I never bought the idea that we received deliverance DESPITE twi.
Doesn't make too much sense to me.
It's like, yesterday I went for soft vanilla ice cream at Carvel and I ate soft vanilla ice cream despite Carvel.
You just thought it was pure soft vanilla ice cream. Was there anything else in it? Tonto's statement makes a lot of sense to me! It's like the difference between unprocessed and processed food...Like Paul talking about adulterating the Word of God:
II Corinthians 4:2 NASB
but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
The blessings come from the unadulterated truths of the Bible. And the same goes for the Spirit of God. Any junk that we add in the mix is unable to stop the power of - - - GOD !
It was "pure soft vanilla ice cream" otherwise "the deliverance wouldn't have been there".
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Deliverance is deliverance.
I keep asking myself why folks hung around twi for so long; and the same answer keeps coming along. ...
People stuck around for two reasons: 1. The genuine deliverance that God wrought despite the adulteration of the Word, and 2. The manipulative, coercive, and life-dominating principles of TWI.
The biggest “spiritual hitchhikers” were the upper leadership of TWI. It’s like the Matrix movie. We were all like the humans in the pods hooked up to the matrix. The matrix generated a program [a make-believe world] into everyone’s head to help maintain certain functions - - so that in turn the matrix could suck the life out of them – providing power for the matrix.
People stuck around for two reasons: 1. The genuine deliverance that God wrought despite the adulteration of the Word, and 2. The manipulative, coercive, and life-dominating principles of TWI.
Balderdash. There wouldn't have been genuine deliverance without genuine Word taught. Genuine deliverance doesn't come from nothingness.
And the so-called alleged "manipulative coercive life-dominating principles" seem to be excuses for perpetual victim entitlement.
If it was sooo good there.. how come so many left with such a sour taste in their mouths..
The answer is simple. There obviously came a point in which it wasn't good for us who left, so we left. I think the vast majority have gotten over it already and have moved on with their lives. Many have gone into offshoots. The folks who are still in twi, find it good for them, and that is ok with me. The is the U.S. of America with freedom of religion.
As far as the sour taste goes, if one chooses to focus on that sour taste, that is their choice. Similarly, if one chooses to focus on that good taste, that is their choice.
...As far as the sour taste goes, if one chooses to focus on that sour taste, that is their choice. Similarly, if one chooses to focus on that good taste, that is their choice.
Perhaps the sour taste is folks discerning the "additives" to the Word of God. How much of what food processing plants put into stuff we consume even provides genuine nourishment and promotes health? Some ingredients are down right addicting – caffeine…sugar.
People stuck around for two reasons: 1. The genuine deliverance that God wrought despite the adulteration of the Word, and 2. The manipulative, coercive, and life-dominating principles of TWI....
The added ingredients are in reason # 2 – noted as the effect they produce. The TWI-mindset links PFAL with the Word of God – putting PFAL on par with Scripture. In TWI teachings, alongside Bible passages comments are added – sometimes words that sow subtle ideas - playing off this association of PFAL/Bible. Who else out there rightly divides the Word? Where are you going to go? Remember who taught you the Word. Judas walked out on Jesus – and it was night. If you leave God's ministry you're walking out into oblivion.
These manipulative thoughts serve the purpose of entangling the follower, like a spider web...folks become bound [addicted] emotionally/intellectually to TWI...The adulteration process includes any erroneous doctrines [like the law of believing] as well as these manipulative tactics...Could God's "deliverance" come through [to whatever degree] in spite of all that? Sure! I imagine one could survive indefinitely on a diet of nothing but Twinkies and Coca Cola - not sure how healthy the person will be though.
So my question after reading the last interchange, is what constitutes "deliverance?" Somehow living on a diet of vanilla ice cream, when one needs true nutrition, and healthy food to feed a starving soul, seems like a pretty poor substitute.
Ok, I'm trying to stick with the analogy. :unsure:
I stayed because I was told that I would die if I left...I endured terrible treatment because I was told that if I did not, I was stiff necked and would become posessed....
I humbly obeyed and stayed in spite of the horrible things required, in spite of the unfair treatment because I loved God and believed twi leaders when they said that they were the only ones with the truth....to leave would to become a *spiritual empty* :(
When I was taking pfal, one of the wows undershepherding me was killed in a care wreck...I saw it ...I was 17 yrs old and was told that Satan had taken her out....
I always knew in the back of my mind..that if I wasn`t really carefull spiritually...if I didn`t keep every door closed...that could be my fate as well.
Death was always the very real consequence for not complying 100 percent.
As far as this being America and we are all free to chose??? If twi or any of the offshoots require peoples participation because of teachings like those I mentioned....*I* have a problem with them.... it is wrong period even if the law DOES permit exploitation through lies and manipulation.
So my question after reading the last interchange, is what constitutes "deliverance?" Somehow living on a diet of vanilla ice cream, when one needs true nutrition, and healthy food to feed a starving soul, seems like a pretty poor substitute.
Ok, I'm trying to stick with the analogy. :unsure:
The soft vanilla ice cream analogy was just a craving for soft vanilla ice cream when I wrote it. :P :)
But the same may be said for health food. You walk into a health food store and eat spinach salad, leave the store and say to yourself "golly gee I just had spinach salad despite my eating spinach salad at the store."
That's how ridiculous it is to say one got delivered while in twi, despite twi. I never bought that statement and still don't buy it.
If one can't give credit where credit's due, one is not being honest with one self and it shows.
what made HIM feel so "entitled".. as to rape, rob, and in some people's point of view, deceive his own "flock"?
see.. time after time, those he worked over either were either falsely counselled to just forget it and chalk it up to the thought that "after all, he is da mog.." or shipped off into the night, labeled as possessed or worse..
all the while, he just sat.. waiting for unsuspecting, fresh meat to walk in his lair..
the ministry, if not the world "owed" it to him.. he was da mogster after all..
I call it predator entitlement.. perpetrator entitlement.
"predator" is too kind of a term. A lion hardly hunts for sport..
As long as "we" are here.. "they" will be desperately AFRAID of any kind of public debate..
They don't have to debate anyone. They have chosen their faith and religion just like any other U.S. citizen and if they want to engage in that group, that's their business. This is the U.S. of America with freedom of religion. Thank the Lord.
On Montel Williams today, he had girls who were subject to incest. It was said over and over in various ways that they were to keep the secret, placed in FEAR of something bad happening to them if they spoke and CONVINCED by the father/stepfather that using their body to please "him" was their job.
These are very similar statements, people have said here and off the boards, after encounters with sinister Vick.
Finding out about the "inner circle" and put in a position to be involved, I was PRESSURED to keep my mouth shut. When I "spoke out" I was possssessssed.....
Rascal has stated she stayed due to the FEAR they put into her about leaving, as others have stated, and women were told in marriage counseling to engage more in oral sex and it would fix everything.
So, yes it was the steps the predator takes, secrets, stealing the human spirit and replacing it with the spirit of fear, and robbing woman of anything other than the right to be a "penis receptacle."
Tonto:
Again, I think that Mr. Caustic Newbie needs to be confronted --- good for you
One of my first encounters with him he used the word f---ing and tried to intimidate me-- MISTAKE
I am a woman but I do not shake at little boys with BIG mouths and something to prove -- because they are lacking in the real world.
He has been a bully to Rascal, Sunesis and anyone else he tried to engage in a cock fight. But gee, when he gets to the cock fight, he is the only "cock" who showed up! <_<
It's like stop posting and take a viagra or buy a red sports car...
Still proud of you Tonto!!! And anyone else who said enough is enough!
You are right anyone can believe whatever they want to believe. Some people come here out of confusion. It is delivering to discover that BG's class was SO stolen that even "Maggie Muggins and Johnny Jump up" were people BG used in "his" class. Some X-wafers, who were hurt stay in a confusing circle, at times, --- i.e., how could a class by VP deliver me and yet he was so awful? It can be releasing to discover the "red flags" and the feelings to LEAVE were not the devil tricking us to LEAVE -- but God begging (so-to-speak) us to flee a situation that would harm us.
So, yes, people can keep believing Vick was a "saint-of-a-man" (so to speak). OR they can be able to put the pieces together of how a "messenger/teacher" of God could be so perverse.
Simply we learned of a GREAT GOD in a class that a true minister developed, then was stolen by a failing creep who desired power and sex, so there WAS some good -- it was set in the middle of much bad. So, it WAS OKAY with God for us to leave -- and again the nagging little voice prodding us to leave was NOT the devil -- it was the Lord trying to lead us back to him...
I feel the issue, which TONTO has cleared up for us, is the arrogance and the condescending, acrimonious way some new posters have decided to invade us. Just appear on the scene with a belching foul arrogance, where they feel it is "their duty”, or arrogantly their entitlement to come to a community and begin breathing fire, twisting experiences and being inanely rude. That arrogance is very TWI-like, or Craig-like, or devilish, or being socially inept. Take your pick.
The real scary part of this.. some who were and are in that organization agreed and agree with him ... that he was ENTITLED. It was a service which was OWED.
The only thing a mog is entitled to is esteem for the labor they do in the Word. Any labor they do which is not is not to be esteemed. It's scary that some/many can't see the difference. Scary, but not surprising.
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Bramble
I've noticed that, too. And sometimes they seem to gang up on the same few women.
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oldiesman
I never bought the idea that we received deliverance DESPITE twi.
Doesn't make too much sense to me.
It's like, yesterday I went for soft vanilla ice cream at Carvel and I ate soft vanilla ice cream despite Carvel.
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T-Bone
You just thought it was pure soft vanilla ice cream. Was there anything else in it? Tonto's statement makes a lot of sense to me! It's like the difference between unprocessed and processed food...Like Paul talking about adulterating the Word of God:
II Corinthians 4:2 NASB
but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
The blessings come from the unadulterated truths of the Bible. And the same goes for the Spirit of God. Any junk that we add in the mix is unable to stop the power of - - - GOD !
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oldiesman
It was "pure soft vanilla ice cream" otherwise "the deliverance wouldn't have been there".
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Deliverance is deliverance.
I keep asking myself why folks hung around twi for so long; and the same answer keeps coming along. ...
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oldiesman
Jesus said a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
That is why I know twi-1 wasn't a corrupt tree, because I observed the good fruit.
Capiche? Comprenda?
I love ya.
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T-Bone
People stuck around for two reasons: 1. The genuine deliverance that God wrought despite the adulteration of the Word, and 2. The manipulative, coercive, and life-dominating principles of TWI.
The biggest “spiritual hitchhikers” were the upper leadership of TWI. It’s like the Matrix movie. We were all like the humans in the pods hooked up to the matrix. The matrix generated a program [a make-believe world] into everyone’s head to help maintain certain functions - - so that in turn the matrix could suck the life out of them – providing power for the matrix.
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Ham
If it was sooo good there.. how come so many left with such a sour taste in their mouths..
seems those who were actually happy when they were there were asked to leave.
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oldiesman
Balderdash. There wouldn't have been genuine deliverance without genuine Word taught. Genuine deliverance doesn't come from nothingness.
And the so-called alleged "manipulative coercive life-dominating principles" seem to be excuses for perpetual victim entitlement.
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T-Bone
Please refer back to our "pure" soft vanilla ice cream and unprocessed/processed food discussion.
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oldiesman
The answer is simple. There obviously came a point in which it wasn't good for us who left, so we left. I think the vast majority have gotten over it already and have moved on with their lives. Many have gone into offshoots. The folks who are still in twi, find it good for them, and that is ok with me. The is the U.S. of America with freedom of religion.
As far as the sour taste goes, if one chooses to focus on that sour taste, that is their choice. Similarly, if one chooses to focus on that good taste, that is their choice.
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T-Bone
Perhaps the sour taste is folks discerning the "additives" to the Word of God. How much of what food processing plants put into stuff we consume even provides genuine nourishment and promotes health? Some ingredients are down right addicting – caffeine…sugar.
The added ingredients are in reason # 2 – noted as the effect they produce. The TWI-mindset links PFAL with the Word of God – putting PFAL on par with Scripture. In TWI teachings, alongside Bible passages comments are added – sometimes words that sow subtle ideas - playing off this association of PFAL/Bible. Who else out there rightly divides the Word? Where are you going to go? Remember who taught you the Word. Judas walked out on Jesus – and it was night. If you leave God's ministry you're walking out into oblivion.
These manipulative thoughts serve the purpose of entangling the follower, like a spider web...folks become bound [addicted] emotionally/intellectually to TWI...The adulteration process includes any erroneous doctrines [like the law of believing] as well as these manipulative tactics...Could God's "deliverance" come through [to whatever degree] in spite of all that? Sure! I imagine one could survive indefinitely on a diet of nothing but Twinkies and Coca Cola - not sure how healthy the person will be though.
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ex10
So my question after reading the last interchange, is what constitutes "deliverance?" Somehow living on a diet of vanilla ice cream, when one needs true nutrition, and healthy food to feed a starving soul, seems like a pretty poor substitute.
Ok, I'm trying to stick with the analogy. :unsure:
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rascal
I certainly didn`t stay because it was so great.
I stayed because I was told that I would die if I left...I endured terrible treatment because I was told that if I did not, I was stiff necked and would become posessed....
I humbly obeyed and stayed in spite of the horrible things required, in spite of the unfair treatment because I loved God and believed twi leaders when they said that they were the only ones with the truth....to leave would to become a *spiritual empty* :(
When I was taking pfal, one of the wows undershepherding me was killed in a care wreck...I saw it ...I was 17 yrs old and was told that Satan had taken her out....
I always knew in the back of my mind..that if I wasn`t really carefull spiritually...if I didn`t keep every door closed...that could be my fate as well.
Death was always the very real consequence for not complying 100 percent.
As far as this being America and we are all free to chose??? If twi or any of the offshoots require peoples participation because of teachings like those I mentioned....*I* have a problem with them.... it is wrong period even if the law DOES permit exploitation through lies and manipulation.
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Ham
Perpeptual? I haven't seen a single case of twi forking out some kind of retribution.. or the same bunch of greasespotters going back for seconds..
Nor any official admittance or denial of wrongdoing by twi.
Other than "we inform OUR people about all the soup and nuts.."
and "don't believe everything you read on the internet.."
As long as "we" are here.. "they" will be desperately AFRAID of any kind of public debate..
I think to be blinded by vic's "greatness".. attribute little lasting significance to his horrors.. is a form of PERPETRATOR entitlement.
"yeah, he may have been a little 'mean' at times.. but all in all, it was a good experience.."
what made HIM feel so "entitled".. as to rape, rob, and in some people's point of view, deceive his own "flock"?
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oldiesman
The soft vanilla ice cream analogy was just a craving for soft vanilla ice cream when I wrote it. :P :)
But the same may be said for health food. You walk into a health food store and eat spinach salad, leave the store and say to yourself "golly gee I just had spinach salad despite my eating spinach salad at the store."
That's how ridiculous it is to say one got delivered while in twi, despite twi. I never bought that statement and still don't buy it.
If one can't give credit where credit's due, one is not being honest with one self and it shows.
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Ham
see.. time after time, those he worked over either were either falsely counselled to just forget it and chalk it up to the thought that "after all, he is da mog.." or shipped off into the night, labeled as possessed or worse..
all the while, he just sat.. waiting for unsuspecting, fresh meat to walk in his lair..
the ministry, if not the world "owed" it to him.. he was da mogster after all..
I call it predator entitlement.. perpetrator entitlement.
"predator" is too kind of a term. A lion hardly hunts for sport..
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oldiesman
They don't have to debate anyone. They have chosen their faith and religion just like any other U.S. citizen and if they want to engage in that group, that's their business. This is the U.S. of America with freedom of religion. Thank the Lord.
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oldiesman
And what does the Word say if some choose to be ignorant?
It says "let them be ignorant".
Doesn't say to condemn and whine about them continually.
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George Aar
But if one chooses to go that extra mile,
is that so wrong?
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oldiesman
Or even seeking to rescue them from their ignorance.
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Ham
The real scary part of this.. some who were and are in that organization agreed and agree with him..
that he was ENTITLED. It was a service which was OWED. Well, mog to the whole world and all.. deserve a little "compensation" do you not?
loy sits in the chair right next to vic..
and a half dozen more I'm aware of..
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Dot Matrix
Ham
On Montel Williams today, he had girls who were subject to incest. It was said over and over in various ways that they were to keep the secret, placed in FEAR of something bad happening to them if they spoke and CONVINCED by the father/stepfather that using their body to please "him" was their job.
These are very similar statements, people have said here and off the boards, after encounters with sinister Vick.
Finding out about the "inner circle" and put in a position to be involved, I was PRESSURED to keep my mouth shut. When I "spoke out" I was possssessssed.....
Rascal has stated she stayed due to the FEAR they put into her about leaving, as others have stated, and women were told in marriage counseling to engage more in oral sex and it would fix everything.
So, yes it was the steps the predator takes, secrets, stealing the human spirit and replacing it with the spirit of fear, and robbing woman of anything other than the right to be a "penis receptacle."
Tonto:
Again, I think that Mr. Caustic Newbie needs to be confronted --- good for you
One of my first encounters with him he used the word f---ing and tried to intimidate me-- MISTAKE
I am a woman but I do not shake at little boys with BIG mouths and something to prove -- because they are lacking in the real world.
He has been a bully to Rascal, Sunesis and anyone else he tried to engage in a cock fight. But gee, when he gets to the cock fight, he is the only "cock" who showed up! <_<
It's like stop posting and take a viagra or buy a red sports car...
Still proud of you Tonto!!! And anyone else who said enough is enough!
Changed a typo
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Dot Matrix
Oldies
You are right anyone can believe whatever they want to believe. Some people come here out of confusion. It is delivering to discover that BG's class was SO stolen that even "Maggie Muggins and Johnny Jump up" were people BG used in "his" class. Some X-wafers, who were hurt stay in a confusing circle, at times, --- i.e., how could a class by VP deliver me and yet he was so awful? It can be releasing to discover the "red flags" and the feelings to LEAVE were not the devil tricking us to LEAVE -- but God begging (so-to-speak) us to flee a situation that would harm us.
So, yes, people can keep believing Vick was a "saint-of-a-man" (so to speak). OR they can be able to put the pieces together of how a "messenger/teacher" of God could be so perverse.
Simply we learned of a GREAT GOD in a class that a true minister developed, then was stolen by a failing creep who desired power and sex, so there WAS some good -- it was set in the middle of much bad. So, it WAS OKAY with God for us to leave -- and again the nagging little voice prodding us to leave was NOT the devil -- it was the Lord trying to lead us back to him...
I feel the issue, which TONTO has cleared up for us, is the arrogance and the condescending, acrimonious way some new posters have decided to invade us. Just appear on the scene with a belching foul arrogance, where they feel it is "their duty”, or arrogantly their entitlement to come to a community and begin breathing fire, twisting experiences and being inanely rude. That arrogance is very TWI-like, or Craig-like, or devilish, or being socially inept. Take your pick.
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Larry N Moore
The only thing a mog is entitled to is esteem for the labor they do in the Word. Any labor they do which is not is not to be esteemed. It's scary that some/many can't see the difference. Scary, but not surprising.
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