So many newbies, so many still blinded by vp...

[cman]

It seems to me you're awful eager to hit that "reply" button.

As if there is something wrong with that. But I'm not 'eager', just know what I'm going to say.

Edited September 3, 2007 by cman

[Larry N Moore]

As if there is something wrong with that. But I'm not 'eager', just know what I'm going to say.

If you spent less time "speaking" and a bit more time "listening" perhaps you wouldn't appear so eager to start crap with me. Think about it. :)

[cman]

Well, I guess that answered my question.

What is your question?

What crap is that?

That it 'appears' to be.

[Larry N Moore]

What is your question?

Puhleseeeeeee cman! Take a break. You're just confirming what I'm saying about you.

[cman]

You haven't said anything about me.

You imply and insinuate things that are not there.

Even worse, there are no words from you or me to look at concerning what you say you say about me.

And I'll take a break when I want to take a break.

Not when or because you said to.

Edited September 3, 2007 by cman

[Larry N Moore]

And I'll take a break when I want to take a break. Not when or because you said to.

:) Suit yourself.

[Bramble]

I don't really understand why some stick around here, where they apparently find nothing of value, and all of the posters here lacking--and in some huge clique. I don't see them inviting people publicly to their healing sites or ministies etc. I suspect they are frustrated because they are supposed to have all the answers, but don't. Or maybe they have all the answers and we are not listening to them like we should be?

How insults and put downs encourage healing, I don't know. I guess we are just supposed to remember our TWI training, and then we will heal?

I do understand why some seem so comfortable with insults, put downs etc. In TWI that is how big dogs acted when confronted by those who weren't singing their song. TWI encouraged name calling/labeling, temper toward(spiritual anger) and contempt for those who rejected the doctrine/counsel etc of the MOG/minimog. When I see alot of that I personally consider the person LCM trained.

[doojable]

I'm lost here. :huh:

I heard in Tonto's opening post a bit of frustration that said that there was a mindset that she just didn't have the patience to deal with.

She - Tonto - not everyone here.

Then all of a sudden it seems like a a$$-kicking contest ensued.

Why does it matter who's still in and who's out? Everyone grows at different rates and see different things at different times. I don't have to agree with everyone to be happy and I don't need everyone to think I'm right so that I can feel validated.

This talk of a clicque is getting old. I've heard this tossed around too much.

Geez! I hated High School for this very reason.

If you all don't settle down the Howdy Dance is going to be cancelled...(Said in my very best "mean teacher" voice)

[Abigail]

There seems to be a big influx of newbies here at the cafe who still hold pfal and vp near and dear. I can't help but think it has something to do with the splintering of the nose-spider group. For that matter, whatever offshoot you might have spent the last 20 or so years with isn't that far removed from twi.

I left the cult over 20 years ago and even without having been in an offshoot, it has been a long and sometimes painful process coming to grips with the dark underbelly of twi. T-Bone enjoys talking and debating with you twit-heads but I don't. I'll pop in on occasion to have an Irish whiskey with some of the wonderful greasespotters here, but to all you newbies who hold vp/pfal dear...welcome to the cafe. Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be ignorant.

When I left TWI, my thinking was I was leaving the organization, but I wasn't leaving God. In my mind that meant I was sticking with what I had learned in PFAL, etc. etc. It took me some time to get to the place where I would even consider other POV regarding various verses in the Bible, etc.

There was one person who used to tell me over and over again I was "Way Brained" I found it insulting and offensive and in no way did it encourage me to be more open to hearing what others were saying. I think being called a "twit-head" would have the same effect.

I also think, if someone wants to hold on to what they learned in PFAL, why would anyone really feel the need to "correct" them?

So many people here now have different "religious views." We have numerous denominations of Christianity, Athiests, Agnositics, Jews, pagans, etc. etc. And most of us are respectful of those of different faiths. Why can we not be respectful towards those who still adhere to PFAL?

Adhering to the teachings of PFAL isn't akin to committing the things VPW and LCM did. Many of us at one time believed those teachings and never did what VPW and LCM did.

If there is "error" in PFAL, one might have more success in persuading someone of it, if they communicated respectfully.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Abigail

[WordWolf]

Hmm . . . I suppose the fact that all the newbies who happen to partake of the discussion here also happen to have "gotten out" of TWI years ago has escape your attention.

You've gotten entirely out of twi, but has twi gotten out of you?

I have a difficult time understanding how someone could have gotten out more than 10 or 20 yrs ago and yet still have issues they're dealing with.

That's fair. That's one reason why there's professionals.

I don't mean to be unsympathetic -- but -- either God doesn't exist or you've decided He's not capable of healing your heart. If I recall -- wasn't that one of Jesus' mission -- to heal the broken-hearted?

So either they can "just get over it", or "there is no God."

Nice False Dilemma.

Absolves you of trying to understand the heart of another person, though.

You might thank God that nothing ever happened to you that was so traumatic

you get flashbacks about it a lifetime later.

There's plenty of people who walk this earth who can't say the same.

[Georgio Jessio]

Apparently, you, like so many others can't seem to understand us. That's fair enuf. I have a difficult time understanding how someone could have gotten out more than 10 or 20 yrs ago and yet still have issues they're dealing with. I don't mean to be unsympathetic -- but -- either God doesn't exist or you've decided He's not capable of healing your heart. If I recall -- wasn't that one of Jesus' mission -- to heal the broken-hearted?

Borken hearted? Try just plain broken.

I didn't read the whole thread but if you don't understand how damage from a cult can still be a damaging and stressful part of your life after decades removed from the problmem, then you don't understand what a cult is and how powerful mind control techniques can be. I've been OUT for 20 years and the trauma, while not what it once was, is still there in many subtle ways. It takes many years to come to grips with all of it especially if it was something you ived and breathed 24 hours a day for decades.

It's shell shock. There are plenty of war vets who never recovered and they were only in for a couple of years. Look it up. it's not all that different

[WordWolf]

(snip)

I don't see it as my job to sway anyone over to my doctrinal positions or to correct anyone's bad manners, but I do want to love my "neighbors," even if they're "just" cyber-neighbors, and that's what these "amazing" people do. I could name names, but it's not a clear-cut line between offenders and edifiers. Some people, including myself, may cross over that line, in either direction. It is my job, however, to watch over my own heart to keep it from being hardened. I can't do this by myself, I know. If God Himself doesn't aid me, my heart would be too hard to watch over itself. And He does do this, sometimes through other GSpotters.

An authentic community of people who care about one another and about the truth is going to be like this, where people will have various levels of maturity, empathy, and capacity to love "the unlovable." For me, it's helped in my capacity to observe others, and part of my AHA moments have been in the category of shifting my paradigm from one of trying to "fix" others to actually helping them, if I can. That may seem a small difference, but to me, it's been huge. Sometimes the kindest thing I can come with is to refrain from commenting altogether. Some people need a lot of time and understanding and interaction, and sometimes it seems no one can do anything at the moment, until someone is truly inspired of God.

edit: I hope this reply is OK on this thread, which is directed more to those who "worship a ministry" rather than God, etc.... but it's what got me thinking of hardness of heart. Some people are indeed stuck in a hard-hearted world that was generated or at least promulgated in TWI, and with that comes the doctrine-worship that is disguised as a high regard for the Truth. The Truth is about loving God and loving people, as someone inevitably points out. Sorry for rambling.

Sometimes I don't have to post anything.

[WhiteDove]

The person doesn't like someone's opinion? Well, hey, they must be possessed

Well that door swings both ways as I have observed if a person thinks that someone's opinion "sounds" Way like when in fact it may be just be scriptural then they are TWIT HEADS I don't see much difference there.

T-Bone enjoys talking and debating with you twit-heads but I don't.

Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be ignorant.

How insulting, If you don't agree with me you are ignorant

[Larry N Moore]

When I left TWI, my thinking was I was leaving the organization, but I wasn't leaving God. In my mind that meant I was sticking with what I had learned in PFAL, etc. etc. It took me some time to get to the place where I would even consider other POV regarding various verses in the Bible, etc.

There was one person who used to tell me over and over again I was "Way Brained" I found it insulting and offensive and in no way did it encourage me to be more open to hearing what others were saying. I think being called a "twit-head" would have the same effect.

I also think, if someone wants to hold on to what they learned in PFAL, why would anyone really feel the need to "correct" them?

So many people here now have different "religious views." We have numerous denominations of Christianity, Athiests, Agnositics, Jews, pagans, etc. etc. And most of us are respectful of those of different faiths. Why can we not be respectful towards those who still adhere to PFAL?

Adhering to the teachings of PFAL isn't akin to committing the things VPW and LCM did. Many of us at one time believed those teachings and never did what VPW and LCM did.

If there is "error" in PFAL, one might have more success in persuading someone of it, if they communicated respectfully.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

Abi my respect for you continues to grow. I just wish you would have spoken up earlier and perhaps I wouldn't have clumsily stepped on a few toes (I'm sure the damage won't be permanent though. :))

[Abigail]

Sorry, Larry, I wasn't here earlier. I was up north with Sushi getting the lid to his snooty pan

[cman]

From Wikipedia-

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is sometimes misinterpreted as a synonym of stupidity, and is as thus often taken as an insult.

In many cases ignorance is seen as a pleasant alternative to harsh reality.

Yes I was ignorant in twi. Still am in many things, including some twi stuff.

Calling someone a twit or way-brained can be taken as an insult, and usually is. Untill one sees that they are, then it's not taken as an insult, but considered in respect to what and why one thinks a certain way. Jesus certainly used more cutting terms to wake some people up.

Using those terms with a broad brush may be out of line, but people are human and make mistakes in talking. So do I as we all do. If we could look past that and see the heart of what is being communicated, we might be better for it.

Tonto, I believe is stating what he/she thinks at this time and is subject to change. We all have offended in word and deed of some sort. But we move on and try to be better in order to let ourselves be seen and not be misunderstood. Surely tonto knows that he/she was in the exact same place as those talked about. Which helps in recovering from ignorance.

We were not stupid, just ignorant. I was, as well as the rest of us. Saying that to yourself helps pull us out of it I believe.

The harsh reality of what we were involved in will become clearer as we deal with it in our own ways. Tonto is doing that, though some may be offended. Such is life.

Peace to all, even you Larry. That is certainly needed here to see.

[Abigail]

sure CMan, none of us communicates perfectly. So sometimes some find something offensive. They respond out of that and then the other person responds offensively or defensively and threads like this will follow. :)

[cman]

I believe there is a reason for confessing our faults to each other.

It's just needed sometimes...............

[Abigail]

Wanted to add/point out . . .

Some people were in and out of TWI with few injuries to recover from. Others lost mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, sons, and/or daughters due to their involvement with TWI. Some lost years of their lives. Some lost their faith in God. Some lost their faith in their fellow-man.

Some hurts you don't just "get over." Some hurts take a lot of time to heal from. Some hurts never completely go away, they just sort of fade into the background a bit.

[Ham]

Broken hearted? Try just plain broken.

I agree.

yep. try communicating with parents/children/family/"friends" still in that wretched organization. Or even caught up in the "renewed mind" attitudes..

I think some people don't have a clue..

With the exception of two individuals here, I can't say that I even have friends left from the organization..

the local "twit heads" are either still in, or trying to relive the old memories and attitudes of superiority.

For me, it's not that I'd be wasting my time.. I just don't have anything to work WITH..

[johniam]

quote: but to all you newbies who hold vp/pfal dear...welcome to the cafe. Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be ignorant.

***********

Translation: If you don't agree with me about twi then I'm too cool for you and I don't have time to indulge you.

Hey, works for me! Way to stand up to these bullies, Larry .

[Ham]

With the exception of two individuals here, I can't say that I even have friends left from the organization..

Just to clarify.. I'm not speaking of Greasepot per se..these are two living, breathing human beings in my town.. maybe three.. out of how many from the "good old days", who would even take the time to look me up?

only thing I can say.. thank GOD my kids aren't caught up in the nonsense.. I can only imagine what it is like for families separated with this kind of nonsense.

Some organization..

[anotherDan]

cman:

We were not stupid, just ignorant.

That's debatable! I think I was stupid! :) BTW, Tonto is a "she."

Larry, I've read HUNDREDS of your posts, and I still haven't got you in a box. It would be easy to say that you're not self-revealing, that you simply question and prod and even taunt others, but at other times you are quite self-revealing. In my own relation to you, the sheer volume of the "prodding" and sparring posts clutters the landscape, so that I can't really get a handle on who YOU are, but I suspect that behind that avatar there is someone who really has something to say -- not just someone who snipes at what others say. You've suggested that you can figure people (like bulwinkl) out by reviewing their posts. How would you describe yourself? (Obviously, no review necessary.) I guess what I'm saying is how about an honest statement-of-faith. Just plain talk about how you feel about your TWI experience, and where you've gone from there. Who are you, Larry?

Waysider, your first post (way back there) was outstanding. Thanks for that.

[cman]

This thread is evidence of the mindset of some who still have waybrain.

Tonto pointed it out and here comes some that don't like it.

Well tough nuggies.

We all are in some kind of way mindset, or have dealt with it.

This is nothing compared to the hatred taught by vpw and twi.

[likeaneagle]

I left the cult over 20 years ago and even without having been in an offshoot

I have Tonto, I have visited several..they are all different..Some large and some small..I think from my viewings....they have moved beyond PFAL and more towards ministering..to the needs..nothing wrong with that..I was never forced to go to thier fellowships/abs/take classes..a whole different picture than the TWI I know..

Yet, my learning is more open and conducive to my desires....not someones agenda..big difference