Good for you. I suppose that means that you could love Him even if that means that He might have predetermined that all of your children even before they were born would be damned to Hell. He just decided not to share that knowledge with you.
You suppose a great deal, and have supposed me a great fool.
You've also skipped over what I HAVE said on the subject, and what I agreed to just a few posts back,
saying "this reflects how I see this."
No fair. I asked you a question earlier that has yet to be answered.
I answer questions in the ORDER that suits me.
You may notice I'm going approximately in the order of the thread.
I'm also not a Calvinist, and your question largely was one of Calvinism.
I didn't answer your question in the terms you asked it-I answered it as I understood it.
When I get to your question again, I'll see if there's any other way I'd like to address it.
In the meantime, I thought we were having a DISCUSSION.
You posed a conundrum, and I offered my answer, and OFFERED TO HELP YOU BREAK THE DEADLOCK
as I understand it.
If you don't want to cooperate, that's your business, but that means you're less interested
in us all gaining in knowledge here than in "scoring points" in some fashion.
If that's your decision, then all I can say is, you're going to miss out.
Translation translation: I didn't get the answer I wanted, and I want to draw attention from
refusing to dialogue equally like WordWolf pointed out, so I'll throw out an accusation that
WW COULDN'T answer me, and insult him for posting at length.
WW I may have been born at night but, it wasn't last night. Your subtlety may fool others but your veiled insults directed towards me have not gone unnoticed.
I made a post. You followed it by responding to a post I made days ago. I stated -- If it's all the same to you I prefer you address my last post. You followed that with another post ignoring my request and when I pointed that out you gave some excuse and said you would answer it when you had more time to consider it. Instead you continued to ignore it. Now what else am I suppose to think but that perhaps you know the implication of my syllogism and to answer it would trap you in a theology that makes you uncomfortable.
I wish you wouldn't pull this on a thread with a productive discussion on this, however.
I'll remind you again -- you told me before that I don't have a right to expect people to stay on topic. You did so in a very condescending fashion. Now you're trying to imply that I'm not meeting your standard of discourse and attempting to bully me into complying with YOUR standard.
From Satan's fall to man's fall, God needs to let all of creation in the universe - angel and man - see that he is just, his judgment is just and his plans are just.
If, after Satan sinned, God had just opted to destroy him, would the other spiritual beings not start to doubt and maybe start to wonder, would not someone else step up and rebel. Instead of enduring an endless cycle of rebellion over and over, it makes more sense to let everything play out, so at the end, when all are gathered up and the kingdom is here, those inhabitants freely worship and walk with him and have no desire to leave his love.
I also read somewhere, you can think of it like this: If someone told you that you could inhabit paradise, utopia, or whatever you want to call it, where everything would be love, perfection, the heaven men dream of; would you go through 5 minutes of hurt to get there for eternity?
I.e., would you put up with some bad (man's free will to do evil) for a moment, to attain the utopia?
Basically, everyone questioned, said, of course.
What we consider a long time, is but a blip on God's timeline.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (NASB)
13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
===========
Now, how about a partial answer as to why God doesn't just smash all evildoers NOW like some masked vigilante?
Matthew 13:24-30. (NASB)
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Matthew 13:36-43. (NASB)
36Then He left the crowds and went into the house And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.
We're addressing now what may be considered a great mystery to some people, but it can become obvious when asking
the right question while looking at the right verses.
Jesus said the servants of the evil one weren't removed and destroyed NOW because there would then be a risk
to the sons of the kingdom. One might ask why there would be such a problem, since God can see who is His and who is not.
The answer is actually pretty simple.
God knows- but he relates to us not necessarily with all He knows about us, but only what we have done up to the present.
Some people, at different times, whether through foolish choices, horrible events, or the malignant intent of others,
can SEEM to freely choose to serve the evil one- at least for a time.
If a sudden judgement was upon us at that time, we would have no time to reform, to turn and walk the paths of
righteousness, to serve God.
If a sudden judgement was upon us and reflected our later decisions, it would be unfair, since it was based on what we
haven't DONE yet. (It would be like being jailed for a FUTURE crime when you haven't even CONSIDERED committing
a crime...)
Some of us children of God have traveled harder paths, traveled darker paths. God allowed us to turn to Him when WE
were ready, and did not "rush" us. God's allowed us to leave those paths on our own time, and did not render a
summary judgement BEFOREtime.
God operates on GOD's schedule, which is often FAR too slow for our tastes, especially in the era of microwaved foods,
airplane travel, overnight mail, and e-mail. However, He operates on a schedule with more than our whims taken into
account. ALL is taken into account, eventually.
Once it IS taken into account, things will be different.
Revelation 21:1-4 (NASB)
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.
WW I may have been born at night but, it wasn't last night. Your subtlety may fool others but your veiled insults directed towards me have not gone unnoticed.
You know,
if you were less eager to insult me, you might be less eager to perceive insult WHERE NONE WAS OFFERED.
I made a post. You followed it by responding to a post I made days ago.
I'm going largely from the front of the thread to the back, with pauses for what I consider are germane posts on this thread.
So, I'm responding to MOST posts from days ago.
I don't see anyone else perceiving insult in this.
But it's particular with you.
I stated -- If it's all the same to you I prefer you address my last post.
And I was writing a pair of very long posts, and didn't LOOK for your post while I was posting them both.
This may surprise you, but when I post here, it's often to say something, and often that's not necessarily something
YOU find a benefit, nor addressed to you at all, but OTHERS here find the use.
This thread isn't about me- I deliberately stayed quiet for the beginning for that reason.
It's also not about you, OR you and me.
You followed that with another post ignoring my request and when I pointed that out you gave some excuse and said you would answer it when you had more time to consider it.
Your second request-which was NOT a "polite request" but an insinuation I wasn't replying for some reason
or other of less-than-innocent intent- was seen by me after I posted the second of the 2 lengthy posts.
Instead you continued to ignore it.
Actually, it would have been less polite if I just rattled off some quick answer to your question-suggesting
that I didn't think it was worthy of serious consideration. Instead, I said I'd get back to it- so I could address
it with a full measure of attention.
Somehow, you perceive that as an insult.
When you rephrased it, and I saw the rephrasal, it's obvious the question you want specifically addressed is
one of Calvinism, which is not my interest, nor what I'm working on at this time.
I wasn't having any discussion on Calvinism-others were.
I have other aspects of this that I consider warrant more of my attention, and I'm addressing THOSE,
both in my own mind and in the posts earlier on in the thread.
I didn't say I'll NEVER address this, but if I do, it will be when I've dismissed what I consider are higher
priority.
Now what else am I suppose to think but that perhaps you know the implication of my syllogism and to answer it would trap you in a theology that makes you uncomfortable.
So you're admitting that bringing in Calvinism-or those specific questions of Calvinism-
were "to trap me."
The rest of us were having an intelligent, cordial discussion about the knowledge of God.
We're discussing in good faith.
I'd rather complete THAT discussion before delving into trick questions.
I certainly haven't been giving YOU trick questions-I've been giving you questions in good faith and in light
of the posts already here-thus, questions with no surprises hidden in them.
So, you're saying I can't expect the same from you. That's a shame.
If you were less interested in "scoring points" and more interested in the exchange of knowledge,
you'd get more from this thread.
As it is, it's really not supposed to be about you, me, or both of us.
You seem determined to change that, however....
I'll remind you again -- you told me before that I don't have a right to expect people to stay on topic.
Each of us can ASK others nicely to stay on topic- and I do so. Many times, they do. Many times, they do not.
Since neither of us runs this messageboard, we can't do more than that.
This came as news to you?
You did so in a very condescending fashion.
No, just in a matter-of-fact fashion.
I was stating a fact.
I don't couch those in flowery prose, most of the time.
You may have PERCEIVED insult, but none was offered.
Now you're trying to imply that I'm not meeting your standard of discourse and attempting to bully me into complying with YOUR standard.
A) The rest of us are having a nice discussion without anyone having to give any sort of rules.
You just admitted that-while we're doing that- you're upset that you're trying to trap (your words, not mine)
us and getting angry when we're not satisfying your trap.
B) You're the one showing anger and pushing a run of interruptions because we're not posting the way
YOU want and falling into your INTENTIONAL trap.
And you're trying to claim that refusing to do so, and carrying on with a polite discussion,
is "bullying."
How many people do you think you're fooling there?
How is it you have enuf time to respond with this tit-for-tat but not enuf time to actually address my syllogism?
I already answered that in the past few posts....
Our understanding of "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" and "God is love" comes into play, here. The statements themselves are utterly true, IMO. The trouble occurs when we say "therefore."
Our understanding of "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" and "God is love" comes into play, here. The statements themselves are utterly true, IMO. The trouble occurs when we say "therefore."
The problem I have with this is the fact the Bible itself uses "THEREFORE" statements. So the trouble with that statement is -- it ignores those "THEREFORE" statements.
Having not experienced that, (we are talking about an experience only he has had right?), so its a little difficult to relate. So your saying time is a dimension to us and not to God?
That's pretty much what he's saying, I think. It's essentially one thing I'm saying-
we experience time moving from past thru present to future,
and to God, they're all simultaneous, since He has full Understanding of all of them,
and has the power to act fully in all of them.
Isaiah 57:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
15For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
It looks like it from here.
Then again, it's not QUITE the "smoking gun" when King James English isn't relied on,
so it's not exactly fair or honest for us to do so....
Isaiah 57:15 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy,
"I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit
In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite."
I think that, despite this not being a "smoking gun", that we're still representing the concepts fairly, accurately and truly.
Of course he has perfect foreknowlege so why experience a family? Why not just experience it in foreknowledge? (Arghh but that wouldnt be a real experience or not? ) I think the answer to that is God wants a "rest" A place of quiet enjoyment.
Anyways its a bit like entering the Twilight Zone since we have never experienced it right?
Please note that not having the family since He already knows us in the future is not an option-
God would produce a time-paradox, where he prevented events from happening and they happened anyway.
The old example in science fiction you know from Back to the Future-
if you prevent your parents from ever meeting, you prevent your birth, which prevents you from going back
in time, which prevents you from stopping them from meeting,
which means they DO meet, and give birth to you-
so now you can go back in time and prevent them from meeting.....
It can make the head hurt.
So, God, being sensible, doesn't miracle up a prefabricated "family" designed to love Him,
he goes thru the trouble of raising them the slow, old-fashioned way.
He also avoids making paradoxes and other problems.
God doesn't just miracle away things and erase rules He's made (like "past" and "present",
and "cause and effect.")
========
In other news,
I have to take on faith that, to God, we're worth all the energy He's invested in us.
Me, I don't see it. I think He's wasting a lot of energy on some barely-appreciative, and barely-loving, fractious children.
I didn't answer your question in the terms you asked it-I answered it as I understood it.
When I get to your question again, I'll see if there's any other way I'd like to address it.
When you rephrased it, and I saw the rephrasal, it's obvious the question you want specifically addressed is one of Calvinism, which is not my interest, nor what I'm working on at this time.I wasn't having any discussion on Calvinism-others were. I have other aspects of this that I consider warrant more of my attention, and I'm addressing THOSE, both in my own mind and in the posts earlier on in the thread.
I didn't say I'll NEVER address this, but if I do, it will be when I've dismissed what I consider are higher
priority.
Hmm . . . I'm confused. In one quote you stated you "answered it as I understood it" while in the other you stated "but if I do". So tell me. How can you say you answered it and then say "if I do" answer it?
Wordwolf: Are you writing some of the messages at GS now like the one one the Law of Believing and stuff?
Aw shucks sky -- it's just family sorting out things. We'll get through it and I imagine if WW and I had an opportunity to meet face to face over a beer (or whatever his favorite beverage is) we'd have a great time. :)
Seems to me if you are serious about getting an answer to your question, the logical place to start is to find out whether or not it is true God regenerates people’s hearts. If you don’t have a concordance, you can access one at online.bible. I could put in the time for you, but since it’s your question it would seem reasonable for you to put the time into it on your own. Then if you’re unable to answer it, ask for help at that point, and see if anyone has the time and mutual desire to study it with you.
It also seems to me that WordWolf is smart, but being older and wiser than my twi days, I no longer rely on any one person for information.
Seems to me if you are serious about getting an answer to your question, the logical place to start is to find out whether or not it is true God regenerates people’s hearts. If you don’t have a concordance, you can access one at online.bible. I could put in the time for you, but since it’s your question it would seem reasonable for you to put the time into it on your own. Then if you’re unable to answer it, ask for help at that point, and see if anyone has the time and mutual desire to study it with you.
It also seems to me that WordWolf is smart, but being older and wiser than my twi days, I no longer rely on any one person for information.
I agree Wordwolf, sometimes we look at humanity and think, what is it really God sees in us?
Well, right now, we are ruined, fallen - man cannot possibly ever hope to be as Holy as God and enter into his pure Holy kingdom by himself. Thus, the sacrifice of Christ to take the wrath and anger and unholiness upon himself for us on the cross.
But, there must be something worth salvaging that I think we have absolutely no inkling of.
I think we will be blown away in our new creation bodies. We will rejoice for eternity that we believed and were counted worthy to be with Christ.
I find it interesting that God made a helper and companion for Adam - Eve.
And now, God is making a companion for his son - us.
Just as Adam and ever were one - married, so we shall be Christ's "bride."
I love that we are of the same "family" as Christ is, even while still in the flesh.
As for time, I think time was created "in the beginning." I think God inhabits eternity and is outside of time.
Think of time as a circle. Then, a huge, larger circle surrounding it, that is God inhabiting eternity, outside of time.
I agree Wordwolf, sometimes we look at humanity and think, what is it really God sees in us?
Well, right now, we are ruined, fallen - man cannot possibly ever hope to be as Holy as God and enter into his pure Holy kingdom by himself. Thus, the sacrifice of Christ to take the wrath and anger and unholiness upon himself for us on the cross.
But, there must be something worth salvaging that I think we have absolutely no inkling of.
I think we will be blown away in our new creation bodies. We will rejoice for eternity that we believed and were counted worthy to be with Christ.
I find it interesting that God made a helper and companion for Adam - Eve.
And now, God is making a companion for his son - us.
Just as Adam and ever were one - married, so we shall be Christ's "bride."
I love that we are of the same "family" as Christ is, even while still in the flesh.
As for time, I think time was created "in the beginning." I think God inhabits eternity and is outside of time.
Think of time as a circle. Then, a huge, larger circle surrounding it, that is God inhabiting eternity, outside of time.
Think of time as a circle. Then, a huge, larger circle surrounding it, that is God inhabiting eternity, outside of time.
Is there no time in eternity? What is eternity other than an expression of unlimited time -- without beginning and without end. Naturally, we weren't there when everything started but won't we be around throughout a time without end?
Using your example:
I've been around for 52 yrs. One of my children have only been around for 30 of those years. So my child's time is the smaller circle within my larger circle. That doesn't mean I don't occupy his time only that he hasn't occupied my circle of time.
I agree Wordwolf, sometimes we look at humanity and think, what is it really God sees in us?
Well, right now, we are ruined, fallen - man cannot possibly ever hope to be as Holy as God and enter into his pure Holy kingdom by himself. Thus, the sacrifice of Christ to take the wrath and anger and unholiness upon himself for us on the cross.
But, there must be something worth salvaging that I think we have absolutely no inkling of.
I think we will be blown away in our new creation bodies. We will rejoice for eternity that we believed and were counted worthy to be with Christ.
I find it interesting that God made a helper and companion for Adam - Eve.
And now, God is making a companion for his son - us.
Just as Adam and ever were one - married, so we shall be Christ's "bride."
I love that we are of the same "family" as Christ is, even while still in the flesh.
As for time, I think time was created "in the beginning." I think God inhabits eternity and is outside of time.
Think of time as a circle. Then, a huge, larger circle surrounding it, that is God inhabiting eternity, outside of time.
Dear (((((((((Suneisis)))))))))))),
You are a very well spoken Lady, and I certainly appreciate your statements. The time concept is particularly interesting...gives pause to think and mull it over.
Well, if God knew that Saul was going to "turned back from following Me" why would He make him king? And why have regret for doing so when He knew beforehand what Saul was going to do? Doesn't make sense to me -- but that's just me.
One question on the table then becomes,
"The Bible claims God has an infinite understanding and knows all things. (Omniscience.)
God has been said to regret decisions.
How can God regret a decision if He knew the result before making the decision?"
At this moment, we'll look at one such decision and examine the process.
I Samuel 8:1-9 (NASB except where noted otherwise)
1And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons judges over Israel.
2Now the name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judging in Beersheba.
3His sons, however, did not walk in his ways, but turned aside after dishonest gain and took bribes and perverted justice.
4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;
5and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."
6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us " And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
8"Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.
9"Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them."
Here's the setup.
God had set up the Judges (as seen in "the Book of Judges" and explained in the opening chapters) to lead the people and God would
be with the judge. When the people would forsake God, they would get themselves in trouble. Eventually, they would turn back to
God and ask for help. God helped by raising up a Judge, to lead them and stand for God to the people, delivering them.
As long as the Judge lived, he (or she) stood for God, and led the people, and things were fine.
After the Judge died, the people would forsake God, getting themselves in trouble....
This was a repeating pattern across the entire book.
In this cast was Samuel, a Judge appointed by God.
Two problems developed in this situation.
1) Samuel appointed judges on his own. I suppose he thought this made sense- after all, he raised them, and (presumably)
taught them about God, and justice, and they saw him make godly decisions for the good of the people.
Plus, they were his sons, and he'd want them to have good jobs.
Those are not bad reasons, in and of themselves.
However, for the position of Judge, God Almighty reserved EXCLUSIVE right to choose them.
They had a great deal of responsibility, and could make mistakes or grow corrupt, thus, God-who sees the hearts-
is the only proper selector.
That was the first problem.
2) The people were idiots.
The system had worked fine until the current guys. Instead of saying "the current officeholders suck- ask God for a REAL Judge
that won't suck", they said "We want to keep up with the Joneses. All the other countries have kings-
we want a king."
Samuel, naturally, saw this as big trouble, and went to God.
God reminded them that the people had rejected GOD as supreme ruler, and it wasn't really about Samuel.
After hundreds of years of God pulling them out of messes, they wanted this. (Idiots.)
HOWEVER, God was going to let them have what they wanted- a King in place of God Almighty-
so long as he was VERY CLEAR what the consequences were. The people were being TRENDY and had NO IDEA
what kind of messes they were going to get into.
So, God warned them FIRST.
10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king.
11He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots.
12"He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13"He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers.
14"He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants.
15"He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants.
16"He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work.
17"He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.
18"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."
19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us,
20that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."
21Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing.
--------------
God had Samuel let everybody know the CONSEQUENCES of having a king.
Unlike the current system, they'd end up WORKING FOR HIM, not him WORKING FOR THEM, which is what they wanted.
He'll take some of their property, and their people, and possessions.
And they'll realize too late that it was a stupid idea in the first place.
Which will be too late to fix anything.
The people blew all that off, and said "We want a king to rule us AND FIGHT OUR BATTLES."
So, Samuel tells God what they said. Of course, God knew all that, but Samuel had to report in anyway,
and find out what God said. God COULD have saved some time when Samuel walked in and said
"I know what they said-I'm God, remember? This is what you do..."
But He did not. Why? For Samuel's sake. I expect Samuel needed to get some of it out of his system.
Makes a lot more sense than God not knowing what the people said...
Was it God's Will that the people have a king?
No, God warned them WHY it was a Stupid Idea. However, they insisted.
God, at this point, can do several things.
He was going to honour His covenant, and not just abandon them, so that's off the table.
He COULD have overridden their decision, and selected a Judge, and announced
"Here's your Judge. Accept Him or I will smack you up and down the valley."
He COULD have reached out and overridden their free will, and MADE them accept another Judge.
He COULD have let them do their own election and pick whoever they wanted.
He COULD give them a king- the best of all the bad choices.
He chose to do the last of those options. It had the virtue of affording them less harm than the option
before it, and the other choices were unacceptable to Him.
"The Bible claims God has an infinite understanding and knows all things. (Omniscience.)
God has been said to regret decisions.
How can God regret a decision if He knew the result before making the decision?"
At this moment, we'll look at one such decision and examine the process.
I Samuel 8:1-9 (NASB except where noted otherwise)
1And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons judges over Israel.
2Now the name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judging in Beersheba.
3His sons, however, did not walk in his ways, but turned aside after dishonest gain and took bribes and perverted justice.
4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;
5and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."
6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us " And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
8"Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.
9"Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them."
Here's the setup.
God had set up the Judges (as seen in "the Book of Judges" and explained in the opening chapters) to lead the people and God would
be with the judge. When the people would forsake God, they would get themselves in trouble. Eventually, they would turn back to
God and ask for help. God helped by raising up a Judge, to lead them and stand for God to the people, delivering them.
As long as the Judge lived, he (or she) stood for God, and led the people, and things were fine.
After the Judge died, the people would forsake God, getting themselves in trouble....
This was a repeating pattern across the entire book.
In this cast was Samuel, a Judge appointed by God.
Two problems developed in this situation.
1) Samuel appointed judges on his own. I suppose he thought this made sense- after all, he raised them, and (presumably)
taught them about God, and justice, and they saw him make godly decisions for the good of the people.
Plus, they were his sons, and he'd want them to have good jobs.
Those are not bad reasons, in and of themselves.
However, for the position of Judge, God Almighty reserved EXCLUSIVE right to choose them.
They had a great deal of responsibility, and could make mistakes or grow corrupt, thus, God-who sees the hearts-
is the only proper selector.
That was the first problem.
2) The people were idiots.
The system had worked fine until the current guys. Instead of saying "the current officeholders suck- ask God for a REAL Judge
that won't suck", they said "We want to keep up with the Joneses. All the other countries have kings-
we want a king."
Samuel, naturally, saw this as big trouble, and went to God.
God reminded them that the people had rejected GOD as supreme ruler, and it wasn't really about Samuel.
After hundreds of years of God pulling them out of messes, they wanted this. (Idiots.)
HOWEVER, God was going to let them have what they wanted- a King in place of God Almighty-
so long as he was VERY CLEAR what the consequences were. The people were being TRENDY and had NO IDEA
what kind of messes they were going to get into.
So, God warned them FIRST.
10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king.
11He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots.
12"He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13"He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers.
14"He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants.
15"He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants.
16"He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work.
17"He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.
18"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."
19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us,
20that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."
21Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing.
--------------
God had Samuel let everybody know the CONSEQUENCES of having a king.
Unlike the current system, they'd end up WORKING FOR HIM, not him WORKING FOR THEM, which is what they wanted.
He'll take some of their property, and their people, and possessions.
And they'll realize too late that it was a stupid idea in the first place.
Which will be too late to fix anything.
The people blew all that off, and said "We want a king to rule us AND FIGHT OUR BATTLES."
So, Samuel tells God what they said. Of course, God knew all that, but Samuel had to report in anyway,
and find out what God said. God COULD have saved some time when Samuel walked in and said
"I know what they said-I'm God, remember? This is what you do..."
But He did not. Why? For Samuel's sake. I expect Samuel needed to get some of it out of his system.
Makes a lot more sense than God not knowing what the people said...
Was it God's Will that the people have a king?
No, God warned them WHY it was a Stupid Idea. However, they insisted.
God, at this point, can do several things.
He was going to honour His covenant, and not just abandon them, so that's off the table.
He COULD have overridden their decision, and selected a Judge, and announced
"Here's your Judge. Accept Him or I will smack you up and down the valley."
He COULD have reached out and overridden their free will, and MADE them accept another Judge.
He COULD have let them do their own election and pick whoever they wanted.
He COULD give them a king- the best of all the bad choices.
He chose to do the last of those options. It had the virtue of affording them less harm than the option
before it, and the other choices were unacceptable to Him.
Premise 1: It takes God's power to regenerate a person's heart to come to Him. True or false?
Premise 2: If you have come to God it is because God has regenerated your heart. True or false?
Premise 3: If you have not come to God it is because God has not regenerated your heart. True or false?
Conclusion: Therefore it is God who determines who comes to Him and who doesn't. Does the conclusion follow from the premises?
"22The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king." So Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."
I Samuel 9:15-17
15Now a day before Saul's coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying,
16"About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me."
17When Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said to him, "Behold, the man of whom I spoke to you! This one shall rule over My people."
God has Samuel anoint Saul as king, then has the nation assemble for the announcement.
I Samuel 10:17-27
17Thereafter Samuel called the people together to the LORD at Mizpah;
18and he said to the sons of Israel, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I brought Israel up from Egypt, and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the power of all the kingdoms that were oppressing you.'
19"But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, 'No, but set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans."
20Thus Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot.
21Then he brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its families, and the Matrite family was taken. And Saul the son of Kish was taken; but when they looked for him, he could not be found.
22Therefore they inquired further of the LORD, "Has the man come here yet?" So the LORD said, "Behold, he is hiding himself by the baggage."
23So they ran and took him from there, and when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward.
24Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen? Surely there is no one like him among all the people " So all the people shouted and said, "Long live the king!"
25Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, each one to his house.
26Saul also went to his house at Gibeah; and the valiant men whose hearts God had touched went with him.
27But certain worthless men said, "How can this one deliver us?" And they despised him and did not bring him any present. But he kept silent.
God made it clear this was the best of the options they had chosen to limit themselves to.
And Saul was really tall, and looked like a king. Probably looked vigorous, a fighter-type.
We do know later they said he slew "thousands" and this went over, so I think he DID look the
fighting type.
Was Saul always giving WISE decisions? Well....
I Samuel 14:24-30
24Now the men of Israel were hard-pressed on that day, for Saul had put the people under oath, saying, "Cursed be the man who eats food before evening, and until I have avenged myself on my enemies." So none of the people tasted food.
25All the people of the land entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground.
26When the people entered the forest, behold, there was a flow of honey; but no man put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath.
27But Jonathan had not heard when his father put the people under oath; therefore, he put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and dipped it in the honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth, and his eyes brightened.
28Then one of the people said, "Your father strictly put the people under oath, saying, 'Cursed be the man who eats food today.'" And the people were weary.
29Then Jonathan said, "My father has troubled the land. See now, how my eyes have brightened because I tasted a little of this honey.
30"How much more, if only the people had eaten freely today of the spoil of their enemies which they found! For now the slaughter among the Philistines has not been great."
His own son knew that it was dramatic, but stupid, and hampered the people.
Fighting means you need food and sleep. Depriving soldiers of either is to hobble them in combat.
Let's skip over the incident with Amalek and Saul's disobedience in that one, and God selecting David as Saul's replacement.
I Samuel 17:1-
1Now the Philistines gathered their armies for battle; and they were gathered at Socoh which belongs to Judah, and they camped between Socoh and Azekah, in Ephes-dammim.
2Saul and the men of Israel were gathered and camped in the valley of Elah, and drew up in battle array to encounter the Philistines.
3The Philistines stood on the mountain on one side while Israel stood on the mountain on the other side, with the valley between them.
4Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
5He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was clothed with scale-armor which weighed five thousand shekels of bronze.
6He also had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin slung between his shoulders.
7The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and the head of his spear weighed six hundred shekels of iron; his shield-carrier also walked before him.
8He stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel and said to them, "Why do you come out to draw up in battle array? Am I not the Philistine and you servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves and let him come down to me.
9"If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will become your servants; but if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall become our servants and serve us."
10Again the Philistine said, "I defy the ranks of Israel this day; give me a man that we may fight together."
11When Saul and all Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid.
Now, Israel really needs a CHAMPION.
They need a really BIG guy, one who can GO FIGHT THEIR BATTLES.
Do they have such a guy? *coughSaulcough*
Well, Saul-who the people wanted SPECIFICALLY for this, was busy being afraid.
That's how David ended up getting tapped for the job.
I'll skip the details, you all know where to find them.
=========
Hm.
I skipped the verse where the original question was raised.
I Samuel 15:10-11
"10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night."
Looks like we have to look over the Amalek incident after all.
I Samuel 15:1-11
1Then Samuel said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD.
2"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
3'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
4Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah.
5Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley.
6Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt." So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
7So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt.
8He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.
Saul made the deliberate decision to disobey God as soon as he found it convenient.
Then God said he regretted making Saul the king.
Did God know Saul would do this before making Saul king?
Yes- God even warned the people this would happen.
Did God regret making Saul king anyway?
Yes-He JUST said so right here.
Does this pose a problem? Not to God, nor to Scripture. Thus, if there IS a problem, it's in our UNDERSTANDING,
and we need to adjust our understanding to match Scripture.
God knew long before that this was coming, and He didn't like it.
He elected to allow the people their choice, stupid though it was, warned them-and they disregarded that,
and minimized the damage-by giving them the least-disastrous choice of king.
(ANY choice was bad, God found the least-bad.)
God STILL didn't have to LIKE any of that. Since He allowed people the chance to make their freewill decisions,
He put up with it ANYWAY.
Let's also not ignore the context....
I Samuel 15:10-12.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.
12Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul; and it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself, then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal."
God, at the time, was telling Samuel that Samuel needed to confront Saul over his transgressions.
He began by telling Samuel that He regretted making Saul king.
(Didn't say He didn't see it coming- He just said He regretted it.)
God COULD have told Samuel, specifically, that this would be the incident that Samuel would need to deal with eventually-
if He wanted to show off. Instead, He lets Samuel (and Saul and the nation) to interact in a linear fashion like
everyone else. In doing so, He allowed them to interact and exercise their free will entirely.
"22The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king." So Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."
I Samuel 9:15-17
15Now a day before Saul's coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying,
16"About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me."
17When Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said to him, "Behold, the man of whom I spoke to you! This one shall rule over My people."
God has Samuel anoint Saul as king, then has the nation assemble for the announcement.
I Samuel 10:17-27
17Thereafter Samuel called the people together to the LORD at Mizpah;
18and he said to the sons of Israel, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I brought Israel up from Egypt, and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the power of all the kingdoms that were oppressing you.'
19"But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, 'No, but set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans."
20Thus Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot.
21Then he brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its families, and the Matrite family was taken. And Saul the son of Kish was taken; but when they looked for him, he could not be found.
22Therefore they inquired further of the LORD, "Has the man come here yet?" So the LORD said, "Behold, he is hiding himself by the baggage."
23So they ran and took him from there, and when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward.
24Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen? Surely there is no one like him among all the people " So all the people shouted and said, "Long live the king!"
25Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, each one to his house.
26Saul also went to his house at Gibeah; and the valiant men whose hearts God had touched went with him.
27But certain worthless men said, "How can this one deliver us?" And they despised him and did not bring him any present. But he kept silent.
God made it clear this was the best of the options they had chosen to limit themselves to.
And Saul was really tall, and looked like a king. Probably looked vigorous, a fighter-type.
We do know later they said he slew "thousands" and this went over, so I think he DID look the
fighting type.
Was Saul always giving WISE decisions? Well....
I Samuel 14:24-30
24Now the men of Israel were hard-pressed on that day, for Saul had put the people under oath, saying, "Cursed be the man who eats food before evening, and until I have avenged myself on my enemies." So none of the people tasted food.
25All the people of the land entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground.
26When the people entered the forest, behold, there was a flow of honey; but no man put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath.
27But Jonathan had not heard when his father put the people under oath; therefore, he put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and dipped it in the honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth, and his eyes brightened.
28Then one of the people said, "Your father strictly put the people under oath, saying, 'Cursed be the man who eats food today.'" And the people were weary.
29Then Jonathan said, "My father has troubled the land. See now, how my eyes have brightened because I tasted a little of this honey.
30"How much more, if only the people had eaten freely today of the spoil of their enemies which they found! For now the slaughter among the Philistines has not been great."
His own son knew that it was dramatic, but stupid, and hampered the people.
Fighting means you need food and sleep. Depriving soldiers of either is to hobble them in combat.
Let's skip over the incident with Amalek and Saul's disobedience in that one, and God selecting David as Saul's replacement.
I Samuel 17:1-
1Now the Philistines gathered their armies for battle; and they were gathered at Socoh which belongs to Judah, and they camped between Socoh and Azekah, in Ephes-dammim.
2Saul and the men of Israel were gathered and camped in the valley of Elah, and drew up in battle array to encounter the Philistines.
3The Philistines stood on the mountain on one side while Israel stood on the mountain on the other side, with the valley between them.
4Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
5He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was clothed with scale-armor which weighed five thousand shekels of bronze.
6He also had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin slung between his shoulders.
7The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and the head of his spear weighed six hundred shekels of iron; his shield-carrier also walked before him.
8He stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel and said to them, "Why do you come out to draw up in battle array? Am I not the Philistine and you servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves and let him come down to me.
9"If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will become your servants; but if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall become our servants and serve us."
10Again the Philistine said, "I defy the ranks of Israel this day; give me a man that we may fight together."
11When Saul and all Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid.
Now, Israel really needs a CHAMPION.
They need a really BIG guy, one who can GO FIGHT THEIR BATTLES.
Do they have such a guy? *coughSaulcough*
Well, Saul-who the people wanted SPECIFICALLY for this, was busy being afraid.
That's how David ended up getting tapped for the job.
I'll skip the details, you all know where to find them.
=========
Hm.
I skipped the verse where the original question was raised.
I Samuel 15:10-11
"10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night."
Looks like we have to look over the Amalek incident after all.
I Samuel 15:1-11
1Then Samuel said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD.
2"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
3'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
4Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah.
5Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley.
6Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt." So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
7So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt.
8He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.
Saul made the deliberate decision to disobey God as soon as he found it convenient.
Then God said he regretted making Saul the king.
Did God know Saul would do this before making Saul king?
Yes- God even warned the people this would happen.
Did God regret making Saul king anyway?
Yes-He JUST said so right here.
Does this pose a problem? Not to God, nor to Scripture. Thus, if there IS a problem, it's in our UNDERSTANDING,
and we need to adjust our understanding to match Scripture.
God knew long before that this was coming, and He didn't like it.
He elected to allow the people their choice, stupid though it was, warned them-and they disregarded that,
and minimized the damage-by giving them the least-disastrous choice of king.
(ANY choice was bad, God found the least-bad.)
God STILL didn't have to LIKE any of that. Since He allowed people the chance to make their freewill decisions,
He put up with it ANYWAY.
Let's also not ignore the context....
I Samuel 15:10-12.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.
12Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul; and it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself, then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal."
God, at the time, was telling Samuel that Samuel needed to confront Saul over his transgressions.
He began by telling Samuel that He regretted making Saul king.
(Didn't say He didn't see it coming- He just said He regretted it.)
God COULD have told Samuel, specifically, that this would be the incident that Samuel would need to deal with eventually-
if He wanted to show off. Instead, He lets Samuel (and Saul and the nation) to interact in a linear fashion like
everyone else. In doing so, He allowed them to interact and exercise their free will entirely.
Premise 1: It takes God's power to regenerate a person's heart to come to Him. True or false?
Premise 2: If you have come to God it is because God has regenerated your heart. True or false?
Premise 3: If you have not come to God it is because God has not regenerated your heart. True or false?
Conclusion: Therefore it is God who determines who comes to Him and who doesn't. Does the conclusion follow from the premises?
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WordWolf
Actually, I've posted some things, and others have posted some things. In some things, we've agreed, and in some we have not. We call that "discussion." Personally, I'd prefer more posting at the
WordWolf
Oh, and for the benefit of those (or one) who don't see the benefit of it, I'm going to ask a slightly self-serving question. Are others of you appreciating my posts on this thread to date? The on
WordWolf
It's come up that if God's perception is limited strictly to the present- as some have suggested- then all He can offer is a general hope that everything turns out all right. (No, it's not been pos
WordWolf
You suppose a great deal, and have supposed me a great fool.
You've also skipped over what I HAVE said on the subject, and what I agreed to just a few posts back,
saying "this reflects how I see this."
I answer questions in the ORDER that suits me.
You may notice I'm going approximately in the order of the thread.
I'm also not a Calvinist, and your question largely was one of Calvinism.
I didn't answer your question in the terms you asked it-I answered it as I understood it.
When I get to your question again, I'll see if there's any other way I'd like to address it.
In the meantime, I thought we were having a DISCUSSION.
You posed a conundrum, and I offered my answer, and OFFERED TO HELP YOU BREAK THE DEADLOCK
as I understand it.
If you don't want to cooperate, that's your business, but that means you're less interested
in us all gaining in knowledge here than in "scoring points" in some fashion.
If that's your decision, then all I can say is, you're going to miss out.
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Larry N Moore
Translation: I can't answer your syllogism, so I'll bury it with a bunch of words.
I'm cool with that.
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WordWolf
Translation translation: I didn't get the answer I wanted, and I want to draw attention from
refusing to dialogue equally like WordWolf pointed out, so I'll throw out an accusation that
WW COULDN'T answer me, and insult him for posting at length.
I'm not thrilled about that,
but if that's where you're at, that's where you're at.
I wish you wouldn't pull this on a thread with a productive discussion on this, however.
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Larry N Moore
WW I may have been born at night but, it wasn't last night. Your subtlety may fool others but your veiled insults directed towards me have not gone unnoticed.
I made a post. You followed it by responding to a post I made days ago. I stated -- If it's all the same to you I prefer you address my last post. You followed that with another post ignoring my request and when I pointed that out you gave some excuse and said you would answer it when you had more time to consider it. Instead you continued to ignore it. Now what else am I suppose to think but that perhaps you know the implication of my syllogism and to answer it would trap you in a theology that makes you uncomfortable.
I'll remind you again -- you told me before that I don't have a right to expect people to stay on topic. You did so in a very condescending fashion. Now you're trying to imply that I'm not meeting your standard of discourse and attempting to bully me into complying with YOUR standard.
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WordWolf
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (NASB)
13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
===========
Now, how about a partial answer as to why God doesn't just smash all evildoers NOW like some masked vigilante?
Matthew 13:24-30. (NASB)
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Matthew 13:36-43. (NASB)
36Then He left the crowds and went into the house And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.
We're addressing now what may be considered a great mystery to some people, but it can become obvious when asking
the right question while looking at the right verses.
Jesus said the servants of the evil one weren't removed and destroyed NOW because there would then be a risk
to the sons of the kingdom. One might ask why there would be such a problem, since God can see who is His and who is not.
The answer is actually pretty simple.
God knows- but he relates to us not necessarily with all He knows about us, but only what we have done up to the present.
Some people, at different times, whether through foolish choices, horrible events, or the malignant intent of others,
can SEEM to freely choose to serve the evil one- at least for a time.
If a sudden judgement was upon us at that time, we would have no time to reform, to turn and walk the paths of
righteousness, to serve God.
If a sudden judgement was upon us and reflected our later decisions, it would be unfair, since it was based on what we
haven't DONE yet. (It would be like being jailed for a FUTURE crime when you haven't even CONSIDERED committing
a crime...)
Some of us children of God have traveled harder paths, traveled darker paths. God allowed us to turn to Him when WE
were ready, and did not "rush" us. God's allowed us to leave those paths on our own time, and did not render a
summary judgement BEFOREtime.
God operates on GOD's schedule, which is often FAR too slow for our tastes, especially in the era of microwaved foods,
airplane travel, overnight mail, and e-mail. However, He operates on a schedule with more than our whims taken into
account. ALL is taken into account, eventually.
Once it IS taken into account, things will be different.
Revelation 21:1-4 (NASB)
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.
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Larry N Moore
:)
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WordWolf
You know,
if you were less eager to insult me, you might be less eager to perceive insult WHERE NONE WAS OFFERED.
I'm going largely from the front of the thread to the back, with pauses for what I consider are germane posts on this thread.So, I'm responding to MOST posts from days ago.
I don't see anyone else perceiving insult in this.
But it's particular with you.
And I was writing a pair of very long posts, and didn't LOOK for your post while I was posting them both.
This may surprise you, but when I post here, it's often to say something, and often that's not necessarily something
YOU find a benefit, nor addressed to you at all, but OTHERS here find the use.
This thread isn't about me- I deliberately stayed quiet for the beginning for that reason.
It's also not about you, OR you and me.
Your second request-which was NOT a "polite request" but an insinuation I wasn't replying for some reasonor other of less-than-innocent intent- was seen by me after I posted the second of the 2 lengthy posts.
Actually, it would have been less polite if I just rattled off some quick answer to your question-suggesting
that I didn't think it was worthy of serious consideration. Instead, I said I'd get back to it- so I could address
it with a full measure of attention.
Somehow, you perceive that as an insult.
When you rephrased it, and I saw the rephrasal, it's obvious the question you want specifically addressed is
one of Calvinism, which is not my interest, nor what I'm working on at this time.
I wasn't having any discussion on Calvinism-others were.
I have other aspects of this that I consider warrant more of my attention, and I'm addressing THOSE,
both in my own mind and in the posts earlier on in the thread.
I didn't say I'll NEVER address this, but if I do, it will be when I've dismissed what I consider are higher
priority.
So you're admitting that bringing in Calvinism-or those specific questions of Calvinism-were "to trap me."
The rest of us were having an intelligent, cordial discussion about the knowledge of God.
We're discussing in good faith.
I'd rather complete THAT discussion before delving into trick questions.
I certainly haven't been giving YOU trick questions-I've been giving you questions in good faith and in light
of the posts already here-thus, questions with no surprises hidden in them.
So, you're saying I can't expect the same from you. That's a shame.
If you were less interested in "scoring points" and more interested in the exchange of knowledge,
you'd get more from this thread.
As it is, it's really not supposed to be about you, me, or both of us.
You seem determined to change that, however....
Each of us can ASK others nicely to stay on topic- and I do so. Many times, they do. Many times, they do not.
Since neither of us runs this messageboard, we can't do more than that.
This came as news to you?
No, just in a matter-of-fact fashion.I was stating a fact.
I don't couch those in flowery prose, most of the time.
You may have PERCEIVED insult, but none was offered.
A) The rest of us are having a nice discussion without anyone having to give any sort of rules.
You just admitted that-while we're doing that- you're upset that you're trying to trap (your words, not mine)
us and getting angry when we're not satisfying your trap.
B) You're the one showing anger and pushing a run of interruptions because we're not posting the way
YOU want and falling into your INTENTIONAL trap.
And you're trying to claim that refusing to do so, and carrying on with a polite discussion,
is "bullying."
How many people do you think you're fooling there?
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Larry N Moore
How is it you have enuf time to respond with this tit-for-tat but not enuf time to actually address my syllogism?
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WordWolf
I already answered that in the past few posts....
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Larry N Moore
I must have missed that in the sea of words. :)
The problem I have with this is the fact the Bible itself uses "THEREFORE" statements. So the trouble with that statement is -- it ignores those "THEREFORE" statements.
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WordWolf
That's pretty much what he's saying, I think. It's essentially one thing I'm saying-
we experience time moving from past thru present to future,
and to God, they're all simultaneous, since He has full Understanding of all of them,
and has the power to act fully in all of them.
Isaiah 57:15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
15For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
It looks like it from here.
Then again, it's not QUITE the "smoking gun" when King James English isn't relied on,
so it's not exactly fair or honest for us to do so....
Isaiah 57:15 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy,
"I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit
In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite."
I think that, despite this not being a "smoking gun", that we're still representing the concepts fairly, accurately and truly.
Please note that not having the family since He already knows us in the future is not an option-
God would produce a time-paradox, where he prevented events from happening and they happened anyway.
The old example in science fiction you know from Back to the Future-
if you prevent your parents from ever meeting, you prevent your birth, which prevents you from going back
in time, which prevents you from stopping them from meeting,
which means they DO meet, and give birth to you-
so now you can go back in time and prevent them from meeting.....
It can make the head hurt.
So, God, being sensible, doesn't miracle up a prefabricated "family" designed to love Him,
he goes thru the trouble of raising them the slow, old-fashioned way.
He also avoids making paradoxes and other problems.
God doesn't just miracle away things and erase rules He's made (like "past" and "present",
and "cause and effect.")
========
In other news,
I have to take on faith that, to God, we're worth all the energy He's invested in us.
Me, I don't see it. I think He's wasting a lot of energy on some barely-appreciative, and barely-loving, fractious children.
To someone All-Knowing, this makes sense.
So, I'll have to trust Him that we're worth it.
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Larry N Moore
Hmm . . . I'm confused. In one quote you stated you "answered it as I understood it" while in the other you stated "but if I do". So tell me. How can you say you answered it and then say "if I do" answer it?
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sky4it
Wordwolf, LarryNMoore:
Interesting dialogue between u two,
Wordwolf: Are you writing some of the messages at GS now like the one one the Law of Believing and stuff?
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Larry N Moore
Aw shucks sky -- it's just family sorting out things. We'll get through it and I imagine if WW and I had an opportunity to meet face to face over a beer (or whatever his favorite beverage is) we'd have a great time. :)
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another spot
Larry,
Seems to me if you are serious about getting an answer to your question, the logical place to start is to find out whether or not it is true God regenerates people’s hearts. If you don’t have a concordance, you can access one at online.bible. I could put in the time for you, but since it’s your question it would seem reasonable for you to put the time into it on your own. Then if you’re unable to answer it, ask for help at that point, and see if anyone has the time and mutual desire to study it with you.
It also seems to me that WordWolf is smart, but being older and wiser than my twi days, I no longer rely on any one person for information.
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Larry N Moore
Thanks for the suggestion another spot.
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Sunesis
I agree Wordwolf, sometimes we look at humanity and think, what is it really God sees in us?
Well, right now, we are ruined, fallen - man cannot possibly ever hope to be as Holy as God and enter into his pure Holy kingdom by himself. Thus, the sacrifice of Christ to take the wrath and anger and unholiness upon himself for us on the cross.
But, there must be something worth salvaging that I think we have absolutely no inkling of.
I think we will be blown away in our new creation bodies. We will rejoice for eternity that we believed and were counted worthy to be with Christ.
I find it interesting that God made a helper and companion for Adam - Eve.
And now, God is making a companion for his son - us.
Just as Adam and ever were one - married, so we shall be Christ's "bride."
I love that we are of the same "family" as Christ is, even while still in the flesh.
As for time, I think time was created "in the beginning." I think God inhabits eternity and is outside of time.
Think of time as a circle. Then, a huge, larger circle surrounding it, that is God inhabiting eternity, outside of time.
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likeaneagle
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Larry N Moore
Is there no time in eternity? What is eternity other than an expression of unlimited time -- without beginning and without end. Naturally, we weren't there when everything started but won't we be around throughout a time without end?
Using your example:
I've been around for 52 yrs. One of my children have only been around for 30 of those years. So my child's time is the smaller circle within my larger circle. That doesn't mean I don't occupy his time only that he hasn't occupied my circle of time.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear (((((((((Suneisis)))))))))))),
You are a very well spoken Lady, and I certainly appreciate your statements. The time concept is particularly interesting...gives pause to think and mull it over.
I love you Suneisis, RainbowsGirl
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WordWolf
One question on the table then becomes,
"The Bible claims God has an infinite understanding and knows all things. (Omniscience.)
God has been said to regret decisions.
How can God regret a decision if He knew the result before making the decision?"
At this moment, we'll look at one such decision and examine the process.
I Samuel 8:1-9 (NASB except where noted otherwise)
1And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons judges over Israel.
2Now the name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judging in Beersheba.
3His sons, however, did not walk in his ways, but turned aside after dishonest gain and took bribes and perverted justice.
4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;
5and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."
6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us " And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
8"Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.
9"Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them."
Here's the setup.
God had set up the Judges (as seen in "the Book of Judges" and explained in the opening chapters) to lead the people and God would
be with the judge. When the people would forsake God, they would get themselves in trouble. Eventually, they would turn back to
God and ask for help. God helped by raising up a Judge, to lead them and stand for God to the people, delivering them.
As long as the Judge lived, he (or she) stood for God, and led the people, and things were fine.
After the Judge died, the people would forsake God, getting themselves in trouble....
This was a repeating pattern across the entire book.
In this cast was Samuel, a Judge appointed by God.
Two problems developed in this situation.
1) Samuel appointed judges on his own. I suppose he thought this made sense- after all, he raised them, and (presumably)
taught them about God, and justice, and they saw him make godly decisions for the good of the people.
Plus, they were his sons, and he'd want them to have good jobs.
Those are not bad reasons, in and of themselves.
However, for the position of Judge, God Almighty reserved EXCLUSIVE right to choose them.
They had a great deal of responsibility, and could make mistakes or grow corrupt, thus, God-who sees the hearts-
is the only proper selector.
That was the first problem.
2) The people were idiots.
The system had worked fine until the current guys. Instead of saying "the current officeholders suck- ask God for a REAL Judge
that won't suck", they said "We want to keep up with the Joneses. All the other countries have kings-
we want a king."
Samuel, naturally, saw this as big trouble, and went to God.
God reminded them that the people had rejected GOD as supreme ruler, and it wasn't really about Samuel.
After hundreds of years of God pulling them out of messes, they wanted this. (Idiots.)
HOWEVER, God was going to let them have what they wanted- a King in place of God Almighty-
so long as he was VERY CLEAR what the consequences were. The people were being TRENDY and had NO IDEA
what kind of messes they were going to get into.
So, God warned them FIRST.
10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king.
11He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots.
12"He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13"He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers.
14"He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants.
15"He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants.
16"He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work.
17"He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.
18"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."
19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us,
20that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."
21Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing.
--------------
God had Samuel let everybody know the CONSEQUENCES of having a king.
Unlike the current system, they'd end up WORKING FOR HIM, not him WORKING FOR THEM, which is what they wanted.
He'll take some of their property, and their people, and possessions.
And they'll realize too late that it was a stupid idea in the first place.
Which will be too late to fix anything.
The people blew all that off, and said "We want a king to rule us AND FIGHT OUR BATTLES."
So, Samuel tells God what they said. Of course, God knew all that, but Samuel had to report in anyway,
and find out what God said. God COULD have saved some time when Samuel walked in and said
"I know what they said-I'm God, remember? This is what you do..."
But He did not. Why? For Samuel's sake. I expect Samuel needed to get some of it out of his system.
Makes a lot more sense than God not knowing what the people said...
Was it God's Will that the people have a king?
No, God warned them WHY it was a Stupid Idea. However, they insisted.
God, at this point, can do several things.
He was going to honour His covenant, and not just abandon them, so that's off the table.
He COULD have overridden their decision, and selected a Judge, and announced
"Here's your Judge. Accept Him or I will smack you up and down the valley."
He COULD have reached out and overridden their free will, and MADE them accept another Judge.
He COULD have let them do their own election and pick whoever they wanted.
He COULD give them a king- the best of all the bad choices.
He chose to do the last of those options. It had the virtue of affording them less harm than the option
before it, and the other choices were unacceptable to Him.
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Larry N Moore
Premise 1: It takes God's power to regenerate a person's heart to come to Him. True or false?
Premise 2: If you have come to God it is because God has regenerated your heart. True or false?
Premise 3: If you have not come to God it is because God has not regenerated your heart. True or false?
Conclusion: Therefore it is God who determines who comes to Him and who doesn't. Does the conclusion follow from the premises?
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WordWolf
Continuing in I Samuel...
I Samuel 8:22.
"22The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king." So Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."
I Samuel 9:15-17
15Now a day before Saul's coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying,
16"About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me."
17When Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said to him, "Behold, the man of whom I spoke to you! This one shall rule over My people."
God has Samuel anoint Saul as king, then has the nation assemble for the announcement.
I Samuel 10:17-27
17Thereafter Samuel called the people together to the LORD at Mizpah;
18and he said to the sons of Israel, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I brought Israel up from Egypt, and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the power of all the kingdoms that were oppressing you.'
19"But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, 'No, but set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans."
20Thus Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot.
21Then he brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its families, and the Matrite family was taken. And Saul the son of Kish was taken; but when they looked for him, he could not be found.
22Therefore they inquired further of the LORD, "Has the man come here yet?" So the LORD said, "Behold, he is hiding himself by the baggage."
23So they ran and took him from there, and when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward.
24Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen? Surely there is no one like him among all the people " So all the people shouted and said, "Long live the king!"
25Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, each one to his house.
26Saul also went to his house at Gibeah; and the valiant men whose hearts God had touched went with him.
27But certain worthless men said, "How can this one deliver us?" And they despised him and did not bring him any present. But he kept silent.
God made it clear this was the best of the options they had chosen to limit themselves to.
And Saul was really tall, and looked like a king. Probably looked vigorous, a fighter-type.
We do know later they said he slew "thousands" and this went over, so I think he DID look the
fighting type.
Was Saul always giving WISE decisions? Well....
I Samuel 14:24-30
24Now the men of Israel were hard-pressed on that day, for Saul had put the people under oath, saying, "Cursed be the man who eats food before evening, and until I have avenged myself on my enemies." So none of the people tasted food.
25All the people of the land entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground.
26When the people entered the forest, behold, there was a flow of honey; but no man put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath.
27But Jonathan had not heard when his father put the people under oath; therefore, he put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and dipped it in the honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth, and his eyes brightened.
28Then one of the people said, "Your father strictly put the people under oath, saying, 'Cursed be the man who eats food today.'" And the people were weary.
29Then Jonathan said, "My father has troubled the land. See now, how my eyes have brightened because I tasted a little of this honey.
30"How much more, if only the people had eaten freely today of the spoil of their enemies which they found! For now the slaughter among the Philistines has not been great."
His own son knew that it was dramatic, but stupid, and hampered the people.
Fighting means you need food and sleep. Depriving soldiers of either is to hobble them in combat.
Let's skip over the incident with Amalek and Saul's disobedience in that one, and God selecting David as Saul's replacement.
I Samuel 17:1-
1Now the Philistines gathered their armies for battle; and they were gathered at Socoh which belongs to Judah, and they camped between Socoh and Azekah, in Ephes-dammim.
2Saul and the men of Israel were gathered and camped in the valley of Elah, and drew up in battle array to encounter the Philistines.
3The Philistines stood on the mountain on one side while Israel stood on the mountain on the other side, with the valley between them.
4Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
5He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was clothed with scale-armor which weighed five thousand shekels of bronze.
6He also had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin slung between his shoulders.
7The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and the head of his spear weighed six hundred shekels of iron; his shield-carrier also walked before him.
8He stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel and said to them, "Why do you come out to draw up in battle array? Am I not the Philistine and you servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves and let him come down to me.
9"If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will become your servants; but if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall become our servants and serve us."
10Again the Philistine said, "I defy the ranks of Israel this day; give me a man that we may fight together."
11When Saul and all Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid.
Now, Israel really needs a CHAMPION.
They need a really BIG guy, one who can GO FIGHT THEIR BATTLES.
Do they have such a guy? *coughSaulcough*
Well, Saul-who the people wanted SPECIFICALLY for this, was busy being afraid.
That's how David ended up getting tapped for the job.
I'll skip the details, you all know where to find them.
=========
Hm.
I skipped the verse where the original question was raised.
I Samuel 15:10-11
"10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night."
Looks like we have to look over the Amalek incident after all.
I Samuel 15:1-11
1Then Samuel said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD.
2"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
3'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
4Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah.
5Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley.
6Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt." So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
7So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt.
8He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.
Saul made the deliberate decision to disobey God as soon as he found it convenient.
Then God said he regretted making Saul the king.
Did God know Saul would do this before making Saul king?
Yes- God even warned the people this would happen.
Did God regret making Saul king anyway?
Yes-He JUST said so right here.
Does this pose a problem? Not to God, nor to Scripture. Thus, if there IS a problem, it's in our UNDERSTANDING,
and we need to adjust our understanding to match Scripture.
God knew long before that this was coming, and He didn't like it.
He elected to allow the people their choice, stupid though it was, warned them-and they disregarded that,
and minimized the damage-by giving them the least-disastrous choice of king.
(ANY choice was bad, God found the least-bad.)
God STILL didn't have to LIKE any of that. Since He allowed people the chance to make their freewill decisions,
He put up with it ANYWAY.
Let's also not ignore the context....
I Samuel 15:10-12.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.
12Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul; and it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself, then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal."
God, at the time, was telling Samuel that Samuel needed to confront Saul over his transgressions.
He began by telling Samuel that He regretted making Saul king.
(Didn't say He didn't see it coming- He just said He regretted it.)
God COULD have told Samuel, specifically, that this would be the incident that Samuel would need to deal with eventually-
if He wanted to show off. Instead, He lets Samuel (and Saul and the nation) to interact in a linear fashion like
everyone else. In doing so, He allowed them to interact and exercise their free will entirely.
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Larry N Moore
Premise 1: It takes God's power to regenerate a person's heart to come to Him. True or false?
Premise 2: If you have come to God it is because God has regenerated your heart. True or false?
Premise 3: If you have not come to God it is because God has not regenerated your heart. True or false?
Conclusion: Therefore it is God who determines who comes to Him and who doesn't. Does the conclusion follow from the premises?
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