like "Abraham's rest" and "the Witness" are based on such experiences
we are "caught up into heaven" but not because our body has moved..but because the seat from which we view our body has
that "seat" from where one views creation is no longer on the surface of self...or even hidden/buried/lost in the shadows of our inward self
but is rather "rooted and grounded" in that radical nested feminine motherly agape love ... were she broods on the face of the deep like a dove ...
what would it be like to view the universe from Genesis 1?
and what if Genesis 1 is always already still occuring within each of us?
...
hm..i just came across this older thread on Inward Paths that found some decent traction
Som and Wrds and Wrks had some insight on this I believe.
I will send her a pm and see if she has any insight, but I believe SOM had some really big insight on WHO we are.
Great topic
Hi, Cman and SirGuess, If I'm following what you're saying that the real "you" is not your body or mind but it's an eternal spirit, created in the image and likeness of God.
If I'm following what you're saying that the real "you" is not your body or mind but it's an eternal spirit, created in the image and likeness of God.
yeah...that's a part of one very good way to put it
in my experience and opinion, the bible is as much about discovering one's own identity, ego, self and "the real you/me/us"
as it is about "knowing the truth" about a mythic/rational/theoretical God (or Jesus or angels or demons, etc...)
i would even go as far as to say that those 2 sections in proverbs and psalms touch an even smaller part of it all
...a very important and initial peek through a very tiny keyhole
and in this sense...the "presence of the spirit of God" is NOT an object that comes and goes...but a subject that is already always right here right now in us
...and a subjective position that we can and do wake up to in stages ... though we can also sleepwalk in Spirit all our life, like a fish who does not know it is wet
which is part of why i have come to appreciate and prefer practicing, talking about (and pointing to) a very direct experience of a constant present God,
more than talking about a God who exists at some distance, or in some past, or in some future, or as some form or figure in the mind, etc...
imo, this is perhaps the most important spiritual milk that we not only lack, culturally
...but have even come to be quite suspicious of and/or hostile to
as if when we say "in God is no darkness" we actually mean "God does not exist in darkness" (?how can something be outside of an everpresent God?)
while all along we weep and gnash at the darkness outside of our self...oblivious to what hides in shadows under a thin layer of dust within
yet another way to see "who we are" ... using more of a rational language-set:
- approximate self = our general subjective position at any given point in our life...our approximate "sense of" self ... the largest portion of this self-sense as we might be summarized...allows for a lot of variables of self that are outside of this portion (such as having higher intelligence and lower morals, or low charisma and high morals, etc...)
- distant self - the subject that has become an object... such as when we talk about our selves in the past, or as a body, an emotion, a thought, a dream, etc.... ("carnal self," etc)
- antecedent self - the witness and ground of all subjects, objects, actions, memories, etc...the ineffable experiencer of every sense of self ("Godhead" etc)
- shadow - the part of the self we cant see, wont look at, are addicted to, project outward, or have somehow forgotten ("the Devil" etc)
...perhaps the most important self of them all to address (for the sake of our poor neighbors...but also for positive reasons)
note: each of these "corners" of the altar of self are developing (or not) along a chain of many steps
...and depths and degrees of self vary wildly, though we tend to be attracted to friends and enemies who are alike or somehow support our current approximate position
.....
heerza cool animated music video that touches a lot of this kinda stuff: "Dig" by Incubus
i remember when my son was about 4 years old and in daycare. something happened one day that really upset him (i can't remember what), but he came home and told me about it, and he said to me, "I said in my head, mommy, help." my heart like twisted in all kinds of ways and i thought about how he felt i was part of him and he could talk to me inside himself....
i remember when my son was about 4 years old and in daycare. something happened one day that really upset him (i can't remember what), but he came home and told me about it, and he said to me, "I said in my head, mommy, help." my heart like twisted in all kinds of ways and i thought about how he felt i was part of him and he could talk to me inside himself....
In the video, does the guy die? It looks like there's blood all around him after the girl gets into his brain. And the lyrics say "we'll have each other when everything else is gone". Everything ... like ... life? If there is no life, then what?
I thought it was sorta eerie. It left me questioning the meaning.
Had I not watched it in the context of this thread, my interpretation would have been this:
In a relationship, if one person digs so deep to find every detail of the mechanism that runs the other person ... then the other person essentially dies. He has no identity of his own any more. He is just a head - has no body, no movement, no drive. And then the mystery of partnering with another spirit, the intimacy of connection without absorption ... becomes impossible ... because one has invaded the other and plundered his soul.
It's like in the classic wedding vows - "to HAVE and to hold". Not a good idea, to HAVE someone else. And that's what the lyrics said: "we'll HAVE each other", followed by "when everything else is gone".
Sorry. I'm very visual in my thinking, and I didn't like the concept of one person digging into someone else's brain.
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Abigail
A good thing to keep in mind when we have the urge to write a hurtful reply to a post or say hurtful things about another person!! :)
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cman
Yes Abigail, very true.
I do believe that whoever we are is up there with the Lord God.
Right here, right now.
Here in the heavens and earth.
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RainbowsGirl
In His Image and a Living Soul; with His word to understand and know Him! Born Again of His Spirit! Awesome! To be able Live now and throughout eternity; Is it any wonder that we need a lifetime to grasp, appreciate and somewhat understand all that God has given us? We were so awesomely made that no man throughout all the ages yet can understand it all!
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sirguessalot
nice one, cman
here it is again...
who are we?
we have a body, but are we our body?
if so, who is Witnessing our body?
if I AM witnessing my body, how can i merely be my body?
are we our thoughts?
if so, who is Witnessing our thoughts?
if I AM witnessing my thoughts, how can i merely be my thoughts?
likewise...
are we our emotions?
are we our memories?
are we our dreams?
if so, who is Witnessing all these things?
who is this invisible Witness of all things?
if i find a self that has form...i must ask again...who is the Witness of this me i have found?
right here..right now
"I AM" is one of the very oldest answers...when we see from "the other side of God's face" as Abraham might say
"oh my God, you must be kidding" is a common response
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waterbuffalo
Sirguessalot,
Hi. Interesting post.
I'm reading the first book you recommended in chat. It's good. The one I had read was Keating's Intimacy with God about contemplative meditation.
Thanks for the recommendation!
Have you read Radical Acceptance? If so, do you recommend it?
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sirguessalot
hi WB.
no, I havent read that one. But I am somewhat familiar with the term "radical acceptance," the author's colleagues and their practices.
btw..what i posted previously is my own off-the-cuff improv version of what is known as "pointing out instructions"
...which is basically a process for self-inquiry based on what i have come to understand as being very very old art forms
interesting to see how it might relate to those Genesis passages cman posted
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sirguessalot
perhaps another way to point it out using cman's selection
....
who are we?
i am aware of being the body of a man now, having been formed of the dust and the clay...
...but if we are aware of it...then who are we? where are we?
i am aware of the breath of life that moves through my nostrils, my lungs, my blood....
...but if we are aware of this...then who are we? where are we?
i am aware of the masculine and feminine energies and realities that make up my self, languages, physics...
...but if we are aware of this...then who are we? where are we?
i am aware of that i am created in the imagination of God, as the imagination of God...
...but if we are aware of this...then who are we? when are we?
if I AM the witness of my body of dust...
if I AM the witness of my breath of life...
if I AM the witness of my imagination of God...
...who is this witness i cannot find?
...what is this witness made of?
...and where is this witness located RIGHT NOW as i read this page?
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cman
Sirg, no doubt the body is looking at dust and the mind looks at the body and thoughts look at the mind and what it's thinking, and more higher thoughts are checking out those thoughts. Continuing to an ever widening circle of understanding and enlightenment as it's all being processed and realized.
How deep into the universe can we till?
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sirguessalot
cman, your question (and this thread) reminds me of (at least) this section from the letter to the Ephesians 3...
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
i cant help but notice that this section is describing a deeply contemplative position..and/or the results of a lifestyle of contemplation
...something which most modern mainstream bibledom is unfamiliar with ... and oftentimes taught to be downright fearful of
yet, without some sort of regular contemplative type activity in life...we are much less able to dislodge our sense of self from objects
...such as bodies, feelings, thoughts, possessions, objectified others, etc...
like taking steps backward without moving your body...following that path of wider, longer, deeper, higher subjective comprehension
...relaxing backwards into your deeper self ... layer by layer by layer til we are indeed at a place that is quite easily described as beyond thought ..yet sees
it seems quite clear to me that phrases like "Abraham's rest" and "the Witness" are based on such experiences
we are "caught up into heaven" but not because our body has moved..but because the seat from which we view our body has
that "seat" from where one views creation is no longer on the surface of self...or even hidden/buried/lost in the shadows of our inward self
but is rather "rooted and grounded" in that radical nested feminine motherly agape love ... were she broods on the face of the deep like a dove ...
what would it be like to view the universe from Genesis 1?
and what if Genesis 1 is always already still occuring within each of us?
...
hm..i just came across this older thread on Inward Paths that found some decent traction
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cman
Thanks sirg, i needed that and this post...........
how we should help each other is a lost art sometimes
then we get it again seeing how we have been helped
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sirguessalot
more contemplative scriptures
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD,
searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Psalms 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle:
the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
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excathedra
i haven't read anything else, but i will, but for now i gotta' go
i did want to say the above made me weep
love,
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Dot Matrix
Cman
Som and Wrds and Wrks had some insight on this I believe.
I will send her a pm and see if she has any insight, but I believe SOM had some really big insight on WHO we are.
Great topic
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wrdsandwrks
Hi, Cman and SirGuess, If I'm following what you're saying that the real "you" is not your body or mind but it's an eternal spirit, created in the image and likeness of God.
Those two verses really express it well...
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sirguessalot
yeah...that's a part of one very good way to put it
in my experience and opinion, the bible is as much about discovering one's own identity, ego, self and "the real you/me/us"
as it is about "knowing the truth" about a mythic/rational/theoretical God (or Jesus or angels or demons, etc...)
i would even go as far as to say that those 2 sections in proverbs and psalms touch an even smaller part of it all
...a very important and initial peek through a very tiny keyhole
and in this sense...the "presence of the spirit of God" is NOT an object that comes and goes...but a subject that is already always right here right now in us
...and a subjective position that we can and do wake up to in stages ... though we can also sleepwalk in Spirit all our life, like a fish who does not know it is wet
which is part of why i have come to appreciate and prefer practicing, talking about (and pointing to) a very direct experience of a constant present God,
more than talking about a God who exists at some distance, or in some past, or in some future, or as some form or figure in the mind, etc...
imo, this is perhaps the most important spiritual milk that we not only lack, culturally
...but have even come to be quite suspicious of and/or hostile to
as if when we say "in God is no darkness" we actually mean "God does not exist in darkness" (?how can something be outside of an everpresent God?)
while all along we weep and gnash at the darkness outside of our self...oblivious to what hides in shadows under a thin layer of dust within
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sirguessalot
yet another way to see "who we are" ... using more of a rational language-set:
- approximate self = our general subjective position at any given point in our life...our approximate "sense of" self ... the largest portion of this self-sense as we might be summarized...allows for a lot of variables of self that are outside of this portion (such as having higher intelligence and lower morals, or low charisma and high morals, etc...)
- distant self - the subject that has become an object... such as when we talk about our selves in the past, or as a body, an emotion, a thought, a dream, etc.... ("carnal self," etc)
- antecedent self - the witness and ground of all subjects, objects, actions, memories, etc...the ineffable experiencer of every sense of self ("Godhead" etc)
- shadow - the part of the self we cant see, wont look at, are addicted to, project outward, or have somehow forgotten ("the Devil" etc)
...perhaps the most important self of them all to address (for the sake of our poor neighbors...but also for positive reasons)
note: each of these "corners" of the altar of self are developing (or not) along a chain of many steps
...and depths and degrees of self vary wildly, though we tend to be attracted to friends and enemies who are alike or somehow support our current approximate position
.....
heerza cool animated music video that touches a lot of this kinda stuff: "Dig" by Incubus
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excathedra
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cman
don't know what i can say more...
the inner path to the inner man
been right there all along...many paths...
a power greater then ourselves is within ourselves
all over the bible and life and writings of many
all in all, i mean to practically see and do something with it
it's evidenced in ourselves
in seeing the wind within, one can ride it
they have all one breath
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excathedra
i remember when my son was about 4 years old and in daycare. something happened one day that really upset him (i can't remember what), but he came home and told me about it, and he said to me, "I said in my head, mommy, help." my heart like twisted in all kinds of ways and i thought about how he felt i was part of him and he could talk to me inside himself....
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sirguessalot
wow
thats a real gem
reminds me of that video, too
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Shifra
Sir Guess,
In the video, does the guy die? It looks like there's blood all around him after the girl gets into his brain. And the lyrics say "we'll have each other when everything else is gone". Everything ... like ... life? If there is no life, then what?
I thought it was sorta eerie. It left me questioning the meaning.
Had I not watched it in the context of this thread, my interpretation would have been this:
In a relationship, if one person digs so deep to find every detail of the mechanism that runs the other person ... then the other person essentially dies. He has no identity of his own any more. He is just a head - has no body, no movement, no drive. And then the mystery of partnering with another spirit, the intimacy of connection without absorption ... becomes impossible ... because one has invaded the other and plundered his soul.
It's like in the classic wedding vows - "to HAVE and to hold". Not a good idea, to HAVE someone else. And that's what the lyrics said: "we'll HAVE each other", followed by "when everything else is gone".
Sorry. I'm very visual in my thinking, and I didn't like the concept of one person digging into someone else's brain.
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sirguessalot
hi Shifra
yeah...i think i really get what yer saying about one-way fusions in relationships
tho i dont think that is what the musicians/artist are trying to say at all
'comraderie' is a word the band used to (lightly) describe the reason for the song
and they seem very much open to people finding their own meanings
imho, the metaphors are quite rich and appropriate...offering many layers of meaning and interpretation
especially as it pertains to the nature of the interior self, friendships and ego-trips and such
but sadly...i think my days of trying to converse via message boards like this is coming to a close
so plz forgive if i fade away from the thread
in waves...
+ODD
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sky4it
Who are we?
We are Debo, are we not men?
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cman
who are we
who am i
i am
who is i am
from looking at me
from looking at us
from looking at why
from looking at where
from looking at purpose
from looking at reason
....................
i'm looking at me looking at me looking at me
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