I understand where Tonto is comming from as well..My own grown children get annoyed when they see me on GS so often..in thier minds they think I have an attachment to Twi because I come here..hows that for a twist..GS 3-5 yrs ago helped me thru alot pain that I indured from reading stuff here..what I read caused more pain and confusion on top of going thru the 90's..it took alot of reading and filtering to get to a more peaceful place...and alot of prayer and standing naked before God...there was alot more ministering back then as well..
.My own grown children get annoyed when they see me on GS so often..in thier minds they think I have an attachment to Twi because I come here..hows that for a twist..
snip
Forget about the "black fly in your Chardonnay", That's ironic!!
This thread is evidence of the mindset of some who still have waybrain.
Tonto pointed it out and here comes some that don't like it.
Well tough nuggies.
We all are in some kind of way mindset, or have dealt with it.
This is nothing compared to the hatred taught by vpw and twi.
Cman, you know I count you friend, so I hope you don't take offense at what I am going to say.
"waybrain" is simply another form of doctrinal belief. It is a religion. Not much different from any other religion. Some of it is good, some of it is bad. Ultimately, it is what an individual does with it that determins how much is good and how much is bad.
So, it occurs to me, when someone comes along and posts something favorable about TWI doctrine and it makes us angry, perhaps the anger is being misdirected. Perhaps when we call them "waybrained" it is truly our own "waybrain" speaking out.
The idea that we can accept people of all faiths, except those who adhere to PFAL, says a lot to me about our own state of mind. It tells me we too are still processing, we too are still hurting and suffering and out of that hurt we lash out in anger. That is OUR form of waybrain.
Okay, let's try this again...I changed the wording in the opening post so that it reflected something other than TWI. It may still tick folks off - but I thought that this might provide some clarity.
There seems to be a big influx of newbies here at the cafe who still hold Star Trek and Captain Kirk and Spock near and dear. I can't help but think it has something to do with the influx of new Star Trek series and the movies they have inspired. For that matter, whatever Star Trek (Generations, Voyager, or Enterprise) you might have spent the last 20 or so years with isn't that far removed from Star Trek.
I left the cult over 20 years ago and even without having watched a single episode, it has been a long and sometimes painful process coming to grips with the dark underbelly of sci-fi. T-Bone enjoys talking and debating with you Trekkies but I don't. I'll pop in on occasion to have an Irish whiskey with some of the wonderful greasespotters here, but to all you newbies who hold star trek/kirk/spock dear...welcome to the cafe. Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a TV series. Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be trekkies.
The first paragraph:
Welcome to the Cafe - have a beverage. (She's a GREAT hostess BTW )
I know a lot of you love Star Trek - no matter what version you watch - it's all Star Trek.
Second paragraph:
I stopped watching 20 years ago - sometimes it was painful to not watch.
My spouse likes debating with you trekkies - but I don't.
For those of you that still hold the series near and dear - have some food and drink but I already spent too much of my life on this subject. Oh, and God Bless you!
There is no bullying here. Tonto stated her POV and in a way said, "Welcome to the Cafe, I won't be joining you much. Find something good to eat and drink on the menu but most of the conversations about (insert whatever you want here) are on a subject that either bores me or annoys me. I come here to meet my friends and catch up on other matters."
She didn't tell anyone to get lost. She didn't tell anyone to shut up. She only said (in a very vigorous manner) that she would not be participating in the discussions.)
Those of you accusing her of bully tactics may want to reconsider your position. Perhaps you are projecting your own sentiments on Tonto.
OH - I did watch all the Star Trek series - and enjoyed all but the original series.
No Tribbles were harmed in the production of this post.
aDan, I'll tell ya what. If you're really interested in knowing who Larry is I'll invite you to start a thread asking any question you wish to ask me (you can start it by copying and pasting the contents of the post from which I quoted the above). I'll respond therein.
Is aDan really interested in knowing who Larry is? We shall see.
but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.
What is it about this statement that is inflammatory? It implies that anyone who has the audacity to speak anything positive about TWI or some of the leaders of the same were/are mindless followers of a ministry instead of being followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, ask yourself this question: If that is true then pray tell -- Why are we FORMER members of TWI? Could part of the answer to that question be -- Because we that left TWI believe that in fact many things that were happening was not of God and certainly wasn't indicative of being FOLLOWERS of the Lord Jesus Christ? It's insulting to any follower of Jesus Christ to accuse them of being followers of a ministry when (especially when) they no longer are members of TWI.
but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have the advantage of knowing Tonto in real life. This is her real POV of her time in TWI.
What is it about this statement that is inflammatory? It implies that anyone who has the audacity to speak anything positive about TWI or some of the leaders of the same were/are mindless followers of a ministry instead of being followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Funny, that's not what it implied to me. Perhaps that's because I have a more personal perspective on the matter.
I see no evidence that she feels anyone is a "mindless follower." I do however, read a certain level of frustration in her tone. From the little I know about people, something most likely set her off and she needed to get something off her chest.
Now, ask yourself this question: If that is true then pray tell -- Why are we FORMER members of TWI?
Because you left TWI.
Could part of the answer to that question be -- Because we that left TWI believe that in fact many things that were happening was not of God and certainly wasn't indicative of being FOLLOWERS of the Lord Jesus Christ? It's insulting to any follower of Jesus Christ to accuse them of being followers of a ministry when (especially when) they no longer are members of TWI.
It may that is part of the answer for you.
You know the saying, "You can take the boy out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the boy."
You're reasonably intelligent Larry. You and I both know that you don't have to be a member of any group to agree with what they say. I'm not a member of the Portrait Artist's Guild, but I believe it when they tell me to take many more photos than I think I will need to complete a painting.
It's equally insulting for a person who did leave the cult to be told that they are wrong for not believing it's precepts.
I see how the fur can fly. When I left TWI - it was of my own accord, but it also took me a long time to get it out of my thought processes. Everyone has to move at their own speed in whatever process God leads them through. I can't tell you that you need to move faster or slow down, all I can do is tell you where I am in that process and how I got there. I can also refuse to go back.
I have the advantage of knowing Tonto in real life. This is her real POV of her time in TWI.
Funny, that's not what it implied to me. Perhaps that's because I have a more personal perspective on the matter.
I see no evidence that she feels anyone is a "mindless follower." I do however, read a certain level of frustration in her tone. From the little I know about people, something most likely set her off and she needed to get something off her chest.
It may that is part of the answer for you.
You know the saying, "You can take the boy out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the boy."
:) Actually, that's not how the saying goes.
It's equally insulting for a person who did leave the cult to be told that they are wrong for not believing it's precepts.
Have I done that? Please show me where I have.
When I left TWI - it was of my own accord, but it also took me a long time to get it out of my thought processes. Everyone has to move at their own speed in whatever process God leads them through. I can't tell you that you need to move faster or slow down, all I can do is tell you where I am in that process and how I got there. I can also refuse to go back.
Fair enuf. Do you know anything about the psychology of "re-enforcement"? Does re-visiting your past day after day, month after month, year after year really help you move forward? I don't see how but, that's just me.
Dooj, your analogy works here because we are not a website full of Trekkies. If it were posted at a website full of Trekkies it is entirely possible one or two would take offense.
I am not saying Tonto can't or shouldn't express herself any way she wants to, I happen to enjoy both Tonto and T-bone. I'm just wondering why anyone would be surprised if someone takes offense at the choice in some of the words. We all filter things through our own perspectives. It can be very difficult to word things in a way that "give no offense" and some really don't care who they offend (not saying that Tonto doesn't care, just making a general statement).
That is part of what makes this place what it is, and it is a mixed bag. I think most of us find something good here or we wouldn't stay. I'm sure there are things about this place that bother most of us to some degree or another as well.
No you have not. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.
Fair enuf. Do you know anything about the psychology of "re-enforcement"? Does re-visiting your past day after day, month after month, year after year really help you move forward? I don't see how but, that's just me.
I don't know anything about psychology. I'm an artist. I don't re-visit my past all that much. If you think I have, please show me where I have.
I spent 20 years out of TWI before coming here. Ten of those years were spent in re-examining my thought processes, and changing them. I'm a much different woman than you would have met 20 years ago. (Except I was an excellent cook then as well. ) The Apostle Paul spent at least 14 years changing some of his POVs (and yes, I know the community had to trust him again.)
Dooj, your analogy works here because we are not a website full of Trekkies. If it were posted at a website full of Trekkies it is entirely possible one or two would take offense.
I am not saying Tonto can't or shouldn't express herself any way she wants to, I happen to enjoy both Tonto and T-bone. I'm just wondering why anyone would be surprised if someone takes offense at the choice in some of the words. We all filter things through our own perspectives. It can be very difficult to word things in a way that "give no offense" and some really don't care who they offend (not saying that Tonto doesn't care, just making a general statement).
That is part of what makes this place what it is, and it is a mixed bag. I think most of us find something good here or we wouldn't stay. I'm sure there are things about this place that bother most of us to some degree or another as well.
Abi - perhaps it's me - but I saw Tonto's post as a rant. That's all.
I purposely chose Star Trek because I know that there are some real Trekkies here at the Cafe.
I figured if I was mistaken about the post not being all that bad, I'd be soundly corrected - again.
You're right. We all filter things through our own perspectives. Just because I process something you or anyone else says and it ticks me off - that neither makes you a bully or me bull-headed.
Just because you (hypothetically ;)) may say something that angers me - doesn't mean there was intent on your part, though the anger is still there. That's for me to deal with. Hopefully we would both be mature enough to talk it out without resorting to name calling and accusations.
:) Was you hearing it with the left or right side of your brain? ;)
No you have not. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.
I can't argue that point. I'm sure there have been occasions where some dear soul feels compelled to emphatically tell another dear soul that they're wrong. Passionate people do that sometimes.
I don't know anything about psychology. I'm an artist. I don't re-visit my past all that much. If you think I have, please show me where I have.
Welcome to Greasespotcafe!
I spent 20 years out of TWI before coming here. Ten of those years were spent in re-examining my thought processes, and changing them. I'm a much different woman than you would have met 20 years ago. (Except I was an excellent cook then as well. ) The Apostle Paul spent at least 14 years changing some of his POVs (and yes, I know the community had to trust him again.)
There's nothing wrong about examining (or re-examining) your thought processes. I continue to look at my thoughts (and beliefs) to this very day. Some of the things I've seen said here have been helpful in that process. Here's another saying (you can feel free to correct me if I get it wrong :)) -- "You have nothing to fear but, fear itself." Anyone who isn't willing to examine (or have someone else examine) their viewpoints seems a tad bit afraid imo. However, is it "fair game" for you to examine my thought processes and yet not "fair game" for me to examine yours? I don't get offended when it's done to me -- why should you (not you personally) get offended when it's done to you?
You're right. We all filter things through our own perspectives. Just because I process something you or anyone else says and it ticks me off - that neither makes you a bully or me bull-headed.
Just because you (hypothetically ;)) may say something that angers me - doesn't mean there was intent on your part, though the anger is still there. That's for me to deal with. Hopefully we would both be mature enough to talk it out without resorting to name calling and accusations.
Exactly. Some filters might interpret "twit brained" as insulting or even name calling. Just sayin' :)
And while I don't like the name calling and intense anger that I sometimes perceive on threads, that too is part of the process. Even the fighting and arguing can have its "healing" properties. I "found my voice" again here at the cafe and a large part of that process involved being angry and yelling at people here for a time.
Okay, it seems you and I worked this out. (At least I feel like we've come to a meeting of the minds.)
Love you, my dear.
No food was flung. No gravy was spilled (whew! Or else Eyes would have my butt!)
Any gravy spilled would require me to get on all fours and lap it up. I know it would look silly (odd) but I just LOVE gravy! ;)
Happy Birthday, Larry. ;)
What you get me? Biscuits and gravy would be acceptable and received graciously. (Eyes -- keep your cotton-picking "teeth" off dooj -- she's making me biscuits and gravy -- and I might get vicious if you interrupt her. ;))
Is it your birthday, Larry? Darn! I coulda had Lauren bake you a cake! As far as cakes go, Lauren's are the best, but sometimes even they cannot compete with killer biscuits and gravy! Happy birthday, brother!
Exactly. Some filters might interpret "twit brained" as insulting or even name calling. Just sayin' :)
And while I don't like the name calling and intense anger that I sometimes perceive on threads, that too is part of the process. Even the fighting and arguing can have its "healing" properties. I "found my voice" again here at the cafe and a large part of that process involved being angry and yelling at people here for a time.
Abi - come sit at the table and have some coffee with Larry and I.
T-Bone - stop beating Tonto ;) and sit down and join us...
I think it is time for me to move on. I leave GS since it has become so vindictive. Call me thin skinned or call me anything you wish, makes nary a bit of difference to me. I got along fine w/o GS for 21 years and I'll prolly survive just fine in the future. I came to GS to find friends that I lost over the years, and some of them I have. I felt I keen loss when I found out a friend who I loved very dearly had died so I tried to reconnect to others. I have met success in some and total failure in others. But that's life isn't it. I'm sure the healing process will continue here w/o me. Have fun all. I leave you to your petty bickering.
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likeaneagle
THank you Dan!
I understand where Tonto is comming from as well..My own grown children get annoyed when they see me on GS so often..in thier minds they think I have an attachment to Twi because I come here..hows that for a twist..GS 3-5 yrs ago helped me thru alot pain that I indured from reading stuff here..what I read caused more pain and confusion on top of going thru the 90's..it took alot of reading and filtering to get to a more peaceful place...and alot of prayer and standing naked before God...there was alot more ministering back then as well..
Dan thank you for coming to GS!
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waysider
Forget about the "black fly in your Chardonnay", That's ironic!!
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likeaneagle
Your too funny WS..
I feel too that I frequent this site to much..it's addictive.
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Abigail
Cman, you know I count you friend, so I hope you don't take offense at what I am going to say.
"waybrain" is simply another form of doctrinal belief. It is a religion. Not much different from any other religion. Some of it is good, some of it is bad. Ultimately, it is what an individual does with it that determins how much is good and how much is bad.
So, it occurs to me, when someone comes along and posts something favorable about TWI doctrine and it makes us angry, perhaps the anger is being misdirected. Perhaps when we call them "waybrained" it is truly our own "waybrain" speaking out.
The idea that we can accept people of all faiths, except those who adhere to PFAL, says a lot to me about our own state of mind. It tells me we too are still processing, we too are still hurting and suffering and out of that hurt we lash out in anger. That is OUR form of waybrain.
Peace, C!
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cman
No offense taken Abigail. Or from anyone else for that matter.
I'm not speaking out against someone in the way.
But I will say what it is and try to help, if I can.
What the way teaches is not much different then many religions.
Tonto getting flack about what she thinks about our guests is something that ain't right.
And it was about a distinct type of thinking that all the guests may not have.
Whether she is right or wrong was never the issue, but just saying what she thinks is.
And to that end I will be on the freedom to speak your opinion 'rite'.
I don't agree with a lot of things.
But it's this control and manipulate stuff that I will speak against.
There was no need to treat tonto's post as an attack.
And I can say what twi and vpw taught imo as well as those of different opinions.
You may notice that I didn't speak out against some that favor vpw's teachings.
It's the way it's presented that got me to speak of what was said.
I'm not angry at anyone, just speaking my mind.
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doojable
Okay, let's try this again...I changed the wording in the opening post so that it reflected something other than TWI. It may still tick folks off - but I thought that this might provide some clarity.
The first paragraph:
Welcome to the Cafe - have a beverage. (She's a GREAT hostess BTW
)
I know a lot of you love Star Trek - no matter what version you watch - it's all Star Trek.
Second paragraph:
I stopped watching 20 years ago - sometimes it was painful to not watch.
My spouse likes debating with you trekkies - but I don't.
For those of you that still hold the series near and dear - have some food and drink but I already spent too much of my life on this subject. Oh, and God Bless you!
There is no bullying here. Tonto stated her POV and in a way said, "Welcome to the Cafe, I won't be joining you much. Find something good to eat and drink on the menu but most of the conversations about (insert whatever you want here) are on a subject that either bores me or annoys me. I come here to meet my friends and catch up on other matters."
She didn't tell anyone to get lost. She didn't tell anyone to shut up. She only said (in a very vigorous manner) that she would not be participating in the discussions.)
Those of you accusing her of bully tactics may want to reconsider your position. Perhaps you are projecting your own sentiments on Tonto.
OH - I did watch all the Star Trek series - and enjoyed all but the original series.
No Tribbles were harmed in the production of this post. 
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Larry N Moore
aDan, I'll tell ya what. If you're really interested in knowing who Larry is I'll invite you to start a thread asking any question you wish to ask me (you can start it by copying and pasting the contents of the post from which I quoted the above). I'll respond therein.
Is aDan really interested in knowing who Larry is? We shall see.
Enjoy this day!
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Larry N Moore
Ok, if you insist. Consider THIS statement:
What is it about this statement that is inflammatory? It implies that anyone who has the audacity to speak anything positive about TWI or some of the leaders of the same were/are mindless followers of a ministry instead of being followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, ask yourself this question: If that is true then pray tell -- Why are we FORMER members of TWI? Could part of the answer to that question be -- Because we that left TWI believe that in fact many things that were happening was not of God and certainly wasn't indicative of being FOLLOWERS of the Lord Jesus Christ? It's insulting to any follower of Jesus Christ to accuse them of being followers of a ministry when (especially when) they no longer are members of TWI.
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cman
So if you were not insulted then you are not a 'follower of the Lord Jesus Christ' Larry?
It didn't bother me and I am a former member.
And got more then this when I first came to Greasespot.
Why does it bother you so much?
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Larry N Moore
Let me see if Tonto's little trick will work.
*POOF* Cman *POOF*
:)
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doojable
Funny, that's not what it implied to me. Perhaps that's because I have a more personal perspective on the matter.
I see no evidence that she feels anyone is a "mindless follower." I do however, read a certain level of frustration in her tone. From the little I know about people, something most likely set her off and she needed to get something off her chest.
Because you left TWI.
It may that is part of the answer for you.
You know the saying, "You can take the boy out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the boy."
You're reasonably intelligent Larry. You and I both know that you don't have to be a member of any group to agree with what they say. I'm not a member of the Portrait Artist's Guild, but I believe it when they tell me to take many more photos than I think I will need to complete a painting.
It's equally insulting for a person who did leave the cult to be told that they are wrong for not believing it's precepts.
I see how the fur can fly. When I left TWI - it was of my own accord, but it also took me a long time to get it out of my thought processes. Everyone has to move at their own speed in whatever process God leads them through. I can't tell you that you need to move faster or slow down, all I can do is tell you where I am in that process and how I got there. I can also refuse to go back.
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Larry N Moore
Have I done that? Please show me where I have.
Fair enuf. Do you know anything about the psychology of "re-enforcement"? Does re-visiting your past day after day, month after month, year after year really help you move forward? I don't see how but, that's just me.
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Abigail
Dooj, your analogy works here because we are not a website full of Trekkies. If it were posted at a website full of Trekkies it is entirely possible one or two would take offense.
I am not saying Tonto can't or shouldn't express herself any way she wants to, I happen to enjoy both Tonto and T-bone. I'm just wondering why anyone would be surprised if someone takes offense at the choice in some of the words. We all filter things through our own perspectives. It can be very difficult to word things in a way that "give no offense" and some really don't care who they offend (not saying that Tonto doesn't care, just making a general statement).
That is part of what makes this place what it is, and it is a mixed bag. I think most of us find something good here or we wouldn't stay. I'm sure there are things about this place that bother most of us to some degree or another as well.
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doojable
That's the way I heard it...
No you have not. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.I don't know anything about psychology. I'm an artist. I don't re-visit my past all that much. If you think I have, please show me where I have.
I spent 20 years out of TWI before coming here. Ten of those years were spent in re-examining my thought processes, and changing them. I'm a much different woman than you would have met 20 years ago. (Except I was an excellent cook then as well.
) The Apostle Paul spent at least 14 years changing some of his POVs (and yes, I know the community had to trust him again.)
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doojable
Abi - perhaps it's me - but I saw Tonto's post as a rant. That's all.
I purposely chose Star Trek because I know that there are some real Trekkies here at the Cafe.
I figured if I was mistaken about the post not being all that bad, I'd be soundly corrected - again.
You're right. We all filter things through our own perspectives. Just because I process something you or anyone else says and it ticks me off - that neither makes you a bully or me bull-headed.
Just because you (hypothetically ;)) may say something that angers me - doesn't mean there was intent on your part, though the anger is still there. That's for me to deal with. Hopefully we would both be mature enough to talk it out without resorting to name calling and accusations.
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Larry N Moore
:) Was you hearing it with the left or right side of your brain? ;)
I can't argue that point. I'm sure there have been occasions where some dear soul feels compelled to emphatically tell another dear soul that they're wrong. Passionate people do that sometimes.Welcome to Greasespotcafe!
There's nothing wrong about examining (or re-examining) your thought processes. I continue to look at my thoughts (and beliefs) to this very day. Some of the things I've seen said here have been helpful in that process. Here's another saying (you can feel free to correct me if I get it wrong :)) -- "You have nothing to fear but, fear itself." Anyone who isn't willing to examine (or have someone else examine) their viewpoints seems a tad bit afraid imo. However, is it "fair game" for you to examine my thought processes and yet not "fair game" for me to examine yours? I don't get offended when it's done to me -- why should you (not you personally) get offended when it's done to you?
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Abigail
Exactly. Some filters might interpret "twit brained" as insulting or even name calling. Just sayin' :)
And while I don't like the name calling and intense anger that I sometimes perceive on threads, that too is part of the process. Even the fighting and arguing can have its "healing" properties. I "found my voice" again here at the cafe and a large part of that process involved being angry and yelling at people here for a time.
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doojable
Okay, it seems you and I worked this out. (At least I feel like we've come to a meeting of the minds.)
No food was flung. No gravy was spilled (whew! Or else Eyes would have my butt!)
Time to have a cup of coffee. The biscuits are almost ready.
Happy Birthday, Larry. ;)
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T-Bone
The beatings will cease when morale improves.
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Larry N Moore
Love you, my dear.
Any gravy spilled would require me to get on all fours and lap it up. I know it would look silly (odd) but I just LOVE gravy! ;)What you get me? Biscuits and gravy would be acceptable and received graciously. (Eyes -- keep your cotton-picking "teeth" off dooj -- she's making me biscuits and gravy -- and I might get vicious if you interrupt her. ;))
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doojable
I keep telling that to my kids, T-Bone. For some reason they keep laughing.
:biglaugh:
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anotherDan
Is it your birthday, Larry? Darn! I coulda had Lauren bake you a cake!
As far as cakes go, Lauren's are the best, but sometimes even they cannot compete with killer biscuits and gravy! Happy birthday, brother!
Here's that new thread you suggested, bro.
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doojable
Abi - come sit at the table and have some coffee with Larry and I.
T-Bone - stop beating Tonto ;) and sit down and join us...
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bulwinkl
I think it is time for me to move on. I leave GS since it has become so vindictive. Call me thin skinned or call me anything you wish, makes nary a bit of difference to me. I got along fine w/o GS for 21 years and I'll prolly survive just fine in the future. I came to GS to find friends that I lost over the years, and some of them I have. I felt I keen loss when I found out a friend who I loved very dearly had died so I tried to reconnect to others. I have met success in some and total failure in others. But that's life isn't it. I'm sure the healing process will continue here w/o me. Have fun all. I leave you to your petty bickering.
John Coder
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