Abigail, I intentionally did not render judgment in my post but directed folks to merely look at Larry's posts and decide for themselves. What happened here – was the ideal thread for someone having a certain attitude and agenda to display their "talent" - revealing what they're all about – and when it gets nasty the said person can claim folks aren't loving and understanding toward the utter crap they're dishing out…"why, that's just like TWI tactics" -they pull out their "newbie" card which excuses them of all wrongs on their part.
T-bone, I would offer you the same challenge. I have spent roughly two hours reading through Larry's posts. Only I didn't start with the last 10 pages, I started with the FIRST 10 pages.
What I saw is that Larry came here and was honest and respectful in his posts. He offered his opinions, as pretty much everyone here does. He even responded to the initial insults thrown his way with humor and at times apologies.
What I see is a guy who left TWI because he could no longer align himself with the direction it was going in. Who, despite having left, is still thankful for the experience he had and the benefits he received in his life. I see a guy who may never have experienced the deep hurts from TWI that some of us did - and thus may not be fully aware of them, or may even be somewhat skeptical of them because he doesn't yet know many of us well enough to simply "take our word for it". Yet despite that, he also didn't accuse anyone of lying either.
I see a guy who has re-evaluated at least some of what he was taught in PFAL. Tossed some, kept some. Might yet toss more, might not, who knows.
He asked pointed questions. He offered opinions and when they were doctrinal in nature he often offered scriptural references. I read as he was insulted over and over again whenever his doctrinal beliefs were aligned with something VPW taught, despite the fact the he was respectful of other people's beliefs.
In short, what I have seen is group think. People ganging up on him because he did not agree with the group. I see religious intolerance - intolerance of someone simply because he valued some of what he learned from PFAL and VPW. Intolerance of the sort that many of you would never have tolerated had he been espousing Judaism, Paganism, Buddahism, etc. etc.
In other words, what I see happening here is not so different from what happened in TWI. If you offer an opinion that differs from the larger group - you are lambasted and insulted. I am embarassed by the way he was treated by some, back in his earlier days of posting.
There were, of course, those who did not gang up on him as well - and with those people he was never rude or disrespectful. So, perhaps he is using me. But perhaps, just perhaps, he has just offered me the same respect I offered him.
Now, I am not ignorant of his posts over these past few weeks. I am not ignorant of the way he behaved in this thread. But I cannot say his behavior is worse than that of some of the other participants here. I might even go so far as to say his behavior wasn't even as bad as the behavior of some of the participants in this thread.
And you know, T-bone, I like you and the Mrs. I don't want to fight with the two of you, heck I don't really want to fight with anyone. I like Dot, I like Dooj, I can't think of a single person who has posted in this thread that I dislike.
But, I can't sell myself out for popularity either. I can't just sit back and say nothing simply because that would be the easier thing to do. I think what has happened here is wrong. I think Larry was treated very badly, almost from the beginning, and not because he was rude or had an attitude, but because he simply doesn't have the same anomosity toward TWI and VPW that so many of us here do.
In short, what I have seen is group think. People ganging up on him because he did not agree with the group. I see religious intolerance - intolerance of someone simply because he valued some of what he learned from PFAL and VPW.
I respect you and I like you but I do not agree with you regarding Larry.
He can disagree. And it seems that you seem to think this thread, and absolute frustration, is all about people disagreeing with his views; it is not it is his condescending. Holier than thou, know-it-all attitude which has angered people.
Yet, you keep going back to the argument of “group think” and truly I do not see how that fits here. It may have in the past, in other threads, on different days. But I really do not believe, for a second, it fits with Larry, nor do I believe it has been the complaint.
He has come into a community with a slice and dice attitude and really savors the attention he gets. It is not the words it is the attitude and I feel T-bone, Tonto, and I have repeatedly stated that. T-bone and Tonto more effectively than I.
It behooves me how you can view people who disagree with Larry as a “group think” but dismiss or not even acknowledge Mike, Oldiesman, Joniam, What the hey, and Another Dan as “group think”.
Because if we are going to swing the topic from Larry’s attitude to accusing people of group think then let’s do it. Each time someone who KNEW VPW, or even served shoulder to shoulder with him reveals a caustic, diabolic nature, the “group think” people such as Oldies, Joniam, Jeaniam, What the hey etc... all jump on the band wagon, to defend VPW, because he taught them a video or audio class some years back. They forsake anything other than they got something from the class and fellowshiped with “like- minded” believers.
(Heck. We all liked the class. But some day, after many many people share it was taken from BG Leonard -- you expect people to have a light bulb moment, rather than to FIGHT to hold onto error.)
We have had, and currently have people on here, who KNEW VP stole the class and that the “group think” (that VPW ONLY contributed to their lives people), do not entertain the PROOF or testimonies – cause after all – they stood on VP’s shoulders and found God.
GOD is the one who called them, and IMO, VP got in the way of the fullness of that calling.
But nobody can even approach plagiarism, rape, stealing “the prophecy” etc. from VP --- because after all, "VP is the ONE who taught me the class via video." (He taught a stolen class, give praise to God for the contents and dam n the method?)
In the Waydale days, Ralph D. shared the horror stories and the “group think” X-Wafers argued with him as if he were a heretic.
So, Sunesis shares what she knows via Jim Dopp, and I know from personal experience and also spoke with Jimmy. And Larry posts the little man banging his head against a board.
But, that seems to be okay with you. The fact that HE (Larry) comes out and pretty much says she is making the stuff up, even after Skyrider and John Juedes share things to SHOW him the man VP really was – Larry fights, not disagrees, but uses huge letters to show he might still be IN TWI.
So, you seem to consider the fact that they are sharing FACTS and they are the same facts --- group think?
I feel you have the players mixed up on the “group think” and maybe you need to ask yourself why? As you seem to suggest, others introspectively, see how they may have handled things differently.
But we are not even talking about GROUPthink here; it is Larry’s incessant posts, the surly questions and the nastiness. He did not even KNOW VP, but he is an expert, but those who knew him, are really the “Group think” people, to you?
And because Larry insults them and they/we all react with indignation – that is “group think?” -- It is a human response to him. Perhaps, it is “Group think” – of the human race
He was so incredibly mean to Rascal and I sat by thinking, well, this is not my fight.
But when the forums became the “Larry N Moore” show, and people I love were injured, I did speak up. And I will continue to do so.
I love you dear, I really, really do, but in this case I simply feel you are wrong.
And you may feel the same way about me, so we will have to disagree
Tonto, dear, thank you for the love you've shown to me.
My "groupthink" bible verses:
“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” (Eph 3:16-19 AV)
Abigail, I don't believe it is a group think attack against Larry. His insults are back-handed and sneaky and leaves him an out for those who don't agree with him and can be taken either way. It's not honest. And you might have noticed how he was with men as opposed to women. Pretty obvious.
Personally I just quit talking to 'Larry-dear' because of his attitude as Dot has pointed out.
And he will not talk with me anyway, cause I question him directly, to which he will not directly answer.
T-bone, I would offer you the same challenge. I have spent roughly two hours reading through Larry's posts. Only I didn't start with the last 10 pages, I started with the FIRST 10 pages.
What I saw is that Larry came here and was honest and respectful in his posts. He offered his opinions, as pretty much everyone here does. He even responded to the initial insults thrown his way with humor and at times apologies.
What I see is a guy who left TWI because he could no longer align himself with the direction it was going in. Who, despite having left, is still thankful for the experience he had and the benefits he received in his life. I see a guy who may never have experienced the deep hurts from TWI that some of us did - and thus may not be fully aware of them, or may even be somewhat skeptical of them because he doesn't yet know many of us well enough to simply "take our word for it". Yet despite that, he also didn't accuse anyone of lying either.
I see a guy who has re-evaluated at least some of what he was taught in PFAL. Tossed some, kept some. Might yet toss more, might not, who knows.
He asked pointed questions. He offered opinions and when they were doctrinal in nature he often offered scriptural references. I read as he was insulted over and over again whenever his doctrinal beliefs were aligned with something VPW taught, despite the fact the he was respectful of other people's beliefs.
In short, what I have seen is group think. People ganging up on him because he did not agree with the group. I see religious intolerance - intolerance of someone simply because he valued some of what he learned from PFAL and VPW. Intolerance of the sort that many of you would never have tolerated had he been espousing Judaism, Paganism, Buddahism, etc. etc.
In other words, what I see happening here is not so different from what happened in TWI. If you offer an opinion that differs from the larger group - you are lambasted and insulted. I am embarassed by the way he was treated by some, back in his earlier days of posting.
There were, of course, those who did not gang up on him as well - and with those people he was never rude or disrespectful. So, perhaps he is using me. But perhaps, just perhaps, he has just offered me the same respect I offered him.
Now, I am not ignorant of his posts over these past few weeks. I am not ignorant of the way he behaved in this thread. But I cannot say his behavior is worse than that of some of the other participants here. I might even go so far as to say his behavior wasn't even as bad as the behavior of some of the participants in this thread.
And you know, T-bone, I like you and the Mrs. I don't want to fight with the two of you, heck I don't really want to fight with anyone. I like Dot, I like Dooj, I can't think of a single person who has posted in this thread that I dislike.
But, I can't sell myself out for popularity either. I can't just sit back and say nothing simply because that would be the easier thing to do. I think what has happened here is wrong. I think Larry was treated very badly, almost from the beginning, and not because he was rude or had an attitude, but because he simply doesn't have the same anomosity toward TWI and VPW that so many of us here do.
I took your challenge too T-Bone and I agree 100% with Abi post.
Where as I do love you All very much; I feel that I am taking a far larger risk in stating what I see and believe. I haven't been here that long and I am not that well known. I am still reworking the word and other things in my life. I feel like at times , it is a great risk to trust that people are fair, impartial, honest and just!
I also Love the "Newbies and "Lurkers", and remember how I felt as one of them...I remember some of my thoughts and preconceptions of all of you; until I took the time and made the efforts to get to know you and see your hearts!
I think what Abi has given here is a "wake up call" for us All to think about what tactics we do use on this forum!
What exactly do you think that the "Newbies' and Lurkers' think about the way we convey the other side of the story?
Are we just, fair, thoughtful, kind hearted, and loving in our approach...? Do we listen enough?, read thoroughly enough? Do we carefully deliberate our thoughts and motives, before we reply?
Are we perhaps, unknowingly, or not sometimes using tactics previously used on us?
Are we clinging to old fears so tightly that we prejudge, try and convict people without even knowing them or hearing them out?
Are we afraid to allow them to speak because what they say doesn't line up with what we hold most dear?
Where is there true freedom, if the whole story is not allowed to be heard out completely?
Somehow the course, the communication here at GSC will take strong twists and become a very harsh place to even try to reason with...there is a strong drive to prove ourselves right, I think it depends on the listener..which most certainly will never end peacefully, because eventualy anything started with value ends up getting trashed...it is a stronghold...somehow we feel our righteouness hinges on trust and being able to share our deepest feelings which is the most sacred....then people get hurt..I dunno...is there a right and wrong..
I'd also like to add that you, Abigail, did a good job of picking out good parts of his posts and going from there which is a good thing and we should all get better at this.
I've seen a fella on another forum who was excellent at doing this in the face of insults even.
So what you posted is not ignored by me, but I will try to see what you see. And get better at keeping communication progressive and not downhill.
Thank you, RGirl, for getting what it is I am trying to say! For me, this isn't just all about Larry. I think by and large Larry can take care of himself. But what has occured here with him, is a great example of what happens to others here as well. The only real difference being that Larry fought back and so many others simply walk away in silence.
New people who come here and say anything about fond memories get their behinds kicked. New people who come here and acknowledge getting anything good out of PFAL get their behinds kicked. I don't understand how people can expect someone new to simply buy the stories of rape and abuse without being allowed time to get to know the posters first. I sure didn't buy them right off the bat.
How can someone new here simply be expected to toss everything they have believed for years simply because someone they don't know says it is wrong??? New people need time to get to know us and they won't ever take the time if they are attacked right out of the starting gate, simply because they are presently where some of us were a number of years ago.
There are people who lurk here and never post, for fear of being attacked for their POV. There are people who post and then never come back because they were attacked. And Roy, he stuck it out, but man did he take a LOT of crap in the begning, and look how wonderful his heart is!!! What a loss it would have been if he had just given up and walked away, hurt, because of how he was treated when he first came here.
They are people who left or were thrown out of TWI, who are also trying to understand what they experiened. People who are looking for people who will understand. Where do you go to find people who will understand, if not to a group of people who have also been through it? And what do you do when you finally find the people who have also been through it, and then you receive the same treatment you got in TWI, simply because you still believe what you were taught in TWI?
That is why I took this issue up. Not just for Larry, but for all the people who will never say a word here, who will come here and find they are treated no better here than they were in TWI, simpy because they have a different perspective or POV.
And, from my POV, Larry didn't fire the first shots, he simply returned the fire he got - and yes, with a vengeance. But at the same time, some of the very people who have spoken out against Larry the loudest have also continued to engage him, to fire at him as well. If they really find him so incredibly offensive why do they continue to engage him? How have they behaved any better?
Oldiesman and Mike - they take a lot of crap too and they have a lot of personal insults thrown at them as well. The only real difference is that Oldiesman and Mike don't fight back in the same way. They don't return the same fire they receive (the personal insults). If they did, it is entirely possible they would have long ago been in the same position Larry is now in.
I'd also like to add that you, Abigail, did a good job of picking out good parts of his posts and going from there which is a good thing and we should all get better at this.
I've seen a fella on another forum who was excellent at doing this in the face of insults even.
So what you posted is not ignored by me, but I will try to see what you see. And get better at keeping communication progressive and not downhill.
So Thanks for your thoughts.
(((Cman)))) And you did a good job of not throwing out insults in the face of all of this. Of remaining silent instead of throwing fuel on a fire. :)
You know we dont have to agree to maintain mutual friendship and respect. :)
I hope that you don't mind that I post these scriptures that you posted in another thread Dan as it applies here as well.
1Pe 3:8
Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
1Pe 3:9
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10
For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11
Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13
And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17
For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
And Larry should stick around if he can handle change as we all have.
We all thought differently about many things years ago.
I'm past wierwille/pfal bashing but can still point out where there is good and bad.
Here we point out the bad mostly because a lot of us needed it flushed out, and still do at times.
Anyway he should give GSC and us who are GSC another chance.
And we can give him some slack, if he don't hog the boards....lol.
If he can handle it. Some can't because of all the bad being pointed out.
But there is good pointed out too and it's not pounced on as badly as it use to be.
That's what I see anyway.
GreseSpotCafe changes too.
It was viewed by some as pro-pfal for a while imo.
It's kind of balancing out and will continue to change and grow.
It's when the words of pfal are used instead of using different words to communicate that usually starts trouble. That's what sickens some and fires up some.
If we could stop and think and phrase things differently, hearing or speaking, it makes a difference.
Tonto, another one for you. It's not Bob, but it might speak to your Jones
I just found this one. I don't know if you like James. It's not one of his biggest hits, but it's one of my favorites. He later recorded it, of course, with Joni Mitchell singing backup, and it was magic. This is just after he wrote it. Long Ago and Far Away
And Larry should stick around if he can handle change as we all have.
We all thought differently about many things years ago.
I'm past wierwille/pfal bashing but can still point out where there is good and bad.
Here we point out the bad mostly because a lot of us needed it flushed out, and still do at times.
I agree 100%, especially with your last sentence here. I know many people have grown profoundly in their relationship with God because of that flushing out. I just think, sometimes, we need to remember to be more patient and tolerant too. Some people are perfectly content in the relationship they have developed with God via PFAL, and I see no reason to thrust or cooerce them to change that. In my mind, that is God's job if He so desires - not to coerce, but to work the change and growth.
Anyway he should give GSC and us who are GSC another chance.
And we can give him some slack, if he don't hog the boards....lol.
If he can handle it. Some can't because of all the bad being pointed out.
But there is good pointed out too and it's not pounced on as badly as it use to be.
That's what I see anyway.
Again, I agree. And I will say this publicly, though I am walking out on quite a limb here. I PMd with Larry the night things were at their worst in this thread and he was repeatedly posting the "ignore" screen. His perspective at that time was that he wasn't going to return insult with insult, he was simply letting them know he wasn't going to respond to the insults. When I pointed out that he was still, in a sense, responding, he stopped. See, he can listen to reason and think things through. But I know, because I have been there - it can be tough not to fight back (and I say that with respect to people on both sides of this issue - it is damned HARD sometimes not to return the fire when you think someone is attacking you!!)
At the same time, while he was trying to "ignore" the insults - others were cutting and pasting those insults in what appeared to be an attempt to be sure he saw them. I don't get that either - I don't see the profit in it or how it is in any way helpful. That is just my POV - mileage may vary :D
GreseSpotCafe changes too.
It was viewed by some as pro-pfal for a while imo.
It's kind of balancing out and will continue to change and grow.
It's when the words of pfal are used instead of using different words to communicate that usually starts trouble. That's what sickens some and fires up some.
If we could stop and think and phrase things differently, hearing or speaking, it makes a difference.
Peace love and all that to you all.
And again, a profoundly insightful statement "when the words of PFAL are used instead of different words that usually starts the trouble. At the "Odd List" we called those "trigger words." They trigger negative and reactionary emotions in those of us who were hurt the worst by TWI. I understand that, really. To many of us, the words of PFAL are "fighting words." They drag up all those old emotions, all the old hurts.
At the same time though, someone newly out of TWI, someone who has only recently begun to re-evalute what they have been taught - those people are speaking in the only language they know. They haven't had time to "learn different words" to say the same thing. They aren't even aware that those words are "trigger words" to many of us here. So again, some degree of patience and tolerance is required, IMO.
I want to say one last thing, before I leave to spend the rest of the day with my family.
The last month of so has been a great time of transformation and healing in me. Credit first and foremost goes to God, but credit also goes to Dan and Larry. In Dan I often see the person I strive to be. Soft spoken and caring, balanced, thoughtful and thought provoking, intelligent and studied, independant and able to think for himself.
Larry. Larry, asked a lot of pointed, thought provoking, and difficult to answer questions. But I took the time to think those questions through and try to answer them when I could, when I couldn't, I said that too. From Larry, I have found a place of peace regarding my time in TWI, I have found a place of balance.
I no longer feel like I wasted 10 years of my life, I no longer feel hurt, angry, bitter about my time in TWI. I can look back on that time and see the good I received, I can look back and see the mistakes I made that also played a part in the hurt I received. That is not to relieve people of responsibility for the things they did that hurt me. I am simply adding to that mix the responsibility I own for allowing them too - for giving them so large a place in my life and giving myself so small a place in my life. For taking the bait hook, line, and sinker, instead of trusting myself, trusting my mind, trusting what God was telling me above what other people were telling me. Because of Larry, I have found the courage to speak out in this thread the way I have, despite the fact that it may cause me the friendship and respect of some of the people I care about - but which will in the end, allow me to still respect the person I see in the mirror.
Because of that, because of both of them and of course, because of God, I feel like I am FINALLY after 7 years here at the cafe, reaching a place where I am once again comfortable enough to go out in the world and allow more people into my life in real face to face relationship. I am finally reaching a place where I am willing to walk into a religious institution and give it and the people there, more than a cursory glance before finding a reason to dismiss them and leave again.
I know many of you would be happy if Larry never returns. But as for me, I am very saddened by that prospect.
So, I want to thank Larry and Dan for the role they have played in my life, for the things the have helped me to see, in this past month or so.
And with that - I am off to face the real world today. :)
I love you, Abs. I pray that you and Sush are refreshed today. Thanks for all you are; you are precious!
edit: PS to the GS family. I've gotten to know Abi pretty well. We email one another a lot. I don't think I'm revealing secrets to tell you that at times she is sick of heart over some of the things that are said here. It should be pretty evident to anyone who reads her posts. For now, at least, this is Abi's church family. Her byline is "wandering Jew;" she is that, but she is more than that. She is a true child of the living God, just like you, Dot, just like Larry. It's a hard fact that some people simply cannot see another person's heart, though it's laid out right before them. In some cases, ISTM, it's because their own pain is so great that they don't have the "margin" to spare for another who is right beside them. I've been encouraging her to find another church home, but she's neither Jew nor Christian. She does fit in here, where anything goes, and she has stayed even though sometimes it really really hurts. That may be a part of why she feels badly for Larry. She understands.
So, you think Abi gets sick at heart reading things here --- and what? Nobody else does?
I am STILL sick over the way John Juedes was treated here. Let me tell you about John Juedes.
After leaving TWI, and looking over my shoulder for Satan to kill me because I left, I wrote John Juedes a note. I blathered on and on about this horrible secret I had been keeping about VPW and his sexual problems. I had gotten validation with Ralph when he came out to stay with us, but the bondage kept me chained to this horrible gnome and his dirty secrets.
John Jueds took the time to write back and forth with me until I began to heal. The torment of KNOWING what Dr.Weiwille did to girls was crippling. The picture in my head of his old naked body and him having such little regard for God’s woman disturbed me and “kept me in my place” And the nerve of him to say to me, “Do you swallow?” Expecting me to just get between his thighs and DO that stunted my growth as a human being.
John Juedes wrote back and forth with me, He allowed me to be afraid. TO question things and he showed me anwers. This total stranger lovingly stroked my broken heart with a hand of healing as no minister had before or since.
And when he came here and the PEOPLE ridiculed him, treated him as pond scum, because he called a liar a liar, a rapist a rapist and a thief a thief – well it was heart wrenching.
But that doesn’t bother some of you because – let’s help Larry to “fit in”
Give me a break!
And guess what, I am NOT the one who brought up GROUP THINK it was Abi in her defense/testimony about what she feels people DID to Larry.
What about how he treated John Juedes? And if we do want to include the “group think” argument, rather than people had similar opinions – not based on a group but independently arrived at these conclusions, then let us follow Abi’s example and call it “Group think”
They (The groupthink) treated him worse than the mold in the basement because the “precious Vickstar” maybe dethroned.
So, if your intent is to make me feel badly for LARRY – think again.
I am still nauseated over the treatment of John Juedes, of Rascal –(who BTW has been tortured by groupthink each time she starts to post.), of Dmiller who Larry all but called him stupid because Dmiller disagreed with HIM. And don’t even tell me that Cman did not try to be kind. He was wonderful as Larry dissected him, as were many many others. Skyrider who can intellectually topple him, Sunesis whose personal experiences are being denied and treated like a doozie!
But somehow, all of this gets lost here because of poor Larry. He doesn’t fit in.
One thing, I learned YEARS ago, as I gathered people for Twig fellowship and would “love” them, drive them places, buy things for them, some of the loneliest people are lonely because they deserve to be. They have no friends because they run them off, they have no place to go because they destroy every place they have ever been.
That is NOT the case with Abi as she is a delight. But everyone has felt a bit lost and looking for a place to go…. So, I do not have a special “sorry card” written up for Larry just because he did not fit in here. He barged in as a mean pompous azz. AGAIN for those who cannot HEAR – IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. Just making sure everyone sees that as Tonto, T-bone, Cman and others have stated it repeatedly.
There are people who defend the “underdog” because they can relate. It is difficult for those types of people to see a “user” when he is sitting in the same room.
To those people, I truly think you are being fooled. I think you are being played by Larry.
He knows just what to say, and to withhold, in manipulation. Some do not believe that is “him” in the interview, but the “him” who will win the most points.
"Love" him if you want. I choose not to be an enabler. I choose not to be involved, except when he methodically dissects people for having a different opinion than his.
I agree with Sirguessalot, it is like showing up at Cheers, peeing on the bar, and feigning ignorance.
You are being played, may God guard your heart and keep you from harm.
but dismiss or not even acknowledge Mike, Oldiesman, Joniam, What the hey, and Another Dan as “group think”.
That's quite a group you've put me in, there, Dot. From my point of view, I'd say that AnotherDan is willing and ready to learn from anyone, and to love anyone, but the ones I look up to most around here include TBone, Wrdsandwrks, Abi, George Aar, Socks, ButNowISee, Another Spot, Pawtucket, JohnJ, and debbieb. And others.
Every one of the people with whom you associated me, I have considerable differences with... That doesn't mean I can't learn from any of them, nor appreciate them. I do. I also appreciate you and Larry, though I may disagree with either the substance or style of your posts. Anyone who would select those people as representative of what I'm about, simply hasn't been paying attention. That's fine with me.
If on nothing else, I am the authority on who I feel represents the heart and thinking that most closely aligns with my own heart and mind, and you simply do not "get" me. It hurt my heart to read your post, but it's good that I know how misunderstood I can be. It will help me to make sense of others' insensitve comments.
Larry screwed up pretty badly on this thread. I think TBone pretty well documented that. He wasn't banned, but my guess is that he was warned -- how ever that works around here. A little dose of reality isn't bad for anyone.
As you know, I sent you a PM which had much the same substance as my present post. You didn't even give me the courtesy of a reply. Or do you have me blocked?
Yes, Dot, you have a right to say things as you see it. Say away. It's a free cafe.
Abigail, you know I like you too and think a lot of you – as I've expressed on a few threads. Presently our discussion here has highlighted some important "peripheral" issues that pervade Grease Spot, in my humble opinion. I hope no one takes offense in what I'm about to say – because I am including myself in my observations - my overall impression of Grease Spot.
Most of us here have had some kind of experience with TWI. When we compare "notes" I see a wide variety of good and bad experiences and just as varied collection of opinions of the whole experience. The same can be said of doctrinal and philosophical issues. And like our experiences that is also a very personal thing – an ongoing process for many here – sorting through doctrines and ideas - re-examining…thinking…exploring. The third and perhaps the most elusive "peripheral" issue is the troublesome dynamics that we practiced in our TWI-days – and sometimes surface here – as a ghost in the machine. Grease Spot is a crazy mix of folks - each person having individual experiences, opinions, beliefs, but also quirky interpersonal baggage leftover from TWI...Looks like we all bought our luggage from the same store .
"Troublesome dynamics" is how I refer to the trouble-making processes that actually make matters worse – by compounding the problem [if there even is a problem to begin with]. I dunno – they can sneak into [naturally or intentionally] the big picture of… group dynamics ? [any psyche majors out there feel free to chime in and fine tune this] and throw up a smokescreen around what's really going on. There's something powerful about all the forces in play of any social setting.
After PoP TWI was a big mess with upper leadership's inept crisis management. Certain issues were brought up in PoP and later talked about by upper leadership. As this played out, there was something I noticed in letters and tapes from Headquarters, in responses to my letters to upper leadership and my Corps brothers. The focus on those certain issues was eclipsed by the bigger issue – "the integrity of the Word is at stake now." This is a troublesome dynamic. It's avoiding the real issues…."Devil spirits are getting you to doubt God's ministry." These are troublesome dynamics – blame-shifting and inducing fear.
Sometimes I'll see that happen here [just my opinion – I could be wrong], particularly on this thread. Only the phrases are adapted for ex-TWI folks – so we accuse another of succumbing to group-think, or using TWI-tactics. Sometimes the shoe fits – sometimes it doesn't – but either way the real issue gets lost in the sauce. In my opinion, the real issue of this thread has been attitudes. Tonto expressed her attitude in post # 1. Folks responded with their attitude about Tonto's attitude, discussed what's the right attitude toward Tonto's attitude, expressed attitudes toward newbies, Oldies, wife-beating by yours truly, soylent green, BBQ, women, bulwinkl's avatar, PFAL, freedom of expression, soft vanilla ice cream, Bangladesh [no wait that's "balderdash" – what Oldies said in post # 209], the ignore button, John Juedes, Larry, Larry's attitudes, poster's attitudes about Larry's attitudes, squirrels, Drambuie, and extremely long posts like this one. Obviously, my attitude is a longitude.
~~
At Grease Spot we sometimes throw out the term "Way-brain" in reference to the troublesome dynamics we now see when reflecting on a decision we made in TWI. Here's the part where I may step on some toes – but like I indicated above – my toes are included – see, I toed you so . I view everyone here as great folks – and each of us is at a different stage of exorcising the ghosts in the machine. Cman mentioned something about Larry sticking around if he can handle change as we all have – that's what Grease Spot is all about!
And that's a great point, Cman!!!!!! What kind of change are we talking about? I can't speak for anyone else – but I think it's a change of environment that leads to individual freedom and growth. Now here's where my viewpoint comes in [so it may be wrong] – I see us all as coming from a manipulative and controlled environment with very little freedom [TWI] to a place where thinking and debating is encouraged [Grease Spot Café].
There is no common point of view here. About the only common denominator is that most of the folks here have had something to do with TWI. I see it like the big bang theory. We were all clustered in a big glob [TWI] – something happened [not at the same time but for the sake of this analogy] – and in the explosion we all shoot off in a gazillion different directions. Some of the energy that kept us together as a glob can still exert a force on us.
I have nothing against you personally, Abigail – nor do I wish to get into a debate over Larry's posts or your assessment of him from PMs. My intent on this thread was to call attention to a troublesome dynamic. Larry is NOT the troublesome dynamic. His attitude is one of the troublesome dynamics on this and other threads. Should that be banned from Grease Spot? No - but it helps to identify it - get it out in the open so we can see how it's affecting things. Should Larry be banned from Grease Spot? No - if he is being genuine with good intentions.
I have called attention to a troublesome dynamic for the sake of everyone involved – including Larry! I'm not kidding!!!!!! Who has the patience or time to wade through a smokescreen of belligerent, bullying, arrogant, belittling attitudes to find a gem? We all have so much to contribute here – and the commerce of hearts and ideas fares a whole lot better when the "machinery" isn't all gunked up with troublesome dynamics. I remember an old saying in TWI that gave me focus in witnessing and counseling – and I think it is still true – people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. I'll listen and consider something from someone when I feel they are being genuine and have good intentions. Otherwise, I will continue to remain on guard – evaluating. Honest feedback is a good thing – it gives us an idea of how others perceive us – and should make us consider if that is how we want others to see us.
There is no "high road" on this thread: "I'm going to look past all that bad stuff and see the person." That is extremely difficult – if not impossible – if all you see are his words on a computer screen. "Well…yes…but a person posted that – I know they mean well." I haven't come to a conclusion yet on what his intentions are. My impression of him so far, from his words, from the way he interacts with others, from the way he says things - leads me to think he's either a plant, a troll or a person with TWI experiences who has some serious issues. I'll ignore a plant or troll – but welcome anybody with good intentions regardless of what they think of TWI or what issues they may have.
That's quite a group you've put me in, there, Dot. From my point of view, I'd say that AnotherDan is willing and ready to learn from anyone, and to love anyone, but the ones I look up to most around here include TBone, Wrdsandwrks, Abi, George Aar, Socks, ButNowISee, Another Spot, Pawtucket, JohnJ, and debbieb. And others.
Every one of the people with whom you associated me, I have considerable differences with... That doesn't mean I can't learn from any of them, nor appreciate them. I do. I also appreciate you and Larry, though I may disagree with either the substance or style of your posts. Anyone who would select those people as representative of what I'm about, simply hasn't been paying attention. That's fine with me.
If on nothing else, I am the authority on who I feel represents the heart and thinking that most closely aligns with my own heart and mind, and you simply do not "get" me. It hurt my heart to read your post, but it's good that I know how misunderstood I can be. It will help me to make sense of others' insensitve comments.
Larry screwed up pretty badly on this thread. I think TBone pretty well documented that. He wasn't banned, but my guess is that he was warned -- how ever that works around here. A little dose of reality isn't bad for anyone.
As you know, I sent you a PM which had much the same substance as my present post. You didn't even give me the courtesy of a reply. Or do you have me blocked?
Yes, Dot, you have a right to say things as you see it. Say away. It's a free cafe.
I did not even open my mail yet.
I got in from work on an emergency case and checked this thread.
So, you do not LIKE being bunched into a groupthink?My point, exactly.
Neither do I (we)
Just because people individually have the same conclusion does not mean it to be a “groupthink”
I guess you missed the point. I DID NOT bring up groupthink as I DO NOT think it applies.
Here is your reply -
I do not think groupthink applies here, Abi brought it up. Therefore, I was following her lead to make a point.
You probably should NOT be clumped with the others, but just because Tonto, Rascal, Cman, Sirguessalot, Sudo, Bulwinkl, Sunesis and I find Larry offensive -- is that "groupthink" or is it a group of independent people who came to the same conclusion independently --- we find Larry offensive.
But groupthink is a buzzword, which has been used in this thread as a chastisement, as if without "each other" feeling the same way, we would not independently come to the same conclusion.
It simply DOES NOT APPLY, here. It is a weak argument especially as I have never even conversed with Tonto or T-bone before. I merely found them to have come to a similar conclusion as I have had.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
30
32
74
35
Popular Days
Sep 13
84
Sep 2
71
Sep 15
40
Sep 3
39
Top Posters In This Topic
Dot Matrix 30 posts
cman 32 posts
Larry N Moore 74 posts
anotherDan 35 posts
Popular Days
Sep 13 2007
84 posts
Sep 2 2007
71 posts
Sep 15 2007
40 posts
Sep 3 2007
39 posts
Ham
I dunno.. sometimes I can see the individual past the politics, the poor self esteem.. the faults..
sometimes at least I think I can make a difference, and a lot of the time, it doesn't do a damn bit of good..
:)
who knows..
I'd rather have some kind of party..
maybe someday I'll get my.. sheesh.. what is it.. can't think of the synonym..
what is it..
"political expectation.."
AMBITION.. that's it..
:)
It may be a small one.. but I guess it still is ambition..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
T-bone, I would offer you the same challenge. I have spent roughly two hours reading through Larry's posts. Only I didn't start with the last 10 pages, I started with the FIRST 10 pages.
What I saw is that Larry came here and was honest and respectful in his posts. He offered his opinions, as pretty much everyone here does. He even responded to the initial insults thrown his way with humor and at times apologies.
What I see is a guy who left TWI because he could no longer align himself with the direction it was going in. Who, despite having left, is still thankful for the experience he had and the benefits he received in his life. I see a guy who may never have experienced the deep hurts from TWI that some of us did - and thus may not be fully aware of them, or may even be somewhat skeptical of them because he doesn't yet know many of us well enough to simply "take our word for it". Yet despite that, he also didn't accuse anyone of lying either.
I see a guy who has re-evaluated at least some of what he was taught in PFAL. Tossed some, kept some. Might yet toss more, might not, who knows.
He asked pointed questions. He offered opinions and when they were doctrinal in nature he often offered scriptural references. I read as he was insulted over and over again whenever his doctrinal beliefs were aligned with something VPW taught, despite the fact the he was respectful of other people's beliefs.
In short, what I have seen is group think. People ganging up on him because he did not agree with the group. I see religious intolerance - intolerance of someone simply because he valued some of what he learned from PFAL and VPW. Intolerance of the sort that many of you would never have tolerated had he been espousing Judaism, Paganism, Buddahism, etc. etc.
In other words, what I see happening here is not so different from what happened in TWI. If you offer an opinion that differs from the larger group - you are lambasted and insulted. I am embarassed by the way he was treated by some, back in his earlier days of posting.
There were, of course, those who did not gang up on him as well - and with those people he was never rude or disrespectful. So, perhaps he is using me. But perhaps, just perhaps, he has just offered me the same respect I offered him.
Now, I am not ignorant of his posts over these past few weeks. I am not ignorant of the way he behaved in this thread. But I cannot say his behavior is worse than that of some of the other participants here. I might even go so far as to say his behavior wasn't even as bad as the behavior of some of the participants in this thread.
And you know, T-bone, I like you and the Mrs. I don't want to fight with the two of you, heck I don't really want to fight with anyone. I like Dot, I like Dooj, I can't think of a single person who has posted in this thread that I dislike.
But, I can't sell myself out for popularity either. I can't just sit back and say nothing simply because that would be the easier thing to do. I think what has happened here is wrong. I think Larry was treated very badly, almost from the beginning, and not because he was rude or had an attitude, but because he simply doesn't have the same anomosity toward TWI and VPW that so many of us here do.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
Abi, now you're reminding me of my deprogramming.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Abi
I respect you and I like you but I do not agree with you regarding Larry.
He can disagree. And it seems that you seem to think this thread, and absolute frustration, is all about people disagreeing with his views; it is not it is his condescending. Holier than thou, know-it-all attitude which has angered people.
Yet, you keep going back to the argument of “group think” and truly I do not see how that fits here. It may have in the past, in other threads, on different days. But I really do not believe, for a second, it fits with Larry, nor do I believe it has been the complaint.
He has come into a community with a slice and dice attitude and really savors the attention he gets. It is not the words it is the attitude and I feel T-bone, Tonto, and I have repeatedly stated that. T-bone and Tonto more effectively than I.
It behooves me how you can view people who disagree with Larry as a “group think” but dismiss or not even acknowledge Mike, Oldiesman, Joniam, What the hey, and Another Dan as “group think”.
Because if we are going to swing the topic from Larry’s attitude to accusing people of group think then let’s do it. Each time someone who KNEW VPW, or even served shoulder to shoulder with him reveals a caustic, diabolic nature, the “group think” people such as Oldies, Joniam, Jeaniam, What the hey etc... all jump on the band wagon, to defend VPW, because he taught them a video or audio class some years back. They forsake anything other than they got something from the class and fellowshiped with “like- minded” believers.
(Heck. We all liked the class. But some day, after many many people share it was taken from BG Leonard -- you expect people to have a light bulb moment, rather than to FIGHT to hold onto error.)
We have had, and currently have people on here, who KNEW VP stole the class and that the “group think” (that VPW ONLY contributed to their lives people), do not entertain the PROOF or testimonies – cause after all – they stood on VP’s shoulders and found God.
GOD is the one who called them, and IMO, VP got in the way of the fullness of that calling.
But nobody can even approach plagiarism, rape, stealing “the prophecy” etc. from VP --- because after all, "VP is the ONE who taught me the class via video." (He taught a stolen class, give praise to God for the contents and dam n the method?)
In the Waydale days, Ralph D. shared the horror stories and the “group think” X-Wafers argued with him as if he were a heretic.
So, Sunesis shares what she knows via Jim Dopp, and I know from personal experience and also spoke with Jimmy. And Larry posts the little man banging his head against a board.
But, that seems to be okay with you. The fact that HE (Larry) comes out and pretty much says she is making the stuff up, even after Skyrider and John Juedes share things to SHOW him the man VP really was – Larry fights, not disagrees, but uses huge letters to show he might still be IN TWI.
So, you seem to consider the fact that they are sharing FACTS and they are the same facts --- group think?
I feel you have the players mixed up on the “group think” and maybe you need to ask yourself why? As you seem to suggest, others introspectively, see how they may have handled things differently.
But we are not even talking about GROUPthink here; it is Larry’s incessant posts, the surly questions and the nastiness. He did not even KNOW VP, but he is an expert, but those who knew him, are really the “Group think” people, to you?
And because Larry insults them and they/we all react with indignation – that is “group think?” -- It is a human response to him. Perhaps, it is “Group think” – of the human race
He was so incredibly mean to Rascal and I sat by thinking, well, this is not my fight.
But when the forums became the “Larry N Moore” show, and people I love were injured, I did speak up. And I will continue to do so.
I love you dear, I really, really do, but in this case I simply feel you are wrong.
And you may feel the same way about me, so we will have to disagree
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Tonto, dear, thank you for the love you've shown to me.
My "groupthink" bible verses:
“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” (Eph 3:16-19 AV)
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
And no place does it EVER state that LOVE is being a dormat for Larry, for VP or anyone else.
I am glad you have kindness Dan but as you see your kindness being extended to Larry, I see mine being extended to the wake of people he injured
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Abigail, I don't believe it is a group think attack against Larry. His insults are back-handed and sneaky and leaves him an out for those who don't agree with him and can be taken either way. It's not honest. And you might have noticed how he was with men as opposed to women. Pretty obvious.
Personally I just quit talking to 'Larry-dear' because of his attitude as Dot has pointed out.
And he will not talk with me anyway, cause I question him directly, to which he will not directly answer.
Edited by cmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
I took your challenge too T-Bone and I agree 100% with Abi post.
Where as I do love you All very much; I feel that I am taking a far larger risk in stating what I see and believe. I haven't been here that long and I am not that well known. I am still reworking the word and other things in my life. I feel like at times , it is a great risk to trust that people are fair, impartial, honest and just!
I also Love the "Newbies and "Lurkers", and remember how I felt as one of them...I remember some of my thoughts and preconceptions of all of you; until I took the time and made the efforts to get to know you and see your hearts!
I think what Abi has given here is a "wake up call" for us All to think about what tactics we do use on this forum!
What exactly do you think that the "Newbies' and Lurkers' think about the way we convey the other side of the story?
Are we just, fair, thoughtful, kind hearted, and loving in our approach...? Do we listen enough?, read thoroughly enough? Do we carefully deliberate our thoughts and motives, before we reply?
Are we perhaps, unknowingly, or not sometimes using tactics previously used on us?
Are we clinging to old fears so tightly that we prejudge, try and convict people without even knowing them or hearing them out?
Are we afraid to allow them to speak because what they say doesn't line up with what we hold most dear?
Where is there true freedom, if the whole story is not allowed to be heard out completely?
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Somehow the course, the communication here at GSC will take strong twists and become a very harsh place to even try to reason with...there is a strong drive to prove ourselves right, I think it depends on the listener..which most certainly will never end peacefully, because eventualy anything started with value ends up getting trashed...it is a stronghold...somehow we feel our righteouness hinges on trust and being able to share our deepest feelings which is the most sacred....then people get hurt..I dunno...is there a right and wrong..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
I'd also like to add that you, Abigail, did a good job of picking out good parts of his posts and going from there which is a good thing and we should all get better at this.
I've seen a fella on another forum who was excellent at doing this in the face of insults even.
So what you posted is not ignored by me, but I will try to see what you see. And get better at keeping communication progressive and not downhill.
So Thanks for your thoughts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
cman, what a wonderful thing to say. It was like a ray of sunshine on a cloudy day.
pick your medicine:
they're all saying the same thing....
"groupthink," I guess
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Thank you, RGirl, for getting what it is I am trying to say! For me, this isn't just all about Larry. I think by and large Larry can take care of himself. But what has occured here with him, is a great example of what happens to others here as well. The only real difference being that Larry fought back and so many others simply walk away in silence.
New people who come here and say anything about fond memories get their behinds kicked. New people who come here and acknowledge getting anything good out of PFAL get their behinds kicked. I don't understand how people can expect someone new to simply buy the stories of rape and abuse without being allowed time to get to know the posters first. I sure didn't buy them right off the bat.
How can someone new here simply be expected to toss everything they have believed for years simply because someone they don't know says it is wrong??? New people need time to get to know us and they won't ever take the time if they are attacked right out of the starting gate, simply because they are presently where some of us were a number of years ago.
There are people who lurk here and never post, for fear of being attacked for their POV. There are people who post and then never come back because they were attacked. And Roy, he stuck it out, but man did he take a LOT of crap in the begning, and look how wonderful his heart is!!! What a loss it would have been if he had just given up and walked away, hurt, because of how he was treated when he first came here.
They are people who left or were thrown out of TWI, who are also trying to understand what they experiened. People who are looking for people who will understand. Where do you go to find people who will understand, if not to a group of people who have also been through it? And what do you do when you finally find the people who have also been through it, and then you receive the same treatment you got in TWI, simply because you still believe what you were taught in TWI?
That is why I took this issue up. Not just for Larry, but for all the people who will never say a word here, who will come here and find they are treated no better here than they were in TWI, simpy because they have a different perspective or POV.
And, from my POV, Larry didn't fire the first shots, he simply returned the fire he got - and yes, with a vengeance. But at the same time, some of the very people who have spoken out against Larry the loudest have also continued to engage him, to fire at him as well. If they really find him so incredibly offensive why do they continue to engage him? How have they behaved any better?
Oldiesman and Mike - they take a lot of crap too and they have a lot of personal insults thrown at them as well. The only real difference is that Oldiesman and Mike don't fight back in the same way. They don't return the same fire they receive (the personal insults). If they did, it is entirely possible they would have long ago been in the same position Larry is now in.
(((Cman)))) And you did a good job of not throwing out insults in the face of all of this. Of remaining silent instead of throwing fuel on a fire. :)
You know we dont have to agree to maintain mutual friendship and respect. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Cman, Dan and Abi, Well done!
I hope that you don't mind that I post these scriptures that you posted in another thread Dan as it applies here as well.
1Pe 3:8
Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
1Pe 3:9
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10
For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11
Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13
And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17
For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Of course we are still friends!
And Larry should stick around if he can handle change as we all have.
We all thought differently about many things years ago.
I'm past wierwille/pfal bashing but can still point out where there is good and bad.
Here we point out the bad mostly because a lot of us needed it flushed out, and still do at times.
Anyway he should give GSC and us who are GSC another chance.
And we can give him some slack, if he don't hog the boards....lol.
If he can handle it. Some can't because of all the bad being pointed out.
But there is good pointed out too and it's not pounced on as badly as it use to be.
That's what I see anyway.
GreseSpotCafe changes too.
It was viewed by some as pro-pfal for a while imo.
It's kind of balancing out and will continue to change and grow.
It's when the words of pfal are used instead of using different words to communicate that usually starts trouble. That's what sickens some and fires up some.
If we could stop and think and phrase things differently, hearing or speaking, it makes a difference.
Peace love and all that to you all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
That might seem not to be the case since you opened your direction with the statement.
"It's obvious who is the one person responding with TWI-tactics."
Edited by Lifted UpLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Tonto, another one for you. It's not Bob, but it might speak to your Jones
I just found this one. I don't know if you like James. It's not one of his biggest hits, but it's one of my favorites. He later recorded it, of course, with Joni Mitchell singing backup, and it was magic. This is just after he wrote it. Long Ago and Far Away
Hope you like it.
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
here's a twenty-first-century version, recorded with true bathroom reverb. I loved it!
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I want to say one last thing, before I leave to spend the rest of the day with my family.
The last month of so has been a great time of transformation and healing in me. Credit first and foremost goes to God, but credit also goes to Dan and Larry. In Dan I often see the person I strive to be. Soft spoken and caring, balanced, thoughtful and thought provoking, intelligent and studied, independant and able to think for himself.
Larry. Larry, asked a lot of pointed, thought provoking, and difficult to answer questions. But I took the time to think those questions through and try to answer them when I could, when I couldn't, I said that too. From Larry, I have found a place of peace regarding my time in TWI, I have found a place of balance.
I no longer feel like I wasted 10 years of my life, I no longer feel hurt, angry, bitter about my time in TWI. I can look back on that time and see the good I received, I can look back and see the mistakes I made that also played a part in the hurt I received. That is not to relieve people of responsibility for the things they did that hurt me. I am simply adding to that mix the responsibility I own for allowing them too - for giving them so large a place in my life and giving myself so small a place in my life. For taking the bait hook, line, and sinker, instead of trusting myself, trusting my mind, trusting what God was telling me above what other people were telling me. Because of Larry, I have found the courage to speak out in this thread the way I have, despite the fact that it may cause me the friendship and respect of some of the people I care about - but which will in the end, allow me to still respect the person I see in the mirror.
Because of that, because of both of them and of course, because of God, I feel like I am FINALLY after 7 years here at the cafe, reaching a place where I am once again comfortable enough to go out in the world and allow more people into my life in real face to face relationship. I am finally reaching a place where I am willing to walk into a religious institution and give it and the people there, more than a cursory glance before finding a reason to dismiss them and leave again.
I know many of you would be happy if Larry never returns. But as for me, I am very saddened by that prospect.
So, I want to thank Larry and Dan for the role they have played in my life, for the things the have helped me to see, in this past month or so.
And with that - I am off to face the real world today. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
I love you, Abs. I pray that you and Sush are refreshed today. Thanks for all you are; you are precious!
edit: PS to the GS family. I've gotten to know Abi pretty well. We email one another a lot. I don't think I'm revealing secrets to tell you that at times she is sick of heart over some of the things that are said here. It should be pretty evident to anyone who reads her posts. For now, at least, this is Abi's church family. Her byline is "wandering Jew;" she is that, but she is more than that. She is a true child of the living God, just like you, Dot, just like Larry. It's a hard fact that some people simply cannot see another person's heart, though it's laid out right before them. In some cases, ISTM, it's because their own pain is so great that they don't have the "margin" to spare for another who is right beside them. I've been encouraging her to find another church home, but she's neither Jew nor Christian. She does fit in here, where anything goes, and she has stayed even though sometimes it really really hurts. That may be a part of why she feels badly for Larry. She understands.
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Well, Dan that was very nice!
So, you think Abi gets sick at heart reading things here --- and what? Nobody else does?
I am STILL sick over the way John Juedes was treated here. Let me tell you about John Juedes.
After leaving TWI, and looking over my shoulder for Satan to kill me because I left, I wrote John Juedes a note. I blathered on and on about this horrible secret I had been keeping about VPW and his sexual problems. I had gotten validation with Ralph when he came out to stay with us, but the bondage kept me chained to this horrible gnome and his dirty secrets.
John Jueds took the time to write back and forth with me until I began to heal. The torment of KNOWING what Dr.Weiwille did to girls was crippling. The picture in my head of his old naked body and him having such little regard for God’s woman disturbed me and “kept me in my place” And the nerve of him to say to me, “Do you swallow?” Expecting me to just get between his thighs and DO that stunted my growth as a human being.
John Juedes wrote back and forth with me, He allowed me to be afraid. TO question things and he showed me anwers. This total stranger lovingly stroked my broken heart with a hand of healing as no minister had before or since.
And when he came here and the PEOPLE ridiculed him, treated him as pond scum, because he called a liar a liar, a rapist a rapist and a thief a thief – well it was heart wrenching.
But that doesn’t bother some of you because – let’s help Larry to “fit in”
Give me a break!
And guess what, I am NOT the one who brought up GROUP THINK it was Abi in her defense/testimony about what she feels people DID to Larry.
What about how he treated John Juedes? And if we do want to include the “group think” argument, rather than people had similar opinions – not based on a group but independently arrived at these conclusions, then let us follow Abi’s example and call it “Group think”
They (The groupthink) treated him worse than the mold in the basement because the “precious Vickstar” maybe dethroned.
So, if your intent is to make me feel badly for LARRY – think again.
I am still nauseated over the treatment of John Juedes, of Rascal –(who BTW has been tortured by groupthink each time she starts to post.), of Dmiller who Larry all but called him stupid because Dmiller disagreed with HIM. And don’t even tell me that Cman did not try to be kind. He was wonderful as Larry dissected him, as were many many others. Skyrider who can intellectually topple him, Sunesis whose personal experiences are being denied and treated like a doozie!
But somehow, all of this gets lost here because of poor Larry. He doesn’t fit in.
One thing, I learned YEARS ago, as I gathered people for Twig fellowship and would “love” them, drive them places, buy things for them, some of the loneliest people are lonely because they deserve to be. They have no friends because they run them off, they have no place to go because they destroy every place they have ever been.
That is NOT the case with Abi as she is a delight. But everyone has felt a bit lost and looking for a place to go…. So, I do not have a special “sorry card” written up for Larry just because he did not fit in here. He barged in as a mean pompous azz. AGAIN for those who cannot HEAR – IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. IT WAS HIS ATTITUDE NOT HIS OPINIONS. Just making sure everyone sees that as Tonto, T-bone, Cman and others have stated it repeatedly.
There are people who defend the “underdog” because they can relate. It is difficult for those types of people to see a “user” when he is sitting in the same room.
To those people, I truly think you are being fooled. I think you are being played by Larry.
He knows just what to say, and to withhold, in manipulation. Some do not believe that is “him” in the interview, but the “him” who will win the most points.
"Love" him if you want. I choose not to be an enabler. I choose not to be involved, except when he methodically dissects people for having a different opinion than his.
I agree with Sirguessalot, it is like showing up at Cheers, peeing on the bar, and feigning ignorance.
You are being played, may God guard your heart and keep you from harm.
IMHO
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
That's quite a group you've put me in, there, Dot. From my point of view, I'd say that AnotherDan is willing and ready to learn from anyone, and to love anyone, but the ones I look up to most around here include TBone, Wrdsandwrks, Abi, George Aar, Socks, ButNowISee, Another Spot, Pawtucket, JohnJ, and debbieb. And others.
Every one of the people with whom you associated me, I have considerable differences with... That doesn't mean I can't learn from any of them, nor appreciate them. I do. I also appreciate you and Larry, though I may disagree with either the substance or style of your posts. Anyone who would select those people as representative of what I'm about, simply hasn't been paying attention. That's fine with me.
If on nothing else, I am the authority on who I feel represents the heart and thinking that most closely aligns with my own heart and mind, and you simply do not "get" me. It hurt my heart to read your post, but it's good that I know how misunderstood I can be. It will help me to make sense of others' insensitve comments.
Larry screwed up pretty badly on this thread. I think TBone pretty well documented that. He wasn't banned, but my guess is that he was warned -- how ever that works around here. A little dose of reality isn't bad for anyone.
As you know, I sent you a PM which had much the same substance as my present post. You didn't even give me the courtesy of a reply. Or do you have me blocked?
Yes, Dot, you have a right to say things as you see it. Say away. It's a free cafe.
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Abigail, you know I like you too and think a lot of you – as I've expressed on a few threads. Presently our discussion here has highlighted some important "peripheral" issues that pervade Grease Spot, in my humble opinion. I hope no one takes offense in what I'm about to say – because I am including myself in my observations - my overall impression of Grease Spot.
Most of us here have had some kind of experience with TWI. When we compare "notes" I see a wide variety of good and bad experiences and just as varied collection of opinions of the whole experience. The same can be said of doctrinal and philosophical issues. And like our experiences that is also a very personal thing – an ongoing process for many here – sorting through doctrines and ideas - re-examining…thinking…exploring. The third and perhaps the most elusive "peripheral" issue is the troublesome dynamics that we practiced in our TWI-days – and sometimes surface here – as a ghost in the machine. Grease Spot is a crazy mix of folks - each person having individual experiences, opinions, beliefs, but also quirky interpersonal baggage leftover from TWI...Looks like we all bought our luggage from the same store
.
"Troublesome dynamics" is how I refer to the trouble-making processes that actually make matters worse – by compounding the problem [if there even is a problem to begin with]. I dunno – they can sneak into [naturally or intentionally] the big picture of… group dynamics ? [any psyche majors out there feel free to chime in and fine tune this] and throw up a smokescreen around what's really going on. There's something powerful about all the forces in play of any social setting.
After PoP TWI was a big mess with upper leadership's inept crisis management. Certain issues were brought up in PoP and later talked about by upper leadership. As this played out, there was something I noticed in letters and tapes from Headquarters, in responses to my letters to upper leadership and my Corps brothers. The focus on those certain issues was eclipsed by the bigger issue – "the integrity of the Word is at stake now." This is a troublesome dynamic. It's avoiding the real issues…."Devil spirits are getting you to doubt God's ministry." These are troublesome dynamics – blame-shifting and inducing fear.
Sometimes I'll see that happen here [just my opinion – I could be wrong], particularly on this thread. Only the phrases are adapted for ex-TWI folks – so we accuse another of succumbing to group-think, or using TWI-tactics. Sometimes the shoe fits – sometimes it doesn't – but either way the real issue gets lost in the sauce. In my opinion, the real issue of this thread has been attitudes. Tonto expressed her attitude in post # 1. Folks responded with their attitude about Tonto's attitude, discussed what's the right attitude toward Tonto's attitude, expressed attitudes toward newbies, Oldies, wife-beating by yours truly, soylent green, BBQ, women, bulwinkl's avatar, PFAL, freedom of expression, soft vanilla ice cream, Bangladesh [no wait that's "balderdash" – what Oldies said in post # 209], the ignore button, John Juedes, Larry, Larry's attitudes, poster's attitudes about Larry's attitudes, squirrels, Drambuie, and extremely long posts like this one. Obviously, my attitude is a longitude.
~~
At Grease Spot we sometimes throw out the term "Way-brain" in reference to the troublesome dynamics we now see when reflecting on a decision we made in TWI. Here's the part where I may step on some toes – but like I indicated above – my toes are included – see, I toed you so . I view everyone here as great folks – and each of us is at a different stage of exorcising the ghosts in the machine. Cman mentioned something about Larry sticking around if he can handle change as we all have – that's what Grease Spot is all about!
And that's a great point, Cman!!!!!! What kind of change are we talking about? I can't speak for anyone else – but I think it's a change of environment that leads to individual freedom and growth. Now here's where my viewpoint comes in [so it may be wrong] – I see us all as coming from a manipulative and controlled environment with very little freedom [TWI] to a place where thinking and debating is encouraged [Grease Spot Café].
There is no common point of view here. About the only common denominator is that most of the folks here have had something to do with TWI. I see it like the big bang theory. We were all clustered in a big glob [TWI] – something happened [not at the same time but for the sake of this analogy] – and in the explosion we all shoot off in a gazillion different directions. Some of the energy that kept us together as a glob can still exert a force on us.
I have nothing against you personally, Abigail – nor do I wish to get into a debate over Larry's posts or your assessment of him from PMs. My intent on this thread was to call attention to a troublesome dynamic. Larry is NOT the troublesome dynamic. His attitude is one of the troublesome dynamics on this and other threads. Should that be banned from Grease Spot? No - but it helps to identify it - get it out in the open so we can see how it's affecting things. Should Larry be banned from Grease Spot? No - if he is being genuine with good intentions.
I have called attention to a troublesome dynamic for the sake of everyone involved – including Larry! I'm not kidding!!!!!! Who has the patience or time to wade through a smokescreen of belligerent, bullying, arrogant, belittling attitudes to find a gem? We all have so much to contribute here – and the commerce of hearts and ideas fares a whole lot better when the "machinery" isn't all gunked up with troublesome dynamics. I remember an old saying in TWI that gave me focus in witnessing and counseling – and I think it is still true – people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. I'll listen and consider something from someone when I feel they are being genuine and have good intentions. Otherwise, I will continue to remain on guard – evaluating. Honest feedback is a good thing – it gives us an idea of how others perceive us – and should make us consider if that is how we want others to see us.
There is no "high road" on this thread: "I'm going to look past all that bad stuff and see the person." That is extremely difficult – if not impossible – if all you see are his words on a computer screen. "Well…yes…but a person posted that – I know they mean well." I haven't come to a conclusion yet on what his intentions are. My impression of him so far, from his words, from the way he interacts with others, from the way he says things - leads me to think he's either a plant, a troll or a person with TWI experiences who has some serious issues. I'll ignore a plant or troll – but welcome anybody with good intentions regardless of what they think of TWI or what issues they may have.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
I did not even open my mail yet.
I got in from work on an emergency case and checked this thread.
So, you do not LIKE being bunched into a groupthink?My point, exactly.
Neither do I (we)
Just because people individually have the same conclusion does not mean it to be a “groupthink”
I guess you missed the point. I DID NOT bring up groupthink as I DO NOT think it applies.
Here is your reply -
I do not think groupthink applies here, Abi brought it up. Therefore, I was following her lead to make a point.
You probably should NOT be clumped with the others, but just because Tonto, Rascal, Cman, Sirguessalot, Sudo, Bulwinkl, Sunesis and I find Larry offensive -- is that "groupthink" or is it a group of independent people who came to the same conclusion independently --- we find Larry offensive.
But groupthink is a buzzword, which has been used in this thread as a chastisement, as if without "each other" feeling the same way, we would not independently come to the same conclusion.
It simply DOES NOT APPLY, here. It is a weak argument especially as I have never even conversed with Tonto or T-bone before. I merely found them to have come to a similar conclusion as I have had.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.