It's a telltale sign someone still has a strong TWI-influence [either directly or via offshoot], when they barge in with a certain belligerent attitude. It has NOTHING to do with their viewpoint – it has everything to do with their attitude. I thought Tonto's choice of words "people who choose to be ignorant" was good – one of the dictionary definitions of "ignorant" is "lacking knowledge or awareness of the thing specified."
I can understand if someone has never been touched by the overt acts of the predator. If they were impressed with the pristine Christian image of vpw presented [either directly by TWI or via offshoot], then they will hold his ministry in high regard.
It hits me as odd though, whenever someone comes here and begins whittling away at folks who have firsthand experience of TWI's dark side – and threads become a let's-turn the tables-around-on-the-TWI-critics game. In my opinion, the person is either a plant [of TWI or offshoot] or they're in denial after hearing some shocking information.
If they are a plant – they have chosen to attack those with experiential knowledge of TWI's dark side. To them I say, "Shame on you !!!!"
If they are merely someone who likes vpw's teachings and fond memories of their sweet TWI experiences – that's okay – I would warn them though – that visiting Grease Spot will more than likely have a negative impact on their thoughts about TWI. That's their choice if they want to risk that.
Grease Spot is not like TWI – where the only attitudes welcomed are the ones favorable to them. Nor is Grease Spot a church where everyone is encouraged to drop all their petty differences and have a group hug with Jesus. I like the atmosphere here because it gets people to think. I like the freedom here. I don't have to agree with someone, and don't have to like someone's belligerent attitude either – I can even say so out loud. I spent 12 years selling a pristine image of vpw to folks – and I'm certainly not interested in whitewashing that image now, because sales are down.
Whew, first of all...thank you dooj and everyone for your posts. Yes dooj, you're right...it was a rant.
When I left twi I left some great people, but I also left behind some jerks. I do my best to avoid jerks in real life. That goes for here at the cafe as well. Sure, I can use the ignore button and I may, but I also have the right to express my annoyance with some people who seem to enjoy making the cafe nasty for everyone.
White Dove, I didn't mean to insult you. I often don't agree with your posts but you seem like a really decent person. There's a bunch of people here at the cafe who I don't agree with but I would welcome you and them into my home. However, there are a few nasty, nasty jerks who spoil the cafe experience for me.
Bullwinkle, I hope you don't leave. You seem like a sweet guy.
Tonto
Sorry been MIA for a few days and trying to catch up.
First thanks but you did not insult me. I was just pointing out that referring to someone as ignorant ,TWIt head, Wierwille worshiper or a variety of other names is just as insulting as saying if you don't agree with me you are possessed is to other people. It's the same all or nothing thinking some people think they have left behind. Not really, they are just coming through the same door from the other side. Some are coming in the door with opinions closer to what we we all experienced in the Way, they see them as scriptural or biblical ( Time will tell if they are or not). And some are coming out of the caf'e door with GreaseSpot opinions which are predominantly not friendly to Way thinking or at times even Christian thinking. Opening the door in and yelling your possessed is no different than opening the door out and yelling your a ignorant TWIt head.
The problem when entering is that many people have a misconception of where they are. They are looking for the blue plate special they have always had, in a cafe that changed the menu. This is not the ROA where all is love and bless you. Much like we all remember each other at times like the younger versions that we once were before we got old, people arriving tend to think of exway people as the way they remember them thinking years ago. It's a bit like seeing someone you knew as a bank president on the street pushing a shopping cart, It's like what happened to you? The other problem is that it is usually one person walking into a full lunch crowd who don't like the blue plate special they are looking for, and have no desire to see it on the menu again anytime soon.
I've been working on "a soft answer turneth away wrath." I've no where near perfected it yet, but I am working on it.
Sometimes people come in here and come across offensive for reasons we don't even begin to know. But if we respond softly, if we give them some room and some time, we may find they are really good people afterall. On the other hand, if we respond in kind, by being offensive, well, it may be our loss in that we may never get to know them, never get to see their softer side, never get to discover what great contributions they may be able to add.
Abigail, folks here would be surprised at how often Tonto has suggested I temper some of my posts for just that reason. Thinking what the newbie may be going through is becoming more of the prevailing process when I draft certain posts [which was expressed in my post # 155]. But I also think the whole Grease Spot experience is a reality check for visitors. I no longer hold to the soft-sell principles used inmy TWI daze – where Dale Carnegie's How to win Friends and Manipulate People was the game plan. I tend to think the honest feedback that the genuine newbie experiences are very helpful in getting them to think.
Abigail, folks here would be surprised at how often Tonto has suggested I temper some of my posts for just that reason. Thinking what the newbie may be going through is becoming more of the prevailing process when I draft certain posts [which was expressed in my post # 155]. But I also think the whole Grease Spot experience is a reality check for visitors. I no longer hold to the soft-sell principles used inmy TWI daze – where Dale Carnegie's How to win Friends and Manipulate People was the game plan. I tend to think the honest feedback that the genuine newbie experiences are very helpful in getting them to think.
T-bone, I have no issue with Tonto. I was simply stating what I was working on, for whoever it might help or in some way benefit. I also realize, as I said earlier and you correctly restated, some of the fighting is a part of the healing process.
I most certainly agree with you regarding honest feedback. But honest feedback can be worded in tactful ways that are meant to help or hurtful ways that are really more an expression of our own anger and frustration. Both can be useful, they just serve different purposes.
I guess, what I have been trying to do in this thread is show both sides of the coin. The healing that comes with the venting and the healing that can come with the soft answer. No absolute rights or wrongs. :)
I would like to add to Abi's last comments, with which I agree. The way I read it, there is an authentic maturity for which Abi seems to be striving, and I think it's a worthy goal for my own life. A "soft answer" is not a rigid "truth," either. What Abi seems to be doing from my POV is to share how she's working with her own heart to engage in the conversation in a way that offers the best chance of success. At the same time, she acknowledges that even a "harsh answer" (if you will -- not her words) can be part of the process of recovery, healing, or development, and even equally beneficial.
TBone's remarks which Abi quoted are also great words for me to take to heart. The sometimes brutal shock of my own experiences on these threads has indeed been a wake-up call for me. Tonto's posts have meant a lot to me in this thread and along with Abi's comments and others, I feel like I'm beginning to understand better the workings of my own heart, and help me toward a sincere and understanding attitude towards others, who are working out their own wholeness.
WW I think you are right, but Tonto is not speaking against diversity, but rather against new people showing up with a bullying attitude.
Tonto:
I think Abi is saying she has found it time in her life, and her walk with God to learn how a soft answer turneth away wrath.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Here is the thing, for her that maybe right, for you it is to take 5 polished stones and a sling shot, as Goliath did not fall by soft spoken words. David RAN to meet the Philistine as the Philistines spewed insults….
So it depends, we all need to find our voice in our battle. Yours may be to RUN to the Philistine defending the multitude who are afraid.
AND I believe it was the RIGHT THING for him/them to hear from her and from you. Perhaps, a soft answer was needed to reach him/her from Abi, AND perhaps a big old SHUT UP was something he/they needed to hear from you. Perhaps, that is why we are a body and have different functions, for the wrong people to be soft with him/them it may become coddling --- For the wrong people to confront him/them it may just seem mean.
Believe me there are many more about to come forward with a big ole shut up while people like Dan have been using a soft answer. Maybe, all of this is needed to reach past a tough leather case to find a child of God who has been hurt --- or needed (doing the right thing) to run a "plant" off if someone were to be placed here by TWI.
David had enough and God energized him to slay the "dragon" It was needed and it was right.
I Samuel 17
34 And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock:
35 and I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him.
36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.
37 David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee.
38 And Saul armed David with his armor, and he put a helmet of brass upon his head; also he armed him with a coat of mail.
39 And David girded his sword upon his armor, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him.
40 And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine.
41 And the Philistine came on and drew near unto David; and the man that bare the shield went before him.
42 And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance.
43 And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.
44 And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
46 This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcasses of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands.
48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.
49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.
50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
You each did the right thing for YOU. And said, what I believe, NEEDED to be said to him/them. And just because Abi was inspired to use a soft answer does not mean that you should not continue to weld the sword. In other words, don't let people tell you how to deal with this just because they are doing something differently -- not that anyone is doing that-- but sometimes things can feel that way.
It gets back to this
Some of the most quoted words of the Bible are from the Book of Ecclesiastes, chapter 3, verses 1-8:
I suspect that some people have spent so much time surrounded by TWI doctrine and habits that they are not able to see that they are bullying--using fear and intimidation to make others comply. Heck fear is negative believing, so they would never use it on others. Huh.
To them, that is the tough love a real man of God, that is taking a stand on the Word, that is protecting the accuracy of the Word.
Such tactics were heard in the twigs, on the tapes, in the pulpit of TWI and were acceptable... so it is still acceptable to them.
GSC folk are the enemies to the truth, in their view. They are here to shut us up, and rescue us from error.
They are here to shut us up, and rescue us from error.
:) And take you where?
I don't think any of the "newbies" I've seen seem to have that agenda. It is, afterall, a discussion board and perhaps there's nothing more to their participation here than wanting to discuss the issues.
Otoh - I may be mistaken but it seems to me the whole point of GS is to "rescue" either current members or former members of TWI from the error that was taught in TWI. So run that by me again: Who has the attitude of others needing to be rescued and I'm here for you?
Why, take us back to PFAL doctrine, Larry. The Truth.
And if they are just here for discussion, then why the aggressive insulting attitudes? Just poor social skills? And where might they have learned that such social skills are acceptable? Where might they have learned to view others with different doctrines/experiences with contempt? Where might they have learned that victims of wrong doers believed for it to happen to them, so the responsibility is not so much the wrong doers as it is the victims?
Perhaps your experience in TWI was somehow protected from such attitudes. I don't know. I and others saw plenty of aggressive, bullying, insulting degrading attitudes in TWI, especially in leadership. So 'scuse us if we think there might, just MIGHT be a connection.
Newbies hitting GSC with venom is not a brand new thing!
Why, take us back to PFAL doctrine, Larry. The Truth.
Well, I understand how you (not you personally) have come to the conclusion that PFAL doctrine is full of (if not entirely) errors. I don't have any beef with that. But you see, I think that when you (not you personally) attack others for believing a doctrine which is erroneous -- How is that any different than how you thought and acted when you were a member of TWI?
And if they are just here for discussion, then why the aggressive insulting attitudes?
As it's already been pointed out -- When you (not you personally) call people twit-heads and other such endearing terms -- why can't you see how people are just reacting to stimuli? I'm not saying it's right but -- that's some of what I see happening.
Perhaps your experience in TWI was somehow protected from such attitudes.
No, I saw such attitudes in TWI and I suppose that's what surprises me when I see the comments made by some longstanding members here -- they really haven't left behind the mindset of some/many of those involved with TWI. It's still alive and thriving here at GS.
That's just how I see it. I'm sure you see it differently.
Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blanket putdowns like this, a one-size-fits-all remark should be challenged. Not only because it seems condescending and smug but also because it may be inaccurate.
I would challenge it, and say that one may be sold out to a ministry AND sold out to Jesus Christ, all at the same time. Look at what the Word says;
Eph 6:5 ¶ Servants, be obedient to them that are [your]masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Eph 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond or free.
You see , one may be a servant of a master (twi) and a servant of the Lord all at the same time.
It all depends on the mindset of the one making the decision.
Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be ignorant.
Blanket putdowns like this, a one-size-fits-all remark should be challenged. Not only because it seems condescending and smug but also because it may be inaccurate.
I would challenge it, and say that one may be sold out to a ministry AND sold out to Jesus Christ, all at the same time. Look at what the Word says;
You see , one may be a servant of a master (twi) and a servant of the Lord all at the same time.
It all depends on the mindset of the one making the decision.
Oldies - She didn't say that EVERYONE in TWI was sold out solely to that ministry only.
She didn't say that she had no time for anyone that was ever part of TWI.
She named a subset. It is that subset of people - those who fit the "rather" category that Tonto referred to in her post.
And NO - your example does not say that a person can serve two masters. That would contradict what Jesus said. It says that the way to serve a "boss" (We aren't slaves here.) is to see your service and loyalty as being included within your service to Christ. (a subset - if you will)
And NO - your example does not say that a person can serve two masters. That would contradict what Jesus said. It says that the way to serve a "boss" (We aren't slaves here.) is to see your service and loyalty as being included within your service to Christ. (a subset - if you will)
Tonto said they were sold out to a ministry "rather than" the Lord. She can't know that unless she knows the heart of a person and the person's own commitment to the Lord. Only God the searcher of hearts knows. That is why it seems like a condecending and smug statement.
Even in twi, one may be intensely committed to both a job and the Lord at the same time, depending on the heart and mindset of the person making the decision.
Tonto said they were sold out to a ministry "rather than" the Lord. She can't know that unless she knows the heart of a person and the person's own commitment to the Lord. Only God the searcher of hearts knows. That is why it seems like a condecending and smug statement.
Even in twi, one may be intensely committed to both a job and the Lord at the same time, depending on the heart and mindset of the person making the decision.
Oldies -
First -she said that she had spent too much of her life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord. Did she say that every person she met during her tenure in TWI fit into that category? NO!
Second-Regarding anyone she encounters now - be it here at GSC or in life; she didn't say WHO was sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord. She merely said that she had no time to waste on those in that category.
Why, take us back to PFAL doctrine, Larry. The Truth.
And if they are just here for discussion, then why the aggressive insulting attitudes? Just poor social skills? And where might they have learned that such social skills are acceptable? Where might they have learned to view others with different doctrines/experiences with contempt? Where might they have learned that victims of wrong doers believed for it to happen to them, so the responsibility is not so much the wrong doers as it is the victims?
Perhaps your experience in TWI was somehow protected from such attitudes. I don't know. I and others saw plenty of aggressive, bullying, insulting degrading attitudes in TWI, especially in leadership. So 'scuse us if we think there might, just MIGHT be a connection.
Newbies hitting GSC with venom is not a brand new thing!
Amen Bramble
And yet "he" keeps proving the point people are making -
Tonto said they were sold out to a ministry "rather than" the Lord. She can't know that unless she knows the heart of a person and the person's own commitment to the Lord. Only God the searcher of hearts knows. That is why it seems like a condecending and smug statement.
Even in twi, one may be intensely committed to both a job and the Lord at the same time, depending on the heart and mindset of the person making the decision.
Is the word "commit" the same as the word " serve"?
Thank you Dot and Dooj and Dan (and all you other spots that don't start with the letter "D") and especially my T-Bone for your support and thoughts and insight.
Geez...it hit me today that this nit-picking of what I said and how I meant it and such from "him" is just another way to intimidate and silence a twi critic. You want to know what I really meant? I'll say it again:
all you newbies who hold vp/pfal dear...welcome to the cafe. Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be ignorant.
I used the term twit-head because I believe if someone leaves twi but never examines the arrogant attitudes that abounded, then the bad parts of twi never left them. It's still there. It's in everything they do.
We were in a cult. VPW was a cult leader. Even if some of us got born again while in the cult, even if some of us started studying the bible while in the cult, even if God delivered us from drugs or alcohol or despair or suicide while in the cult, even if we met some of the most wonderful tender-hearted people the world has seen while we were in the cult, it was still a cult. Is God's deliverance in our lives any less real if we happened to receive it while in a cult? Absolutely not.
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me too, and I KNOW she's younger than I am!
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WordWolf
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WhiteDove
Tonto
Sorry been MIA for a few days and trying to catch up.
First thanks but you did not insult me. I was just pointing out that referring to someone as ignorant ,TWIt head, Wierwille worshiper or a variety of other names is just as insulting as saying if you don't agree with me you are possessed is to other people. It's the same all or nothing thinking some people think they have left behind. Not really, they are just coming through the same door from the other side. Some are coming in the door with opinions closer to what we we all experienced in the Way, they see them as scriptural or biblical ( Time will tell if they are or not). And some are coming out of the caf'e door with GreaseSpot opinions which are predominantly not friendly to Way thinking or at times even Christian thinking. Opening the door in and yelling your possessed is no different than opening the door out and yelling your a ignorant TWIt head.
The problem when entering is that many people have a misconception of where they are. They are looking for the blue plate special they have always had, in a cafe that changed the menu. This is not the ROA where all is love and bless you. Much like we all remember each other at times like the younger versions that we once were before we got old, people arriving tend to think of exway people as the way they remember them thinking years ago. It's a bit like seeing someone you knew as a bank president on the street pushing a shopping cart, It's like what happened to you? The other problem is that it is usually one person walking into a full lunch crowd who don't like the blue plate special they are looking for, and have no desire to see it on the menu again anytime soon.
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T-Bone
Abigail, folks here would be surprised at how often Tonto has suggested I temper some of my posts for just that reason. Thinking what the newbie may be going through is becoming more of the prevailing process when I draft certain posts [which was expressed in my post # 155]. But I also think the whole Grease Spot experience is a reality check for visitors. I no longer hold to the soft-sell principles used in my TWI daze – where Dale Carnegie's How to win Friends and Manipulate People was the game plan. I tend to think the honest feedback that the genuine newbie experiences are very helpful in getting them to think.
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Abigail
T-bone, I have no issue with Tonto. I was simply stating what I was working on, for whoever it might help or in some way benefit. I also realize, as I said earlier and you correctly restated, some of the fighting is a part of the healing process.
I most certainly agree with you regarding honest feedback. But honest feedback can be worded in tactful ways that are meant to help or hurtful ways that are really more an expression of our own anger and frustration. Both can be useful, they just serve different purposes.
I guess, what I have been trying to do in this thread is show both sides of the coin. The healing that comes with the venting and the healing that can come with the soft answer. No absolute rights or wrongs. :)
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anotherDan
I would like to add to Abi's last comments, with which I agree. The way I read it, there is an authentic maturity for which Abi seems to be striving, and I think it's a worthy goal for my own life. A "soft answer" is not a rigid "truth," either. What Abi seems to be doing from my POV is to share how she's working with her own heart to engage in the conversation in a way that offers the best chance of success. At the same time, she acknowledges that even a "harsh answer" (if you will -- not her words) can be part of the process of recovery, healing, or development, and even equally beneficial.
TBone's remarks which Abi quoted are also great words for me to take to heart. The sometimes brutal shock of my own experiences on these threads has indeed been a wake-up call for me. Tonto's posts have meant a lot to me in this thread and along with Abi's comments and others, I feel like I'm beginning to understand better the workings of my own heart, and help me toward a sincere and understanding attitude towards others, who are working out their own wholeness.
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WordWolf
I think the GSC community has benefitted greatly from a DIVERSITY of responses, as each person contributes in his or her
own fashion, with his or her own contributions.
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Dot Matrix
WW I think you are right, but Tonto is not speaking against diversity, but rather against new people showing up with a bullying attitude.
Tonto:
I think Abi is saying she has found it time in her life, and her walk with God to learn how a soft answer turneth away wrath.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Here is the thing, for her that maybe right, for you it is to take 5 polished stones and a sling shot, as Goliath did not fall by soft spoken words. David RAN to meet the Philistine as the Philistines spewed insults….
So it depends, we all need to find our voice in our battle. Yours may be to RUN to the Philistine defending the multitude who are afraid.
AND I believe it was the RIGHT THING for him/them to hear from her and from you. Perhaps, a soft answer was needed to reach him/her from Abi, AND perhaps a big old SHUT UP was something he/they needed to hear from you. Perhaps, that is why we are a body and have different functions, for the wrong people to be soft with him/them it may become coddling --- For the wrong people to confront him/them it may just seem mean.
Believe me there are many more about to come forward with a big ole shut up while people like Dan have been using a soft answer. Maybe, all of this is needed to reach past a tough leather case to find a child of God who has been hurt --- or needed (doing the right thing) to run a "plant" off if someone were to be placed here by TWI.
David had enough and God energized him to slay the "dragon" It was needed and it was right.
I Samuel 17
34 And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock:
35 and I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him.
36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.
37 David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee.
38 And Saul armed David with his armor, and he put a helmet of brass upon his head; also he armed him with a coat of mail.
39 And David girded his sword upon his armor, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him.
40 And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine.
41 And the Philistine came on and drew near unto David; and the man that bare the shield went before him.
42 And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance.
43 And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.
44 And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
46 This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcasses of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands.
48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.
49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.
50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
You each did the right thing for YOU. And said, what I believe, NEEDED to be said to him/them. And just because Abi was inspired to use a soft answer does not mean that you should not continue to weld the sword. In other words, don't let people tell you how to deal with this just because they are doing something differently -- not that anyone is doing that-- but sometimes things can feel that way.
It gets back to this
Some of the most quoted words of the Bible are from the Book of Ecclesiastes, chapter 3, verses 1-8:
“For everything there is a season, and
a time for every matter under heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up
what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to
build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
a time to throw away stones, and a
time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to
refrain from embracing;
a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to
throw away;
a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to
speak;
a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.”
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WordWolf
I was agreeing with Abigail, but not disagreeing with Tonto, if you can picture that.
"Bullying" is not a subset of "contributing" as I see it.
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Bramble
I suspect that some people have spent so much time surrounded by TWI doctrine and habits that they are not able to see that they are bullying--using fear and intimidation to make others comply. Heck fear is negative believing, so they would never use it on others. Huh.
To them, that is the tough love a real man of God, that is taking a stand on the Word, that is protecting the accuracy of the Word.
Such tactics were heard in the twigs, on the tapes, in the pulpit of TWI and were acceptable... so it is still acceptable to them.
GSC folk are the enemies to the truth, in their view. They are here to shut us up, and rescue us from error.
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Larry N Moore
:) And take you where?
I don't think any of the "newbies" I've seen seem to have that agenda. It is, afterall, a discussion board and perhaps there's nothing more to their participation here than wanting to discuss the issues.
Otoh - I may be mistaken but it seems to me the whole point of GS is to "rescue" either current members or former members of TWI from the error that was taught in TWI. So run that by me again: Who has the attitude of others needing to be rescued and I'm here for you?
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Bramble
Why, take us back to PFAL doctrine, Larry. The Truth.
And if they are just here for discussion, then why the aggressive insulting attitudes? Just poor social skills? And where might they have learned that such social skills are acceptable? Where might they have learned to view others with different doctrines/experiences with contempt? Where might they have learned that victims of wrong doers believed for it to happen to them, so the responsibility is not so much the wrong doers as it is the victims?
Perhaps your experience in TWI was somehow protected from such attitudes. I don't know. I and others saw plenty of aggressive, bullying, insulting degrading attitudes in TWI, especially in leadership. So 'scuse us if we think there might, just MIGHT be a connection.
Newbies hitting GSC with venom is not a brand new thing!
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Larry N Moore
Well, I understand how you (not you personally) have come to the conclusion that PFAL doctrine is full of (if not entirely) errors. I don't have any beef with that. But you see, I think that when you (not you personally) attack others for believing a doctrine which is erroneous -- How is that any different than how you thought and acted when you were a member of TWI?
As it's already been pointed out -- When you (not you personally) call people twit-heads and other such endearing terms -- why can't you see how people are just reacting to stimuli? I'm not saying it's right but -- that's some of what I see happening.No, I saw such attitudes in TWI and I suppose that's what surprises me when I see the comments made by some longstanding members here -- they really haven't left behind the mindset of some/many of those involved with TWI. It's still alive and thriving here at GS.
That's just how I see it. I'm sure you see it differently.
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oldiesman
Blanket putdowns like this, a one-size-fits-all remark should be challenged. Not only because it seems condescending and smug but also because it may be inaccurate.
I would challenge it, and say that one may be sold out to a ministry AND sold out to Jesus Christ, all at the same time. Look at what the Word says;
You see , one may be a servant of a master (twi) and a servant of the Lord all at the same time.
It all depends on the mindset of the one making the decision.
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
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doojable
Oldies - She didn't say that EVERYONE in TWI was sold out solely to that ministry only.
She didn't say that she had no time for anyone that was ever part of TWI.
She named a subset. It is that subset of people - those who fit the "rather" category that Tonto referred to in her post.
And NO - your example does not say that a person can serve two masters. That would contradict what Jesus said. It says that the way to serve a "boss" (We aren't slaves here.) is to see your service and loyalty as being included within your service to Christ. (a subset - if you will)
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oldiesman
Tonto said they were sold out to a ministry "rather than" the Lord. She can't know that unless she knows the heart of a person and the person's own commitment to the Lord. Only God the searcher of hearts knows. That is why it seems like a condecending and smug statement.
Even in twi, one may be intensely committed to both a job and the Lord at the same time, depending on the heart and mindset of the person making the decision.
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sirguessalot
language reveals very very very much
which is why the fields of adult ego-development use sentence completion tests
not that we say everything going on inside...but that what we choose to say (and not say) reveals very much
its via the mouth that the "zipper of our heart is open"
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doojable
Oldies -
First -she said that she had spent too much of her life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord. Did she say that every person she met during her tenure in TWI fit into that category? NO!
Second-Regarding anyone she encounters now - be it here at GSC or in life; she didn't say WHO was sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord. She merely said that she had no time to waste on those in that category.
"If the shoe fits..."
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Dot Matrix
Amen Bramble
And yet "he" keeps proving the point people are making -
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waysider
Is the word "commit" the same as the word " serve"?
I'm just askin'--------------
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tonto
Thank you Dot and Dooj and Dan (and all you other spots that don't start with the letter "D") and especially my T-Bone for your support and thoughts and insight.
Geez...it hit me today that this nit-picking of what I said and how I meant it and such from "him" is just another way to intimidate and silence a twi critic. You want to know what I really meant? I'll say it again:
We were in a cult. VPW was a cult leader. Even if some of us got born again while in the cult, even if some of us started studying the bible while in the cult, even if God delivered us from drugs or alcohol or despair or suicide while in the cult, even if we met some of the most wonderful tender-hearted people the world has seen while we were in the cult, it was still a cult. Is God's deliverance in our lives any less real if we happened to receive it while in a cult? Absolutely not.
If that's a slap in the face then so be it.
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doojable
Tonto I wish you'd sign up for therapy... you never say what you really mean...;)
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waysider
Yeah, yeah,
Sure, sure
Uh huh
We were a cult and all that---- but---but--but---
HEY!!!
As cults go, we were the BEST! cult!!!!
( That's why we kept tellin' each other, "You're the BEST!.")
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ex10
Just an observation, but why is it that way-brained men seem to like to pick on women who speak their mind here?
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