And you and Dr. Juedes are misrepresenting Wierwille when you say his teaching was atheistic.
You and Dr. Juedes are ignoring the context in which believing was taught, and when you ignore context, you can pull anything out of its context to prove anything.
SHAME ON YOU BOTH. SHAME SHAME SHAME
I wear your condemnation as a badge of honor, Oldiesman. You are devoid of moral authority and are nothing more than an apologist for a predator against God's people.
I wear your condemnation as a badge of honor, Oldiesman. You are devoid of moral authority and are nothing more than an apologist for a predator against God's people.
Wow! I did not think that there would be so much debate here. I will put my 2 cents in here. You can believe in anything you want. Lets say I want to be a millionare and believe. that does not mean it will happen. What you believe in and what is true are two diffrent things. I can take steps and work hard and try to find ways to be a millionare. You can make it come true the more money you have. having faith and believing are important. If God want to answer you is up to him. We all have freedom of choice.
The notion that "works for saint and sinner alike" is only meant to give the sinner the opportunity to be saved is REVISIONIST FICTION. It is not what Wierwille said or meant when he said the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike. It's simply a convenient way for you and other apologists to dodge the fact that Wierwille was, in fact, teaching something with no biblical foundation.
Wait a second. Jesus Himself said "whosoever".
And whosoever means whosoever.
That's where he got the saint and sinner alike from so it does have a biblical foundation.
Let's say my son has never heard of or seen a baseball or the game. One day I up and hand him a baseball as a gift.
Did he receive this by his believing?
No, and I get what you're saying. But God's ways are different than man's.
God requires believing. If not, then everyone would be saved whether or not they believed.
That's where he got the saint and sinner alike from so it does have a biblical foundation.
yes, but that's not what Wierwille was talking about when he said "saint and sinner alike" and YOU KNOW IT. Stop perpetuating the FICTION that he was only talking about getting saved when he said that.
So then, by the mathematical logic that was inherrent in PFAL, then "receiving equals believing", right? So Deciderator's son MUST have been believing for that baseball!
yes, but that's not what Wierwille was talking about when he said "saint and sinner alike" and YOU KNOW IT. Stop perpetuating the FICTION that he was only talking about getting saved when he said that.
I didn't say that someone else did.
Golly , you seem perterbed today Raffy. Take a breather, relax. I'd offer you a nice cigar if you were here. :)
The effectiveness of believing is entirely dependent on the reliability of that which is believed.
Thus, fear CANNOT be believing in reverse.
Thus, the fear in the heart and life of that mother did not cause her child to die (though her failure to teach him how to cross the street might have played a role).
If Wierwille was ONLY talking about receiving from God, how could FEAR be BELIEVING in reverse? Did God send the car that killed that mother's child?
I seem perturbed? Dude, I'm not the one screaming "shame on you" at the top of my lungs. :)
I didn't say that someone else did.
Golly , you seem perterbed today Raffy. Take a breather, relax. I'd offer you a nice cigar if you were here. :)
Oldiesman, you JUST GOT DONE saying what I claimed you said. I QUOTED you saying it.
What I really like about Grease Spot is that everyone took the same PFAL class and came to the SAME conclusion!
That’s what I call...UNITY of PURPOSE, being of ONE MIND, having the SAME THINGS IN COMMON... <_<
Man, Isn’t it just great to be a part of the Body of Christ! I’m sure GOD is really thankful he spent time putting that “Christ in You” together...Oh yea!
So then, by the mathematical logic that was inherrent in PFAL, then "receiving equals believing", right? So Deciderator's son MUST have been believing for that baseball!
It was taught in the context , the purpose, of believing in and for the promises of God.
Even the "law of believing" has rules and guidelines wherein it must be applied. In PFAL, it was taught in the greater context of "How to Receive Anything from God".
If you ignore that, like Dr. Juedes and Raf does, you'll miss the intent of the entire teaching.
Just think about how it was used in twi. Did you ever hear VP teach that one may believe to win the lotto, for example?
Just think about how it was used in twi. Did you ever hear VP teach that one may believe to win the lotto, for example?
Yeah, I'm thinking about how it was used in TWI. Like we were supposed to believe for sunshine for the ROA. Yeah, THAT worked out really well every year...
And I DO remember the Vicster relating HIS experiences at a Las Vegas casino and winning a bunch of money and all, but it was just to test out his revelation receiving abilities I guess.
The rabble were always instructed NOT to gamble, because, obviously there were bigger NEEDS at WayWorld that we should be spending our money on...
I thought it was "OK" to pray for "carloads of money"..
:)
Nothing like a shortcut to make up for the lack of good, hard, work..
I'm "believing" for a Master's degree in mathematics. Think if I pray hard enough.. tithe, or give fifteen or twenty percent, I should have it, in about three more years.. with some hard work.
kinda like the Beverly Hillbillies. I remember Granny's "miracle cure" for the common cold. Had docs coming from all over to investigate it.. Jed said something like "yeah it's a miracle.. you take Granny's concoction and inside of six weeks you'll start to feel like a spring chicken.."
The effectiveness of believing is entirely dependent on the reliability of that which is believed.
Thus, fear CANNOT be believing in reverse.
Thus, the fear in the heart and life of that mother did not cause her child to die (though her failure to teach him how to cross the street might have played a role).
If Wierwille was ONLY talking about receiving from God, how could FEAR be BELIEVING in reverse?
As I recall it was doubt, worry and fear, issues in unbelief. Unbelief defeats the promises of God.
He was explaining what happened when one did not receive the promises of God, he taught it was because of fear, along with ignorance and wrong teaching.
What I really like about Grease Spot is that everyone took the same PFAL class and came to the SAME conclusion!
Bumpy, most of the folks who hung around twi for years did come to the same conclusion as me. That's why they hung around for years, they liked it and it worked well for them.
Only now, when Wierwille's dead and his credibility is in question do folks question their involvement. I am not confused about this.
Bumpy, most of the folks who hung around twi for years did come to the same conclusion as me. That's why they hung around for years, they liked it and it worked well for them.
Only now, when Wierwille's dead and his credibility is in question do folks question their involvement. I am not confused about this.
I thought "The Law of Believing" was under question here. People question their involvement because after three decades of believing, the sick are still sick.
Bumpy, most of the folks who hung around twi for years did come to the same conclusion as me. That's why they hung around for years, they liked it and it worked well for them.
Only now, when Wierwille's dead and his credibility is in question do folks question their involvement. I am not confused about this.
Oldiesman, "if a fool & his $$" are soon parted, I will bet you the house that your last prophetic words here...will be to say the least...shot down from more gun placements than you can imagine!!
If you get what you believe because of God, then you get what you fear because of God, too.
Or, option b, it makes no doctrinal sense.
Wierwille taught that you get what you believe, whether you're a saint or sinner, whether it's fire engine red curtains or the death of your child. God was not in the believing=receiving equation, BUT you could use the believing=receiving equation to get what God promises.
That's what Wierwille taught, revisionism notwithstanding.
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Raf
I wear your condemnation as a badge of honor, Oldiesman. You are devoid of moral authority and are nothing more than an apologist for a predator against God's people.
And a false teacher to boot.
The law of believing is FICTION.
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Bolshevik
The Law of Believing and twi are not God's Will.
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Bumpy
...and the meek shall inherit the earth...
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nyunknown
Wow! I did not think that there would be so much debate here. I will put my 2 cents in here. You can believe in anything you want. Lets say I want to be a millionare and believe. that does not mean it will happen. What you believe in and what is true are two diffrent things. I can take steps and work hard and try to find ways to be a millionare. You can make it come true the more money you have. having faith and believing are important. If God want to answer you is up to him. We all have freedom of choice.
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oldiesman
Wait a second. Jesus Himself said "whosoever".
And whosoever means whosoever.
That's where he got the saint and sinner alike from so it does have a biblical foundation.
No, and I get what you're saying. But God's ways are different than man's.
God requires believing. If not, then everyone would be saved whether or not they believed.
Some people do believe this, btw...
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Raf
yes, but that's not what Wierwille was talking about when he said "saint and sinner alike" and YOU KNOW IT. Stop perpetuating the FICTION that he was only talking about getting saved when he said that.
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George Aar
Wait a minute though.
I thought that "believing equals receiving"?
So then, by the mathematical logic that was inherrent in PFAL, then "receiving equals believing", right? So Deciderator's son MUST have been believing for that baseball!
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Ham
Yep.. and a person can "believe" they are in New York City when they are actually in Boston Harbor, too.
Some people call it "delusional thinking".
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oldiesman
I didn't say that someone else did.
Golly , you seem perterbed today Raffy. Take a breather, relax. I'd offer you a nice cigar if you were here. :)
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Raf
The effectiveness of believing is entirely dependent on the reliability of that which is believed.
Thus, fear CANNOT be believing in reverse.
Thus, the fear in the heart and life of that mother did not cause her child to die (though her failure to teach him how to cross the street might have played a role).
If Wierwille was ONLY talking about receiving from God, how could FEAR be BELIEVING in reverse? Did God send the car that killed that mother's child?
I seem perturbed? Dude, I'm not the one screaming "shame on you" at the top of my lungs. :)
Oldiesman, you JUST GOT DONE saying what I claimed you said. I QUOTED you saying it.
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Bumpy
What I really like about Grease Spot is that everyone took the same PFAL class and came to the SAME conclusion!
That’s what I call...UNITY of PURPOSE, being of ONE MIND, having the SAME THINGS IN COMMON... <_<
Man, Isn’t it just great to be a part of the Body of Christ! I’m sure GOD is really thankful he spent time putting that “Christ in You” together...Oh yea!
How do you say that in Spanish?
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Raf
Mentiras Desde El Primer Dia
I'm sure that's the Spanish translation of PFAL.
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oldiesman
It was taught in the context , the purpose, of believing in and for the promises of God.
Even the "law of believing" has rules and guidelines wherein it must be applied. In PFAL, it was taught in the greater context of "How to Receive Anything from God".
If you ignore that, like Dr. Juedes and Raf does, you'll miss the intent of the entire teaching.
Just think about how it was used in twi. Did you ever hear VP teach that one may believe to win the lotto, for example?
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Bumpy
Sorry...but I'm not sure that's the EXACT translation!
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Raf
No, but I remember him teaching you can believe God to have your child killed by a car.
According to you, anyway.
You revise Wierwille and then accuse those who accurately represent him of distorting the FALSE DOCTRINE he taught.
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doojable
Good Lord people!
The Bible doesn't say that we "believe FOR anything"!
It says, When you pray - believe.
When - that's if you pray
You pray - ummmmm - seems simple to me....
Believe:
Believe that God is good.
Believe that God is smarter than you are.
Believe that God loves you and wants the best for you.
Believe that God will take care of you.
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George Aar
[
Just think about how it was used in twi. Did you ever hear VP teach that one may believe to win the lotto, for example?
Yeah, I'm thinking about how it was used in TWI. Like we were supposed to believe for sunshine for the ROA. Yeah, THAT worked out really well every year...
And I DO remember the Vicster relating HIS experiences at a Las Vegas casino and winning a bunch of money and all, but it was just to test out his revelation receiving abilities I guess.
The rabble were always instructed NOT to gamble, because, obviously there were bigger NEEDS at WayWorld that we should be spending our money on...
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Ham
I thought it was "OK" to pray for "carloads of money"..
:)
Nothing like a shortcut to make up for the lack of good, hard, work..
I'm "believing" for a Master's degree in mathematics. Think if I pray hard enough.. tithe, or give fifteen or twenty percent, I should have it, in about three more years.. with some hard work.
kinda like the Beverly Hillbillies. I remember Granny's "miracle cure" for the common cold. Had docs coming from all over to investigate it.. Jed said something like "yeah it's a miracle.. you take Granny's concoction and inside of six weeks you'll start to feel like a spring chicken.."
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oldiesman
As I recall it was doubt, worry and fear, issues in unbelief. Unbelief defeats the promises of God.
He was explaining what happened when one did not receive the promises of God, he taught it was because of fear, along with ignorance and wrong teaching.
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Ham
Hey.. I walked out of Atlantic City forty bucks ahead. The poor guy with me though.. about seventy behind..
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oldiesman
Bumpy, most of the folks who hung around twi for years did come to the same conclusion as me. That's why they hung around for years, they liked it and it worked well for them.
Only now, when Wierwille's dead and his credibility is in question do folks question their involvement. I am not confused about this.
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Bolshevik
I thought "The Law of Believing" was under question here. People question their involvement because after three decades of believing, the sick are still sick.
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Bumpy
Oldiesman, "if a fool & his $$" are soon parted, I will bet you the house that your last prophetic words here...will be to say the least...shot down from more gun placements than you can imagine!!
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Raf
You get what you believe.
You get what you fear.
If you get what you believe because of God, then you get what you fear because of God, too.
Or, option b, it makes no doctrinal sense.
Wierwille taught that you get what you believe, whether you're a saint or sinner, whether it's fire engine red curtains or the death of your child. God was not in the believing=receiving equation, BUT you could use the believing=receiving equation to get what God promises.
That's what Wierwille taught, revisionism notwithstanding.
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