What Does God Know?

[T-Bone]

...Don't quite understand the living outside time limit part?...

On page 12 of his book, when describing simple foreknowledge Erickson explains that God sees all points within time as if they were simultaneous with him. The events of history being like a parade. A person watching the parade at ground level, sees only the portion of it in front of him at that time. Whereas, God having a higher vantage point [outside of time] sees the entire parade simultaneously. Thus for an atemporal God, there is really no past, present, and future. All things simply are simultaneous.

And speaking of time – Hugh Ross in The Extra-dimensionality of God – Beyond the Cosmos talks about the space-time theorem and defines time as a dimension along which cause and effect phenomena occur. The creation event includes our time dimension as well. Whoever caused the universe, then must have a least one more time dimension [or some attribute, capacity, super-dimension, or supra-dimension that encompasses all the properties of time]. The Creator's capacities must include at least two or more, time dimensions. No wonder He calls Himself the "I AM," the Alpha and the Omega. [page 23, 24]

I imagine time as a sequence of events moving down a one-way street. We are stuck going in one direction. But if God could access another timeline or create another timeline – how would that relate to our single time dimension? Placed 90 degrees across our street – it would be like an intersection of time - enabling Him to operate however long He wanted to at that point in our time. A mere moment in time to us could be billions of hours, days, or years to Him.

"How can God hear and respond to my prayers while millions or even billions of other people are praying at the same moment around the world?...In a timeline perpendicular to ours, God, for example, could divide up two billion hours into six billion twenty-minute segments…God can give individual undivided attention to any number of prayers simultaneously." [Beyond the Cosmos page 64, 65]

Edited September 6, 2007 by T-Bone

[sirguessalot]

just wondering ...

if there is no real concrete past or real concrete future...then God is off the hook for knowing anything about either of them

but if by God I AM the Witness of this very moment...and all the possible futures and pasts that arise...why would i need any more than that?

all pasts and futures exist in the present moment...i mean, where else could they be?

[WordWolf]

If he knows the hair on your head and the stars in the heavens, I'd think He's got everything covered. Wouldn't you have to be bigger than God to challenge that?

Luke 12:7 (KJV)

"6Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

7But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."

I once read a paper or something on "the limited foreknowledge of God." I can't remember the details of it, I only remember critically reading it and thinking the writer had his lights on, but nobody was home.

Romans 11:33

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

My best shot is that God knows the past, present, and future... one as perfectly as the other.

I believe God knows all.

He inhabits eternity.

I used to wonder how the "eternal present" (to paraphrase St. Augustine) worked. As I mused, I thought of this.

I closed my eyes and thought of something in my past from childhood.

I then thought of something I had planned and would be doing in the future.

As I sat there in the present, where was I?

I was in the present. I had also been in the past and in the future, while in the present.

Its remotely similar I think to how God operates - in the eternal present yet knowing all.

Isaiah 57:15

"For thus saith the high and lofty One

that inhabiteth eternity,

whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

[WordWolf]

Time Magazine once did a cover-story on the subject of Evil.

(Really.)

They mentioned three statements:

1) God is Loving

2) God is All-Powerful

3) Evil exists

They claimed that it's possible to reconcile any TWO of those statements, but it's impossible to reconcile all three..

My response to that is that they were limiting the information that reconciles that.

They presumed that their understanding was the limit of understanding on the subject.

We know that God is Loving. We know that God is All-Powerful. We know that evil exists.

Period.

(Those of us who accept the Bible as given, anyway- that's who this thread's addressed to, but you all knew that already.)

Therefore, the question is HOW are all three true?

When there's suffering, why doesn't God immediately step in and end the suffering?

Is it because He is UNABLE to? (Rejecting "God is All-Powerful")

Is it because He does not wish to end suffering? (Rejecting "God is Loving".)

Is it because there is no evil or suffering, only an illusion of both? (Rejecting "evil exists".)

Different beliefs have been proposed down the centuries, to promote one or another of those.

If all three statements are true, then there's something fundamentally missing from our understanding,

something that makes all of this make sense together, how a God of Love finds it sensible not to blast every instance

of evil from existence the moment it happened.

It is my conviction that this is true and that Scripture teaches this.

It is my belief that the matter missing is one of both FREE WILL and of the COMPLETE PICTURE.

God could easily end all acts of evil by erasing our free will and making us a bunch of puppets.

He knows this. That He has not means that He has rejected that as a solution.

(At least for now, which is all I can speak for.)

God, therefore, considers free will so important that it trumps suffering- that we should be allowed, to a degree,

to suffer, so that we are free to make our own decisions, and face them.

What do I mean by "the complete picture?" Parents all understand this to a degree.

Your child wants to have fun rather than do his or her homework, but it has to get done. So you do not permit

your child to have fun rather than do the homework. Sometimes, the child considers you a meanie for this.

If they're young enough, they can really resent this check on their impulses.

However, are you REALLY being a meanie? No.

You know the BIG PICTURE. Children need guidance, and what seems-to a small child- to be of no use and

only negative often has a perfectly-sensible and necessary function.

I also know that science has been showing that a child who lives in a completely pristine environment, one where

germs are killed off, where all surfaces are scoured free of bacteria often, these are the children MOST at risk

for asthma, allergies, and other problems. Their immune systems didn't develop as fully as they might have,

and the child-or the adult, later- pays the price in health.

Am I stating I KNOW and can explain all suffering? No.

I'm saying that the little I DO know-and that's little enough but it's enough for you to see the basics-

is enough for me to be confident that trusting God and waiting for the ENTIRE PICTURE will mean it will all

make COMPLETE sense LATER.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

" 13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

I believe that-in the appointed hour- God shall bring EVERY work into judgment.

That there will be a COMPLETE accounting.

And it will all make sense.

[WordWolf]

I'll be addressing a number of things- just not all at once, but I will get there.

One I'd like to address now has been heard by a number of you.

Some people once began their own approach to handle the existence of the 3 statements.

They said that God didn't KNOW evil deeds were going to be done before they happened.

This God was a God who is with us in the moment, but is not beyond us seeing ahead.

He's a comfortable, accessible God.

Me, I prefer one I can trust fully but not understand- HE can GUARANTEE eventual victory.

Some of THOSE people claimed that the proof that God can't see problems coming is right in Genesis 3,

in the Garden of Eden. (*cue Iron Butterfly music*)

Is it really? Let's see.

As we all know (and you can easily review Genesis 2 on your own if this isn't fresh in your mind),

the situation was simple and clear.

Adam and Eve had carte blanche. Their jobs- gardener.

Their restrictions? Only one- the tree of the knowledge of good and evil- its fruit was forbidden,

and they would die the day they ate thereof.

Let's pick up in Genesis 3.

Verse 1.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Now, looking back, we are aware the serpent had a plan, that he was up to something. But did God know this

at the time the serpent approached Eve?

Hebrew 4:13

13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The serpent was part of God's creation, and was manifest in God's sight. The serpent's plan is naked and open to God.

God was fully aware BEFORE the serpent spoke that the serpent had a plan, what it was, and the consequences.

Proverbs 15:3

3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

The woman, at that time, was still good. The serpent was evil. The eyes of the LORD were there and saw them.

There's 2 humans in creation, and he's able to keep track of both of them.

Duh.

He can keep track of MILLIONS of us and hear ALL our prayers- of COURSE he can keep track of 2 humans!

Genesis 3:2-6

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

We know God was aware that it was happening, but just for fun, let's add another question.

Did God know what was going on in the minds of Eve-as she considered and sinned-

and Adam-as he considered and sinned?

Of course He did.

Job 42:2

2I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

They were unable to hide their thoughts from God.

========

Genesis 3:7-8

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

They knew something had changed, and put fig leaves together to cover their nakedness, and they try to hide from God.

How successful can hiding from God be?

Some said it WAS successful, for God asks Adam where he is.

Genesis 3:9

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Clearly, however, God knew EXACTLY where Adam was. Note that the first mention of the "VOICE of God" just occurred.

Rather than communicate with them spiritually, God used their 5 senses. He knew what happened, He knew what they lost.

Is it truly futile to try to hide from God?

Job 34:21-22

1For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.

22There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

Adam and Eve were now workers of iniquity-they had sinned.

Adam tried to hide. Was Adam successful?

God was fully aware of Adam's deeds and thoughts, completely down to where he was hiding.

Why then, does God ask Adam this series of questions?

Genesis 3:9-13

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

I've heard someone say that this was when "all of this came to God's attention."

I think the evidence strongly indicates the opposite.

Why, then, all the questions when God already knows all the answers?

It wasn't for God's benefit-it was for MAN'S benefit.

God is calling Man to account for his/her deeds, making it clear what brought them to that point, and WHY

punishment and consequences were coming to pass.

=========

Now then, someone may certainly ask "If God knew, as we saw, then why didn't God stop them before they sinned?"

and conclude that a God who didn't stop them wouldn't be Love.

If such a person asked that question, I would answer them to the first, that nobody ASKED God to intervene.

God gave them the situation, told them the consequences, and let them think for themselves- and live with the

consequences should they sin. God honoured their free will, and did not reach out and jerk their strings and stop

them from sinning. We see the same thing in ourselves whenever we make the foolish decision to sin-

God does not take us over and steer us to right action.

(Praise God He doesn't do this.)

[Sunesis]

Yes, excellent posts Wordwolf.

From Satan's fall to man's fall, God needs to let all of creation in the universe - angel and man - see that he is just, his judgment is just and his plans are just.

If, after Satan sinned, God had just opted to destroy him, would the other spiritual beings not start to doubt and maybe start to wonder, would not someone else step up and rebel. Instead of enduring an endless cycle of rebellion over and over, it makes more sense to let everything play out, so at the end, when all are gathered up and the kingdom is here, those inhabitants freely worship and walk with him and have no desire to leave his love.

I also read somewhere, you can think of it like this: If someone told you that you could inhabit paradise, utopia, or whatever you want to call it, where everything would be love, perfection, the heaven men dream of; would you go through 5 minutes of hurt to get there for eternity?

I.e., would you put up with some bad (man's free will to do evil) for a moment, to attain the utopia?

Basically, everyone questioned, said, of course.

What we consider a long time, is but a blip on God's timeline.

[anotherDan]

WW, you've moved on to another subject, having settled the "what does God know and when does/did/will He know it" question with the beautiful verse about God inhabiting eternity.

It's a good subject. I went through a personal crisis after 9/11, and Billy Graham's message at the National Cathedral, which I thought was wonderful, addressed the subject. But, as I remember it, the riddle is answered by "I don't know." He quotes the biblical phrase, "the mystery of iniquity."

It's a rough world out there. There's a marvelous series by the BBC call The Blue Planet that awes, inspires, and terrifies me. Borrowed one disc from the library, several times, until my kids bought me the whole set. Anyway, there is one segment where orcas ("killer whales") snatch baby seals right off the beach. They then play with it, half dead, throwing it in the air with their tails for up to half an hour. The narrator says something like, "We can only wonder what the h3ll they're thinking." (Not really. I think he says, "We can only guess at the reasons for this remarkable behavior.") Another segment shows them killing a young grey whale while the mother tries to protect it. They eat only the tongue or the lower jaw. Dramatic footage, and puzzling.

Of course, human suffering is a little closer to home. And it's especially distressing to witness when it's "unfair." In other words, we accept someone's suffering easier if they "get what they deserve." But children and other innocents, like the victims of 9/11, produce in us outrage, that is, if we are not somehow numbed.

The Bible addresses this question in what some believe is its oldest writings: The Book of Job. I don't care to debate or even discuss where I've come to theologically in relation to this biblical book. Suffice it to say that I think VP's treatment of it is simplistic and flat wrong. I enjoyed reading Bullinger's take on it (strangely, since I'm not a big fan any more) in his book, which I think is titled The Book of Job, subtitle, the oldest lesson in the world. There are a lot of very good commentaries on Job.

Your topic is a tough one. To paraphrase you, our understanding is too limited to reconcile the three statements about God, but you go on to try to understand it, and state some of your convictions (which, BTW, I think are very good.) Here are a couple of other thoughts:

1Pe 2:18ff, KJV

Servants, [be]subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

As good, honest readers, we take note that this is addressed to slaves, but there are truths suggested (or declared, if you like) here that are not intended to be reserved for slaves only. Note the "unfairness" of their suffering. Lots of good learning in there, if you're a Bible fan.

1Pe 3:8ff

Finally, [be ye]all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

snip

1Pe 4:1,2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

snip

1Pe 4:12ff

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

"But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;" Easier said than done, eh Verne? Reminds me of the beatitudes. A follower of Jesus Christ is going to be "blessed" (happy) in unhappy circumstances... such as when he is reviled, falsely accused, etc. The kingdom of God belongs unto such. Wanna go to church with me? <_<

"For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust..." If the will of God be so? This, I think, may be an affront to the Waybrained. Get over it. (Only allowed to say that on GS when directed to the Waybrained. LOL)

The book Wild at Heart (is that the title) makes note of the wildness of God. He created whales, after all.

Lots of great learning there, and of course the context will add further understanding. Got to go for now. Thanks, WW. With you, I am convinced that God will make the world right, after we have suffered a while due to sin, according to the revelation given in the books of Genesis and Revelation, and those between -- the Gospels being the key and the crux. He will wipe away all our tears -- all His children's tears -- even as He has for His Number One Son.

Edited September 6, 2007 by anotherDan

[WordWolf]

Very good points.

I just wanted to note that I haven't glossed over other points, I will get to them in turn.

I'm just tackling them in the order that I wish to, with no claims it's the optimal order or make sense to anyone else.

I will get back to straight discussion on omniscience.

[anotherDan]

Our understanding of "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" and "God is love" comes into play, here. The statements themselves are utterly true, IMO. The trouble occurs when we say "therefore."

[sky4it]

TBone

I guess I kind of understood that.

Having not experienced that, (we are talking about an experience only he has had right?), so its a little difficult to relate. So your saying time is a dimension to us and not to God?

Of course he has perfect foreknowlege so why experience a family? Why not just experience it in foreknowledge? (Arghh but that wouldnt be a real experience or not? ) I think the answer to that is God wants a "rest" A place of quiet enjoyment.

Anyways its a bit like entering the Twilight Zone since we have never experienced it right?

Edited September 6, 2007 by sky4it

[RainbowsGirl]

Let's see, God kind of knows, or maybe not fully, but then he doesn't know how someone will choose, but maybe he really does...

There have been so many "new" teachings, not just on this, but other topics cropping up in the last few years, it amazes me how people run after them. Itching ears, new doctrines.

Maybe we should make it easy, if God doesn't have foreknowledge, if he's not omnipotent, omniscient, let's just say the obvious,

there is no God.

In fact, I have foreknowledge of what I'll be doing tomorrow, I guess I'm smarter and have more foreknowledge than he does. Thus, I must be God.

Thank You (((((((((Sunesis,))))))))))

That was so very well and succinctly put Sunesis! There are so many well thought out posts here in this thread! I would like to be as brilliant as you all are; no doubt I am not, but one very important thing that I am truly thankful for is that GOD made his word clear enough and simple enough for me to study and to understand. That is why I mostly only read the doctrinal and about the way threads. After TWI, I have been studying it on my own with new "eyes" and I find it still has it's very own clarity and simplicity.

[Larry N Moore]

Maybe we should make it easy, if God doesn't have foreknowledge, if he's not omnipotent, omniscient, let's just say the obvious,

there is no God.

Well, that's a conclusion that doesn't follow from the premises. The logical conclusion one should draw from the premises is -- God isn't necessarily what people tell us He is or what we think He is. And just because God has limitations doesn't make Him less of a God worthy of worship and praise.

[Sunesis]

Yeah, ok Larry, whatever.

You worship a small god with limitations.

Good for you.

Rainbow, yes, when we leave TWI we find God is still there and bigger than we thought. I like your expression, with new eyes - great way to look at it :)

Edited September 6, 2007 by Sunesis

[TheEvan]

Honestly, Larry, the only way I could warrant such a conclusion is by analyzing verses or phrases, or even larger stories, without backing up and readig the Bible as the plan of redemption. I assert that if one reads the wider sweep of the story of redemption, limited foreknowledge is an impossible conclusion.

[T-Bone]

....There are so many well thought out posts here in this thread! I would like to be as brilliant as you all are; no doubt I am not, but one very important thing that I am truly thankful for is that GOD made his word clear enough and simple enough for me to study and to understand. That is why I mostly only read the doctrinal and about the way threads. After TWI, I have been studying it on my own with new "eyes" and I find it still has it's very own clarity and simplicity.

Rainbows Girl, everyone has some interesting stuff inside! It's just a matter of getting what's in you – out! I like drafting stuff in a Word document offline. There's no pressure…Somehow a thought can come out different on paper – it's not the same as when I mull something over in my head or talk with someone…On paper, I get to fine tune the thought…get it out in the open where I can analyze it better. I'm still new at this – and marvel at the punch packed into the posts of old timers on Grease Spot…That offers hope – the more we do this the better we become at getting what's in us - out!

[sorry for the digression folks, I'm just trying to bring a new person to twig ]

Edited September 6, 2007 by T-Bone

[RainbowsGirl]

Rainbows Girl, everyone has some interesting stuff inside! It's just a matter of getting what's in you – out! I like drafting stuff in a Word document offline. There's no pressure…Somehow a thought can come out different on paper – it's not the same as when I mull something over in my head or talk with someone…On paper, I get to fine tune the thought…get it out in the open where I can analyze it better. I'm still new at this – and marvel at the punch packed into the posts of old timers on Grease Spot…That offers hope – the more we do this the better we become at getting what's in us - out!

[sorry for the digression folks, I'm just trying to bring a new person to twig ]

Thanks T-Bone,

I would love to be in your revised idea of twig and with the revised green card!

[anotherDan]

Yeah, ok Larry, whatever.

You worship a small god with limitations.

Good for you.

Sunesis, the God Larry worships may be just as big as the one you do. If you don't think so, it may be because you're not listening.

[Larry N Moore]

Yeah, ok Larry, whatever.

You worship a small god with limitations.

Good for you.

My theological position on the nature/attributes of God in no way diminishes His greatness. Nor does your theological position increase it. God is not great because of what we think He should be able to do or should know but rather, He's great because of what He has done and knows.

When I consider the nature of God's knowledge I think of it in terms of our own, only magnified a trillion squared. I believe it's that great knowledge which makes it possible to predict future events with possibly 99.999999999 % accuracy. Think of in terms of meteorologists -- the technology and knowledge (at their disposal) has increased to such a degree that their weather predictions are far more accurate than it was decades or centuries ago. God's knowledge of the conditions favorable to a thunderstorm are so astronomical that when He forecasts what the weather will be like years in advance there is very, very, very, very little chance that He would be wrong. And another thing I consider is -- Scientists are working on ways to control the weather -- one such experiment is making rain -- I believe that's already been accomplished in a laboratory. Now since God knows everything about weather conditions -- what causes it to rain; what causes tornadoes etc., etc., etc. I don't see why -- like a master scientist -- He would not be able to control weather which to our eyes and understanding would be defined as a miracle. Think about the nature of the human body to heal itself. God knows everything there is to know about how that's accomplished. Think of a simple cut. What is the body doing when the flesh is slashed? Special cells go into action with the goal of healing that part of your body. With that knowledge I don't see why He can't manipulate the process at -- say the speed of light and to our eyes and understanding we would consider it a miracle.

I don't think our knowledge will ever come close to the knowledge God has and that's only part of what makes Him God. Perhaps when we can speak into being a Universe and make a human being we might think of ourselves as godlike but even then only our God made it possible -- because He created us -- we didn't create Him.

[another spot]

“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.’” (Isaiah 46:9)

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained (prognosko-know before) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Clearly God already knew the fall would happen before the foundation of the world, but He had a plan.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants.

Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God?

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

Joseph had been sold into slavery and imprisoned. I’m sure you know the story. God worked with the evil free will decisions of the brothers to bring a great deliverance.

1Sam 15:11: I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not carried out My commands.

This verse could almost make a person think God didn’t know Saul would be evil. However God predicted this in Sam. 8:11-17.

I Sam. 8:18 Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.

The ultimate result was God raised up David, from whom Christ descended.

This pattern of God working with disobedience and free will decisions to bring about His own will for good, repeats over and over.

[Larry N Moore]

1Sam 15:11: I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not carried out My commands.

Well, if God knew that Saul was going to "turned back from following Me" why would He make him king? And why have regret for doing so when He knew beforehand what Saul was going to do? Doesn't make sense to me -- but that's just me.

[another spot]

1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1Sa 8:7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

Maybe there wasn’t anyone else, or prophets other than Samuel. From reading the section, it doesn’t sound like it. At this stage the people didn’t care about God. You can see by their attitude they weren’t listening to Samuel either. Perhaps a government type rulership was the only option. Since Israel as a nation had rejected God, there wouldn’t be much to pick from for leadership. David was only what, fourteen (?) when he took on Goliath during Saul’s reign.

I liked your post about God, Larry. I thought about this:

Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Psa 139:18 [if] I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

[Sunesis]

Dan, read Larry's post again. He said "Just because God has limitations...."

Those are his words, not mine.

If Larry's God has limitations - and that's what Larry believes (this is a current Geer teaching - I know of no other offshoots personally teaching this, thus, I do not believe Larry was being truthful to you when he stated he has no affiliations with anyone to you) - who am I to question what he believes? Good for him for believing that.

He says his God has "limitations." Thus, his God is smaller than mine.

My God does not have limitations. Who am I, as his creation, to decide what "limitations" my creator has? Who are any of us to impose "limitations" on God - it is total pride and arrogance of the creation to do so.

Larry's reply to my post, was - as is his constant habit - another questioning, you are wrong, blah, blah post designed to get someone to argue with him. No more, he can find other people to sucker into going round and round with him.

Dan, you say maybe I'm not listening?

What are you talking about? If to Larry, well you are correct. If to God - don't even go there. You know nothing about my relationship with him and Christ.

After seeing how Larry has recently joined GS and destroyed pretty much every thread he's ever been on with obtuse questions, strawmans, yelling at those he disagrees with, with a ridiculous avatar - projecting he's some "wise one," why, at this point would I want to listen to him? I could care less about what he thinks. Why should I respect him?

Maybe I'm not listening to him - that's correct - and I will continue to skip over his posts. I will not waste my time with him anymore. Done.

You can kowtow to him all you want - I thought you were smarter than that.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Sunesis

[Larry N Moore]

<snip>

My. You have some real issues. I don't expect you to believe me. That's not a requirement when one decides to participate in the Doctrinal forum. Obviously you have a very difficult time having someone disagree with your idea of what God is and what He's capable of doing. If I'm not mistaken -- isn't that part of what you people complain about -- the TWI mindset -- not being able to think for yourself but rather being required to think just like me me me.

And now you want to insult Dan. Shame on you.

[anotherDan]

Hey, Sunesis, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound like that.

OK, I now see that your God is bigger than Larry's, because his has limitations.

I don't think I kowtow to Larry at all. I only kowtow to TBone. Larry and I are friends. I actually agree with you that he can be caustic and needling with his posts. Even obtuse, maybe... did you use that word? Maybe as an adjective... obtuse posts or something. But we get along pretty well. Why not? Life's too short, etc. He took me to task for being rather obtuse myself, and he happened to be right.

I thought it was kind of humorous that you were saying in essence, "My God's bigger than yours." I didn't mean to offend you by the comment, and I see that I have. Again, sorry. I'd like to think we could be friends. Certainly, you have posted a lot of stuff that I appreciated. You've got a great heart and good insight.

My interest in this thread is waning, too, and it's not because of any one in particular. I may not check back for responses, if there are any, so don't think I'm ignoring anyone. I'll be around. And WWolf, thanks. Good discussion!

Edited September 7, 2007 by anotherDan

[Larry N Moore]

He took me to task for being rather obtuse myself, and he happened to be right.

I'm always right! Of course there was that one time when I thought I was wrong -- but I was wrong about that -- I was right then also. ;)