You can take the person out of TWI, but can you take TWI out of the person?

[newlife]

I've been out for 20 years now.......I've been trying over those 20 years to change beliefs, some of which I have, but After trying church after church, working at a place to help the homeless...doing christian music, even playing in a band...I found that I can not "fit in" with most of those places I have been......and ended up drawing back from all those to ponder what I should do.

Where that has taken me is back to a fellowship, one of the offshoots, where I really am disappointed cause I feel like, "well here I go again". Another gal who also went back to the fellowship said, where else are you gonna go......and I have no answer for that, since I've tried so many different things and different places.

It's pretty frustrating and I am wondering if any of you have experience this complete circle that I have just experienced.

I remember when I first left, that we would joke, if you can take the person out of TWI, can you take the TWI out of the person??? It's not a joke to me any more.

Any wisdom out there from you all?????

Thanks!!

[johniam]

Wisdom? Let me show you my portfolio.

Seriously, I've been out for about 13 years. I've been to fellowships from 4 offshoots, several churches, and even fellowships where people who had no affiliation with any offshoots got together just to fellowship. I even fit in one of the churches pretty good, but I, like you seem, had been in twi for years and just got comfortable with a lot of how twi fellowships are/were.

One personal barometer of mine has always been that I knew any fellowship was right for me if I consistently heard things in the fellowship that spoke to my heart; things I "needed to hear". It could be in the comments made between songs, the manifestations, the teaching itself, it could come from anywhere, just as long as it came.

Don't give up, newlife. Just relax and go where it's convenient for you to go and ask God for His help, of course, and it probably won't take long for you to find something that suits you. If the offshoot fellowship you're in really isn't cutting it, then you should move on, but please don't give up.

Edited September 5, 2007 by johniam

[newlife]

Gosh Thanks soooo Much for your response. That was a God deal right there.....I was in a lot of pain when I posted, and reading what you wrote helped me so much. It was encouraging.....THANK-YOU!!!

[WordWolf]

Of course, God can reach you among ANY group of Christians, so don't dismiss the idea that

Christians who aren't ex-twi can't be the ones you need, either....

[Mister P-Mosh]

It could also be that you are most used to TWI, and have been seeking out somewhere like it. It sometimes is like how a woman that is married to a man that hits her for 15 years ends up leaving him -- only to find a new guy to hit her. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but I would definitely consider it and decide if what you are looking for is what is actually the best for your life, or if you are seeking out something to make you comfortable. Having HFCs and Corps make minute decisions for you in your life is easy, and for some comforting. However, it's not what is best for your life. Think about what values or properties that you are looking for, and decide if they are good for you or not and go from there. There probably are home fellowship groups out there that are good, but if you're going into another TWI then you have a problem.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

newlife...I also have been out for 20 years and during that time, I checked out a lot of different churches and "Christian" organizations...

My conclusion that I am happy and content with?...

...I have decided that my "affiliation" is with God and His son...I am learning not to think in terms of churches or organizations but in terms of relationships.

Relationships with God, His son, other people...I have learned how to recognize the spirit of God within people that I meet in my daily life and have decided that church isn't something that I attend but it's something that I am...it's something that I am a member in particular of...I don't hand out pamphlets, recruit people for classes, invite them to church or fellowships...I get involved in people's lives and I love them with the Christ that is within my heart...

...many times people misunderstand me because I am not religious...sometimes I drink too much beer and use cuss words...but in my heart, I know who my Father is and I walk through this life with that confidence. It's not the group we affiliate with but what's in our hearts and how we live...if we love people and if we care and give, our lives become richer.

But don't we need fellowship with likeminded believers?...I don't know, do we?

I like to listen to quality Christian music and discuss God's love and grace with people, and often do...sometimes I even visit churches and enjoy what's going on...I don't like hypocracy...too many folks go to church and then live Godless lives the other 6 days...I find rituals to be somewhat unChristian and too many "ministers" approach their calling like a job rather than a lifestyle...

Jesus never formed an organization nor did he belong to one...he simply lived his life and hung out with a bunch of guys that followed him around...Jesus never told us to join a church, he told us to love one another...that's what I try to do.

[excathedra]

dear newlife, i'll say a prayer for you

i belong to nothing

although i do believe i belong to god and jesus christ

and i'm glad about that

[newlife]

Thank-you for your response and for sharing with me things that you could. I just have a lot of pain in dealing with this....I feel like I tried all these options, and still ended up almost where I started.....I really do not have a lot of hope....and I know that is just not how it should be.

I don't know how to do this thing called Christianity, without being involved with a group of christians. I really don't. And maybe I should not do anything at all.....but that just can't be the answer.

I guess this is a place I felt I could be understood and I could relate to other people. A place where I could share the pain of all this.....cause I SURE didn't start out after I left to end up where I am now....and it's so painful to be at this place in my life.

I don't mean to be a "downer" about all this.....I just wanted to "get this out" of my head and heart and maybe hear from others who have experienced this or have some suggestions......

Thank you All.......

[Belle]

What are you looking for, New Life? Why do you feel like you don't "fit in" as you put it? What do you like and not like about the churches you've been to?

How much "study" have you done since leaving TWI? Have you visited the Doctrinal Booth here at the cafe?

What do you feel about TWI-like fellowships that you don't find anywhere else?

Those kinds of things might be able to help us help you better. :)

Have you maybe tried looking at www.meetup.com to see if perhaps there's a group in your area that's not really a "church" per se but who subscribe to or are interested in the same topics as you?

[excathedra]

i'm sad about your pain

i know this sounds odd maybe, but i have hope

and i'm also hoping for your happiness

from my heart

i'm glad belle offered you advice

i 'm sorry i haven't

but i hope god will guide you and ease your pain

[now I see]

This thread brings up a question I've been toying with lately, does the model of fellowship with the believers in the book of Acts apply to today, and what exactly was that model? Is it different than what TWI legislated? What does the bible say? Scriptures anyone??

Was the model what we saw in the early days in California and New York? Did those fellowships work just for that period of time because of the Jesus movement, is it not possible to walk with God and others to that degree of effectiveness today?

Or are ex-wayers like the children of Isreal in the desert, does the whole generation have to die off before there's another organic movement of His Word?

Has anyone else pondered these questions?

[newlife]

Thanks Everyone for your input......I have appreciated it. I think I know what my pain stemmed from now......it stemmed from the idea that I had tried everything else and nothing seemed to work....finding myself in this offshoot (which by the way I am not putting them down-but it doesn't fit me) and feeling like, well this is it. You HAVE to stay here...you've run out of options......and that has produced a lot of pain for me. But, last night, I realized I can leave this group.....I don't know what that leaves me....but I don't Have to be in this group because the options have run out, even though I don't know of any more options.

Belle, Thank-you for your offer to help. I really asked myself what I have been looking for....and the only thing I could think of was a "family" and "love". But also, just having some spiritual truths that I know are true. I think the biggest block to me and churches has been the trinity. Though, I have tried to overlook it, and tried to be involved and a part of...it definitely has an affect on my relationships.....because they have a different perspective of their relationship w/God...

I have not been the greatest student of the bible since I left TWI.....but recently in the last two and a half months, when I had not been involved in anything, I started reading the bible to just see what it said.....and I've seen some things that I've not seen before.......and maybe that's why I don't think this off shoot group is for me. And I felt like, I was gonna have to believe what they believe in order to be a part of it.....Old thinking huh?

And I really miss the family aspect. Even though we had a very disfunctional family in TWI....I had some very close friends and really felt they were family to me.

I think I am rambling now......so I'll stop....Any help would be appreciated. It's hard for me to look at myself and be objective...so Thanks.

Good questions about the fellowship aspect.......is it relevant today like it was in the book of Acts. More questions to be answered. I really would hate to think that x-way people are like the people wandering around in the wilderness....but I sure feel like that a lot.

[Belle]

(((((New Life)))))

Believe it or not, the typical church may not believe in the Trinity the way that TWI taught us that they do. I know that in my Southern Baptist Church, many things vee pee and craig said we believed were flat out wrong. I'd get slammed for saying it, but I'd mutter under my breath that it was NOT what I was taught. If nothing else, than to remind myself that they were full of .... when it came to telling us what trinitarians believe.

The trinity is also not so prominent in any of the doctrine or teachings of the Methodist Church I attend. They may very well believe it, but teachings are about God - Jesus and our personal relationships - the trinity hardly, if ever, comes up. So, if that were to be a bone of contention with me, I'd really have to go looking for it.

Another thing to consider is that just maybe it's possible to have a great fellowship, great "fit" with a church family and not necessarily agree with every single thing they teach. I run into that as well at my church. I just don't start debates, distract or become obnoxious when the discussion turns to those things. Sometimes I ask questions, sometimes I just say I'm not quite sure that's what I believe and other times I just keep my big mouth shut. (I know, hard to believe, huh? But I really do!)

You say that you haven't studied much; is it also possible that what you think you believe could be wrong? Maybe you're holding onto TWI logic and doctrines that aren't necessarily correct? That's why I asked if you've been to the Doctrinal section here. There are many different paths that folks here have taken and they could point you toward some research in the areas that interest you the most. TheInvisibleDan is a veritable encyclopedia of information on the Marcionites. Fascinating stuff! SirGuessalot has taken a totally different viewpoint and I have seen some incredibly thought-provoking questions from Shifra lately. Abigail has gone back to learning more about her Jewish roots and, let me tell you, reading her posts puts the whole Bible in a whole nother light and expanse of understanding.

I myself have read "The Celestine Prophecy", Elaine Pagels, "The Origin of Satan", the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels and some other historical books on the history of religions, Christianity, cultures and beliefs of ancient civilizations, Noetic Science and Science of Mind stuff. In the process, I've pretty much concluded that nobody has "the truth" if there is "one" absolute truth to be known. In that light, I get what I need from the various and sundry groups I have chosen to spend my time with. I have made some great friends in each group and, yet, they are extremely diverse in their own beliefs. I enjoy learning from each and every one of them.

Now, I'm the one rambling. I guess what I'm saying is, don't put yourself into a box - or try to pigeonhole, dictate or conform to what you think you should be doing and who you think you should be ..... When you take the pressure off and start doing what you want to do - studying what you want to study and looking into the questions, thoughts and things you, personally, have, you'll find that comfortable place to be. I sense some lingering TWI-brain judgmentalism against yourself and you're soooooo much more and sooooo much better than that.

[newlife]

Hi Belle,

Yes, When I read your post, I think you nailed a lot of things for me. I AM holding on to TWI logic and doctrine......

Some things I have changed in my beliefs......but a lot of it I am still holding to. And I guess the thing is maybe deep down I question them, and really think it possible they are not right, but I hold on to what I was taught.....What is it that makes me do this? I just don't know.....

Thanks!!

Hi Belle,

Yes, When I read your post, I think you nailed a lot of things for me. I AM holding on to TWI logic and doctrine......

Some things I have changed in my beliefs......but a lot of it I am still holding to. And I guess the thing is maybe deep down I question them, and really think it possible they are not right, but I hold on to what I was taught.....What is it that makes me do this? I just don't know.....

Thanks!!

[Bramble]

I think one of the reasons TWI doctrine sticks in us so much was because there was an undercurrent of fear and disaster if you didn't do or uphold the truth you were taught. Remember how the truth was handed to us on a silver platter, that we didn't strive all our lives to figure it out? How priveldged we were--what would be the spiritual ramifications and real life ones too, of walking away?

I know TWI spoke publickly against fear as negative believing...but if you walked away or copped out, what would happen to you? How about your innocent children, what would happen to them if you quit standing? Destruction, devil spirits, illness, accidents. What if you didn't listen to revelation? Or to the Man of God, or your spiritual overseer? Disaster. What if you kept certain objects around you, like a cross necklace, or angel statues? Open doors for devil spirits! Disaster!

As far as the family feeling, I saw that the most( was in for 20 yrs, from college to my forties) when we were mostly young, single and childless. Everyone did hang out together etc. The boy/girl dating aspect was exciting. Witnessing wasn't a whole lot different than flirting with cute guys at the bar.

But as the years rolled by and many married, started families, the sheer pressures of working, raising a family and doing the work of the ministry cut back those casual friendly hang out times. I suspect some of that family feeling/lifestyle was tied to our youth--if we wanted to hang out until midnight, drinking coffee and talking, cool. It is a lot different when you have kids to get to bed etc.

[newlife]

Yes---FEAR---I didn't realize I had that much until I read your post!!! Thank-you so much.....it gave a lot of enlightenment to me.......

[penworks]

Just wanted to add that I've found books by Karen Armstrong to have wonderful insights on all these issues, in particular, "The Battle for God - The History of Fundamentalism", and her memoir, "The Spiral Staircase (My Climb out of Darkness)". She was in a convent for 7 years and left to become a world-renown religious history writer. She helped me appreciate compassion being the hallmark of spirituality, not knowledge of the Bible or any other sacred text. To quote Armstrong, "...fundamentalist movements distort the [religious] tradition they are trying to defend by emphasizing the belligerent elements in their tradition and overlooking the insistent and crucial demand for compassion." (The Spiral Staircase, pg. 295). I wish you well, newlife. Look for compassion in any group you encounter. Shake off that fear like an old coat and enjoy your life!

Edited September 6, 2007 by penworks

[Biblefan Dave]

It has been 20 years since I left TWI. When I left, I knew that I couldn't continue my affiliation with TWI, in all good conscience, because of the many wrongs that the BOT were doing. Yet, I took an objective attitude toward doctrines. I did not dismiss everything I learned in TWI as being wrong.

There are some things which I simply don't know. I don't know what the original sin was. I don't know and don't really care whether Jesus died on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. The important thing is the deed, the sacrifice, not the particular day. Yes, I still don't believe in the Trinity. I still believe that the dead are not alive now.

The biggest void in leaving TWI was that loss of comraderie and the sense of purpose. I, too, have not found that sense of purpose or comraderie in any of the churches I have attended.

I do think some connection with other Christians is still important. So, I suggest, if you have to, to "fake it til you make it" to have some connection. That will help keep some the enthusiasm to read the Bible and keep that spiritual fervor toward God.

David

[sirguessalot]

big ditto on the Karen Armstrong stuff

also..i highly suggest looking into the more contemplative christian doctrines and practices ... perhaps one of the most damaging losses in the last century of industrial strength christian thought and practice...ancient jewish and first century thought was soaking wet with contemplative understanding and activity

also...interreligious and interfaith studies helps deepen christian understanding ...there have been many christians in history who have entered into fruitful dialogue (no, not "new age woo woo" stuff) with jews, muslims, buddhists, hindus, celts, physicists, etc...

all blessings...

[My3Cents]

I don't know how to do this thing called Christianity, without being involved with a group of christians. I really don't. And maybe I should not do anything at all.....but that just can't be the answer.

Why do you have to do this thing called Christianity? Why can't "not doing anything" be the answer? Does there have to be an answer?

These are questions I struggled with when I was leaving the way (in about 1986) I was a corps grad and way clergy. I had devoted my entire adult life and career since high school and college to furthering the way. I found if very helpful to question not just what I was taught but the premises that informed the teachings - even the very need for teaching. For example the way people said "Our research in the bible reveals the only true word of god" I found it useful to ask why should I believe the bible is considered the word of god and why did I even believe there is a god.

What I found was I'm much happier and live a much fuller life if I am OK with some questions that don't have an answer. Perhaps the same will be true for you. It takes guts to question things at this level.

Good luck.

[skyrider]

The biggest void in leaving TWI was that loss of comraderie and the sense of purpose. I, too, have not found that sense of purpose or comraderie in any of the churches I have attended.

When I ponder this comraderie and intense involvement with twi..........I, many times, STEP BACK and remind myself that youth and zeal run hand in hand.

Having NO wife, NO kids, NO career, NO real life responsibilities.....twi involvement begets MORE twi involvement, and I was ripe for the pickings. Once I swallowed twi's credibility as a "research, teaching and fellowship ministry".....my youthful enthusiasm embellished the spontenaity of it all.

Today, I endeavor to live MORE responsibly. To me, Christianity is not belonging to a certain group, organization, church or movement. I still think that I see thru a glass darkly......and with that, I thank God for looking on my heart and guiding my steps everyday.

:)

[bliss]

(((New Life)))

Bless your heart. I think Everyone here has felt just as you at some point.

If you love God and want to continue down that path then the one thing to start with is HIM.

PRAY, and ask Him what/where He thinks you should be. Just pray that He guides your feet in the way the He wants you to go.

Sometimes we put such emphasis on what WE want, that we miss what God has for us!

We just left a couple years ago..............got on my knees (for the first time....) and prayed that He would show me and lead me (for the first time, I'd always liked telling Him what to do).....

The rest is HIStory. :)

oh, and it helps to throw out all the bathwater, and sometimes even the baby for a little while........

That is a good way to get rid of Way Brain.

John 14:26 - the Holy Spirit shall shall teach you all things..............

[Biblefan Dave]

Believe me when I say that I am not suggesting anyone re-acquaint themselves with TWI just for the sake of comraderie and a sense of purpose.

Maybe for some people, they have the strength of conviction to maintain the connection to God and the Lord Jesus Christ without any organizational affiliation. But for me, I need some sort of sense of belonging to help encourage me to read the Bible and keep that enthusiasm toward God and Jesus.

No one has to totally buy into what any particular church teaches to fellowship with them. No one has to completely believe everything that CES or CFFM teaches either. For me, I do need INVOLVEMENT. Involvement doesn't mean mindlessly buying every doctrine hook, line, and sinker.

Definitely, people should pray to God to lead them and guide them. People can ask God to show them what would be best for their lives. There is not any one best way that everyone needs to go. No organization dominates the market for truth. I just believe that some sort of involvement is better than stumbling along alone.

David

[newlife]

I so appreciate your posts....it has helped me. It is a journey to be sure!! I really don't know exactly what to do...but I have some great suggestions from you all. It has helped to know that others are dealing with some of the same things and feelings that I am dealing with. It's frustrating though......I think I still have a lot of Way brain.....

[outintexas]

Why do you have to do this thing called Christianity? Why can't "not doing anything" be the answer? Does there have to be an answer?

What I found was I'm much happier and live a much fuller life if I am OK with some questions that don't have an answer. Perhaps the same will be true for you. It takes guts to question things at this level.

I agree totally. One of the first things I realized when I got out was that it was okay not to know. It was an odd but liberating feeling. Besides, we didn't know everything in twi anyway; we just acted like we did.