If what you think isn't important then why don't you butt out?
Tell Ya what Bro -- I will if you will. Deal?? ;)
For what it's worth -- I read the letter that Dr. Juedes wrote, and I'm seeing a LOT of misrepresentation from (some) folks here of what he said, and how it was meant to be read. talk about taking things out of context!
Maybe I'm mixing you and Oldies up in the plethora of posts happening here ----
butt -- when you tell me to butt out, perhaps you should do the same, eh??
Pull your head out of it -- and smell some FRESH air for a change.
You REALLY could use a different point of view. :)
For what it's worth -- I read the letter that Dr. Juedes wrote, and I'm seeing a LOT of misrepresentation from (some) folks here of what he said, and how it was meant to be read. talk about taking things out of context!
Maybe I'm mixing you and Oldies up in the plethora of posts happening here ----
butt -- when you tell me to butt out, perhaps you should do the same, eh??
Pull your head out of it -- and smell some FRESH air for a change.
You REALLY could use a different point of view. :)
It took you all this time to come up with that crap? You're slow.
Seeing as this thread is essentially about doctrine and Paw hasn't found it necessary to move it in the appropriate forum -- I'll quote you one passage that supports (at least imo) the claim that we can believe FOR things.
Matthew 9:27 - 29 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
As you can see from the above passage -- no praying was involved.
OTOH - the man *did* go to Jesus for healing.
Prayer is a request. We pray to the one that had the power to do. They asked for healing.
WHEN you pray believe. They had faith - which Jesus acknowleged.
Well, if faith in God is a requirement can you explain how Naaman (1 Kings 5) managed to get healed of his leprosy?
I guess Naaman did become a fan of God after he was healed...he certainly didn't do the seven time dip out of love...though even after the event he had to ask for a break so he could bow to another god and keep his job (and life, maybe).
I remember once in a softball game when i was younger, I was mad about not being put in. When i finally did get into the game, I decided I was going to smash a hit off the pitcher. Now normally, I have no control whatsoever about where the ball goes...if i manage to hit it at all. I would spray it to all fields and pop up a lot. But that time, I had no other thought and I knew where that ball was going off my bat, though I wasnt praying to God or anyone else. And right off the pitcher's leg it went (I wasn't A-rod; I didnt hit him hard enough to really hurt him).
Of course in the case of Naaman, it could be said that the minister of the healing had a connection with God.
Granted, I haven't read every post on this thread. By the time I got to the 2nd page it occurred to me that I know nothing of Dr. J. Did he take the class? Did he ever take a stand? Did he take the class, go to college and decide he could disprove everything taught by VPW? His unbelief is astounding. And the people infected by his poison are being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine IMHO.
One point of slight disagreement I would like to make is Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and the others do not teach a "no God needed" doctrine like VPW did. In fact, if you really listen to them, they teach that this law only applies to what has been promised by God. They are also much more inteligent about how to reach that point and what to do if you are not there. Copeland and Hagin have both gone to doctors and told people they have done so. They also encourage people to go to the doctor. Their main focus is to operate at the level you are at. If you feel you need to go to a doctor - go, but trust God to work through that doctor.
They do teach the power of words and that negative words can tear down your personal trust in God and positive words will help you build up your trust. (Sometimes the Copelands go a little overboard here.) But what they teach is really much different than the law of believing as taught by VPW.
I will admit however that often people go off with half-cocked notions about what these people are teaching. They hear part of the message, (the part they want to hear) and don't hear the rest. There is also a danger teaching believing (temporary) over faith (long term trust). The focus of our trust is God, not healing or deliverance. but God. When we teach via examples in our own lives, we sometimes lose that focus.
This is the post that got my attention. Keith points out the contrast between VPW and these trinitarians. I am aware there are some trinitarians in here. But Gee Willakers!
Then I remembered Proverbs 6 where this remarkable section exposes the real work going on.
"16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
I know the whole believing topic got taken to extremes. Good Greif! I remember hearing people claim they could speak in tongues and people would get healed. (Never saw that documented).
For those of you with the mindset that VPW was all about false doctrine and plagerism, it would seem you are getting your dander up over a topic with no solution. Screaming at the sun won't make it go away. Proverbs 11:1 says,
1A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
I always understood God set up the law of believing and that believing His Word produced results. If I didn't get the desired results I learned to moved on to enjoy God and His Word anyway.
While I think of it... is Dr. J. a trinitarian? His scholastic credentials hold no weight for me if he is sowing discord. And everything I've seen in this thread is indicative of the fact.
The facts are that human beings are not capable of pulling off miraculous healings without the help of one spiritual power or the other. We are not able to accomplish that without help from either God or the Adversary.
In light of that, the theory presented to us by Vp, "believing equals receiving", and "it works for saint and sinner alike", fails the acid test.
We don't have that kind of power at our disposal, it has to be a gift from God. I can ask for whatever I need, and have confidence that God can pull it off, I don't think I can earn it by my magic believing abilities, at the least, I am humble enough to admit that.
One revealing passage about believing is the story of a man who brought his son to Jesus' disciples to be healed of a demon who tried to destroy him (Matthew 7:14f, Mark 9). The disciples could not help, so when Jesus arrived the father said
"'if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us.' And Jesus said to him, 'If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.' Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, 'I believe, help my unbelief!'" (9:22-24)
The father outright admitted that he had as much unbelief as belief. This would be a great time for a "believing" teacher to correct his negative confession and tell him to overcome his unbelief with believing in order to be healed. Jesus did no such thing. Instead, he healed the boy, knowing that the man was unbelieving to a great degree. Everyone can find comfort in this story, because in truth we are all a mixture of faith and doubt. It reminds us that God is gracious and responds to the smallest amount of faith (even a mustard-seed size), and does not wait passively as we work to generate enough believing to be healed or blessed.
Oddly enough, Jesus does not censure the father or child for their unbelieving. He does censure his disciples who later asked why they could not cast out the demon. Jesus answered, because of your little faith" (17:20). Jesus censured the apostles who by experience with Jesus should have been able to minister to the boy, not the needy man and boy. If anything, teachers of believing should be censuring themselves when they cannot minister healing to people, not censure the sick who come to God and his ministers looking for help. The people who came to Jesus for healing showed faith by that act alone.
Hmmm, this account even has a healthy dose of unbelief mixed in, which didn't derail the healing either.
The one scolding the loudest for the VPW followers to think for themselves does nothing more than to parrot a former top Way leaders anti-believing teachings. With no credit given to the "teacher" isn't it plagerism??????
The simple truth of the matter is that there is no such thing as the law of believing.
It was a tool used by twi to control people. If something turned out right, twi took the bows for teaching the person "the law of believing" but if it turned out wrong, it was the person's fault for not believing...it was a catch 22...no matter what happened, twi was off the hook.
The "faith" that is mentioned in the bible is far removed from anything that twi taught.
It's threads like this that expose those who still suffer from "waybrain"...(oldiesman and Larry M)
Folks...there is no power in your mind that effects things externally. To believe that is a form of witchcraft.
The simple truth of the matter is that there is no such thing as the law of believing.
It was a tool used by twi to control people. If something turned out right, twi took the bows for teaching the person "the law of believing" but if it turned out wrong, it was the person's fault for not believing...it was a catch 22...no matter what happened, twi was off the hook.
The "faith" that is mentioned in the bible is far removed from anything that twi taught.
It's threads like this that expose those who still suffer from "waybrain"...(oldiesman and Larry M)
Folks...there is no power in your mind that effects things externally. To believe that is a form of witchcraft.
I say the word 'law' in law of believing is hyperbole. If you believe consistently you will get consistent results; positive or negative, saint or sinner. The word 'law' doesn't mean that every jot and tittle of what you believe is put under a microscope. Interesting that Jeudes condemns VP for exascerbating the woman's grief whose son died by getting hit by a car, but then he does the same thing by analyzing VPs cancer. Nice double standard.
Jeudes is definitely misrepresenting VP; he quotes a few passages from the pfal book and then slants it in a direction that VP never intended. Certain people in twi may have gotten anal with people about their believing mostly at the twig level, but VP in pfal wasn't mean; he knew that people need love if they are down. In his tape 'the healing word' he says that everybody will eventually die, believing or no, and exhorted us to just love each other.
Also, VP died in '85, not '84, and he was 68, not 67. 67 is young? So now we're getting anal and legalistic about how long people live. I'll be happy if I make it to 67. Then I can get free coffee from McDonalds.
I notice that in the bible a lot of believed for miracles occur when people are doing service to God's people. Example: Jesus walking on the water to get to his troubled disciples. I've heard many stories about wows who got housing and jobs when all the odds were against them. How about George Meuller on that ship when the fog got lifted? Parking spaces? If I have to walk an extra thousand feet to get into value city or wherever then it must be OK with God.
So am I where I am today because of my own believing?
Sometimes things turn out the way we plan them to, sometimes they don't.
If I am "believing" to drive to Texas in my car, I step on the gas and follow the map...if I get there, it's because I decided to drive there and followed through on the plan...BUT... if my car breaks down and I get stuck in Arkansas, or if a semi truck plows into me and kills me, or the police stop me in Louisanna and mistakingly arrest me and throw me into prison...what is it?...The way twi explained it was to say that if you didn't get to Texas, it's because you didn't really "believe"...you only "mentally ascended"...The way I explain it is that believing does not effect external forces and that you're believing something does not mean it is going to happen.
We may "believe" that something is going to happen and we can take action to facilitate it happening...but external forces may stop it from happening no matter what we "believe"....Our "believing" DOES NOT effect external forces.
"It was the fear in the heart of that mother that killed her child"...What about the believing of the guy who drove the car?
What happens when people believe opposite things? A soldier believes that he will survive the battlefield, while his enemy sitting in the tree with a sniper's rifle believes he is going to kill the guy...they both cannot happen! Twi explained it by saying some "believing" is "bigger" than other believing...
Twi had to invent explanations for the obvious illogic of their doctrine...and why it didn't work.
I recall once at the roa...it was raining like crazy and Wierwille proclaimed that his believing to stop the rain was not strong enough to counter all the negative believing from the thousands in attendance.
In other words, it was not Wierwille's fault that it rained...it was the fault of everyone else!
The name of Jesus becomes like a magic formula to get what you want. It is used almost like spells are used to accomplish the desired results, nearly breaking the command to not take the Lord’s name in vain. The name is used, but at the cost of the relationship with the one who said “abide in Me.”
Here Dr. Juedes clearly suggests that those of us in twi weren't abiding in Christ.
But how in the world does he know that? Was he around day by day to judge?
Dr. Juedes appears also to accuse fellow Christians of "almost'" applying spells, witchcraft formulas, using the name of Jesus like magic.
Just ask yourself, was this the mindset you had when you were in twi? A life of spells, without God at the center of your life?
Not me; that was not my heart or intent.
My heart and mindset then and now still is "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 5:20
I don't know about anybody else, but I feel folks have been maligned for activities they supposedly engaged in. I think its a false accusation by Dr. Juedes.
Not to mention maligning, judging many brothers and sisters in Christ, folks who Dr. Juedes never even met and doesn't know. It's one of those one-size-fits-all blanket judgments that I can't agree with and must repudiate.
I recall once at the roa...it was raining like crazy and Wierwille proclaimed that his believing to stop the rain was not strong enough to counter all the negative believing from the thousands in attendance.
In other words, it was not Wierwille's fault that it rained...it was the fault of everyone else!
I say it was all bullsh *t...
I say your recollection is bs. I was there and that's NOT what he said.
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dmiller
Prayer means (simply), to ask. :)
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Larry N Moore
:) So if I ask you to heal me I don't need to believe in God, do I?
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dmiller
According to docvic you don't.
(Remember his stow-ry about the guy in India???) ;)
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Larry N Moore
I didn't ask VP. I asked you.
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dmiller
And why would I matter??
Docvic and his (cough!! cough!!) LAW of BELIEVING is what is being questioned here.
Not what I think. :)
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Larry N Moore
If what you think isn't important then why don't you butt out?
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dmiller
Tell Ya what Bro -- I will if you will. Deal?? ;)
For what it's worth -- I read the letter that Dr. Juedes wrote, and I'm seeing a LOT of misrepresentation from (some) folks here of what he said, and how it was meant to be read. talk about taking things out of context!
Maybe I'm mixing you and Oldies up in the plethora of posts happening here ----
butt -- when you tell me to butt out, perhaps you should do the same, eh??
Pull your head out of it -- and smell some FRESH air for a change.
You REALLY could use a different point of view. :)
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Larry N Moore
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doojable
OTOH - the man *did* go to Jesus for healing.
Prayer is a request. We pray to the one that had the power to do. They asked for healing.
WHEN you pray believe. They had faith - which Jesus acknowleged.
The model has not been broken.
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Larry N Moore
Which came first -- their request or their believing?
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dmiller
Naw --not slow -- negligent maybe, but not slow. :)
In between postings here at GSC --
I put up another bunch on a banjo board, and a fiddle board I belong to as well.
I do have an (on-line life -- such as that may be),
outside of GSC.
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Lifted Up
I guess Naaman did become a fan of God after he was healed...he certainly didn't do the seven time dip out of love...though even after the event he had to ask for a break so he could bow to another god and keep his job (and life, maybe).
I remember once in a softball game when i was younger, I was mad about not being put in. When i finally did get into the game, I decided I was going to smash a hit off the pitcher. Now normally, I have no control whatsoever about where the ball goes...if i manage to hit it at all. I would spray it to all fields and pop up a lot. But that time, I had no other thought and I knew where that ball was going off my bat, though I wasnt praying to God or anyone else. And right off the pitcher's leg it went (I wasn't A-rod; I didnt hit him hard enough to really hurt him).
Of course in the case of Naaman, it could be said that the minister of the healing had a connection with God.
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YID
Granted, I haven't read every post on this thread. By the time I got to the 2nd page it occurred to me that I know nothing of Dr. J. Did he take the class? Did he ever take a stand? Did he take the class, go to college and decide he could disprove everything taught by VPW? His unbelief is astounding. And the people infected by his poison are being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine IMHO.
This is the post that got my attention. Keith points out the contrast between VPW and these trinitarians. I am aware there are some trinitarians in here. But Gee Willakers!
Then I remembered Proverbs 6 where this remarkable section exposes the real work going on.
"16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
I know the whole believing topic got taken to extremes. Good Greif! I remember hearing people claim they could speak in tongues and people would get healed. (Never saw that documented).
For those of you with the mindset that VPW was all about false doctrine and plagerism, it would seem you are getting your dander up over a topic with no solution. Screaming at the sun won't make it go away. Proverbs 11:1 says,
1A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
I always understood God set up the law of believing and that believing His Word produced results. If I didn't get the desired results I learned to moved on to enjoy God and His Word anyway.
While I think of it... is Dr. J. a trinitarian? His scholastic credentials hold no weight for me if he is sowing discord. And everything I've seen in this thread is indicative of the fact.
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now I see
The facts are that human beings are not capable of pulling off miraculous healings without the help of one spiritual power or the other. We are not able to accomplish that without help from either God or the Adversary.
In light of that, the theory presented to us by Vp, "believing equals receiving", and "it works for saint and sinner alike", fails the acid test.
We don't have that kind of power at our disposal, it has to be a gift from God. I can ask for whatever I need, and have confidence that God can pull it off, I don't think I can earn it by my magic believing abilities, at the least, I am humble enough to admit that.
Hmmm, this account even has a healthy dose of unbelief mixed in, which didn't derail the healing either.
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waysider
Well, let's see now.
1. Believing works for saint and sinner alike.
------------BUT----------------------
2. You didn't get what you were believing for because you were out of fellowship.
(I was going to put more space in between those two statements but it seemed like they were already miles apart.)
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Ductape
The one scolding the loudest for the VPW followers to think for themselves does nothing more than to parrot a former top Way leaders anti-believing teachings. With no credit given to the "teacher" isn't it plagerism??????
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GrouchoMarxJr
The simple truth of the matter is that there is no such thing as the law of believing.
It was a tool used by twi to control people. If something turned out right, twi took the bows for teaching the person "the law of believing" but if it turned out wrong, it was the person's fault for not believing...it was a catch 22...no matter what happened, twi was off the hook.
The "faith" that is mentioned in the bible is far removed from anything that twi taught.
It's threads like this that expose those who still suffer from "waybrain"...(oldiesman and Larry M)
Folks...there is no power in your mind that effects things externally. To believe that is a form of witchcraft.
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pawtucket
Brilliant!
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likeaneagle
So am I where I am today because of my own believing?
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johniam
So moving a mountain is hyperbole?
I say the word 'law' in law of believing is hyperbole. If you believe consistently you will get consistent results; positive or negative, saint or sinner. The word 'law' doesn't mean that every jot and tittle of what you believe is put under a microscope. Interesting that Jeudes condemns VP for exascerbating the woman's grief whose son died by getting hit by a car, but then he does the same thing by analyzing VPs cancer. Nice double standard.
Jeudes is definitely misrepresenting VP; he quotes a few passages from the pfal book and then slants it in a direction that VP never intended. Certain people in twi may have gotten anal with people about their believing mostly at the twig level, but VP in pfal wasn't mean; he knew that people need love if they are down. In his tape 'the healing word' he says that everybody will eventually die, believing or no, and exhorted us to just love each other.
Also, VP died in '85, not '84, and he was 68, not 67. 67 is young? So now we're getting anal and legalistic about how long people live. I'll be happy if I make it to 67. Then I can get free coffee from McDonalds.
I notice that in the bible a lot of believed for miracles occur when people are doing service to God's people. Example: Jesus walking on the water to get to his troubled disciples. I've heard many stories about wows who got housing and jobs when all the odds were against them. How about George Meuller on that ship when the fog got lifted? Parking spaces? If I have to walk an extra thousand feet to get into value city or wherever then it must be OK with God.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Sometimes things turn out the way we plan them to, sometimes they don't.
If I am "believing" to drive to Texas in my car, I step on the gas and follow the map...if I get there, it's because I decided to drive there and followed through on the plan...BUT... if my car breaks down and I get stuck in Arkansas, or if a semi truck plows into me and kills me, or the police stop me in Louisanna and mistakingly arrest me and throw me into prison...what is it?...The way twi explained it was to say that if you didn't get to Texas, it's because you didn't really "believe"...you only "mentally ascended"...The way I explain it is that believing does not effect external forces and that you're believing something does not mean it is going to happen.
We may "believe" that something is going to happen and we can take action to facilitate it happening...but external forces may stop it from happening no matter what we "believe"....Our "believing" DOES NOT effect external forces.
"It was the fear in the heart of that mother that killed her child"...What about the believing of the guy who drove the car?
What happens when people believe opposite things? A soldier believes that he will survive the battlefield, while his enemy sitting in the tree with a sniper's rifle believes he is going to kill the guy...they both cannot happen! Twi explained it by saying some "believing" is "bigger" than other believing...
Twi had to invent explanations for the obvious illogic of their doctrine...and why it didn't work.
I recall once at the roa...it was raining like crazy and Wierwille proclaimed that his believing to stop the rain was not strong enough to counter all the negative believing from the thousands in attendance.
In other words, it was not Wierwille's fault that it rained...it was the fault of everyone else!
I say it was all bullsh *t...
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Sunesis
Hey Yid, newbie, you know nothing of Juedes?
Why are you so ignorant?
If you want to know, why don't you go to his site and read about him?
Or, why don't you take the time to do a search here?
He's come on here, given his credentials and talked to whom ever wanted to talk to him.
Why don't you go ask him those questions yourself?????
So, which group are you with - Geer's or are you still in TWI?
Your self-righteous, smug, nastiness gives you away.
Which group are you with?
We've got Geerites and innies here who love to spew their poison over simple discussions.
Since you are the same ilk, which group are you?
Don't lie and say you've been out for years and are not affiliated with anyone.
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oldiesman
Dr. Juedes wrote the following:
Here Dr. Juedes clearly suggests that those of us in twi weren't abiding in Christ.
But how in the world does he know that? Was he around day by day to judge?
Dr. Juedes appears also to accuse fellow Christians of "almost'" applying spells, witchcraft formulas, using the name of Jesus like magic.
Just ask yourself, was this the mindset you had when you were in twi? A life of spells, without God at the center of your life?
Not me; that was not my heart or intent.
My heart and mindset then and now still is "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 5:20
I don't know about anybody else, but I feel folks have been maligned for activities they supposedly engaged in. I think its a false accusation by Dr. Juedes.
Not to mention maligning, judging many brothers and sisters in Christ, folks who Dr. Juedes never even met and doesn't know. It's one of those one-size-fits-all blanket judgments that I can't agree with and must repudiate.
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Larry N Moore
I say your recollection is bs. I was there and that's NOT what he said.
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